Hamshentsa

[Aratta-Kingdom]

 

Ayder went from a couple of hotels in the 1980s, to about a dozen in the 1990s, to over 100 now. Who owns them and works in them I wonder? Hemshinli?

 

 

What are you saying "I'ts the economy, stupid"? Let's give the Hamshenahays jobs so they will be quiet? Let's keep Armenia in a blockade so they will cooperate with us? Let's intimidate the others with defense contracts so they will not recognize the Armenian genocide?

 

Wake up an smell the coffee.

 

You have failed!

Edited March 4, 2007 by Aratta-Kingdom

[nairi]

nairi, where you got your quote from?

 

"The Armenian & the Armenian" in Inhale & Exhale.

[Aratta-Kingdom]

nairi, check this out:

 

 

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Saroy...hale_.281936.29

 

 

I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose history is ended, whose wars have all been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, whose literature is unread, whose music is unheard, whose prayers are no longer uttered. Go ahead, destroy this race. Let us say that it is again 1915. There is war in the world. Destroy Armenia. See if you can do it. Send them from their homes into the desert. Let them have neither bread nor water. Burn their houses and their churches. See if the race will not live again when two of them meet in a beer parlor, twenty years after, and laugh, and speak in their tongue. Go ahead, see if you can do anything about it. See if you can stop them from mocking the big ideas of the world, you sons of bitches, a couple of Armenians talking in the world, go ahead and try to destroy them....for when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a new Armenia!

Edited March 4, 2007 by Aratta-Kingdom

[nairi]

nairi, check this out:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Saroy...hale_.281936.29

I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose history is ended, whose wars have all been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, whose literature is unread, whose music is unheard, whose prayers are no longer uttered. Go ahead, destroy this race. Let us say that it is again 1915. There is war in the world. Destroy Armenia. See if you can do it. Send them from their homes into the desert. Let them have neither bread nor water. Burn their houses and their churches. See if the race will not live again when two of them meet in a beer parlor, twenty years after, and laugh, and speak in their tongue. Go ahead, see if you can do anything about it. See if you can stop them from mocking the big ideas of the world, you sons of bitches, a couple of Armenians talking in the world, go ahead and try to destroy them....for when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a new Armenia!

 

What's the edition it was taken from? Mine is from Random House, 1936. The last sentence is missing in my edition, so either it was added by other Armenians, or it was added by Saroyan in a later revision. But which one? that is the question, because I have not been able to find it anywhere else in Saroyan's works, and I don't have all of his works, and no, I don't trust Wikipedia.

[Arpa]

What's the edition it was taken from? Mine is from Random House, 1936. The last sentence is missing in my edition, so either it was added by other Armenians, or it was added by Saroyan in a later revision. But which one? that is the question, because I have not been able to find it anywhere else in Saroyan's works, and I don't have all of his works, and no, I don't trust Wikipedia.

I have not bet many Drams on what that idiot of the 20th c. Hitler, after a couple of schnappes may have said like- ”After all who remembers the Armenian,…. blah, blah, qaqa, poopoo…”

If we should place all our eggs in that idiot’s rotten nest of Nazis.

Neither do I know when and where Old Willy said those words. Could it be at the local bar, ten thousand miles away from the real arena, where he had had one too many glasses of oghi?

Reminds one of the story of this Yankee, at the local Texas “watering spot”, with a bulge at his breast pocket, who, when challenged about his heritage threatened the bartender to kill all their so called Texas longhorns, when that bulge in the breast pocket, a little mouse raised his nose and said; “Yeah! That goes to your cat too!”

If I hear that so called quote by Hitler one more time…. Pardon me for throwing all over the keyboard.. How low can we stoop to invoke the likes of Hitler to redeem us! He still has his hands full trying to assuage and compensate the heirs of the holokost.

How are we going to shame the likes of Enver, Talaat (no posha please!) and Erdogan. Are they not all made of the same fascistic, Nazi shit?

Where is the beef?

Will Hitler come to our rescue, or that drunken bravado by Old Willy?

When and where, which khmaran? After how many shots of oghi did he recite those words. In what drunken stupor?

