vahan

hi anshnmork; Words are a vehicle UPON WHICH,truth is coveyed,(not the truth itself)I say ,apple...it is a word,if i put an applin your hand,than we have commincated in a zen like fashion. Zen HAS NO SYSTEM,of beliefs,no written words,it is transmitted from master(zen master) to his student,in a non verbal manner,thru forcing student ,to understand master's mind,rather than a set of instructions..how this is done ,thru kaons,which are very often unintelligible and paradoxical words..to instill the student a consciouness similar to his teacher and thus communicating in a NON VERBAL fashion.Budhism ,has concepts and paths to follow (thus a philosophy)which,once understood,MUST be discarded,i.e. like a raft that you use ,to cross a river(raft being the philosophy)and once river is crossed,raft is discarded !!,once enlightened no more need,for sutras or beliefs,one supposodly becomes a knower,and instinctivley apprehends. Man,is totally ignorant,modern physics,just recently,discovered,that,no subamotic particles really exist,and the latest news,is that only an interconnected movement is the essence of matter!!weird isn't it..so we do not comprehend it,but boy ,do we have theories and ideas about it!! All,science(and philosophy),is an ego created,sets of theorems etc..to explain ,something,to one's ego..so as we feel that we know...it is so satisfying to the ego,that ,we cling to these theorems,which eternally talk about reality,This is why the whole emphasis of budhism(thru philosophy) is to appeal to you,that nothing really exists ,EXCEPT the NOW,which is so minute,and elsuive,that thoughs can't penetrate... A monk approached master Bikuju,said,teach me zen,master said,when hungry eat,when thirsty drink!!sounds simplistic..it is not.Wgwhen you graduate from budhism,you enter ZEn,your intellect can not and never will cut reality.in zen ,intellection and verbosity are put to an end,and students are required,to understand thru NON CONCEPTUAL thinking,this is like a fiery baptism,where seeing and experiencing is the essence. If a man,tells his wife "I love you" and wife replies "I love you too"..are both people feeling exactly the same way ???but the words are the same ...Whereas reality is not. We tend to think,that we are ,the mmind, the intellect ...how untrue !! you have the universe hidden in you,if you would only try to un derstand non-conceptually..things would like quite different,and tru colors of the flowers thus for the first will be seen,things that were dormant,willsuddenly wake up and look at you !!!you are looking at theworld thru a mental system,designed by you,if you could drop the mind and look,you will see,more detail,Your whole being is a unit,do not seperate the mind from your intuitive subconscious mind,your legs,your heart your mind ..ALL is required for tru understanding. By the way,let me digress for a moment,somebody from religious authority send me a privcate email,that i should be shamed of what i'm talking about,and i'm poisening young armenian christian mind..i replied him "it is neither hot or cold where i am"....: ))))he will never figure it out..but you would. You are a smart cookie,proud to have such awakened and alert minds as yoursin our community.I too old to argue with those morons..and frankly how can you explain light to a blind man ??

One should not take sorryyyyy and exlax together...because... you wouldn't know if you were coming or going.....

To Anshnork: I"m sure ,this little story ,will shed some light on the matter.Philosophy is based on logic and searches the truth..we both agree?? now let me explain to you why philosophy CAN NEVER understand the truth (It can talk about it-but that is not understanding)..I'll recite a little story,hopefully this time,understanding will come to you. I will repeat,what I said not long ago,,If I have a fruit in my hand,that you have never tasted it(nor seen it),and I hide it from you,but you have all your philosopher friends(truth seekers)and will explain to you,what this fruit tastes like...at one point...you get excied..wow ,now talking to these geniuses ,you think you know what it tastes like..wow..Actually you haven't got a clue!!!!!because UNDERSTANDING will come,when I put a peice of the fruit in your mouth..and voila !! now you know ..NO words NO philosophy no crap!!! Don't feel that you must continueously defend your opinions,it is not a sign of maturity.we all are wrong most of the time anyway.. This little story tells you ,that yes philosophy is search for truth,no doubt about it,but attaining it is COMPLETELY another story,understanding comes from your WHOLE BEING,your mind,is a NON_UNDERSTANDER.it is a philosopher ..THIS WHY meditation tames your mind ,brings it closer to seeing things ,rather than talking about it.

