Hamshentsa

[neko]

This is where you are wrong. Hamshenahays are not turks. People live with the butchers and still speak of their armenian heritage. Those are proud armenians who happen to be muslims. The turks target them driven out of fear. They know those are talanted people who secretly speak armenian...How much more can you expect from people you live in constant fear...?

 

Just like in the old days, armenians in turkey bring their biggest share in building that country. Hamshenahays are no different, and because of that, they are dislike by the turks.

 

 

What are you talking about?

Nobody is "targeting" the Hemshinli, they don't "live in fear", and they are not "disliked by the Turks".

 

[neko]

They? Who are they?

You didn't answer to my question about hamshenahays.

 

I generally don't reply to questions from someone who clearly hasn't got the point. However:

 

Selçuk Güney, a local Hemshinli activist, complains (rightly) of "Ayder's degeneration". But if all those new hotels and businesses in Ayder have Hemshinli owners, and employ local Hemshinli people, then he is going to have an impossible task in getting anywhere with his complaints. On the other hand, if they are all Laz or Muslim Greek or Turk incomers then that will put a completely different light on the problem.

[hosank]

[/size]

 

Դուն ես որ սխալ ես բարեկամ: Անոնք այնքան թրքացեր են, որքան որ կարող է լինել թուրք մը: Վերեւի մէջբերածդ անուններու մասին չ'ուզեցի ակնարկել, բայց հիմա բաւարար պատճառ կայ. այդ մուրադ կարայալչընը, մի իսկակակն թուրք ներգրաւուել է թուրք խորին պետութեան ծալքի մէջ եւ մասնակցել է թուրք պետութեան կազմակերպած անօրինական ահաբեկութեանց կազմակերպմանը: Դու տուեցիր եւ մեսուտ (երջանիկ) յըլմազի (մնացականեանի) անունը: Իմ արածի նման (անունի թարգմանում) կարող ես հայ կոչել զինք, բայց մոռանում ենք, որ նա թուրքիոյ վարչապետը եղել է: Կարծում ես, որ թուրքերը այնքա՞ն տխմար են, որ մի հային կամ կէս հային թոյլատրեն վարչապետի պաշտօնը: Մենք երբ ասում ենք թէ՝ համշէնահայք հայութեան պէտք է վերադառնան, նկատի ունենք արեւելեան համշէնահայերը. Այդ 30 000-ը որ տակաւին բարբառում է հայերէնի համշէնական գոյնը: Իսկ հեմշիլներու մեծամասնը (արեւմտեան խմբակ), որոնք գնահատւում են մինչեւ 1 միլիոնով՝ թուրքախօս են եւ իրանց համարում են թուրք: Մի մոռանայ որ ենիչերիներն ալ քրիստոնեայի առաեւանգուած երեխաներն էին, բայց նրանք ոսոխմանեան դահճապետութեան յենարանները եւ քրիստոնեայ ազգերու ջարդարարները եղան դարերով:

 

johannes, i have to disagree,...the hamshens are not turk, they do not consider themselves turks, and the turks don't consider them as such.. they call them 'ermeni', just like they call us....

 

in my opinion, it is pointless to debate the status, and loyalties of hamshens amongst each other, why don't you ask them what they think?

 

http://www.hamshen.org/forum/

 

i have been a member of this forum for a while now..

 

we must also understand that there are 3 different subgroups of hamshens.

 

2 muslims groups: eastern ..pontic coast(who retain their dialect of armenian), among whom there is a large armenian sentiment, western, who speak turkish, but are not as attached to their armenian brothers

 

last we have a 3rd apostolic christian group. there are large numbers of these in armenia, many in georgia, few in turkey (where they are originally from) and many in russia and turkestan (kazakstan, uzbekistan)

 

point being, they are all somewhat different, with different feelings, you can't just throw them all into one boat.

 

 

[neko]

johannes, i have to disagree,...the hamshens are not turk, they do not consider themselves turks, and the turks don't consider them as such.. they call them 'ermeni', just like they call us....

Where do you get this from? The northern neighbours of the Hemshinli, the Laz, sometimes call the Hemshinli "Ermeni", but (unless a similar situation exists in Hemshinli diaspora settlements around Adapazar) Turks don't generally call the Hemshinli "Ermeni".