All those old and haggard cliches have had heir their time, they have been used to an exhaustion.. We need new and improved cliches now.

 

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Arpa, next time do a research before you speak. Hitler's words are even quoted in the Holocause Museum. It's not the armenians who started or speak about the Hitler's quote. Louis P. Lochner of the Associated

Press in Berlin received from an informant a copy of a document, which was based on notes taken by Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of Hitler's military intelligence. Lochner immediately brought the account to the attention of the American and British embassies. He subsequently published the document in translation in his book What About Germany? (New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1942), pp. 1-4.

 

 

 

 

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Nairi, your quote stops at '...destroy them...'. Let me do a research to find out from wich part of the book '...for when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a new Armenia' comes from. Edited March 5, 2007 by Aratta-Kingdom

[Arpa]

Edit out.] Edited March 5, 2007 by Arpa

[Arpa]

Arpa, next time do a research before you speak. Hitler's words are even quoted in the Holocause Museum. It's not the armenians who started or speak about the Hitler's quote. Louis P. Lochner of the Associated

Press in Berlin received from an informant a copy of a document, which was based on notes taken by Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of Hitler's military intelligence. Lochner immediately brought the account to the attention of the American and British embassies. He subsequently published the document in translation in his book What About Germany? (New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1942), pp. 1-4.

WHO THE HELL CARES WHAT THAT SONOFABITCH TURKO-NAZI MAY HAVE SAID!

HOW MUCH GOOD HAS I BROUGHT US?

[Aratta-Kingdom]

WHO THE HELL CARES WHAT THAT SONOFABITCH TURKO-NAZI MAY HAVE SAID!

HOW MUCH GOOD HAS I BROUGHT US?

 

Dude, are you serious? It's about history, it's not about him. It's about how he tried to fustify himself. It's aout how he tried to encourage his generals to do more. You think people from all parts of the world are stupid to spend billions trying to bring the truth out in the open?

 

 

[neko]

Arpa, next time do a research before you speak. Hitler's words are even quoted in the Holocause Museum. It's not the armenians who started or speak about the Hitler's quote. Louis P. Lochner of the Associated

Press in Berlin received from an informant a copy of a document, which was based on notes taken by Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of Hitler's military intelligence. Lochner immediately brought the account to the attention of the American and British embassies. He subsequently published the document in translation in his book What About Germany? (New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1942), pp. 1-4.

No wonder Arpa so often dispairs that people seem unable to learn anything. Even if the same fact is drummed into their head time after time they still want to return to their old falacies. Still believing that the Mamikonians were Chinese is just harmless - however, still believing in non-existent statements by Hitler is a more serious falacy.

Edited March 5, 2007 by neko

[neko]

Nairi, your quote stops at '...destroy them...'. Let me do a research to find out from wich part of the book '...for when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a new Armenia' comes from.

Her implication is that the end bit doesn't come from the book at all, but is just a fabrication. They got away with doing it to Arshile Gorky's "letters", so why not to Saroyan as well.

Edited March 5, 2007 by neko

[Boghos]

Who cares what Hitler said?The historical truth of the AG is independent of Hitler, Mussolini or that other criminal of the worst kind, Stalin (worshipped by some idiotic Armenians).If anything this whole discussion makes potentially serious people look like fools.

The issue almost always is prioritizing.

[Arpa]

We also forget that other quote by the Herr Fuhrer.

Some times ago I read in the book Trial of Adolf Eichmann. When Hitler had all his co-butchers together to categorize the peoples of the world, they were going down the alphabetical list, of course placing the "Aryans" (whoever the "heil Hitler" they may be) at the top and the you know hews at the bottom. To show how much he really knew about us, when they came to the Armenians Hitler asked; “Who are they, some kind of gypsy“?

This whole thing about the said quote is solely directed to a certain people, the victims of the Holocaust, to shame them into submission. And, we can see how it has made an impact, so much so that when they meet an Armenian they turn beet red with shame. Yeah right!

Desperation reduces people to babbling fools. If we would only stick to our irrefutable position and stop arguing with those savages about “ there was, there was not”, “it was, it was not” and tell them to go and read the archives all over the world including the NYT of the era. You never see me arguing with the likes of Zurqaqa. Not because to me it would be like playing with one’s own qaqa but the more we do the more we legitimize their position that the issue is a subject to debate.

