Zen

[Paul bunyan]

The Zen religion cannot protect

you from demons

[THOTH]

Yes Paul - quite a practical consideration. However, next time you are besiged by such I suggest a Barreta or Glock 7 or such (silver bullets optional) - because as we saw in the Exorcist and in Dracula silver crosses are not always effective either...

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul bunyan:

The Zen religion cannot protect

you from demons

---

[Paul bunyan]

Thoth, an interesting reply, however

they are regretably, all to real.

and no implements of man can hurt them. no bullets, no karate chops,

not even a MiG can destroy them.

humanists do not have the guts to deal with this, so they pretend that

these neffeleum don't exist.... even

though many religions say they do

Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Paganism.

[THOTH]

I don't buy it - sorry - the whole concept seems rather silly to me. I have seen no proof or evidence of any creatures with supernatural powers of any kind. I specifically see no evidence for disembodied types nor beings from other dimensions or such. Regardless - I suggest that there are more pressing issues & dangers. Please remember to buckle up when you drive, quit smoking, look both ways when crossing the street, and remember to eat your garlic (helps fight the aging process...LOL). Really, I think too many people worry themselves with these sort of bogeymen (and all of the apocolyptic stuff) and lose sight of the real problems, dangers & dilemas facing us as individuals and people in the world today. As far as I see it you have one life to live - and thats here and now in the flesh & blood - make the most of it. Yes - treat others with love, kindness & respect - etc - but not to prevent yourself from burning in hell (please) - but because its the right and compasionate thing to do (oops I better watch it or you will think me a Bhuddist....ehhe). Christian Heaven sounds awfly boring anyway - I mean do you really like to sing hymns and pray all of the time - keep your voice hushed, be good & the like? Our vices are fun! They make us human and unique - they make life interesting. Somehow I fail to see the joy in being a disembodied spirit in any event - I would miss my body - the exertions of it - the challenges of living - the sensual perceptions etc etc (think about it). Wishing for a nirvana in some other life seems like quite the cop out to me. You have a lot riding on your faith - and I wonder if you have really thought it through. I have - and I have no fear of eternal punishments - nor of unseen devils and demons etc - somehow I think I sleep a little easier at night than those who might worry if they shall be chosen or not & such....and I certainly do not fear thetans or such - whatever - unseen beings who might possibly torment us. Humans torment themselves pretty much without the need for such creatures...and what is their motivation to do so anyway? Tell the next Demon you see to leave you alone and get a life!

[vahan]

zen is the ultimate flowering of humaan consciousness..Mind is dropped,existence is experienced no words no description..eyes filled with thoughts loose their clarity,mind filled with thoughts is a junkyard..No superior intelligence is required ( a Ph.D may miss it,and a simpler mind may see it..)What is required is CLARITY

of vision,your mind is a construct of your illusionary ego..tame it..and start to see truth as is..not thru your preconceived ideas ...let me explain..

Man is in deep ignorance,he knows nothing!!!so he has designed a system called philosophy,where he ,using logic,creates formulae ,systems etc.. ABOUT reality..always about and NEVER reality itself..and he thinks that now he knows..and he has succeeded in deceiving himself..why can't philosop[hy(or science ever understand truth??Because philosophy is a logical interpretation of truth..whereas reality transends reality (e.g. electrons mass or wave?? biggest science puzzle-by the way i am a physics graduate.another example our incapacity to preceive the 4 th dimension..why ??)

Philosophy(science etc..) are uni dimensional and goal oriented,truth is multidimensional and transends logic and imagination...therefore understand that you are not your mind!!!!,your mind is obsessed with logic...truth is far more complicated than your petty primitive logic!!!

You taste a fruit,you know the taste,mind is useless in trying to understand taste..

A 14 year old who has never seen a bike will learn ti ride much fatser than a mechanical engineer who also have not seen a bike before..why ???because the 14 year old has become one with bike..no thinking..a vaccum packed entity..the engineer is analysing thinking..and failing miserably!!!

The other aspect of your mind is imagination..also no basis for reality you can imagine anything you want..demons..christ..god..etc..this is a construct of your mind ..garbage!!!!..

when thought is dropped ,you are brought to the moment..the only truth is in this moment..no thought exists..plain existence AND experience...the minute you leave the moment...you work thru your inefficient mind

..thinking of the past thru imagination or the future thru logic..you have escaped from reality!!!

my advice to you..life is very short..drop every concept..including every religion..come to the moment and experience being alive ..and totally i mean totally absobed in the present ..that is budhist(zen)approach...waking up ....from your miserable

dreamlike state..and see beauty around you..smell the paradise ..it is here..not after your death!!!!that is zen budhist promise to you..to see paradise in this world!!!

experienc

[Paul bunyan]

Heaven will be right here on earth

there will be no flying around on clouds with wings on our backs, you'll be able to meet again, friends, wifes, husbands, children, parents, and favorite pets, that have passed on.

