Guest Posted October 26, 2000 Report Share Posted October 26, 2000 In different threads our arguments have culminated in such a way as to point to the psychological and other differences of Hayastantsi vs. Diasporan Armenians. There are also some other differences. Primarily, they are associated with our different perceptions of Armenia, I think. Opening this new thread, following the suggestions of Boghos, and some thoughts by Raffi, I am trying to invite all of us to summarize our differences and similarities, and see if we can come up with a universal understanding. I know that sometimes the discussed issues may be of explosive character, but let's try to stick to the subject and be constructive. P.S. Initially I was thinking of posting this subject in the Life section, but I felt that the discussions would inevitably lead to Politics. [This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 26, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 26, 2000 Report Share Posted October 26, 2000 I think I can sum up the Hayastansi vs. Diaspora tension very simply. First folks, admit there is a tension! Many Armenians deny that there is any conflict, but there is one, like it or not. We have seen it here on this forum, where some have had the audacity to say I hate my heritage and people because I criticize some of the traits I have seen among Hayastansi immigrants here in California. As I see it Diasporan Armenians resent the idea that they are somehow not completely Armenian because they live among odars. This is the attitude we get from people like Artur who call us Westerners etc. We are perhaps, and I say this carefully, more Armenian, because somehow, despite living centuries in an odar's land we have remained Armenian. I have always said how much easier it is to be Hay in Hayastan! Diasporan Armenians sometimes also get the impression that Hayastansis show Hay unity only when it comes time for a handout. I am only recording what I have heard amongst Barskahays and Beirutsis I know. Finally, Diasporan Armenians , perhaps wrongly, view Hayastansis, dare I say it, as being a bit gyughatsi. I know there are many sophisticated, worldly Hayastansis, lord knows wehave many on this Forum (Berj, MJ etc.). But please come to California and compare the dress, tastes, manners etc. of Hayastansis with Barskahays, Beirutsis etc. Then you will know what I am talking about. Now on the flip side, I will try to place myself in the shoes of Hayastansis. They might view Diasporan Armenians as being Armenian only when it is convenient. They probably see us as Oreos (Armenian on the outside, American etc. on the inside, to borrow a slang from Blacks). I think we are also perceived as being a bit full of ourselves, snobbish if you will. I felt this very strongly when I went to Dvin Market in Montebello the other day and ran into a very nice Barskahay lady. We began to speak in Farsi, we both got dagger looks from a Hayastansi older lady, who then chastized us in a half-joking way "Hayek te Barsik?" It was her way of saying you can't have two masters. I think that is how Hayastansis view us, as fence walkers. I also think she felt like we were being snobbish and exclusive. Finally, I am not sure Diasporan Armenians have given, or give the support to Armenia, either financially or otherwise, that Diasporan Jews give to Israel. I suspect we don't, If I am any indication. Please don't jump on me Mos Jan, I am only trying to put the cards on the table, so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 27, 2000 Report Share Posted October 27, 2000 Brave of you MJ. I was thinking of initiating such a topic , however I was skeptical and thought the time is not ripe yet. ( actually I was afraid……)I’ll not deny it , I have many negative feelings towards the Hayastantsis . I am not happy about it and I am trying to overcome any biases and try to see things from a different angle. Most of you are helping me towards this direction. The posting of Steve , mostly covers my views too, so I will not engage in further elaborations. I’ve already shared with you my beliefs and ideas.All the parties involved should look inwards and be honest to themselves first and then to the rest of us.‘You ‘ , ‘Me’ , ‘Him’ doesn’t help. We’ll end up fighting again. I would like however to stress one point. The fact that we are becoming ‘ugly’ to each other in this Forum , means something : We care , we are worried and maybe we’re trying to change things. This forum is something like AA ( Armenians Anonymous ) as someone else nicely described it. So lets use this thread with a constructive attitude and not distractive. There are few things that separate us , but many more that unite us. We are on the same ‘vessel’ called ‘Diaspora’ , and we are facing the same threatening waves called ‘Tsouloum”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 27, 2000 Report Share Posted October 27, 2000 Thanks for bringing up this interesting topic MJ. Steve you did an amazing job in explaining some of the views that exists among Diaspora Armenians. I can’t argue with you that a lot of Hayastantsi are gyughatsi, but the truth of the matter is that most of them come from the lower socio economic status. Being Hayastantsi myself I think I can thoroughly explain and categorize the different waves of Hayastantsi Armenians to California. It can be classified into 4 categories: the ones who arrived before 1988, the immigrants that