THE SMOKING GUN

[khodja]

Associated Press repeats the Turkish version of the "events of 1915" in the latest article about the movie "Ararat." OK, let us for the sake of argument estblish the premise that the Young Turks were putting down an Armenian resurrection. Yet why did they kill infant children. And why did they confiscate all private Armenian wealth from the survivors, and trandfer it to the leading families of the Ittihadists?

[-e-]

hagarag, correct me if i am wrong-weren't the young turks salonika zionists?

[khodja]

Are you going to hang on to the past or look to the future? My grandmother told me that the Jews in her village were at the bottom of the social ladder and were not allowed to enter the baths. If so, there was probably intense rivalry between Armenians and Jews in Bolise and elsewhere. Many former adversaries have been able to reach a rapproachement. Blanket hatred of Jews will not serve our causes well today. Forgive and move on.

[khodja]

Where are the grandchildren of the Ittihadist leaders today? Are they Jews or are they Moslems?

[wh00t]

Associated Press has a mixed record on reporting the genocide. After April 24, 2002, AP used the term "genocide" unambiguously to describe the events of 1915. They used the term "Armenian genocide" (without quotations) many times and referred to the slaughter as "the genocide". Shame if they are going back to their deceptive ways.

 

[ November 17, 2002, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: wh00t ]

[MJ]

Associated Press is in the habbit of reporting inaccurate information. See for example their earlier report at the Hye Forum titled "Village Idiot found to have high IQ:"

 

/cgi-bin/forum/ultim...11;t=000106;p=2

[Guest Fadi]

Turkish daily news intervuew of Dr. Buyukataman is worth reading(as a joke), I know this post would seem to change the subject of the topic, but since Hagarag started the topic, the subject was meant to be changed. Why am I posting that ? Don't know, though I should post it in the humour section, finaly I decided to post it here.

 

"What is your opinion about the Turkish-Armenian relationship?

 

BUYUKATAMAN- This is a good question. When you say the

Turkish-Armenian relationship, there are two issues. The first

issue is Turkey and Armenia and the other one is the Turks

and the Armenian diaspora [Armenians in "exile"] who live in

the United States. The way I see how relations between the two

countries could improve is if we can show the light to the people

of the diaspora.

 

We do everything to promote Turkey to Armenian and Greek

groups, mostly Armenians. When they hear the name of Turk

or Turkey something triggers in them and they start fighting

regardless of the object if it bears the name of the Turk. This

is not a racist comment. This is a fact. These relations have

triggered some memories implanted in them from their childhood,

false statements, false stories because the Armenian church

wants to keep the Armenians together by creating hatred of the

Turk. The first thing they teach in the kindergarten is "Turks

are dogs." These are the first words and we have checked their

books. From that age onwards the children start to create an image

of the Turk that does not exist. It exists in their mind because

they want to create hate so that they can bring the Armenian

groups together. This is working outside the country. Of course

it is not working in America as far as we can see but these lobby

groups influence them. One reason for that is the people of the

diaspora give most of their income to Armenia.

 

In Armenia there are about two million people and the diaspora

people number much more than that. Over a ten-year period they

were able to get just about $1.5 billion from the U.S. government

for Armenia. We call that the genocide.com industry. They have

created a story and they have gotten help from churches throughout

the world. One percent of the help given by the U.S. to Armenia

returns back to the U.S. and secondarily to Armenian associations

and through them to the politicians in the Armenian lobby who

are successful passing all those billions to Armenia. That

is a good return -- 1 percent and a hundred times more than

that goes to Armenia. What is funny about it is that Armenia

is still a poor country, suffering for money even as it gives

money to politicians who have come under the influence of the

diaspora. So this conflict continues that way. They invented a

genocide to create money for themselves. Unless this is resolved,

relations between Turkey and Armenia may never improve.

 

TDN- Turkey and Armenia have had several problems, especially

economic ones. What is your perspective about these issues? How

could we overcome these problems? Do you think that the work

that has been done is enough?