You can meet the famous people of the

past, the apostles, Vartan Mamigonian

Meshrop Mashtots, George Washington, etc. some people don't want to sing hymns or play harps... well, I do. the

harp is favorite of mine after I master it then I will master the Kanoon, and the Armenian oboe.

[THOTH]

Paul -

 

Harp is indeed a most beautiful instrument - I have a friend who has played his harp for the Pope (at least twice) - he is quite accomplished (though is deaf - at least largely - though not completely so). I can see why its the preferred instrument of Heaven...

 

Speaking of again....As for your dreams of Heaven - thats fine if it is what you need to be happy/content. Sounds a bit unlikely (almost unfathamable really) to me I must say...do pets have souls to go to heaven? If Heaven is on Earth - is this post-apocolyptic or some such? (I can underrstand the concept of creating Heaven on earth - but of course I envision a more temporal type of place [with losts of strong drink & free sex & stuff!] Could you really speak to aposotles (what language?)...and what would you really say to them? ("nice weather we're having"...etc) Are you sure that George Washington will be in Heaven (and all of the others)? Have you really contemplated your planned (eternal) life there? Won't it get boring - all disembodied tea parties & such? Can you really keep entertained, and behaving within the rules, to the end of time? Will I be able to have sex with old girlfriends? What if you get bored with girls after milenia? If I started liking guys would they kick me out? (theoretical question...) So many issues...is there a handbook or something?

[THOTH]

quote:

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Originally posted by vahan:
zen is the ultimate flowering of humaan consciousness..Mind is dropped,existence is experienced no words no description..eyes filled with thoughts loose their clarity,mind filled with thoughts is a junkyard..No superior intelligence is required ( a Ph.D may miss it,and a simpler mind may see it..)What is required is CLARITY
of vision,your mind is a construct of your illusionary ego..tame it..and start to see truth as is..not thru your preconceived ideas ...let me explain..

---

Ultimate flowering of human consciousness...while I understand the beefits of meditation...and clarity in thinking etc (which I totally lack...LOL)...I reject the Eastern philosophical notion that true enlightenment can only be attained through nothingness. This is an illusionary construct I think (not saying that it cannot be a platform for insights...however I don't think by doing such one will truly unlock any universal truths concerning our reality...except perhaps by chance/insight...though almost by definition - IMO - this must be based on soe prior knowledge - expanded upon in a novel way..versus from pure enlightenment...

I find it odd that while normal buddism concentrates on the physical here & now - the reduction of suffering in the (physical world)...the Zen philosophy/outlook rejects such (physical base things) altogether. While Zen might have its uses - it seems to me to be a very self-centered/selfish practice and does nothing to advance the state of the miserable masses nor the advancement of humans a s a species etc. - thus it is a niche practice at best IMO.

I can understand becoming "one" with something (and have this capability...it is possible to suspend precondition if you relax your mind). And I agree logic and empirical methods have limitations...as we are limited in perception & understanding. And your "experience the moment" & life here & now & such is all well & good & I subscribe to it - but it is equally (if not more so) limiting than the Western religious concepts. Neither - IMO- hits upon universal truth or covers all guidance for what we as individuals and as a society/species etc should do for ourselves and the whole. I feel that in picking one and promoting it to the very end you (and others who do such for other beliefs) are limiting themselves (are not being open to enlightenment [or the little enlightenments] etc). While I can approve of your journys of personal discovery through Zen - your claims seem to me to be vast (and unsupportable) overstatements). Yes - perhaps we can only describe reality as we percieve it - and our perceptions become/are our reality...but i reject that we have the capability to know "reality" - it is by definition to vast and too beyond our ability to percieve or comprehend - at best we can only understand our slice (if even that) - with Zen you may understand more of your slice (as you work at such) - but it is no more than that - you will not have all of the answers - none of us will - so accept it and enjoy what you have....

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[vahan]

This is a true story..happened on a dog race

track in florida...