arrived between 1988-92, and from 92-95, and 95 to present. The ones who came before 1988 were mainly the hayrenadards Armenians to immigrated to Armenia in 1946-47 and had few relatives and connections with Armenia. They were mostly the representatives of Diaspora intelligentsia who were prejudiced harshly in Soviet Armenia. It was relatively easy for them to leave since they had very few ties with Armenia and despised the feeling of an outsider in their own country. The immigrants of 1988-92 were mainly artisans, who adopted the ways of lives of Hayastantsi, yet they felt a lot of prejudism. Most Hayastantsi in Los Angeles’ Armenian Belt (Glendale, Hollywood, etc.) are the immigrants from this wave. A lot of them came from the middle class, yet the majority was from the lower socio economic class. They are extremely traditional people, and it’s hard for many of them to adapt to the life in California. When you were applying to gyughatsi this socio economic class you probably had in your mind. Immigrants from 92-95 were mainly the dissatisfied local intelligentsia who lost most of their life savings in rouble and dram devaluations. With the collapse of the Soviet Union the funding to most of the scientific institutions was cut off and many of thesf people were compelled to immigrate in order to support their families. They are having an easier time in adjusting to the lives in their adopted country, since it’s easier for them to find better paying jobs, yet are still underpaid considering the vast knowledge base they possess. The immigrants that came after 95 and onward are the ones who completely lost their hopes in the future of Armenia. To them Armenia doesn’t exist. They went through so many hardships and are so fed up with the corrupt society that they will never consider going back. These people come mostly from the well off socio economic class. A lot of them had lucrative careers in Soviet nomenclature. I hope my explanation gave some of the member of the forum who are the immigrants that came from Armenia. I tried to generalize and a lot of my assessments just like any other generalizations may not be very accurate, yet it’s a close indication of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 27, 2000 Report Share Posted October 27, 2000 Wow, this thread thus far should be required reading for every Armenian. Amazing stuff, folks! (feel free to skip this one) The underlying assumption is that we are all one people. I think there is a flaw with that assumption. My roots, both geographically and culturally have little in common with Armenians from Yerevan. However, that is not the problem. The main problem is that some Armenians do not have respect for others' "Armenian-ness". My Armenian upbringing and my definition of Armenian are, no doubt, quite different from everyone else here. How many here: Would watch the Brady Bunch and then turn the channel to Armenian Tele-Time? Or try to play Jethro Tull on an oud? Or eat basturma in a tortilla? Or play Armenian card games while camping in Yosemite? Probably none. Very few of us here have a common background and definitions, but in general we all respect and accept each other. I think all of us define "Armenian" based mostly on our grandparents. Some of us even take issue with how our parents, uncles, aunts and cousins handled being Armenian (Rich and I being in that category). My mom is certainly Armenian, just not my kind of Armenian. The strife begins when some stake claim and start saying, "you're not Armenian" based on their own standards. I don't think Armenians already settled in various countries resented newer waves because it reminded them of where they came from. They just were different, hence the judging, prejudices and discrimination began. [This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited October 27, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 27, 2000 Report Share Posted October 27, 2000 Excellent job, gentlemen minor comment(s): alpha (why don't you use your name, dude... it's strange to call you alpha knowing your name..lol), you and I fall into one of the categories you described, but we're off by a year or so in terms of your dates , which is fine; I realize yours were general statements. One difference I've noticed between hayastantsis and others (I think we all understand that we're all generalizing heavily, but nonetheless) is, as Martin pointed out, our different perceptions of Armenia. Hayastantsis are greatly disillusioned with their homeland while others who were perhaps born elsewhere worship it and hold it sacred. Steve, your observation about most of us being "gextsi" is, to my great shame, very true. I don't think the people on this forum are representative at all of what's out there on the streets. Raffi, re: Armenians Anonymous...lol...what a crack up...that's certainly true for me... this is my AA...lol Mike, quite true what you said about different versions of armenian-ness. I think that's the root of all evil in this case; where all our divisiveness comes from. I don't think I have anything of my own to add at this point other than to say that we need to put an end to the prejudices we all hold. Funny example: one of my close gal pals, who's Beirutsi, born here, highly prejudiced against hayastantsis, after heavy Gayane-style indoctrination, lol, is now dating a hayastantsi!!!!!!!!! There's hope for us all...lol Gayane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 