Edited March 7, 2007 by neko

[Aratta-Kingdom]

neko, i'll get back to you after i return from vacation. Edited March 8, 2007 by Aratta-Kingdom

[Aratta-Kingdom]

what the heck...i got couple of days before i go. it's better i torture you for a little bit more

[Aratta-Kingdom]

I generally don't reply to questions from someone who clearly hasn't got the point. However:

 

Selçuk Güney, a local Hemshinli activist, complains (rightly) of "Ayder's degeneration". But if all those new hotels and businesses in Ayder have Hemshinli owners, and employ local Hemshinli people, then he is going to have an impossible task in getting anywhere with his complaints. On the other hand, if they are all Laz or Muslim Greek or Turk incomers then that will put a completely different light on the problem.

 

h , that's interesting. So you are saying the businesses in the region are owned by the Hamsenahays?

 

 

 

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Where do you get this from? The northern neighbours of the Hemshinli, the Laz, sometimes call the Hemshinli "Ermeni", but (unless a similar situation exists in Hemshinli diaspora settlements around Adapazar) Turks don't generally call the Hemshinli "Ermeni". ...What are you talking about?

Nobody is "targeting" the Hemshinli, they don't "live in fear", and they are not "disliked by the Turks".

 

 

The turks used the word 'Ermeni' as an insult. Remember the words of Hrant Dink about Turkey's national anthem and a daily oath taken by Turkish schoolchildren in which they say, "Happy is the one who says, 'I am a Turk' ? The man paid with his life for saying 'I don't feel like a Turk, but like an Armenian who is a citizen of Turkey'. You expect us to belive the minorities are not targeted in a country where anyone who speaks of the armenian genocide is labeled 'a traitor'? In a country where people are told to be superior of others, in a country where Mein Kampf has become a bestseller ...in a country none muslims are deprived from a basic right of electing a religious leader without the governments interference, one can hardly speak of minority rights.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Aratta-Kingdom

[neko]

The turks used the word 'Ermeni' as an insult. Remember the words of Hrant Dink about Turkey's national anthem and a daily oath taken by Turkish schoolchildren in which they say, "Happy is the one who says, 'I am a Turk' ? The man paid with his life for saying 'I don't feel like a Turk, but like an Armenian who is a citizen of Turkey'. You expect us to belive the minorities are not targeted in a country where anyone who speaks of the armenian genocide is labeled 'a traitor'? In a country where people are told to be superior of others, in a country where Mein Kampf has become a bestseller ...in a country none muslims are deprived from a basic right of electing a religious leader without the governments interference, one can hardly speak of minority rights.

 

Again you've missed the point. Whether the word "Ermeni" is being used as an insult or not isn't the issue (though I suspect the Laz are mostly using it just as a factual statement - they condsider that the Hemshinli are Armenian in origin).

Most people in Turkey will have never heard of the Hemshinli. 99% of those that have, would call them Hemshinli, and not call them anything else. And of the few that would call them by another ethnic name, most would call them "Laz" (used as a term for anyone from Turkey's Eastern Black Sea region).

As for minorities in Turkey - there are plenty of them that are not targetted at all, it is only if they are percieved as some sort of threat that there are difficulties. The "threat" doesn't have to be real, of course. Turkey is a country that seems to require the constant existance of real or imagined threats. To date, the Hemshinli have not been percived as a "threat". However, thanks to Armenian irredentism they might start to be.

 

 

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Again you've missed the point. Whether the word "Ermeni" is being used as an insult or not isn't the issue (though I suspect the Laz are mostly using it just as a factual statement - they condsider that the Hemshinli are Armenian in origin).

Most people in Turkey will have never heard of the Hemshinli. 99% of those that have, would call them Hemshinli, and not call them anything else. And of the few that would call them by another ethnic name, most would call them "Laz" (used as a term for anyone from Turkey's Eastern Black Sea region).

As for minorities in Turkey - there are plenty of them that are not targetted at all, it is only if they are percieved as some sort of threat that there are difficulties. The "threat" doesn't have to be real, of course. Turkey is a country that seems to require the constant existance of real or imagined threats. To date, the Hemshinli have not been percived as a "threat". However, thanks to Armenian irredentism they might start to be.

 

Just like in the old days, the armenians(Hamshenahays) in turkey control most of the industries, and because they are seen as a threat, the brothers of young turks, the elite of deep state will target them by putting the blame on the armenians.