Every day the dogs would run after an artificial rabbit round and round..day in day out...One morning however,one of the dogs

for some strange reason,stopped in the middle

of the tracks then jumped over the fence,ran thru the field (diagonally) and grabbed the rabbit...!!

it is called waking up just waking up,and understanding thru you whole !! ...(mind is just a tiny part of you !!!)...You seem to be completely ensnalrled in conceptual thinking..this is why we can't communicate

effectively..ONLY experience makes you understand..everything else is conceptual

i.e. is ABOUT and ABOUT and ABOUT the subject NEVER hitting the target..(that's why I consider philosophy as a sickness very

very hard to combat..it leads NOWHERE..most great philosophers ended up in the nuthouse anyway.)

Mind ,has it's uses,when tamed,illuminated

but not at the conceptual level.

There are many,(novices) who think ZEN is not budhism,but ZEN is pure BUDHISM,purified

of even budha himself...

I strongly ,recommend a book titled by

Fritjof Capra(PH.D. nuclear physics) title of book is The Tao of physics!!read it ,your life will never be the same again!!

[Anshnork]

As a newcomer to this whole board thing, I found it very refreshing to see ARMENIANS speak of RELIGION. It seems to me like it's a CRIME for an Armenian to even THINK about questioning,(or even discussing),their Christian beliefs. Is it possible that I am not the ONLY open-minded Armenian? What does this general Armenian community think about atheists? Or Marxism?

 

And to Vahan, whose posting I found very amusing, has it not occured to you that Zen IS a philosophy (or a disease for all of mankind, as you so put it)?

[vahan]

hi guys !!

first to anshnork :PLease,don't take my word,verify it for yourself ,ZEN IS NOT A PHILOSOPHY .....people,who like to understand zen,because of it's peculiar nature ,which makes it extremly difficult to understand it,write books ABOUT IT (I say again ABOUT IT--trying to describe it with words..therefore PHILOSOPHISING ,about zen.

ZEN is by it's nature,is anti thinking,anti philosophy and anticoncept.

 

To TOTH:What a pleasure to hear,from such bright people as yourself,I enjoy all your comments and counter arguments!!..

Eastern mysticism as a whole,whether it is budhism,jainism taoism(china)Zen(china and japan),are really ,evolved from the mother religion of all,hinduism.Budha ,filtered some

of the non-acceptable ideas,such as,soul etc.. and came up with budhism.Chinese developed further in taosim and cha'n(which is ZEN)and in japan ,Zen blossomed to it's highest level.

The book "The Tao of Physics" is written by a brilliant physicist,who bundles all eastern religions(HInduism-taoism-budhism-zen)and mentioned some astonishing facts,that these religions brought forth (thru severe meditation-)some extraordinary knowledge of the nature of the universe..e.g.The 4 th dimensional aspect of the universe (time and space being one)which Einstein,heisenberg and others brought forth 2500 years Later !!!!!

Also the interconnectedness of the universe..

i.e.the complete and total absence of an independent self!!amazing,what nuclear physics found mathematically,eastern mysticists had arrived there,thru meditation.

One last note all these eastern religions aim at only and only one thing!!How to become ENLIGHTENED..That is the goal,The percepts ,put forth by budha ,are for normal folks like you and I that might not get enlightened in such a short period,but at least to live in a way that is appropriate for good people

(e.g.budha said-it exhorts you not kill,etc..

-never said thou shall not kill-)

Zen,doesn't put all of its emphasis on meditation,(as I can tell from personal experience)in japan,KOAN are used ,continuuously to awaken the mind,and if you are very lucky..you might experience KENSHO.

Nobody has monopoly on truth,the avenues differ but the truth is the same..suit yourself,choose and have fun while doing it.

 

to Toth:Neither I nor any text in Zen ,says truth is only thru ZEN,truth can be attained from any angle,any religion ,I just said .areaz

FOR ME,it is the fastest way of attaining truth..for you could be christianity or islam or whatver.

Budhism,is a changing religion,it was born in India,(but almost died there),grew to vast proportions in china(cha'n-married to chinese

downtoearthness taosim was born --)and Blossomed injapan.

[Anshnork]

What is a philosophy? As a student of philosophy I feel confident in my ability to provide an somewhat accurate answer to this question. In my experience, philosophy has been refered to as the search for an understanding of reality- the pursuit of knowledge of the TRUTH, or wisdom- and how to behave in order to attain that truth, or how to live effectively given the nature of reality. Zen not only describes the nature of truth, but also throughly explains how to achieve it, thus falling perfectly into the explanation of philosophy I gave earlier. Because you (vahan) and others who have faith in Zen choose to believe that it is not a philosophy, the nature of what Zen is not changed, and it continues to be a philosophy to the rest of the world. Why else then, would we call the cluster of Zen, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Confucianism, EASTERN PHILOSOPHY?