 

[Johannes]

We survived

 

We did not survive. Ու՞ր են խնուսցիները, թամզարացիները, ամասիացիները, քղեցիները, արճէշցիները, շաբին կարահիսարցիները, բաբերդցիները, թորդանցիները, երզնկացիները ու՞ր են... չկան:

 

Մենք բախտով, պատահարով փրկուածներու թոռներն ենք:

 

but they have strong sense of belonging to the armenian nation

 

Եթէ խօսքը «թուրքիոյ» արեւմտեան համշէնցիներու մասին է. կը կասկածիմ:

 

Religion, once again, might be part of their lives, but it doesn't define who they truly are. If we were to claim that religion defines who we are, then all the Christian churches must have looked alike. Armenian culture and the sense of identity, be it among the muslim of christian armenians, is unique and different from the others.

 

Կարծում եմ Արդվինի շրջանի մէջ բնակող հայախօս համշէնցիք, պէտք է մնան այնտեղ որ են: Անոնք արժէքաւոր են մեզ համար իրենց բնօրրանին մէջ: Հայ պետութեան անելիքը ասացի. Տեւաբար ներարկել հայ լինելու զգացումը: Այդ զգացումը կը զօրանայ երբ տիրութիւն անես:

 

Jesus never said that life would be fair, because if it were than there would be no test of ones faith in my opinion.

 

Then what his majesty said about the annihilation of an ancient eastern Christian nation and country with its population? Did he said "hey people! you should die, to win the kingdom of heaven''.

 

Կը կարծեմ որ մեր նիւթը հեռուէն թէ մօտէն կապ չունի Յիսուսի հետ: Մենք պետութիւն եւ ազգութիւն վերակերտելու համար Արտաշէսեան մտածողութեան վերադարձն է որ կը խնդրենք: Բան մը եւս աւելացնեմ. Կարծում եմ մարդիկ երբ ասում են՝ «քրիստոնեայ եմ», ուզում են ասել՝ «ես քրիստոնեայ մշակոյթով սնած եմ: Նմանապէս երբ ասում են՝ «մուսուլման եմ», ուզում են ասել՝ «մահմեդական մշակոյթով սնած եմ»: Կրօնները քաղաքականութեան գործիք եւ մշակութային արեւելման իրեր եղած են դարեր շարունակ: Մենք ուզում ենք հասկացնել մարդկանց, որ հերիք է կրօնի համար մարդ սպաննեցիք, եղբայրը եղբօրից բաժանեցիք: Ահա այնտեղ. առավելագոյնը 30000 հայախօս կան, որոնց թերեւս կարենանք համոզել, որ նրանք հայ են: Վատ կը լինի եթէ նրանք վերստին հայանան: Վրացիք այս խնդիրը վաղուց լուծած են, մահմեդական աջարները վրացի համարելով եւ մի ազգի պատկանելը ուղեղներու մէջ վէրջնականապէս տեղաւորելով: Մենք այդքան քաջ չենք եղած, կիսագրագէտ տէրտէրներէն վախենալով: Առայժմ այսքան:

[Johannes]

When we talk about assimilation we naturally talk about Armenians mixing and marrying with (once again the run of the alphabet) Afghanis and Zulus. Nobody talks about the internal “assimilation” of MusaLeratsis intermingling with Martakertsis and Edesatsis (ourfa) with Erevantsis

 

Ես քեզ լաւ կը հասկանամ բարեկամ: Դու տեղայնական չես, ընդհակառակը, սիրտդ սիրով լիքն է՝ հանդէպ հայկեան ժողովուրդին եւ Հայրենիքին: Այդ սէրն է որ քեզ կը վշտացնէ: Կորուստը Հայաստանի գոյնզգոյն մշակոյթին, նահապետական համայնքերին, ինքուրոյն տարազներին, երգերին, բարբառներին, առակներին, վայրերու հետ կապակից զրոյցներին եւայլն:

 

Այդ կորուստը առնուազն հայագիտական գանձ էր:

 

local dialects??

