Taulum/Udzatsum

[Arpa]

This is not the first time the word "assimilation" has been used on this forum. Some people use it as if it is a stroke of genius, as if they have created it. However it is obvious that some of us don't know the true meaning of the word.

I looked it up, there really is not one single word in the Armenian to convet the truw meaning of the word. One dictionary explains it as "nmanatsum", to identify, to emulate. The I looked up "alienation", some translate it as "otaratsum".

Thera are two other words in the Armenian. One is "tsulum", to melt, to mix, i.e to assimilate and the other is "udzatsum" which coveys the idea of "alienation" more correctly.

 

I wish I could remember more of the text of this old song.

I have it written somewhere but regardless, the following lines suffice to

convey the message.

Looseley translated;

"You are a smart and astute merchant,

They say you have much money and property,

But if Haysatan can't from your money,

We spit on you and your money."

"Du kheloq hashvov vajarakan es,

Mulk pogh u apranq kasen shat unes,

Bayts te poghed shah chuni Hayastan

Tqel qo el poghit el vran."

The following verses allude to intellectuals, poets and other luminaries. The spirit is the same.

 

Rubo writes; July 28, 2002 Forum; Other

There are types of Armenians who are totally covered in the mud of assimilation that the only difference to the rest of humanity is their “ian “ending on their last names. To these Armenians anything that seriously does concern about our affairs falls in the category of bland relativism. What annoys these particular types of Armenians the most when others point out the symptoms of their own assimilation? I do not care if one prefers games to politics or computers

for that matter but what is disturbing when they try to silence and obstruct the people who do genuinely care. Can't drive? stay out of the road!

I think it was Azat who kind of put the record straight when he invoked all those so called "assimilated Armenians" who are the main contributors to our cause, be it finanacially, politically and socially.

There may be many examples but let us take one "assiimilated Armenian" and see what it really means.

KIRK KERKORAIN!

He is probably the legendary "assimilated Armenian". I bet you he can't even write his name in Armenian.

HE IS ASSIMILATED.

Nowe let us see which so called "non-assilated Armenian" has done more for our cause and our welfare?

Yes, There was a time when he and his ilk (you name them, Charles Aznavour comes to mind) were truly alienated/udzatsats. With good reason too. They were sick and tired of all the insults like; What kind of Armenian are they? "They don't sing in Armenian, they don't mix inArmenian crowds, they even, at times deny their heritage". What heritage?!! A people who don't even know who they are? A people who are not even a NATION? A people who identify themselves by denomiantion? Which Denomiantion? Apostoilic, Catholic or protestant? A people who identify themselves a a faction(so called political partie)? Which faction? Hnchak,Dashnak or Ramkavar? Is not that enough to want to crawl under the closest rock?

 

And now, now that the Armenian is on its way to become a nation, not a denomiantion, not a faction, not the laughing stock of thr world, all those "assimilated Armenians" are coming out of the woodwork and putting their shoulders to the task.

 

If we keep to label them "assimilated", less than an Armenian, some kind of a defective Armenian because they cannot speak the language or they could not care about the Jews and the Turks.

Guess what? They can very easily hold back their financial and moral support ans let the "non-assimilated" ones do the job.

 

Go ahead! Who is stopping you??!!

 

If words could only be eaten, fill one's stomach!!.

Yete khosq@ miyayn por kshtatnzer!!

 

Tsulvats? Udzatsyal?

 

Tqel en qo el poghid el vran???

 

He tqels best who tqels last!!!

[Sip]

I for one haven't really found the definition of what it means to be Armenian, let alone try to define the "assimilated", "dzulvats" etc etc versions.

 

My problem, coming from a background in a science where everything is EXACT, is that I don't think there is an exact definition of what it means to be "Armenian".

 

The cleanest definition I have is a recursive one. You are Armenian if both your parents are Armenian. But I don't think this definition works too well in reality as most people I see define it differently.

 

.

 

[ August 02, 2002, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Harut]

yes, we all will "tqel paytikin" if those "assimilated" Armenians stop supporting Armenians.

[MJ]

I think it is an interesting topic.

 

In my view, there are significant misperceptions surrounding this issue.

 

It is a fact throughout the history (without even having much academic information we can make judgments about it just digesting the number of the Armenians around the world when trying to visualize it in the context of the last 12 hundred years) that what Armenians do most successfully and easily is the assimilation. In my view, it is a testimony on the lack of strong identity or on a confused identity. I think this process has started when the Armenian Orthodox Church has usurped the “ownership” of Armenian identity, and it still continues in some very significant chunks of the people of Armenian ethnicity.

 

However, frequently, I think the label itself is self-distracting. What means an Armenian, after all, as correctly Sip asks? If we where to define it through the genetics or the “blood content,” a couple of arguments later it would lead to controversy. We sure can articulate it through the category of consciousness, which I think is more appropriate, but the consciousness also evolves, unless we are dealing with some “eashi glukh.”