 

Also, vahan, what TRUTH have you attained from Zen? Not only have I extensively studied Taoism, and to a lesser extent Zen, I have even tried to practice. Although I think each is a beautiful philosophy and a nice way to live, I am not convinced in any way that that is TRUTH. I am just curious as to what draws you to this belief, and what makes you so confident that it's "correct".

[vahan]

To Anshnork:

I"m sure ,this little story ,will shed some light on the matter.Philosophy is based on logic and searches the truth..we both agree??

now let me explain to you why philosophy CAN NEVER understand the truth (It can talk about it-but that is not understanding)..I'll recite a little story,hopefully this time,understanding will come to you.

I will repeat,what I said not long ago,,If I have a fruit in my hand,that you have never tasted it(nor seen it),and I hide it from you,but you have all your philosopher friends(truth seekers)and will explain to you,what this fruit tastes like...at one point...you get excied..wow ,now talking to these geniuses ,you think you know what it tastes like..wow..Actually you haven't got a clue!!!!!because UNDERSTANDING will come,when I put a peice of the fruit in your mouth..and voila !! now you know ..NO words NO philosophy no crap!!!

Don't feel that you must continueously defend your opinions,it is not a sign of maturity.we all are wrong most of the time anyway..

This little story tells you ,that yes philosophy is search for truth,no doubt about it,but attaining it is COMPLETELY another story,understanding comes from your WHOLE BEING,your mind,is a NON_UNDERSTANDER.it is a philosopher ..THIS WHY meditation tames your mind ,brings it closer to seeing things ,rather than talking about it.

[THOTH]

Well welcome Ashnork. I think that one can certainly be a Christian and be a good person too! (LOL) Though I do agree that we should question our beliefs (our own & that of others)- and I for one find many of the underpinnings of Christianity to be a bit shaky - and some of the underlining concepts (regarding the nature of God & his relationship to man etc) to be downright repulsive (and unreal). (but thats just me). I also often feel that "who am I too question someone elses revelation"....(Zen or otherwise I guess...LOL). (though I have never had such - nor have I seen that any who have really know much more - if at all - then the rest of us - nor do they seem to get any noticable preferential treatment...)But as long as others are giving their 2 cents concerning the order of the cosmos etc - I'll certainly chime in my bit - and while I may critique your beleifs - I would never preach to you that I had any answers per se (BTW Vahan ..if its a Zen book...why is it titled the Tao of Physics and not the Zen of physics?). I do happen to think that Taoism is pretty cool and often urge folks to check it out....but what do I care if any of you actually beleive any of it and I am not even saying that I do...but if I choose to live by its precepts - or some subset of them - well thats my business isn't it now? And I don't really take to kindly to someone telling me that what they have chosen is somehow more correct or the only truth & BTW I will be punished eternally for not following their particular way (thats a laugh really)....

 

On a related subject - I really think the Armenian church is in trouble (at least here in the States) - (young) folks are leaving in droves...and they can't get American Priests, and Armenian Priests seem a pretty wierd lot in general, and the politics of it all is pretty horrible (at least these are my casual observations....)...so perhaps its no wonder that folks are wigging on Zen, TM, Karma Sutra & the Dao (etc)...eh?

[Anshnork]

I believe our misunderstandings about this matter stem from the somewhat different definitions we each have of "philosophy". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel that your definition is something along the lines of " a logical and rational pursuit of, and analysis of the TRUTH", and with this is mind, it is obvious that the specific beliefs of Zen do not fit into this category. However, I (and much of the outside world) define Philosophy in a completely different way. Believe me, I am well aware of the methods that Zen claims will divulge the TRUTH, but those methods have NOTHING to do with whether Zen is a philosophy or not. Zen is a system of beliefs that supposedly provide insight as to how to attain knowledge of the TRUTH. This SYSTEM OF BELIEFS is a philosophy. It does not matter what the particular beliefs or methods are. The fact that Zen provides an explanation to what the TRUTH is and how to attain it makes it a Philosophy. The use of logic and reason are NOT what create a philosophy. I would also like to add that not all philosophies involve rational analysis and logic to explain and then achieve the TRUTH.

