Mesrob Posted April 14, 2001 Report Share Posted April 14, 2001 Is there any repository in the new world that cross references The original name of Turkish cities before the genocide? I just wonder that a city of 5000 Armenians doesn't appear on the map anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted April 15, 2001 Report Share Posted April 15, 2001 Most large cities have not changed their names. There are books in Turkey that list all the "old" names opposite the "new" ones. But it is easy to see just by looking at old and new maps. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 MEsrob jan i was in Yerevan on the april 24th , ther was a nice TV program on tv about Armenian citys in turky , it was one of the best programs that i hev seen , it was about 17 citys , i'l get you some more info soon.Movses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armeniangirl83 Posted May 9, 2001 Report Share Posted May 9, 2001 can you please tell which cities, MosJan?thanx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mesrob Posted July 9, 2001 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2001 Most travelers that came back from the diocesan trip through Turkey were unable to find the villages their elders came from. The local population wasn't particularly helpful unless you were lucky enough to find an old timer that still remembers. I worry that unless we can get them documented the cloud of time will erode all memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Mesrob:Most travelers that came back from the diocesan trip through Turkey were unable to find the villages their elders came from. The local population wasn't particularly helpful unless you were lucky enough to find an old timer that still remembers. I worry that unless we can get them documented the cloud of time will erode all memory.If those travellers had difficulties, then I think it is because of the sort of mass-market tour group they chose to be on. Providing a person has some reasonable idea of the name and location of his/her ancestors village then it is normally easy to find. There is no danger of something as basic as a place name being lost to posterity, even if it is no longer officially in use. What is in danger of being lost is geographical names.Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karine Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 The original name of the cities was in Armenian, or at least -connected to Armenians.I believe this is the main reason why they changed many of the names to turkish. Like Diarbekir = Dikranakert Van is to famous to change, as well as Ani. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted July 18, 2001 Report Share Posted July 18, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Karine:Like Diarbekir = DikranakertActually, Diyarbakir was never called Tigranakert. Tigranakert was a completely different place, further to the east, some of whose Armenian population moved to Diyarbekir but continued ro refer to themselves as being from Tigranakert.Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted July 18, 2001 Report Share Posted July 18, 2001 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:Actually, Diyarbakir was never called Tigranakert. Tigranakert was a completely different place, further to the east, some of whose Armenian population moved to Diyarbekir but continued ro refer to themselves as being from Tigranakert.SteveYup. Rich, you out there? Over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted September 7, 2001 Report Share Posted September 7, 2001 re place names: almost all place-names in turkey wich are along the lines of türkyurdu, öztürk, horasan, güzelyurt, etc. are obviously new coinages. a friend of mine from erzincan had once told me that her hometown's name was changed to gülbahçe "rose garden" from the original "stemi" which was armenian. also, many place names that still exist do actually derive from pre-turkic languages, but are corrupted due to a change in pronunciation. examples are bayburt (papert), ağlasun (from greek sagalassos or sagalasson, and sounds very much like turkish "let him cry"), geyre (from original caria of antiquity), all names ending in -girt (kert) like malazgirt, mazgirt, etc. in addition, eastern anatolia is still full of villages that are called "venk" or "vank", and tatvan of van lake fame meant "foot of van" in the local armenian dialect. even if they change the names, the population tends to remember them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted September 7, 2001 Report Share Posted September 7, 2001 the original name of van was "tushpa" in urartu times. now since both urartian and hurrian were caucasian languages - like georgian, laz, circassian etc. - and not indo-european, this name is not armenian. but the current name "van" seems to me very similar to "venk, vank" in modern armenian which i understand means "village" (there are dozens of villages so named in eastern anatolia. could anyone clarify what "van" meant and what language it came from, please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted September 16, 2001 Report Share Posted September 16, 2001 According to a Turkish publication (i.e. this explanation should not be automatically believed), the Urartians called themselves "Bianeli" this gradually changed to "Biane", which gradually evolved into the name "Van". NB: the correct pronunciation of Van is Wan - but there is no "w" in Turkish, so the V pronounciation is used in official circles. Same for Acht'amar - the official spelling and pronounciation is Akdamar. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 it is Akhtamar in Armenian. if i'm not mistaken, Urartian was Semitic language. it is correct(as far as i know) that they called their county "Biaynilli", and their capital "Tushpa". again as far as i know, the name Van originated in 7-6 BC when Indo-European languages started to domitate in the region.and already at the time of Yervandians(one of the first true Armenian dynasties) it was popularly known as Van. the word "vank" is now mainly used as the word "yekeghetsi"(church).it is true that it is part of many city/villege names in Armenian. but i don't know whether it comes from the word "van" or it means villege. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Harut:it is Akhtamar in Armenian."Acht'amar" is closest to the correct pronounciation - "ch" is sort of like the Scottish "loch", and with the "t" sounded out distinct and separate from the following "a"."Aghtamar" is an alternative spelling that is often found, "Akhtamar" is wrong - there is no "k" sound.Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted September 17, 2001 Report Share Posted September 17, 2001 what language do you suppose Akhtamar is in?what's the origin of the word? it's not sound "k", it's "kh". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted September 18, 2001 Report Share Posted September 18, 2001 harut, urartian (and its relation hurrian) are neither indo-european nor semitic. they are not that well understood, in fact, but what has been understood tells us that if they had any relatives, these must be the present day caucasian languages like georgian, cherkess, laz, mingrel, chechen, etc. they are a problem temselves when sorting out family ties. regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted September 18, 2001 Report Share Posted September 18, 2001 i had heard in turkey - and read in at least one enhglish publication - the origin of the name "akhtamar". there was an armenian colony or convent on the island, and the daughter of the head of the convent was called tamara (tamar). she fell in love with a turkish shepherd from one of the villages on the shore. the shepherd used to visit her at nighttime for fear of the father by swimming across lake van, while she would hold a lantern to guide him to the shore. then the father discovered what was going on... he locked up the girl in the cloister, and went to the shore at night with a handful of men with lanterns in their hands. they lit the lanterns now here, then there, causing the poor shepherd to swim in every conceivable direction before he finally got exhausted and drowned. his last words were "akh tamara, akh tamara" as he was drowning. now i would believe this to be a fabrication by the turkish government, had i not heard it from the locals and read it in at least one english publication by an english lady called diana darke: guide to eastern turkey. perhaps steve could shed some light on it. regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted September 18, 2001 Report Share Posted September 18, 2001 Ali, are you sure it is a Turkish shepherd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted September 19, 2001 Report Share Posted September 19, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Harut:what language do you suppose Akhtamar is in?what's the origin of the word?it's not sound "k", it's "kh".That's correct - but the way you are spelling it, an unsuspecting reader would pronounce it as "k" - which is why I think the first two spellings are better, they are more likely to lead to the proper pronounciation, imho!Actually, the standard "academic" spelling/transliteration is different from any of these versions - and I cannot reproduce it here because the letters are not reproducable over the internet! The "ch" is represented by an "L" with a line across it at 80 degrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted September 19, 2001 Report Share Posted September 19, 2001 quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:i had heard in turkey - and read in at least one enhglish publication - the origin of the name "akhtamar". there was an armenian colony or convent on the island, and the daughter of the head of the convent was called tamara (tamar). she fell in love with a turkish shepherd from one of the villages on the shore. the shepherd used to visit her at nighttime for fear of the father by swimming across lake van, while she would hold a lantern to guide him to the shore. then the father discovered what was going on... he locked up the girl in the cloister, and went to the shore at night with a handful of men with lanterns in their hands. they lit the lanterns now here, then there, causing the poor shepherd to swim in every conceivable direction before he finally got exhausted and drowned. his last words were "akh tamara, akh tamara" as he was drowning. now i would believe this to be a fabrication by the turkish government, had i not heard it from the locals and read it in at least one english publication by an english lady called diana darke: guide to eastern turkey. perhaps steve could shed some light on it.regards,I think this story is not of great antiquity, and is probably from the 18th century, when the original meaning of the name was lost (if indeed it was ever known). Your version distorts the original story a bit (well, a lot actually) eg. bishops could not marry, so they would not have had daughters - none they would admit to anyway! - and the man drowns in a storm in the original story.It was written down as a poem in the 19th century - there was a posting about it in the poetry section a long while ago. There is also an English version around - it (the English version anyway) is very bad poetry!Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted September 20, 2001 Report Share Posted September 20, 2001 steve the distortion was not intended, and i myself was aware there was something funny about a member of clergy having a daughter. anyway, do the armenians originally from vann know anything about it? regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted September 20, 2001 Report Share Posted September 20, 2001 this is the poem you are talking about. web page it was written by one of the greatest Armenian writers, Hovhannes Toumanian.but in the poem he doesn't mantion anything about storm or preast.if you read it, it's acctually refering them as regular people.if you need the translation i'll do it to my best. btw, what does Alaverdi mean???it's a city in Armenia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted September 20, 2001 Report Share Posted September 20, 2001 It already exists in an English translation - I have a copy somewhere, and will try to find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted September 21, 2001 Report Share Posted September 21, 2001 quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:stevethe distortion was not intended, and i myself was aware there was something funny about a member of clergy having a daughter. anyway, do the armenians originally from vann know anything about it?regards,Sorry, I had not intended to suggest that - and I see that "your" version is the one in Diana Darke's rather amateurish little guidebook (I have the first edition - maybe it is better in later editions). The version of the story told to me by locals in Van does not mention anything about priests, but does mention the storm. I'll try and find an English copy of the poem and post it. Or perhaps someone else here can post it?Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted September 21, 2001 Report Share Posted September 21, 2001 dear harut "alaverdi" means "god gave" in turkish. the most correct form would be "allahverdi", but some dialects from the eastern provinces and azebaijan pronounce "allah" as "ala" (so do little children in turkey). this is a very common name, and exists in numerous varieties in many languages. the name "baghdad" (iraqi capital) also means the same. so do the slavonic name "bogdan", the greek name "theodoros", and a good few others. i hope this helps. regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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