Haw about Loretsis ? Qyavartsis ( Bayazetsi ) And many others ??

it's only in Yerevan that everyone is trying not to use dialects

Այո ճիշտ է, ներկայ Հայաստանի Հանրապետութեան տարածքին բնակած հայը պահեց իր տեղային մշակոյթը: Արփան նկատի ունի պատմական Հայաստանի հայութեան մշակոյթը, որից յուշեր մնացին միայն: Յստակ տարուբերելի է բարբառները. գրական արեւելահայերէնից եւ արեւմտահայերէնից:

 

That's not correct. In the 1980s and 90s tapes of Hemshinli music were freely available, both as commercial releases and as privately recorded or bootleg tapes.

He is talking about music and the language of some songs.If i am not wrong the first time those guys recorded songs in Hemshin dialect of armenian in tc.

Who are they, some kind of gypsy

Տարիներ առաջ հին արհեստաւոր մը կը պատմէր իր կատարած նորոգութեան մասին, թէ ինչպէս զարմացուցած է աւստրիացի (գերմանացի) մասնագէտը (կին), որ իր կարգին ըսած է թէ՝ «թուրքերը ձեզ պէտք էր ոչնչացնէին»: Հիտլերի նմանները չէին կարող չճանաչել հայերին, նրանք պարզապէս անարգում էին, կարգ մը հայերի թխամորթ լինելու պատճառով: Համաշխարհային ոտնագնդակի խաղերի ընթացքին կարգ մը հայեր ծածանեցնում են գերմանիոյ դրօշը, որովհետեւ այդ երկրի ֆուտբոլի խմբի համակիր են: Ու՞ր է ազգային հպարտութիւնը: Այո կը հասկանամ քեզ, փաստելու պէտք չկայ, ոչ ալ այդ խելագարի խօսքի վկայութիւնը: Աշխարհը եթէ ուզէ կը ճանաչի հայոց Եղեռնը: Յետոյ ինչ...դառնանք մեր հին հարցին. Ի՞նչ պիտի տայ մեզ այդ ճանաչումը:

 

[Aratta-Kingdom]

 

 

 

Hitler, Adolf Eichman, Saroyan, Herr Muhrer, Mussolini, Stalin...who is next?

 

WHAT THE HELL THEY HAVE TO DO WITH HAMSHENAHAYS?

Edited March 6, 2007 by Aratta-Kingdom

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Who cares what Hitler said?The historical truth of the AG is independent of Hitler, Mussolini or that other criminal of the worst kind, Stalin (worshipped by some idiotic Armenians).If anything this whole discussion makes potentially serious people look like fools.

The issue almost always is prioritizing.

 

Boghos, do you know any armenian who worshiped Hitler or Mussolini?

 

If the movers and shakers(good or bad) were in some way involved being part of the armenian reality or discussing it, where else you goona talk about them if not here at hyeforum?... But not at the expence of the hayshenahays, of course...i would assume.

 

[Arpa]

Dear AK, I am glad you said it ("off topic"). It seems at times we need a good bop over the head to bring us back to our senses. Blame me for bringing that sonofabitche’s name. My purpose was to show how our entire campaign has deteriorated to cliches and one liners. If I hear that sentence attributed to that butcher of Bavaria again it will once to many. What good has it done to us?

What we also naively and with great patriotism quote Saroyan too. Please read it again, this time pay special attention to the last phrase about , (my words) “ where two Armenians gather they create an Armenia”?. Is that supposed to be something good? It is probably one of the most dangerously destructive sayings ever. Is that why we have two Armenias in the Caucasus, no, make that 4 or 5, not to forget Tiflis and Javakh, three Armenias in Asia Minor, no to forget Hamshen, a dozen in Europe, another dozen in the Middle East, Russia, in South America, and several dozens in North America? If we make Saroyan’s prophecy come to pass pretty soon those natives of the Caucasus will completely move out and start a new Armenia for every two of them.

Look how many times in recorded history we have pulled up stake and moved. Greater Armenia and Lesser… Armenia aside look at when and why Kilikia was founded.