hi guys !! first to anshnork :PLease,don't take my word,verify it for yourself ,ZEN IS NOT A PHILOSOPHY .....people,who like to understand zen,because of it's peculiar nature ,which makes it extremly difficult to understand it,write books ABOUT IT (I say again ABOUT IT--trying to describe it with words..therefore PHILOSOPHISING ,about zen. ZEN is by it's nature,is anti thinking,anti philosophy and anticoncept. To TOTH:What a pleasure to hear,from such bright people as yourself,I enjoy all your comments and counter arguments!!.. Eastern mysticism as a whole,whether it is budhism,jainism taoism(china)Zen(china and japan),are really ,evolved from the mother religion of all,hinduism.Budha ,filtered some of the non-acceptable ideas,such as,soul etc.. and came up with budhism.Chinese developed further in taosim and cha'n(which is ZEN)and in japan ,Zen blossomed to it's highest level. The book "The Tao of Physics" is written by a brilliant physicist,who bundles all eastern religions(HInduism-taoism-budhism-zen)and mentioned some astonishing facts,that these religions brought forth (thru severe meditation-)some extraordinary knowledge of the nature of the universe..e.g.The 4 th dimensional aspect of the universe (time and space being one)which Einstein,heisenberg and others brought forth 2500 years Later !!!!! Also the interconnectedness of the universe.. i.e.the complete and total absence of an independent self!!amazing,what nuclear physics found mathematically,eastern mysticists had arrived there,thru meditation. One last note all these eastern religions aim at only and only one thing!!How to become ENLIGHTENED..That is the goal,The percepts ,put forth by budha ,are for normal folks like you and I that might not get enlightened in such a short period,but at least to live in a way that is appropriate for good people (e.g.budha said-it exhorts you not kill,etc.. -never said thou shall not kill-) Zen,doesn't put all of its emphasis on meditation,(as I can tell from personal experience)in japan,KOAN are used ,continuuously to awaken the mind,and if you are very lucky..you might experience KENSHO. Nobody has monopoly on truth,the avenues differ but the truth is the same..suit yourself,choose and have fun while doing it. to Toth:Neither I nor any text in Zen ,says truth is only thru ZEN,truth can be attained from any angle,any religion ,I just said .areaz FOR ME,it is the fastest way of attaining truth..for you could be christianity or islam or whatver. Budhism,is a changing religion,it was born in India,(but almost died there),grew to vast proportions in china(cha'n-married to chinese downtoearthness taosim was born --)and Blossomed injapan.

This is a true story..happened on a dog race track in florida... Every day the dogs would run after an artificial rabbit round and round..day in day out...One morning however,one of the dogs for some strange reason,stopped in the middle of the tracks then jumped over the fence,ran thru the field (diagonally) and grabbed the rabbit...!! it is called waking up just waking up,and understanding thru you whole !! ...(mind is just a tiny part of you !!!)...You seem to be completely ensnalrled in conceptual thinking..this is why we can't communicate effectively..ONLY experience makes you understand..everything else is conceptual i.e. is ABOUT and ABOUT and ABOUT the subject NEVER hitting the target..(that's why I consider philosophy as a sickness very very hard to combat..it leads NOWHERE..most great philosophers ended up in the nuthouse anyway.) Mind ,has it's uses,when tamed,illuminated but not at the conceptual level. There are many,(novices) who think ZEN is not budhism,but ZEN is pure BUDHISM,purified of even budha himself... I strongly ,recommend a book titled by Fritjof Capra(PH.D. nuclear physics) title of book is The Tao of physics!!read it ,your life will never be the same again!!