 

Those with no self-esteme live with 'imagined threats'. Those with no self-estem and a strong sense of fear are aggressive and always target others. Article 301 is a tool in the hands of the people with no self-esteme to target others. If the turks were to have a clear idea about their own identity, they wouldn't have lived in constant fear. Do you see now whose blood is dirty? It's not the bite that kills you...it's the venom in your blood. As much as I respect Hrant Dink, I don't agree with the statement he made about the armenians. Armenians have survived a genocide, Armenians have a culture, an identity. Armenians have survivied the genocide and they are back to fight for justice, for their rights. It's the turks who chase them. It's the turks who hate them. It's the turks who have an identity problem. It's the turks who force others to say 'I'm turk and proud of it'. It's the turks who blame others for insulting turkishness. It's the turks who blame others for being anti-Turkish(and not the ...Armenians, Greeks, Frech, Germans, or even Iranians). It's the turks who slander the world of being anti-(...)(Kemal, turkish,...). It's the turks who fear to lose. It's the turks who want others to live with their rules. It's the turks who want others to be just like the turks. It's the turks who keep close eye on those who are considered potential enemy. By judging from your posts, one gets an impression that you have nothing else to do but to keep record of what the others do. What you do has nothing to do with being informed. Paranoia is the driving force behind your acts. No wonder you spend countless hours at Hyeforum.

 

 

Also, don't bother going back to the question about Hamshenahays being the owners of the hotels. Your instinct might have told you voluenterly not to give out more information..., but you fallen into the second trap...i wonder how much training and money you been given to be part of turkish propaganda machine(?)

Edited March 8, 2007 by Aratta-Kingdom

[Arpa]

Just like in the old days, the armenians(Hamshenahays) in turkey control most of the industries, and because they are seen as a threat, the brothers of young turks, the elite of deep state will target them by put the blame on the armenians.

Dear AK, can you please post here your face to face interview with even one Hamshentsi!!

When was the last time you visited the area?

Are we once again drawing pictures in our heads the way we would like to see things?

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Dear AK, can you please post here your face to face interview with even one Hamshentsi!!

When was the last time you visited the area?

Are we once again drawing pictures in our heads the way we would like to see things?

 

Arpa, I think for most of us who live outside of turkey, the question of Hamshenahays truly is about drawing pictures in our heads...but i know people who come from the reagion and just like neko, they are well informed about the life of Hamsehncis.

 

Qani vor turqiaic durs aprogneris hamar sa nor bacvats harc a, karajarkei amen inch tognenq jamanakin. Hamozvats em jamanaki mej amen inch parz klini.

 

[Arpa]

Arpa, I think for most of us who live outside of turkey, the question of Hamshenahays truly is about drawing pictures in our heads...but i know people who come from the reagion and just like neko, they are well informed about the life of Hamsehncis.

 

Qani vor turqiaic durs aprogneris hamar sa nor bacvats harc a, karajarkei amen inch tognenq jamanakin. Hamozvats em jamanaki mej amen inch parz klini.

It took the Hamshenites hundreds of years of turkification to get where they are today. In the meantime they have never heard the name of Jesus. If we expect that they will all of a sudden wake up repent and decide it is better to be Christian Armenians, show them. If at all a deturkification may take a long time, even if we can show them the virtues of being Christian Armenians. Yet, how will that happen? Where are the so called Thaddeuses and Bartholomews, who by the way lost their lives in the process? Where are those barefoot missionaries from Ejmiatsin and Antelias to go, preach to them and perhaps be martyred in the process. Lighting candles and singing Der Voghormia in our secure churches and conventswill not bring them back Where's the beef!!?? Where are the "Chrsitian Soldiers". Ee Zen Hayer??

I can write tomes about the subject but the above message should be self evident enough.

 

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Arpa jan, ari es harc@ tognenq bac... Yes qo gratsneri mej tramabanutyun em tesnum. Bayc yev im unecats paster@ indz stipum en harcin urish ankyunic motenam. Dem ches yete ays pahi hamar teman pakenq? Der sran kanradarnanq, bayc heto yerb harc@ "khasunana"(patjar ka vor Khasunana bar@ oktagortseci)...

 

 

Edited March 8, 2007 by Aratta-Kingdom

[hosank]

the turks who live around them do call them ermeni btw..im not saying all do...the laz call them ermeni..

infact, some turkish hemshens use the word ermeni as 'drunkard', ironically..