27, 2000 Report Share Posted October 27, 2000 quote:Originally posted by Gayane:Funny example: one of my close gal pals, who's Beirutsi, born here, highly prejudiced against hayastantsis, after heavy Gayane-style indoctrination, lol, is now dating a hayastantsi!!!!!!!!! One of my wife's best friends (since first grade) is the daughter of a high profile ARF man. My wife only saw the detrimental effects his militant pro-Armenian views had on his daughter. My wife never thought in a million years she'd marry an Armenian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2000 Report Share Posted October 28, 2000 Steve, I disagree with the "gughatsi" description of Hayastantsis. Sure, as correctly noticed by Alpha, there is compactly residing and significant such segment of Hayastantsi, attributable to certain period of immigration, and probably distinct in the sense that these people have not been able “to make it” neither in Armenia nor in the US. This segment has and would've been considered 'giughatsi' even in Armenia. I think the only reason the Hayastantsis (by in large) are defined by others in this category is that their such presence is very graphic, and noticeable, while the presence of the rest is not. To a very large degree, the Hayastantsi population is much more sophisticated and educated than the majority of other Diasporan communities, I think. Gayane, if I am not mistaken, you have come to the US at the age of 12, isn't it? I think this is why you make such conclusions. You haven't seen the rela Armenia, and the sophistication of Hayastantsis. I am not holding it against you. You haven't had the chance to 'taste' it. In my view, the resolution of this "conflict" may be in the definition of the criterion of our identity. I have returned from a tiresome trip just a while ago. Feel too tired, tonight. Will try to pick up tomorrow [This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 27, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2000 Report Share Posted October 28, 2000 Whoa!!! MJ, the Hayastansis are MORE sophisticated than Diasporan communities? No way! At least say they are about the same. I think of course we have to define "sophistication." Perhaps I am being superficial, but I define "sophistication" as having manners, dressing nice, being well-travelled etc. Now MJ, you are obviously more sophisticated than me! (I mean that, no sarcasm here!) You are an extremely intelligent, obviously well-travelled, classy dude. I bet you even dress nice! But my friend, you are not typical of the Hayastansis I encounter. Each one of my family has horror stories they can tell you about rude, pushy,crass Hayastansis. My cousin just the other day had a run in with an obviously Hayastansi woman who decided she was very special to cut in front of her at Starbucks. Well, my cousin, being the polite person she is, smiled and said "hametsek!" I, of course, am less refined, probably thanks to my down-home American dad, so I would have told her to "gna gorvi!" Of course folks, I hate to break it to you, but we Armenians have this reputation amongst odars. So perhaps this isn't a Hayastansi vs. Diaspora issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2000 Report Share Posted October 28, 2000 quote:Originally posted by MJ:In my view, the resolution of this "conflict" may be in the definition of the criterion of our identity. Amen.Can someone clarify something for me? Is the Hayastantsi vs. Diasporan issue world wide? In decades past was it Beirutsi vs. Diasporan, or Barskahye vs. Diasporan, etc.?Is the current situation unique solely due to a crime rate difference?BTW, MJ what do you do for a living that requires so much travel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2000 Report Share Posted October 28, 2000 Steve, Hayastantis are a very non-homogeneous category. There are huge differences among Hayastantsis. As I have mention in my previous message, those who you categorize as 'giughatsi,' by in large would've been categorized the same way in Armenia. As far as being well-traveled is concerned, it is a matter of money, not culture, I think. I have to disagree with you and say that I am a very typical for my type Hayastantsi. Sure, I think I am different from those who you describe, but I am not unique My past interactions with other former Soviet nations, especially with Baltic nations, have shown that they are much more homogeneous than we are in terms of class differences. The "standard deviation" of their nations around their "mean" is much smaller than ours. (Mike you, being an actuary, know what I mean ). I think it is wrong to compare the better off segments of Diasporan population with the 'welfare dependent' segments of Hayastantsis in terms of the dressing culture. In my view, the absence of dressing culture is characteristic to the American reality, in general. Those who have European exposure, are terrified by the dressing culture of Americans. I am far from denying that very large segments of Hayastantsi population in the US don't have proper manners, attitudes, and so on. What I am trying to say is that the class differences in Armenia have been much wider then in other nations or in Diaspora. The Arabs, Indians and some other nations also have such sharp differences. To the contrary of how I would do it for some other nations, the class differences in Armenia would not be defined by the net worth of the people, but their world