 

Also, one has to have a good answer to the question “why not to assimilate,” other than “if we all are idiots you be one too” I think Arpa above has successfully alluded a landscape where we all may be considered as the “idiots.”

 

I guess, where I am headed is a statement that not to assimilate, a nation has to have a purpose and has to believe in it strongly and passionately. And it has to be a worthy purpose to keep people away from “jumping out of the train.” I don’t think the preservation of the “past” and the “heritage” is such a worthy purpose. After all, what is old, frequently gets discarded.

[sen_Vahan]

"tkel paytikin"..

This expression is so erevanian!!! Great, Harut!

 

"I guess, where I am headed is a statement that not to assimilate, a nation has to have a purpose and has to believe in it strongly and passionately. And it has to be a worthy purpose to keep people away from “jumping out of the train.” I don’t think the preservation of the “past” and the “heritage” is such a worthy purpose. After all, what is old, frequently gets discarded."

 

MJ, can't agree with you more! And that purpose should be the COUNTRY. There should be something gathering us all, giving us some coherence and the purpose to exist. That may also be the religion, the churh,etc but the most important is the COUNTRY - hayrenik. I think it is our country that might gather us not counting the true armenians and the assimilated.

 

By the way, MJ, armenian church is not Orthodox...

[MJ]

[sen_Vahan]

"It depends whether we mean it as a title or as an adjective... '

 

In any way it is not Orthodox..

[MJ]

Nkati unes Hay Ughghapar Arakelakan Egeghetsin ughghapar chi?

[Rubo]

mj>I guess, where I am headed is a statement that not to assimilate, a nation has to have a purpose and has to believe in it strongly and passionately. And it has to be a worthy purpose to keep people away from “jumping out of the train.” I don’t think the preservation of the “past” and the “heritage” is such a worthy purpose. After all, what is old, frequently gets discarded.

 

Argishti>Now we are in the muddy waters of bland relativism without clear objectives. Nations like individuals are by products of the “past” and “heritage” and you cannot build cohesive agenda without the past. Jews cannot exist without Judaism or Holocaust experience. Armenia likewise has its particular pasts that can never be discarded. What is discarded generally are the superficial and the transitory events and in individuals experiences. I agree that nation has to have a purpose but that very purpose is trapped in the past. Logically everything is in the past. As soon as you read this very massage is in the past so the purpose cannot be escaped from the past but one can argue relative merits of particular “pasts” and come to harmonious consensus.

[MJ]

It's a new day today and a new mood...

 

Sonny, you are a really stupid schizophrenic who has learned to put a couple of "isms" at the end of his words...

[Rubo]

You are simply a miserable looser.Your last argument is in smoke!!

[MJ]

OK, now that you "got me," would you stop contaminating the Forum with your crap? I personally don't have much time left to shovel it, so if you get out of the way, people may have chance to talk to each other here.

[Rubo]

Some observations. Generally egoists don’t like to be contradicted since they take the position of “know it all” hence when they do loose in a debate they resort to cheap tactics of name-calling. I do genuinely feel sympathetic to looser egoists but also does give me pleasure to burst the bubble or shall I say exposing the emptiness beyond posturings.

[MJ]

Just pathological, as I said yesterday.

 

Since you have to have the last words, or perhaps the last several words, I will give you the pleasure. Just get your stink out of the way, OK.

[Rubo]

if you get out of the way, people may have chance to talk to each other here.

 

Schizophrenic? I’ll say paranoia. People are free to post!!! In case you missed the purpose of this forum. Disagreeing is part of the process or the heart of any debate but I guess you prefer only people who stroke the egoist in you.

[nairi]

So this is what you were trying to tell me yesterday. My way or no way. Another point we seem to have in common.

 

Nairi

[Rubo]

Dear Arpa, I hope I can disagree…

 

I think it was Azat who kind of put the record straight when he invoked all those so called "assimilated Armenians" who are the main contributors to our cause, be it finanacially, politically and socially.

 

Argishti>I already explained this point clearly. By assimilated I mean again with emphasis- Armenians who are so assimilated that you can not even tell the difference if they were Mexican, Cubans or whatever.

 

There may be many examples but let us take one "assiimilated Armenian" and see what it really means.

KIRK KERKORAIN!

He is probably the legendary "assimilated Armenian". I bet you he can't even write his name in Armenian.

HE IS ASSIMILATED.

Argishti>Again you are following to your assumptions. Knowing Armenian or not or reading or not does not constitute assimilated, Kirk is very much an Armenian in spirit and he demonstrated that spirit well by philanthropy.

 

Nowe let us see which so called "non-assilated Armenian" has done more for our cause and our welfare?

Yes, There was a time when he and his ilk (you name them, Charles Aznavour comes to mind) were truly alienated/udzatsats. With good reason too. They were sick and tired of all the insults like; What kind of Armenian are they? "They don't sing in Armenian, they don't mix inArmenian crowds, they even, at times deny their heritage". What heritage?!! A people who don't even know who they are? A people who are not even a NATION? A people who identify themselves by denomiantion? Which Denomiantion? Apostoilic, Catholic or protestant? A people who identify themselves a a faction(so called political partie)? Which faction? Hnchak,Dashnak or Ramkavar? Is not that enough to want to crawl under the closest rock?