 

the most hamshens that are now muslim have been christian till less then a hundred years ago..jesus is not totalllyyy lost...

 

once again, go on that site, and talk to hamshenis by yourself..

[Armenak]

That forum is very interesting.

 

It seems to be a bizarre dialect of Western Armenian with quite a bit of Turkish influence. Though "As Forumin Masin" is fully Armenian. But "Hamshen'e inch pona? As forume inchi homar a? Vum deia?" is not. I could understand roughly half of that. And I have no idea about the last two words. What could Vum deia mean?

[Arpa]

That forum is very interesting.

 

It seems to be a bizarre dialect of Western Armenian with quite a bit of Turkish influence. Though "As Forumin Masin" is fully Armenian. But "Hamshen'e inch pona? As forume inchi homar a? Vum deia?" is not. I could understand roughly half of that. And I have no idea about the last two words. What could Vum deia mean?

Sireli AK,

Maybe now I understand where the discord is coming from. My comments were mainly about the Hamshentsis in Hamshen proper, and it seems you were talking about the Hamshen diaspora, that is those outside the present day Turkey.

“vum deia”? To me it looks like a hybrid ArmenoTurkish. Vum = oum, vorou. For whom and deia/deyi= hamar, for. Together it seems to means “for whom=vorou hamar“.

Of course, this may not be the proper thread to talk about their language. See thread in Language below.

We have also spoken about the western Armenian “gor/kor” added to verbs, where I have said that it comes from such regional dialects like Sebastia. Look below, ("kdvigu")**. Also note that it interspersed with quite a bit of Turkish.

Himi meg ponime homar shad kuzim xntril tsezi, millet: egek politiki hartserin masin xosink ech as forumin nese. Internetin nese shad edjer gon voydex politiki masin krvadza. Bazi forumin mech al politikan kdvigu, ama mezi bedka or menk ad harcerov mir forume zay enink ech. Menk U.N. chenk or ad hartsere ludzink Eghav?.

.

"Bazi forumin mech al politikan kdvigu"

 

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7573&st=0&

 

I can comment about the language. I will go to the other thread for tat. Suffice it to say that it sounds so much like the dialects of Kilikia, like Marash, Musa Ler, but more so th Zeitun one who also elide their R’s to Y as in “voydex/vortegh/where““, and the A’s turn to O as “gon/gan/there are. Look here;“Internetin nese shad edjer gon voydex” Given that Kiliketsis are supposed to have come from Ani. Is this how Anetsis sopke? We also know that Hamshen is only a few miles from Ani.

 

** See also how they use words as intended. "kdvigu" not "ktnvi" ans "kdvi" ias based on "giut"=knowledge, to know, to find, gtnel.

Edited March 9, 2007 by Arpa

[Zartonk]

Observe this lyric from the Hamshen forum:

 

KUZİM

 

AAKAGE ERTAÇİ

TA KİDİM PEREVADZA

İSA İNÇVES AŞĞARA

EMMEN DAĞ ĞHAREVADZA

 

ERGİKE ELLUŞ KUZİM

ASTAĞKE PERNUŞ KUZİM

LUSNİKAYIN MEÇNAN HED

KEZİ PUTENUŞ KUZİM

 

ERTUŞ KUZİM İSTİ HED

AYE HEDRA ERTAK MEK

MEDOĞUM AŞĞARSİVA

LUSNİKA ELLOĞUK MEK

 

Fascinating form of variation. The title is obviously "I want to", see how many more phrases you can recognize. Do look at

YouTube link of the song as well. You can read along and also hear the Pontic bagpipe and a "Laz" dance in action.

 

And I think this is just Armenian as opposed to Hamshenli:

 

turkiye yi hemsinleri horoni te zez hetaqrqira,mteq youtube, greq srancic meki - hemsin,horon,halay,mani (mani shat qich ka 3 te 4 hat). u hisheq jahelutyun im pes

Edited March 9, 2007 by Zartonk

[Harut]

it's very interesting to see that they use the informal eastern form of the verb to be in 3rd tense...