Those who don’t learn from history nobody can teach them.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Arpa

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Her implication is that the end bit doesn't come from the book at all, but is just a fabrication. They got away with doing it to Arshile Gorky's "letters", so why not to Saroyan as well.

 

They? Who are they?

 

 

You didn't answer to my question about hamshenahays.

 

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Arpa, Saroyan is a writer. He has a right to speak his mind. I can bring you examples when he truly betrayed the people who trusted him. That, however, has nothing to do with the purpose why I quoted him. The idea behind it is the following: ...Our minds and our souls are united. We love to live and there is nothing you can do about it... . While quoting him, i tried to prove that the Hamshenayas who still live in their homeland, and the Yerevancis, regardless of religion, are the same people. We are a nation with deep roots into the history. We don't need individuals(with some exceptions, of course) to define us or tell us where the truth is. But to ignore the writers(?), i honestly will never do it. In fact, I'm gonna post the worls of Paruys Sevak who made similar statement about our identity and our love for life.

 

 

We are few but we are called Armenians

We do not put ourselves above anyone

Simply we also admit that we, only we have Mount Ararat

And that it is right here on the clear Sevan

that the sky could make its exact duplicate

Simply David has indeed fought right here

Simply the Narek was written right here

Simply we know how to build from the rock, a monastery

How to make fish from stone, how to make man from clay

To learn to become the student of the beautiful,

the kind, the noble, and the good

 

We are few, but we are called Armenians

We do not put ourselves above anyone

Simply our fortune has just been so different

Simply we have just shed too much blood

Simply in our lives of centuries long

When we were many and when we were strong

Even then we did not oppress any nation

See, centuries have come and centuries have passed

Yet over no one have we become tyrants

If we have enslaved, only with our eyes

And if we have ruled, only with our books

If we have prevailed, only with our talents

And if we have ever oppressed,

it has only been with our wounds

 

Simply with us death had fallen in love

Yet we willingly did not give ourselves

And when we were forced to leave our own land

Where ever we reached, where ever we went

Everywhere we left indelible trace

We have joined efforts for everyone, always

We plowed everywhere, we built bridges, we tied arches

We plowed everywhere and we brought forth crops

We gave everyone mind, proverbs, and songs

Another words we defended them from spiritual coldness

Every where we left our eyes reflection

A peace of our soul and a sacrament from the heart itself

 

 

We are few, truly, but we are Armenians

And by being few we do not succumb

Because it is better to be few in life, then to control life by being many

Because it is better rather to be few, then to be masters by being many

Because it is better to be few, then to be swindlers

We are few, yes, but we are Armenians

And we know how to sigh from yet unhealed wounds

But with a new juice we rejoice and we cheer

We know how to thrust into the foe's side

And how to lend a helping hand to our friend

How to repay goodness which was done to us

by compensating for each one by ten

And the benefit of it just in the sun

We vote with our lives, not only with our hands

Yet if they desire to rule us with force

We know how to smoke and how to quench their fire

And if it is needed to disperse darkness

we can turn into ashes like burning candles

And we know as well how to make love with lust

And we do this always by respecting others

See we do not put ourselves above anyone,

but we know ourselves We are called Armenians

And why should we not feel pride about that

We are, We shall be, and become many

 

[Zartonk]

Hitler, Adolf Eichman, Saroyan, Herr Muhrer, Mussolini, Stalin...who is next?

 

 

WHAT THE HELL THEY HAVE TO DO WITH HAMSHENAHAYS?

 

Hamshen to Hitler. How so did this come to be...?

 

I. also, have never paraded the Saroyan statement. Arpa mentioned the fault of the last sentence, but how about the opening? I understand the sarcastic irony, but it's not pleasant. But again, as Aratta puts it, we as a people read something totally different. Yes are Soul (singular) is one, I just wish our egobrains could be too.

[Arpa]

Arpa, Saroyan is a writer. He has a right to speak his mind. I can bring you examples when he truly betrayed the people who trusted him. That, however, has nothing to do with the purpose why I quoted him. The idea behind it is the following: ...Our minds and our souls...

Yes, I know that poem.