view, education, aspiration, etc. Perhaps because by in large, economically everybody in Armenia was on the same level. I think the class differences within Diaspora are defined differently - by economic categories. I think it is wrong to take the John Doe of 'old money' category and compare him with the 'welfare dependent' Hayastantsi, and make conclusions on Hayastantsis. We don't have to compare apples with oranges. With my methodology, the judgements of this type should be done based on the creative genius of the people we are discussing. Look at what have the Hayastantsi been able to create in the area of literature, architecture, sciences, art, etc., and compare it with the Diasporans. Is it anywhere comparable? I think the categories I just mentioned are the measures of the culture of a nation, a state, compactly residing group of people, etc. The social culture is defined more by its economic base. I have met a lot of third generation Armenians in LA (there is a church in Culver City called St. John's, I think). For a couple of years I have taken my children to their Saturday school to have them learn reading Armenian.) I have also met similar people and newer Armenian arrivals from Arab world, around Detroit. Let me be soft and say that I have been terrified by some of them (large numbers) not any less than you are by some Hayastantsis Mike, I have been consultant for certain segments of financial and energy markets for several years, now. Currently trying to change it [This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 28, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2000 Report Share Posted October 28, 2000 quote:Originally posted by MJ:Hayastantis are a very non-homogeneous category. So is it your feeling then that we are only noticing Alpha's "1988-92" wave of immigrants? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2000 Report Share Posted October 28, 2000 quote:Originally posted by MJ:I just join Boghos in urging anyone interested and who can afford it, to visit Armenia for a couple of weeks... An aunt of mine went a year or two ago. She absolutely hated it. In fact, she cut her trip short and traveled to France instead to visit relatives. A week ago, I was talking to my cousin (her daughter) about her mom's experience. We're not exactly sure why she had such a horrible time, since everybody else seems to be telling a different story. This cousin and I would like to go someday, but this whole thing has us confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2000 Report Share Posted October 28, 2000 Oh! That's odd. Why don't you try talking to her about it, try and get her to open up? Is this the first time she went, or did she have a bad experience of it before? Or is she very americanised? Anyway, don't let it influence YOUR descision: remember, what isnt right for her isn't nesscessarliy not right for you or your cous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2000 Report Share Posted October 28, 2000 Who knows, Mike. Maybe something personal, maybe she indeed hated it... Have heard the opposit opinions from many others - people who have grown up looking down at Armenia. Some have told me they have loved every moment of it, except feeling so sorry for the people living in those conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2000 Report Share Posted October 28, 2000 quote:Originally posted by MJ: except feeling so sorry for the people living in those conditions.Mabye that's why she could'nt bear it. Anyway, only she can tell you the real answer, we are only guessing here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2000 Report Share Posted October 28, 2000 You know, I am not saying that you will find the seven wonders of the world, but am suggesting only to go for fact finding purposes - just to understand the people and their psychology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2000 Report Share Posted October 29, 2000 I will e-mail her, get the full story again and report back. One thing I never asked her when she first got back was what she was expecting to see/feel there. It may be a generational thing. Most of the "I felt like I was finally home" stories come from people a generation or two younger than her (she's actually my mom's aunt and was over 70 when she went). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2000 Report Share Posted October 29, 2000 Avtually, it's quite interesting , because my grandfather and other family members went though the same thing. It's quite a long story anyway... I want to email you on this! Have you got an e-mail address? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2000 Report Share Posted October 29, 2000 By in large, I think yes. Maybe Alpha's numbers re a little off here and there, and the list of categories is not complete, but as a matter of principal, yes, I agree with him. This doesn't mean that I am saying that all Hayastantsis in Glendale are from this category. But I think the graphic behavior of the mentioned category is what makes you to notice them. Obviously, I am far from holding you responsible for it. I just join Boghos in urging anyone interested and who can afford it, to visit Armenia for a couple of weeks, even under the current conditions, and to talk to a lot of different people, and understand the ways and means of these people, where does their behavior come from, and what their intellectual and cultural basis is. I can