 

Argishti>My answer is the same as my first statement. You are following propositions that you set yourself.

 

And now, now that the Armenian is on its way to become a nation, not a denomiantion, not a faction, not the laughing stock of thr world, all those "assimilated Armenians" are coming out of the woodwork and putting their shoulders to the task.

Argishti> My answer is the same as my first statement. You are following propositions that you set yourself.

 

If we keep to label them "assimilated", less than an Armenian, some kind of a defective Armenian because they cannot speak the language or they could not care about the Jews and the Turks.

Guess what? They can very easily hold back their financial and moral support ans let the "non-assimilated" ones do the job.

 

Argishti>My answer is the same as my first statement. You are following propositions that you set yourself. I hope I am understood more clearly now…

 

PS “ Disagree with an Armenian make an enemy for life”

Ara Baliozian

[MJ]

Nairi,

 

You knew that I have not much time at my hands today and for the coming week or so. I am out the door in a minute, in fact. Therefore, I think your last remark is a little dishonest.

 

Additionally, why do you think that having the last word over you is such a great satisfaction for me so that I would go through such great lengths? In fact you would love to have you to have the last word. Only your word as to carry the necessary weight.

 

Can you have such last word?

[nairi]

I never asked for a reply, MJ. I was merely commenting aloud. I apologize if this disturbed your schedule. Hope you make it on time anyway.

[sen_Vahan]

Nkati unes Hay Ughghapar Arakelakan Egeghetsin ughghapar chi?

 

Hay Arakelakan Ekegezin uggapar chi, MJ jan.

[MJ]

Dear Vahan,

 

I think the following material may be found to be useful:

 

"THE ARMENIAN CHURCH-A BRIEF HISTORY

 

The Armenian Church is an independent Christian church, also known as the Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Church. Its head is the Catholicos, who resides at Holy Etchmiadzin, near Yerevan, the capital of Armenia.

 

http://www.armenianchurch.org/c-1-armenian.jsp

 

The Website of the Diocese of the Armenian Church of America "

 

Sorry for not being able to provide you with better references under the current circumstances. I tried to find Etchmiadzin's Web site, a reference to which I know exists in Hye Forum, but couldn't. This is the best I could come up with, for now. Please let me know if you don't find this material to be credible, and I'll try to do better job upon my return home.

 

As far as the merrits of the issue are concerned, and if you are interested in the subject, the Armenian Church has been more Orthodox in some centuries and more Catolic in other. All has depended on which way has the Byzantine Empire leaned in the corresponding era.

[sen_Vahan]

Thank you, MJ. i know all that stuff. The site is nice though.

orthodox churches are - greek, russian,serbian, georgian,belorussian,ukrainian,bulgarian,etc.

But not the armenian. Armenian church is Apostolic (WHICH ACTUALLY DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING EXCEPT THAT IT CONTINUES THE TRADITION OF APOSTOLS).

The theological dogmas of Armenian church are different from those of ugapar. There are principal (from the point of view of armenian and orthodox theologists and church members) differences btw them. Let me give you an example from real practice: A close friend of mine from Russia married a russian girl and they went to russian church. You will be surprised but the pop said :"bilo bi grexovnim postupkom Vas venchat' v pravoslavnoy zerkvi.Moreover, rassmatrivaetsya kak grexovniy postupok, kogda armyane molyatsya v pravoslavnoy zerkvi"

 

Due to today's ecumenism Armenian church tries to find tights with catholic and orthodox churches in the world which obviously does not mean it becomes orthodox or catholic.

 

take the list of churches that are considered catholic and you will not find the Armenian church there, and the same about orthodox. you know, the thing is that arm church is independent and it elects its catogikos' itself.(this is well known) whereas , for example, georgian church cannot do that without the agreement of "patriarx moskovskiy i vseya Rusi" which simply means georgian church is under the jurisdiction of russian orthodox church.

 

etc.,etc,........

 

One can in fact consider all the churches as being the same with various names... But churches were devided and they still remain devided.

 

vahan

[MJ]

Vahan,

 

I think you have not read my last material carefully.

 

Sorry, have to go now.

[nairi]

I admit that I don't know much, or anything at all actually, about the Armenian Church, but as far as I know it is not Orthodox like other Orthodox Churches. Unlike other churches, the Armenian Church claims to hail from apostles Thaddaeus and Bartholomew, hence the name Apostolic Church. The synonym Gregorian Church is derived from Gregory the Illuminator who "showed the light of the true faith". The Mother See of Etchmiadzin is the Armenian Church, also called Armenian Apostolic Church or Armenian Gregorian Church. That I'm almost sure of.

 

Nairi

[Harut]

add to that, "hay lusavorchakan yekeghetsi"