zen is the ultimate flowering of humaan consciousness..Mind is dropped,existence is experienced no words no description..eyes filled with thoughts loose their clarity,mind filled with thoughts is a junkyard..No superior intelligence is required ( a Ph.D may miss it,and a simpler mind may see it..)What is required is CLARITY of vision,your mind is a construct of your illusionary ego..tame it..and start to see truth as is..not thru your preconceived ideas ...let me explain.. Man is in deep ignorance,he knows nothing!!!so he has designed a system called philosophy,where he ,using logic,creates formulae ,systems etc.. ABOUT reality..always about and NEVER reality itself..and he thinks that now he knows..and he has succeeded in deceiving himself..why can't philosop[hy(or science ever understand truth??Because philosophy is a logical interpretation of truth..whereas reality transends reality (e.g. electrons mass or wave?? biggest science puzzle-by the way i am a physics graduate.another example our incapacity to preceive the 4 th dimension..why ??) Philosophy(science etc..) are uni dimensional and goal oriented,truth is multidimensional and transends logic and imagination...therefore understand that you are not your mind!!!!,your mind is obsessed with logic...truth is far more complicated than your petty primitive logic!!! You taste a fruit,you know the taste,mind is useless in trying to understand taste.. A 14 year old who has never seen a bike will learn ti ride much fatser than a mechanical engineer who also have not seen a bike before..why ???because the 14 year old has become one with bike..no thinking..a vaccum packed entity..the engineer is analysing thinking..and failing miserably!!! The other aspect of your mind is imagination..also no basis for reality you can imagine anything you want..demons..christ..god..etc..this is a construct of your mind ..garbage!!!!.. when thought is dropped ,you are brought to the moment..the only truth is in this moment..no thought exists..plain existence AND experience...the minute you leave the moment...you work thru your inefficient mind ..thinking of the past thru imagination or the future thru logic..you have escaped from reality!!! my advice to you..life is very short..drop every concept..including every religion..come to the moment and experience being alive ..and totally i mean totally absobed in the present ..that is budhist(zen)approach...waking up ....from your miserable dreamlike state..and see beauty around you..smell the paradise ..it is here..not after your death!!!!that is zen budhist promise to you..to see paradise in this world!!! experienc

ara , You seem,to have some aversion,towards,stupid people and it upsets you,hey...rose turns into garbage but....from garbage arises a new rose (i.e. you and your so called opposites-very similiar !! )Concern your self with now !1(never mind pakraduni schmakraduni armenian flag ...crap..)Now and now what can I do ,to help you or anyone else,what can you do help anyone else??compassion is the name of the game..drop your likes and dislikes rise above...then you see the banality of both sides..take a deep breath relax,enjoy life by helping people,and if somebody tells I"m proud of being this or that ...tell him can I buy you a hotdog?bring him to this moment,that is the only thing you have. love you all

Do you understand difference bewtween a concept and reality ???most think they do.. sinplest way is this..close your eyes imagine you rub your hands together..now open you eyes and rub your hands together.. 1st one is a concept nothing to do with the real ..second one is REALITY...al religions are conceptual in nature....you believe in this or in that, anything that makes you feel good ..warm whatever...you have fooled yourself!!!..how to get out of this mess??answer is twofold: 1-always distinguish concept from real. 2-understand that mind doesn't understand anything!!!but your whole understands..your mind in a non-understanding pheneomena..it is a communication device.. If I explain to you the taste of a fruit unknown to you,with every example in the world..you will think that you understand what it tastes like right ?? well wrong you will form a concept about (remember the word about) the taste..But if i place a piece of the fruit in your mouth you suddenly and truly understand what it tastes like !!!! that's reality!! when you go to sleep,does your body ask your mind ,how to the millions of biochemical reactions(of supreme complexity)?? take place ..??NO ! This is why,the mind,talks CRAP all the time,concepts.....wasted energy!!muslims,christians jews...bla bla bla ,we all dance inconceptual thinking,and we choose this or that aspect ,of this imaginary discussion,and we think we know. We know NOTHING,reality,is far more complex than mind's understanding..the you can only understand by experiencing!!! and that is budhist Zen approach. love you all

There is no need to insult any religion ,you could have been born in that country and today you would be insulting your own religion!!! Religions are constructs of the mind(intellect)to help us conquer the fear of death,in reality,it is your illusory ego that is frightened,once you understand that your ego,is a construct of your mind,than you relax....you are not your mind and your ego is non-existent. In this context ,almost all religions are to confort the ego...EXCEPT budhism,where it turns it's attention to more wordly phenomenae,and comprehension of the self,then you don't need to be scared nor feel forced to believe in anything that requires imagination or insults your intelligence. (I teach zen to professionals)

It is not necessary to insult,other religions had you been born,in one of those countries,you probably would be insulting your present religion!!Religions are absolutley constructs of the intellect(no reality non whatsoever),because most people believe that they have a special identity(soul or whatever) one ,desires to live an eternity,therfore we create all kinds of gods pray beg and beg,to live eternally afterthis life as well...truth of the matter is,there is no real self to you,everything is illusory and non stable(e.g.what happenedto your body and mind ,when you were say 12 ??if you die which one will go to heaven 3o year old 80 year body ??you are not your mind !! nor your body nor an eternal soul,you are just a witness!!that hasn't awaken !!