guarantee you that you will see the microcosm of the universe in such a small country, as far as people's mentalities, their intellectual capacity and manners are concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2000 Report Share Posted October 29, 2000 I would like to intervene here, to somehow focus the discussions on the differences of our perceptions of Armenia, Armenian identity, Armenian Culture, etc. What makes us to be Diasporan or Hayastantsi?What makes us to be Armenian?What makes us to consider the Republic of Armenia our homeland and what does disqualify it? What makes us Christians, in particular Armenian Christians and what disqualifies it? Finally where are we headed? What is our purpose as a nation under the sun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2000 Report Share Posted October 29, 2000 quote:Originally posted by Kazza:I want to email you on this! Have you got an e-mail address?Yeah, send yours to gforrey@hotmail.com. That's a fake identity that comes in handy from time to time. I'll then e-mail you my real ones.Anyone else is welcome to as well, especiallly if you want to talk music [This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited October 29, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2000 Report Share Posted October 29, 2000 quote:Originally posted by MJ:What makes us to be Diasporan or Hayastantsi?For many of us that question is obvious. I'd be surprised if more than a handful of my relatives/ancestors had set foot in Yerevan, or what's currently known as Hayastan, in two centuries. quote:What makes us to be Armenian?I hope the key word there is "us". Besides a common problem with turkey and somewhat common arts/culture, are there any other universally bonding traits? quote:What makes us to consider the Republic of Armenia our homeland and what does disqualify it? Based on my answer to the first question, I don't consider it my homeland. But focusing on your use of "our", I'd say because it represents some sort of triumph over the ottoman empire. quote:What makes us Christians, in particular Armenian Christians and what disqualifies it?I think a general sense of materiality and money-grubbing (all waves of Armenian immigrants to the US) goes against Christian ideals. quote:Finally where are we headed? What is our purpose as a nation under the sun? In the US at least, we are headed to the same destination as other ethnic groups. Future generations will get together with a common love of the music, food and dance with politics taking an extreme "back seat". My wife and I recently went to see the Irish Tenors; the Irish there (and there were many) were united under the umbrella of music and heritage. As long as no Orangemen came walking down the aisles, everyone there might as well have been from the same county in Ireland. Maye I have it wrong though, perhaps Protestants weren't in attendance.[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited October 29, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2000 Report Share Posted October 29, 2000 I think the difference between Diasporan and Hayastansi is very obvious, need I spell it out? Ok, I will. We often have strong and perhaps stronger loyalities to our countries of birth. That was a no-brainer. This is what makes Hayastansis angry, as I did one time when I said that I cry every time I see Tehran on the news, someone told me "Some kind of Armenian you are, is it 'farsisteve at Abadan.com?" or something to that effect. What that jerk ( I don't remember who it was, I don't think he or she comes here anymore) doesn't realize is how Armenia is as alien to us, at times, as Tibet might be. I said this once, and I was nearly lynched by MosJan, (Mosjan please don't attack me!) :Armenia is NOT my country. I wish it well, I think I am going to start contributing financially to it (If I can find a good organization). But I have one country of birth and that is Iran, there is no way I can change that. I also have one country that gives me my bread and butter and citizenship and that is the USA. I think Armenia is beautiful, maybe one day I will travel there, but before that I want to go to Iran to visit. You have to understand how much me and my family still miss Iran and love it. I miss the smell of taftoon and lavawsh baking in the little bakeries. I miss the street vendors selling baked sugarbeets and corn on the cob. I miss Fatme, our maid, who spoiled me to death, and bought me a cross, her, a moslem! I miss the hole in the wall Kabob khunes where my dad would take me. I miss the sweet, elaborate manners of the Persians, they aren't the same over here in California (though they sure are more polite than Armenians). I even miss the smelly joobs (the mini canals that run throughout Tehran, lets just say they can double as toilets!) You expect me to have the same feelings for Yerevan, a city I have never seen but in pictures? That, my friend, is the difference between me a Diasporan Armenian (notice I am not bringing up the Half Breed issue, it is not relevant) and you who are from Armenia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2000 Report Share Posted October 29, 2000 Guys, I will not comment on your replies for a while, so that not to derail the discussion. It would be interesting to hear from the rest of the forum. No need to be combatant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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