 

BUYUKATAMAN- In the past there were two different groups Turkey

and Armenia, the Turk and the Armenian diaspora. In the framework

of the relationship between Turkey and Armenia, Turkey always

forgives, you know following the policy of Ataturk. This is the

way we were raised. Nobody told us what happened in the past. We

were told about the Armenian revolution, etc. And that is all.

 

However as long as the Armenian diaspora hates the Turk starting

from primary school, there will be no peace and understanding

because the diaspora in America and in Europe controls Armenia

regardless and the other one sends major amounts of dollars

to feed the politicians. If anybody opposes them, they work

against him. Unless the diaspora accepts the truth as far as this

invented genocide story is concerned, there will be no peace

and understanding. One exception to this is of course if the

Armenian people in Armenia finally get fed up with what's going

on and start setting up rules but this is highly unlikely because

Armenia still is not a civilized or democratic country. It is

still left over from Communist Russia. The same regime continues."

 

[ November 17, 2002, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[khodja]

Gamavor,

 

LOL. Excellent comeback. A thousand bravos to you.

[wh00t]

Domino, you found that article amusing too! I considered posting it but didn't. My favorite "quote":

 

The first thing they teach in the kindergarten is "Turks

are dogs." These are the first words and we have checked their

books.

 

Sure enough I checked my kingergarten books, and there it was: "Turks are dogs." The "doctor" is onto us!

[khodja]

Numerous missionaries, diplomatic officials and even Moslem diplomatic officials documented the wholesale massacres of the Armenians. Waht kind of sick joke is this Turkish doctor playing? My problem does not lie with any myth about the Genocide but about myths of our origins, ancient history and the realities of early Armenian Christianity.

[wh00t]

Hagarag how is your book coming along?

[khodja]

Whoot,

 

Have written two more chapters. I m not a full-time writer and have other responsibilities.

[-e-]

hagarag, i am interested with finding the truth. i care less what the excuses or stories are out there. 'who speaks today of the armenians' was said because too many were afraid to look to the face of the truth. remember, the history is to be learned from so the mistakes will not be repeated.

 

tell me, is your answer yes or no? were the young turks zionists or not. maybe you know something that i don't. if we don't communicate, and if we don't learn from each other, then the chances are the history will be repeated.

[khodja]

Some of the Young Turks were Donmeh or "hidden Jews" from Salonika. There is no doubt that they furthered the interests of their co-religionists toward establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. I do not deny that there was involvement of a number of Turkish Jews in the Genocide. What I question is the value of embarrasing those Jews who are our friends at present with this information. Given what befell the Jews during WWII, such information would be very embarassing. Perhaps this is why certain Jews side with the Turkish denials, lest the deeds of their fellow religionists come to light. Balance this with the fact that it was a Hungarian Jew who embarassed Egoyan into making his latest movie and the numerous Holocaust scholars of Jewish background who signed a letter in the New York Times declaring the Genocide as historical truth.

[Guest Fadi]

quote:

---

Perhaps this is why certain Jews side with the Turkish denials, lest the deeds of their fellow religionists come to light.

---

You can not be more far from the truth. Those "some" Jews that deny the genocide have probably no any idea of some sort of Jewish "consipration[ist theory]" The denial is on two front, believing the myth of the uniqueness, and wanting to keep the supremassy of the word genocide and being the suprem repsentents of suffering, and to please Turkey their only real ally on the region.

 

Those are the reasons why those Jews deny the genocide, it has nothing to do with any participation in WWI in the ellimination of the Armenians.

[-e-]

hagarag, we know that young turkish movement was started and led by the zionists. """why did they have to target THE ARMENIANS?"""

 

[ November 18, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Eduard Markosyan ]

[MosJan]

ENUGH

 

ENUGH with this name-calling and insults to each other

[Munzur]

Hi Eduard, you posed a good question: "we know that young turkish movement was started and led by the zionists. why did they have to target THE ARMENIANS?"