[vahan]

hi anshnmork;

Words are a vehicle UPON WHICH,truth is coveyed,(not the truth itself)I say ,apple...it is a word,if i put an applin your hand,than we have commincated in a zen like fashion.

Zen HAS NO SYSTEM,of beliefs,no written words,it is transmitted from master(zen master) to his student,in a non verbal manner,thru forcing student ,to understand master's mind,rather than a set of instructions..how this is done ,thru kaons,which are very often unintelligible and paradoxical words..to instill the student a consciouness similar to his teacher and thus communicating in a NON VERBAL fashion.Budhism ,has concepts and paths to follow (thus a philosophy)which,once understood,MUST be discarded,i.e. like a raft that you use ,to cross a river(raft being the philosophy)and once river is crossed,raft is discarded !!,once enlightened no more need,for sutras or beliefs,one supposodly becomes a knower,and instinctivley apprehends.

Man,is totally ignorant,modern physics,just recently,discovered,that,no subamotic particles really exist,and the latest news,is that only an interconnected movement is the essence of matter!!weird isn't it..so we do not comprehend it,but boy ,do we have theories and ideas about it!!

All,science(and philosophy),is an ego created,sets of theorems etc..to explain ,something,to one's ego..so as we feel that we know...it is so satisfying to the ego,that ,we cling to these theorems,which eternally talk about reality,This is why the whole emphasis of budhism(thru philosophy) is to appeal to you,that nothing really exists ,EXCEPT the NOW,which is so minute,and elsuive,that thoughs can't penetrate...

A monk approached master Bikuju,said,teach me zen,master said,when hungry eat,when thirsty drink!!sounds simplistic..it is not.Wgwhen you graduate from budhism,you enter ZEn,your intellect can not and never will cut reality.in zen ,intellection and verbosity are put to an end,and students are required,to understand thru NON CONCEPTUAL thinking,this is like a fiery baptism,where seeing and experiencing is the essence.

If a man,tells his wife "I love you" and wife replies "I love you too"..are both people feeling exactly the same way ???but the words are the same ...Whereas reality is not.

We tend to think,that we are ,the mmind,

the intellect ...how untrue !! you have the universe hidden in you,if you would only try to un derstand non-conceptually..things would like quite different,and tru colors of the flowers thus for the first will be seen,things that were dormant,willsuddenly wake up and look at you !!!you are looking at theworld thru a mental system,designed by you,if you could drop the mind and look,you will see,more detail,Your whole being is a unit,do not seperate the mind from your intuitive subconscious mind,your legs,your heart your mind ..ALL is required for tru understanding.

By the way,let me digress for a moment,somebody from religious authority send me a privcate email,that i should be shamed of what i'm talking about,and i'm poisening young armenian christian mind..i replied him "it is neither hot or cold where i am"....: ))))he will never figure it out..but you would.

You are a smart cookie,proud to have such awakened and alert minds as yoursin our community.I too old to argue with those morons..and frankly how can you explain light to a blind man ??

[MJ]

Vahan and Anshnork (what an ironic username) first of all, let me welcome you both to the forum.

 

I have been following your dialog with an interest. In contrary of the private message that you have received, let me encourage you to keep an open mind and aggressive attitude in delivering your thoughts. In my view, nothing has poisoned neither in the distant nor in the near Armenian history the minds of younger and older men and women than the conventional Armenian Christian ideology (as opposed to the faith). I trace all the Armenian troubles throughout history to that source.

 

As far as some of the substantial issues go, Vahan, I would like to disagree on a factual level with your statement regarding the proof in the realm of the modern physics that “no subatomic particles really exist.” I don’t think this is an accurate statement, scientifically speaking. Perhaps you meant something else, or I misunderstood you.

 

I also would like to disagree with your statements that man learns about the world through experience only. First of all, I think the world consists of “things” and “thoughts.” The “things” and the “thoughts” are interconnected in some subtle way. It is trough that we first learn about the “things” through experience. But no experience can give a correct understanding of the “thing” unless the “thought” explains it. For example, we can experience the light through our sensors. However, we learn about the subtle properties of light through our mind only, which tries to explain the “thing” of light. Without the explanation the experience is worth not much – the experience would be too rudimentary. It is the “thought” that elevates our understanding of the “thing” to a new level, which allows us to materialize a new experience, which could’ve not been crafted without the “thought.” Sure, the thing exists irregardless of our experience, however only the “thought” allows us to have the experience.