 

AAKAGE ERTAÇİ

TA KİDİM PEREVADZA

İSA İNÇVES AŞĞARA

EMMEN DAĞ ĞHAREVADZA

 

[Arpa]

Observe this lyric from the Hamshen forum:

 

KUZİM

 

AAKAGE ERTAÇİ

TA KİDİM PEREVADZA

İSA İNÇVES AŞĞARA

EMMEN DAĞ ĞHAREVADZA

 

ERGİKE ELLUŞ KUZİM

ASTAĞKE PERNUŞ KUZİM

LUSNİKAYIN MEÇNAN HED

KEZİ PUTENUŞ KUZİM

 

ERTUŞ KUZİM İSTİ HED

AYE HEDRA ERTAK MEK

MEDOĞUM AŞĞARSİVA

LUSNİKA ELLOĞUK MEK

 

Fascinating form of variation. The title is obviously "I want to", see how many more phrases you can recognize. Do look at

YouTube link of the song as well. You can read along and also hear the Pontic bagpipe and a "Laz" dance in action.

 

And I think this is just Armenian as opposed to Hamshenli:

 

turkiye yi hemsinleri horoni te zez hetaqrqira,mteq youtube, greq srancic meki - hemsin,horon,halay,mani (mani shat qich ka 3 te 4 hat). u hisheq jahelutyun im pes

This is delicious.

I wish it were written in the Mesropian script. It seems it is transliterated using TurkoLatin and Slavic. I can make out some of it, but, I’m sure if it were written with Armenian characters I could decipher more. as it seems to be so close to the Kilikian vernaculars.

QUICK! Someone PLEASE!!!!, record these dialects in writing, audio and video before they become extinct just like, with all the intermarriage (once again note that I am using the run of the alphabet from A to Z) of Aparantsi with Zeituntsi (and everyone in between) and “assimilitaion” diffusion. So that a thousand years from now we will not be as ignorant as we are today as to how the Aparantsi/Ապարան**and Zangezuritsi/Զանգեզուր spoke.

** I spell Aparan/Ապարան the way I do is because Aparan/Ապարան means “palace” as in Simanato’s Ap m@ mokhir Hayreni toun…“Avagh!! Aparanqi m@ mets eyir ou shqegh/Աւաղ ապարանքի*** մը պէս մեծէիր ու շքեղ/Alas! You were grand, and magnificent like a palace”.

*** Ապարանք, plural of Ապարանto mean “palaceS”

 

[Zartonk]

İSA İNÇVES AŞĞARA

EMMEN DAĞ ĞHAREVADZA

 

My absolute favorite, as it rang immediately:

 

Is it not Es inchpes Ashkharha, Amen degh kharnvadza?

 

On the video, the Turkish subtitles end this verse with Karışmış (mixed-up, jumbled, haphazard). I can't get past the way kharnvadz (mixed) has become Gharevadz/խառէվադձ in their pocketed dialect.

 

Also note Ergiqe/երգինք/sky and Astagh/աստղ/astro/star.

Edited March 10, 2007 by Zartonk

[hosank]

yes...

 

i have been talking dialect alot with the hamshens on the forum...you guys should to

[annannimusss]

Arpa,I have to say no matter how much I disagree with you about things,that you are very knowledgeable about the Armenian language.

 

That song,is it in the Hamsheni Armenian dialect,if anyone knows.

[Yervant1]

KUZİM GUZEM

 

AAKAGE ERTAÇİ Arekag@ Chertar

TA KİDİM PEREVADZA Gardzes Pernevadze

İSA İNÇVES AŞĞARA Ays Inch Ashkharhe

EMMEN DAĞ ĞHAREVADZA Amen Degh Kharnevadze

 

ERGİKE ELLUŞ KUZİM Yerginke Ellal Guzem

ASTAĞKE PERNUŞ KUZİM Asdghere Bernel Guzem

LUSNİKAYIN MEÇNAN HED Lusni Metchen

KEZİ PUTENUŞ KUZİM Kez Nayil Guzem

 

ERTUŞ KUZİM İSTİ HED Yertal Guzem Kezi Hed

AYE HEDRA ERTAK MEK Yegour Yertank Miasin

MEDOĞUM AŞĞARSİVA Mood Sev Ashkharin

LUSNİKA ELLOĞUK MEK Lusin Ellank Miasin

 

I did the best I could by using the Turkish subtitles and the original.

[Zartonk]

Nicely done Yervant.

 

Observe this proverb from the forum:

 

Հայվընին էրեսին թկնեցին նա, աստավ` վրայեգ կուկա:

Hayvnin eresin tknecin, astav- vrayeg kuka.

 

Nice little take of our spit/rain saying.