 

Remember that the Ottoman economy was basically in the hands of Greek, Armenian and Jewish merchant elites. So if the Ittihadists were mostly Jewish dönmes, they targeted the Greeks and the Armenians for their properties. But I think there's more to the story because the genocide was too destructive to be interesting economically. After all, dead Armenian merchants weren't 'good business'. Most of the members of Ittihat, especially the intransigent hardcore Turkish-nationalist wing, were Sabetayists and Bektashis (I'll post a list of the most prominent members and their ethno-religious backgrounds soon).

 

Well, İttihat manifested a virulent Turkish nationalism and even threatened the Zionists to come down on Jews as well during WW I. The elimination of the Nili-group by Teşkilât-ı Mahsusa agents is a good example of this fact. But there are Jews and there are Jews. I don't think the Sabetayists were (and are) die-hard Zionists, but it is true that a substantial proportion of the present Turkish elite is ethnically Sabetayist: İsmail Cem, Tansu Çiller, Mesut Yılmaz and many more. These elites DO support Israel, but it can also be 'good old Realpolitik'. The story is complex, I haven't sorted it out yet either, but there's an interesting source that may shed light on the situation:

 

Yair Auron, The Banality of Indifference; Zionism and the Armenian Genocide.

 

Has anyone read this?

[aurguplu]

munzur,

 

i am anxiously waiting for your list of ittihadists' ethnic backgrounds.

 

i know that ismail cem is a dönme, but what is your info re tansu çiller and mesut yılmaz based upon?

 

please let me know.

 

regards,

[Munzur]

Ali,

 

I do know that both Mesut Yilmaz and Tansu Çiller are Masons; I can't remember where I read that they are Sabetayists too (well that's actually not hard to guess since half of the Turkish elite is Sabetayist). I do recall that I read it in an interview with Atilla Ilhan.

 

I found a passage in a historical journal, and although we know that Enver's father was Çerkez, Talat was a Pomak, Said Halim was an Egyptian Arab, the list seems to be more focused on whether the members were Bektasi, Mason, etc. The list is based on a document, written by Halifebaba Turgut Koca:

 

MASONS:

Ali Fuat (Cebesoy), Ağaoğlu Ahmet Bey, Abdurrahman Şeref, Dr.Akil Muhtar (Özden), Abdullah Cevdet, Dr. Bahattin Şakir, Beşir Fuad (İlk pozitivist), Cavit Bey (Maliye Nazırı), Cevat Abbas (Bey), Eşref Sencer Bey (Kuşçubaşı), Edip Servet Bey, Halil (Kut) Paşa, (Enver Paşa’nın amcası), Hüseyin Cahit Yalçın, Halil Şerif Bey, İsmail Canpolat Bey ( Dahiliye Nazırı ), Kara Kemal Bey, Kazım Nami Duru, Mehmet Reşit, Mahmut Şevket Esendal, Nuri (Kıllıgil) Paşa (Enver Paşa’nın kardeşi), Osmancıklı Nuri, Dr. Nihat Reşat Belgevi, Dr. Rıza Nur, Sait Halim Paşa, Şemsettin Günaltay, Dr. Tevfik Şükrü Bey, Talat Küçük (Muşkara), Prof. Veli Bey, Yusuf Akçura, Hüseyin Kadri Bey, Hüseyin Haşim Sanver, Mithat Paşa, Nuri Bey (Yeni Osmanlıcı).

 

BEKTAŞİS:

Ahmet Rıza Bey (Ayan Reisi), Ahmet Nesimi Bey (Hariciye Nazırı), Ali Haydar Mithat, Ali Şefik İzmirli, Ali Rüştü Hersekli, Ali Rıza Kırımi, Asaf Derviş, Ali Rıza Paşa, Gazi Ahmet Muhtar Paşa, İsmet Fazlı Bey, (Debreli) Behçet Efendi, Esat Paşa (Draç mebusu), Eyüp Sabri (Akgöl Bey), Avlonyalı Ferit Paşa, Selanikli Fazlı Necip, Şeyhulislam Ürgüplü Hayri, Hasan Rıza Paşa (Hudeyce mebusu), Çerkez Hayrettin Paşa (Tunuslu), Hilmi Tunalı Bey, Halil Muvaffak Bey, Şair Hüseyin Sıret, Kimyager Hüseyin, Hasan Tosun Bey, Gümülcineli İsmail Bey, İbrahim Temo, Dr. İsmail İbrahim Efendi (Dobrucalı), Kamil Paşa, Lütfi Fikri Bey (Dersim mebusu), Mahmut Paşa (Çürüksulu), Mithat Şükrü Bey (Bleda), Çorum mebusu Muhiddin Bey, Mahmut Nedim Paşa, Giritli Muharrem, Milaslı Murat Asker, Veteriner Mehmet Bey, Mustafa Ragıp,Mustafa Hayri Ürgüplü, Dr. Nazım Bey, Nabi Bey (Yücekök), Ömer Naci (Muallim Naci), İzmir Valisi - Mebusu Rahmi Bey, Rauf Ahmet Bey (İstanbul mebusu), Dr. Rusuhi Bey, Hariciye Nazırı Rıfat Paşa, Refik Bey (Manyasizade Adliye Nazırı), Dr. Rıfat, Eczacı Raşit Tahsin, Reşat Paşa Matlı, Dr. Refik Nevzat Bey, Recep Peker, Binbaşı Sabri Bey, Sezai Bey (Şurayı Ümmet Redaktörü), Bosnalı Veli Bey, Yakub Cemil Bey, Saffet Lütfü Tozan.

 

MELAMİS:

Ahmet Şükrü (Maarif Vekili), Ali Suavi, Ahmet Vefik Paşa, Ahmet Mithat Efendi, Bezmi Nusret (Kaygusuz), Cemal Paşa, Fevzi Çakmak, Hafız Hakkı Paşa, Hüseyin Avni Paşa, Kadir Efendi (Hoca Mehmet Kadir Nasih), Mustafa Asım Efendi, Mehmet Tahir (Bursalı), Damat Mahmut Paşa, Necmettin Molla (Adliye Nazırı), Naili Efendi (Nakşibendi, Şeyh Abdülkadir’in kardeşi), Ömer Seyfettin, Menemenlizade Rıfat Bey, Miralay Sadık Bey, Sami Paşazade Sezai, Saffet Paşa.

 

MASON and BEKTAŞİS:

Ali Fethi (Okyar), Ahmet Bedevi Kuran (R.K.), Cemal Bardakçı, Enver Paşa, Ethem Ruhi Balkan, Fuat Balkan, Niğde Mebusu Hayri Efendi, İhsan Namık Bey, Kazım Karabekir Paşa, Şeyhülislam Musa Kazım Efendi, Dr. Miralay Mehmet Ali Baba, Mehmet Cemil, Namık Kemal, Rıza Tevfik Bölükbaşı, Salih Cimcoz (İstanbul mebusu), Prens Sabahattin Bey, Talat Paşa, Cemal Paşa, Kara Vasıf Bey,Ziya Paşa, Hakkı Baha Bey.

 

- Toplumsal Tarih, vol.97, January 2002, p.16.

[aurguplu]

munzur,

 

şeyhülislam ürgüplü hayri, mustafa hayri ürgüplü and niğde mebusu hayri efendi are the same person (this is not specified in the list above). i am not sure, but it appears the above list contains a number of such doublets.

 

the list does not elucidate one crucial fact, especially concerning the masons and the manner in which masons recruited people and then claimed them to be masons. i shall relate to you a dialogue (real, not made up, name changed for sake of secrecy):

 

a (masonic recruiter)

 

b (hapless recruit):

 

a: hello, dear b, how are things today?

 

b: fine, my dear a, how are things with you?

 

a: fine.

 

a small conversation, nothing unusual, ensues. upon leaving:

 

a: by the way, dear b, congratulations on your decision!

 

b: what decision, my dear a?

 

a: oh! don't have to hide anything from me! you know, the decision to join!

 

b: join what?

 

a: the brotherhood of course! (those in the know would know that "the brotherhood" meant "masonic lodge").

 

b: but i haven't joined it, my dear a?

 

a: oh really, i'm so sorry. but tell me, would you consider doing so, if you were asked to?

 

the "recruit" would then usually say "yes" and be invited to a meeting, after which he was free to attend or not to attend meetings. those recruits who did not attend regularly or at all, but did not express a desire to leave the order were called "uykuda" (asleep), but were nevertheless considered masons and included in the "enrollment list" of the masonic lodge in turkey.

 

there were many such "recruits" in various influential positions in turkey, who chose not to abandon the order outright because they were afraid to take such a clear position against it.

 

so one has to be a bit careful about what these lists really mean.

 

regards,

 

[ November 22, 2002, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: aurguplu ]

[aurguplu]

munzur,

 

by the way, if the above is the ethno-religious list, where are the ethnicities and religions (these are all later muslim sects, or rather followings (they are not like sunnism, shiism, or the judicial subbranches of these (like hanafism, hanbalism, shafiism etc) to which a sizeable part of the population always belonged, moreover, it is known that people frequently belonged (or attended) more than one of these at the same time and sometimes changed allegiance. adherence to these did not affect one's religious or even sectarian affiliation, such as muslim, sunni, and some sects, like the mevlevis, even attracted and accepted non-muslims.

[Guest Fadi]

Munzur, I have some difficulties to follow where you are trying to come out with such a list. There is a simple fact, the genocide has been perpetrated in the name of Turkism and in an extend Islam(both instruments), bringing Masons or so-called Judaistic sects divert the central point.

 

The question you decided to answer was conserning Zionism, not Judaism, and it is evident that Zionism had no benefits over the genocide, a Turkish state has been formed, a state that was made possible from the eradication of the Christian minority particullary the Armenians, this was done to form a Turkish state, to form a new Turkish identity, the centralise Economy and take off the control of economy from the hand of the minorities... all this was more a question of Turkish rather then zionism. Finding the background or the religious believes or the philosophical believes of those that perpetrated the act on the name of Turkism does not make those people more or less Turk and does not permit us to conclude some master mind plan that was outside of the Turkish influential sphere.

 

You mentioned the Nili group, that was meant to be a Jewish intellectual group that found a way to vigoursly condemn the Ittihadist politic more particullary their treatment of the Armenian minorities, documentations and report from those groups conserning the genocide are abound, at that time the Jews were thinking of having a state of their own, a state that in its localisation was far from being in the area's where the Armenians were dreaming having their Independent state.

 

Regards

[Guest Fadi]

Dear Munzur

 

I have read Auron's book, while he refer to the implication of some Jews in the Abdul Hamidian massacres, the date we are talking about(1915 and later), he is much centering his book concerning the Jewish affairs, such as their aim to creat a jewish state, their way of pleasing the ottoman government, their influence, their indifference, there is no much thing such as an Jewish implication as a "Jew" in the name of Zionism, to even concieve or influence the Ottoman on the eradication of the Armenians.

 

Furthermore, you are right about Balkan Turks, and as well, the Tartars. One of the designers of the Pan-Turanistic ideology was a Tartar, journalist and a political leader, Yusuf Akçura, he left his leadership in Russia, and joined the Ottoman new political movement after 1908, and participated in this revolution, he was the founder of “Türk Yurdu” the Organ of the Panturanism, with the banner “Turkish Hearth”( Türk Pcagi). He studied in Paris, learned the Pan-Germanism, and the “Racial Superiority” ideologies of Germanic ideologues. He started the first edition of the “Türk Yurdu”, quoting: “The Rulers of the universe have always been the representatives of only two great nations – Turks and Germans.” Also brought up in S.A. Zenkovsky, Pan-Turanism and Islam in Russia(Cambridge, MA, 1967), that treat “Akçurian” Movement, and the inspiration of the Caucasian Muslims to join the Ottoman revolution and expend on the East. Akçura was a known anti-Armenian, bringing the necessity to eliminate Armenia: “It is necessary to destroy Armenia which the Allies want to erect as a barrier between the two brotherly segments of Turkdom, Anatolia and the Caucasus.”(René Pinon, “L’Offensive de l’Asie” Revue des deux mondes( April 15, 1920)). Zenkovsky, note: “the massacres in 1914-1916 of one and a half million Armenians was largely conditioned by the desire of the Young-Turks to eliminate the Armenian obstacle.”

 

Those ideologies were alien to the Anatolian Turks, they were brought by outside, those ideologues have a lot more to do with the final solution than any sort of "Zionist" plan. This is why I think that bringing up any "Jewish" linking or influences on the final solution is diverting with the central aim of the extermination.

 

Regards

 

[ November 22, 2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Munzur]

First off I’d like to say that I posted the above list because it was relevant (concerning the topic of ethnic backgrounds of the authors of the genocide); it’s a document that can be evaluated and does not represent the way I think. However, allow me to add that ethnic background can never explain genocide-planning – to contend this would be a very Goldhagenian argument and thus, short-sighted. I wonder if anyone has read Yair Auron’s book (I only read one of his articles concerning this same issue), because I believe he’s the man to explain the Zionist-Jewish-Sabetayist link with the Genocide. Frankly, I think theories like “the Jews helped the Turks with the destruction of the Greek and Armenian population; 20 years later the person that designed Auschwitz was an Armenian” are based upon racist inspiration and can be refuted easily.

 

Apart from this, Domino is absolutely right when he says that “the genocide was perpetrated in the name of Turkism.” As a matter of fact, these are the exact words that member of parliament Nalbandian spoke in 1918. Actually, it’s a very interesting discussion: how Turkish is a converted Christian that claims to be a Turk? Moreover, who is a ‘Turk’? One who ethnically is, or one who claims to be? This discussion is inevitable, because the average Turkoman peasant from a random Central-Anatolian village (let’s say: Konya) would be ethnically Turkish but perhaps did not commit genocidal crimes or did not even profit from the ‘positive externalities’ of the Genocide (how morbid this even sounds). The enactment of the Genocide wouldn’t put him in the accused corner, but would inculpate Talat Paşa, who was a Pomak.

 

I think Taner Akçam made a good but hasty effort in his book (İnsan Hakları ve Ermeni Sorunu; İttihat ve Terakki’den Kurtuluş Savaşı’na) to solve this question. He uses the Weberian sociological term ‘power elite’ to describe that it’s not a simple matter of “Turks killing Armenians,” but of a power elite, claiming to act on behalf of a nebulous classification as a nation. Also, Tessa Hofmann even concluded that the main perpetrators were Balkan Muslims, Kurds, and Caucasian Muslims and that the actual role of Central-Anatolian Turkoman villagers/city-dwellers was negligible. Differentiation of ethnicity is of vital importance, as I tried to demonstrate in another thread about the Kurds (namely, Alevi, Yezidi and Sunni, or koçer vs. gundî, each with totally different collective identities, attitudes towards and roles in the Genocide).

 

Still, the fact remains that there were a lot of people that claimed to act on behalf of nation A, and destroyed nation B. We should remember that in genocide, actors are morally assessed on their roles as perpetrator, victim or bystander (Raul Hilberg), and the intensity of performing their roles; not as anything else.

 

Munzur