Allow me, just like above to once again play the devil’s advocate. It is too bad that most of us know Sevak only through that poem. He has so many more equally if not more powerful poems, for which he paid with his life.

Yes, our writers, if we were another people we would call them prophets which I have used many times in describing the likes of Raffi. Yes it was our writers and poets, the likes of Kamar Katiba, Mikayel Nalpantian and many more during their lifetime and after whose works, prophesies were instrumental to once again awaken us and give us back our national identity, were it not for them there would not be evn one Armenian left as we had practically become turks just like the Hamshenites. However we must be careful to not take those quotes too far beyond their intended purpose. Just like that quote by Saroyan if we attach too much to that poem by Sevak , it will once again may be taken out of context and will backfire, i.e Even if we know Sevak’s intent “We are few (small but powerful)” may be taken as being few and small is a virtue.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Arpa

[Aratta-Kingdom]

were it not for them there would not be evn one Armenian left as we had practically become turks just like the Hamshenites. However we must be careful to not take those quotes too far beyond their intended purpose. Just like that quote by Saroyan if we attach too much to that poem by Sevak , it will once again may be taken out of context and will backfire, i.e Even if we know Sevak’s intent “We are few (small but powerful)” may be taken as being few and small is a virtue.

 

 

This is where you are wrong. Hamshenahays are not turks. People live with the butchers and still speak of their armenian heritage. Those are proud armenians who happen to be muslims. The turks target them driven out of fear. They know those are talanted people who secretly speak armenian...How much more can you expect from people you live in constant fear...?

 

Look what you just said 'however we must be careful to not take those quotes too far far beyong their intended purpose'. Chapi u @nkalman zgacum@ qo mot karogh e shat tarber lini urishnerinic.

 

Sevak says 'we are few but -but we have a value-we are called armenians'...then he goes on saying this is what made us who we are today.

'If we have enslaved, only with our eyes

And if we have ruled, only with our books

If we have prevailed, only with our talents'.

 

Just like in the old days, armenians in turkey bring their biggest share in building that country. Hamshenahays are no different, and because of that, they are dislike by the turks. But hey, we are who we are...

'And why should we not feel pride about that

We are, We shall be, and become many'

 

 

galis enq haverjutyunic gnum enq haverjutyun

Edited March 6, 2007 by Aratta-Kingdom

[Johannes]

This is where you are wrong. Hamshenahays are not turks

 

Դուն ես որ սխալ ես բարեկամ: Անոնք այնքան թրքացեր են, որքան որ կարող է լինել թուրք մը: Վերեւի մէջբերածդ անուններու մասին չ'ուզեցի ակնարկել, բայց հիմա բաւարար պատճառ կայ. այդ մուրադ կարայալչընը, մի իսկակակն թուրք ներգրաւուել է թուրք խորին պետութեան ծալքի մէջ եւ մասնակցել է թուրք պետութեան կազմակերպած անօրինական ահաբեկութեանց կազմակերպմանը: Դու տուեցիր եւ մեսուտ (երջանիկ) յըլմազի (մնացականեանի) անունը: Իմ արածի նման (անունի թարգմանում) կարող ես հայ կոչել զինք, բայց մոռանում ենք, որ նա թուրքիոյ վարչապետը եղել է: Կարծում ես, որ թուրքերը այնքա՞ն տխմար են, որ մի հային կամ կէս հային թոյլատրեն վարչապետի պաշտօնը: Մենք երբ ասում ենք թէ՝ համշէնահայք հայութեան պէտք է վերադառնան, նկատի ունենք արեւելեան համշէնահայերը. Այդ 30 000-ը որ տակաւին բարբառում է հայերէնի համշէնական գոյնը: Իսկ հեմշիլներու մեծամասնը (արեւմտեան խմբակ), որոնք գնահատւում են մինչեւ 1 միլիոնով՝ թուրքախօս են եւ իրանց համարում են թուրք: Մի մոռանայ որ ենիչերիներն ալ քրիստոնեայի առաեւանգուած երեխաներն էին, բայց նրանք ոսոխմանեան դահճապետութեան յենարանները եւ քրիստոնեայ ազգերու ջարդարարները եղան դարերով: