Rubo Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 Hagarag does it occur to you that you constantly put Jews before Armenians and desperately trying to make Armenians some kind of bastardized Jewish tribe and therefore does it occur perhaps Agassi and Cher may not want to be part of the organization which has “Armenians for Jews” as a platform? (I hope you don’t start one anytime soon) You again generalize to extreme and I am not sure if you can see it. Majority of Armenians in Diaspora are in the process of sucking up the benefits of assimilation and prosperity and Armenian issues are not a priority. The small percentage that do participate in our affairs range from extreme to moderate: AAA has lot of influence and lobby power and they are pretty moderate, personally I support ANCA that just a preference.To conclude no need to panic! We are doing just fine in Washington considering our limited budget and volunteers. I just hope for every nasty, negative comment about our community members, once in a while we do acknowledge those people who quietly do work for Armenian cause without bitching. Hagarag stop the whining! It is becoming repetitious.Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 13, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 Hardlined Armenians/hardlined Turks - basically would like to see the other side all dead IMO. So perhaps any Armenians and Turks who actually talk civily with each other should be considered as a major step in the right direction. Like all Armenians I understand our bitterness towards the Turks and regarding our (lack of) situation in (our ancient home of) Anatolia...and the strong feeling that it is our homeland and we rightfully belong there...etc etc - but idealism - on its own - gets us no where. We must deal in (geopolitic) reality and with realism (regarding what might be expected with/from the Turks). I find the type of attitudes expressed by Hovsep very distasteful and counterproductive (on so many levels) - they remind me so much of certain Turkish posters in other forums who admit to the Genocide - but express that they wish they had finished the job...(and that we deserved such just for being insolent Armenians )etc. Thinking that Armenians are going to somehow persevere in any type of (conventional) war with Turkey at any point in the foreseable future is a pipe dream of the tallest order. So we must deal with the Turks - on all levels - if we hope for any progress. (war is just not an option...unless the goal is suicide...and even if it were "winnable" (not)...at what cost....)And how can we deal with the Turks if we don't try to understand them and their perspectives? (and they are not barbarians...and haven't been for a very long time...even if we may think that elements of their culture and their recent history of marrauders and empire overlords may make them suseptible to behaviors and attitudes that could be condusive to perpetuation of Genocide against a minority group and reluctance to admit it. And even then I would argure that much of this was circumstansial [and the result of a great many factors]- and certainly not racial per se). And if these Turkish perspectives differ from our own (which they most certainly will) - we should refrain from a knee-jerk immediate counter - instead we should try to understand why they would hold such views - and don't also assume that we know all and they no nothing - and then we should make our points/deliver our perspective in as constructive a manner as possible. This is just my opinion of course...but I think I have had at least limited success with such an approach. I know that we all feel pain and varrying degrees of (justified) animosity towards the Turks (as a group) - but at least we should try to rise above this - particualry when dealing with individuals - because people are humans first - before they are Turks, Armenians or anything else...and basically we are all more alike then different and deserve common respect and courtesy. So I ask that we put aside our prejudices just a bit. If we can't there will never be progress on this issue (IMO). [ September 13, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubo Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 Thinking that Armenians are going to somehow persevere in any type of (conventional) war with Turkey at any point in the foreseable future is a pipe dream of the tallest order. So we must deal with the Turks - on all levels - if we hope for any progress. (war is just not an option...unless the goal is suicide...and even if it were "winnable" (not)...at what cost....) I agree with you Thoth 100%. I often battled our extremers on this. Reality by definition should be assessed realistically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Thoth and Rubo jan, again, though I understand where you're coming from, I don't find it realistic: 1. We CANNOT blindly put our trust into a country that has treated us the way they have until now. 2. As Armenians, we are entitled to be suspicious of Turks and Turkey, no matter how extreme our point of view may be. What good have the Turks done for Armenians in the last 800 years? How could we NOT be suspicious? 3. As long as Turkey sets the preconditions that it does, Armenians CANNOT and SHOULD NOT take Turks and Turkey seriously. 4. Re: Land claims: Those Armenians who are asking for land are asking for uninhabited territories. You tell me what benefit the Turks are gaining from their continued confiscation of uninhabited territories, where hundreds of thousands of Armenians were brutally slaughtered just 87 years ago. Will their power really collapse or be in potential danger if it becomes a tenth smaller than it is now? 5. NKR: How come Ali doesn't mention the rape and destruction of Nakhichevan, but instead concentrates on the atrocities committed by Armenians against Azeris? I can go on and on and on, but I hope you get the point that we CANNOT and SHOULD NOT trust Turks of Ali's kind, not matter how painful that sounds to some of you. He IS a typical Turkish denier. No more, no less. Because if he wasn't, he'd be blowing a WHOLE different tune. Nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Nairi Jan, You have mentioned a very important factor about Armenian life everywhere. Can we operate our community like a democracy, where all views are appreciated? Or will we continue to place the views of the wealthy merchants and conservative church leaders on a pedestal and shut everone else up? As for Ali, he is a VERY progressive and intelligent Turk. He is, however, loyal to his country and it's future. He is intelligent enough to realize that the ongoing Armenian/Turkish rift will not only be a detriment to the future well-being of Armenia, but also to Turkey reaching it's full potential. That he would consider marrying a Christian is indicative of his open-mindedness. How many Armenians accept the fact that my brother and cousins married Jews? I can attest that their marriages were happier than mine (to an Armenian). Ali is a fine fellow who does not desrve the treatment he has gotten from a few of you here. Given previous behavior, I am not surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hagarag:Can we operate our community like a democracy, where all views are appreciated? Or will we continue to place the views of the wealthy merchants and conservative church leaders on a pedestal and shut everone else up?I'd like to hear YOUR opinion on this one, if you don't mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:I am particualrly disapointed in your increasingly hostile tone Boghos. Sure - Ali may hold some views that we as Armenians find offensive...but don't tell me you've never shown the bottom of your shoe to an Arab! And yes - we should be concerned with offending Turks - as not all are truly deniers in any informed sense - they are people - our brothers even in a sense - and regardless our conduct reflects who we are - and it disgusts me to see us emulate that which we claim to despise. Regardless of our differences civility (except perhaps with the most blatant types) is always called for - and I think that we must learn how tro cooperate with the Ali's of Turkey - and here with Ali in particualr - I mean really now - look what he is saying - it is in no way so unreasonable - in fact I comend him for his (core) positions on the Genocide. Lets not pass up the oppurtunity for dialouge and being able to appreciate perspectives other then our own. Let be civil - and stop the nastiness - it is uncalled for (with Ali) - IM(VSH)O.Winston, I am once more disappointed but not susprised with your stance. People much more patient and articulated than me have already responded to Ali (TBs most recent post, and also Arpa, a gift to this forum). I see no value in a dialogue with Ali just because he is a Turk. I do not choose my interlocutors based on race, faith or whatever, that is quite obvious. I have already made very clear my views that he simply doesn´t know enough about the issues at hand and his often revealed aggressive posture shows his contempt for Armenians and an undertone of cruelty. He is just a sad punk with too much time on his hands making a fool of people like you. I do not time for that and find it quite insulting. I have even less time for those self ascribed protectors of good values and morality. False prophets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 14, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Well I'm sorry to hear you feel that way Boghos - and obviously I don't agree. Just a question or two though - Do you see any value at all in communication with Turks on this issue? If so which Turks? Are there really any out there who hold what you might consider to be acceptable views (outside perhaps the Taner Ackams - who obviously apeal to us but aren't hardly in good graces with his/their own...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 14, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by nairi:Thoth and Rubo jan, again, though I understand where you're coming from, I don't find it realistic: 1. We CANNOT blindly put our trust into a country that has treated us the way they have until now. Who ever said that - certaily not I. Trust Turkey - you must be kidding - I trust them only to act according to their twisted/perverted logic on this issue - to protect their false image of innocence at all costs. I'm refering to treatment/interations with individuals - and I never said trust - I said be courteous and perhaps listen - I do not think that we have the complete monopoly on knowledge, wisdom or facts... quote:Originally posted by nairi:2. As Armenians, we are entitled to be suspicious of Turks and Turkey, no matter how extreme our point of view may be. What good have the Turks done for Armenians in the last 800 years? How could we NOT be suspicious? OK - I can entirely agree with this - for the most part quote:Originally posted by nairi:3. As long as Turkey sets the preconditions that it does, Armenians CANNOT and SHOULD NOT take Turks and Turkey seriously.Do you refer here to Turkey the nations or Turks. I agree witht he former - but my point is that we must at least give some of the latter a chance. We cannot hold the position that no Turk is capable of a valid (or serious) position or that no Turk is worth diologue with quote:Originally posted by nairi:4. Re: Land claims: Those Armenians who are asking for land are asking for uninhabited territories. You tell me what benefit the Turks are gaining from their continued confiscation of uninhabited territories, where hundreds of thousands of Armenians were brutally slaughtered just 87 years ago. Will their power really collapse or be in potential danger if it becomes a tenth smaller than it is now? I do not agree that this is the Armenian position on Land claims. And even if so this is still a very complicated issue - very much so - with little or no precedence that I am aware of (doesn't mean that perhaps some kind of arranhgement might be works out - but we have oh so very far to go before we get there - and oif land claims automatically raise hackles among Turks (understandably so) perhaps we need to soft peddle this issue a whole lot more (if we have any hope/aim/care for progress). etc Originally posted by nairi:[QB]5. NKR: How come Ali doesn't mention the rape and destruction of Nakhichevan, but instead concentrates on the atrocities committed by Armenians against Azeris? Well I totally agree with you here. He is spouting the propaganda from the Azeri side that in fact is incredibly present in Turkey etc and purposfly ignores the facts. This issue has become an emotional counterweight for the Turks - "well the Armnenians are commiting Genocide right now - (and we can be igdignent about it) - and so what we may (or may not) have done was nothing so special"...etc. The Turkish/Azeri position on this conflict/issue is so devoid of balance with the facts I really don't know what to say about it (except to Ali - please read both sides - not just the very biased and somewhat falsified Azeri one). I think that the magazine AIM has done a comendable job covering these issues in a very balanced way (for an Armenian rag no less) quote:Originally posted by nairi:I can go on and on and on, but I hope you get the point that we CANNOT and SHOULD NOT trust Turks of Ali's kind, not matter how painful that sounds to some of you. He IS a typical Turkish denier. No more, no less. Because if he wasn't, he'd be blowing a WHOLE different tune. Nairi I do not agreee with your contentions concerning Ali - not at all. I mean come on now - have you ever talked to real Turkish deniers? Ali is a gem in comparison. And who said trust? I say talk (and be civil). I disageee with much of what Ali holds on these issues and I see some real problems with his outlook....but I've dealt with much worse (and have brought them around to more acceptable positions). If we give up on Ali - we might as well just give up (IMO) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 14, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Oh and Nairi - I agree that the Turks position on lands is perhaps overblown - and that they use this idea that all Armenians are after is their lands against us. I am skeptical concerning Armenians (from the West) actualy going back there in great numbers (though I might wish to - to retire perhaps). Regardless the relevance of this as an issue is still a long way off. Our putting it at the forefront just plays into the oppositions hands - IMO [ September 14, 2002, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:I'm refering to treatment/interations with individuals - and I never said trust - I said be courteous and perhaps listen - I do not think that we have the complete monopoly on knowledge, wisdom or facts...Oh, I agree that we don't have a monopoly on knowledge, wisdom or facts, and I would like to be more civilized toward Ali, except unfortunately, he doesn't say much for me to be civilized to. quote:Do you refer here to Turkey the nations or Turks. I agree witht he former - but my point is that we must at least give some of the latter a chance. We cannot hold the position that no Turk is capable of a valid (or serious) position or that no Turk is worth diologue withI'm referring to the largest majority of modern Sunni Turks and their country. Excuse my prior generalization. quote:I do not agree that this is the Armenian position on Land claims. And even if so this is still a very complicated issue - very much so - with little or no precedence that I am aware of (doesn't mean that perhaps some kind of arranhgement might be works out - but we have oh so very far to go before we get there - and oif land claims automatically raise hackles among Turks (understandably so) perhaps we need to soft peddle this issue a whole lot more (if we have any hope/aim/care for progress). etcI don't agree with land claims either, however, I don't appreciate Turkey's arrogant attitude toward Armenians either. The least they could do is show a mite of compassion. I can almost guarantee that if Turkey ever begs us to return, most Armenians will decline the offer. It's more a moral issue than a realistic one. Our monuments are decaying in a country that cares more about power and dominance than culture. I think those Armenians who raise their voice have the right to complain. quote:I do not agreee with your contentions concerning Ali - not at all. I mean come on now - have you ever talked to real Turkish deniers? Ali is a gem in comparison. And who said trust? I say talk (and be civil). I disageee with much of what Ali holds on these issues and I see some real problems with his outlook....but I've dealt with much worse (and have brought them around to more acceptable positions). If we give up on Ali - we might as well just give up (IMO)Sorry, Thoth, but unfortunately, yes, I have met and spoken to plenty of real (professional) deniers. I know their tricks inside out. Ali typifies them exactly, although he may not be a professional. However, as I've said before, ignorance is no longer an excuse for me. You may then wonder why I'm so unkind to Ali if I've spoken to so many more deniers. All I can say to that is: I'm still trying to find a way to get through to them. I've been nice, I've been compassionate, I've agreed with them, disagreed with them in a civilized manner, used complex language as well as simple, I've insulted and offended them worse than I have ever treated Ali, but all to no avail. Ali is merely another exercise for me, but since I haven't been able to get through to him either so far (even though I've been nice, civilized and compassionate, as well as nasty, honest and harsh in the end) I've already planned to give up on him. Trying to have a civilized discussion with a denier is like trying to reform a psychopath that can no longer use help. This is a fact that I've been confronted with ever since I started having discussions with (real) deniers. To me, Ali is no exception. He's as ruthless and inflexible as all of his other contemporaries. Nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 14, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Well Nairi - I understand you positions - I just can't totally share them - concerning Ali and concerning Turks in general. Sure - I get frustrated and angry like you - but I stll try not to generalize and to treat every encounter etc as unique and as I've said I have had some success - though I admit it takes an almost extorordinary Turk to go against the indoctrination and peer pressure and to be able to accept the negative things/history about their own...Don't give up. And concerning Ali (if he still continues to post) - try to read his whole message, and his underlying positions - and not just concentrate on what points you may disageree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH: And concerning Ali (if he still continues to post) - try to read his whole message, and his underlying positions - and not just concentrate on what points you may disageree with.Oh, trust me. I concentrate on every single word he writes, and unfortunately his underlying positions do not escape me. But I respect your point of view. Thanks. Nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:Well I'm sorry to hear you feel that way Boghos - and obviously I don't agree. Just a question or two though - Do you see any value at all in communication with Turks on this issue? If so which Turks? Are there really any out there who hold what you might consider to be acceptable views (outside perhaps the Taner Ackams - who obviously apeal to us but aren't hardly in good graces with his/their own...)Yes, of course I see value in communicating with Turks. I see value in discussing a number of issues but very little when it comes to AG. I much prefer someone like Filiz who has a clear, simple position rather than all this pseudo-enlightened pretensely politically correct debate. You see this is not the UN club at Jefferson High, and we are not going to solve anything here. Ali and I are alumni of the same school system, indeed one devoted to international understanding, we simply have a different outlook and moral stand. Armenia is not my pet project, I am not an internet warrior. I am just an Armenian interested in my people and my country wherever they are. If you find comfort in the fact that Ali is more reasonable than other Turks you have met around, so be it. We should be more interested in Armenia and Armenians than in Turkey. I have Turkish friends as I have Argentine or Canadian friends. But I am not going to waste time trying to sound cute on the Net by being friendly to Turks (and implying that I am a warm soul trying to solve the world problems). You seem to believe that there should be a special place for Turks just because they choose to come here. I do not. Needles to say realism is essential when it comes to politics, that is precisely the reason why AG is not up for discussion. Common sense and some knowledge of history tells you everything you need to know about it. It is a fact and not subject to this idiotic sedition charges. It is quite a pity that you miss out on the essence of what has been recently discussed here. I do not want to sound harsh, but your attitude belittles our history, you just don´t realize it, or feel it. But enough is enough, we have met in this and other forae several times, I thought my positions were quite clear. I guess I was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:Well I'm sorry to hear you feel that way Boghos - and obviously I don't agree. Just a question or two though - Do you see any value at all in communication with Turks on this issue? If so which Turks? Are there really any out there who hold what you might consider to be acceptable views (outside perhaps the Taner Ackams - who obviously apeal to us but aren't hardly in good graces with his/their own...)Yes, of course I see value in communicating with Turks. I see value in discussing a number of issues but very little when it comes to AG. I much prefer someone like Filiz who has a clear, simple position rather than all this pseudo-enlightened pretensely politically correct debate. You see this is not the UN club at Jefferson High, and we are not going to solve anything here. Ali and I are alumni of the same school system, indeed one devoted to international understanding, we simply have a different outlook and moral stand. Armenia is not my pet project, I am not an internet warrior. I am just an Armenian interested in my people and my country wherever they are. If you find comfort in the fact that Ali is more reasonable than other Turks you have met around, so be it. We should be more interested in Armenia and Armenians than in Turkey. I have Turkish friends as I have Argentine or Canadian friends. But I am not going to waste time trying to sound cute on the Net by being friendly to Turks (and implying that I am a warm soul trying to solve the world problems). You seem to believe that there should be a special place for Turks just because they choose to come here. I do not. Needles to say realism is essential when it comes to politics, that is precisely the reason why AG is not up for discussion. Common sense and some knowledge of history tells you everything you need to know about it. It is a fact and not subject to this idiotic sedition charges. It is quite a pity that you miss out on the essence of what has been recently discussed here. I do not want to sound harsh, but your attitude belittles our history, you just don´t realize it, or feel it. But enough is enough, we have met in this and other forae several times, I thought my positions were quite clear. I guess I was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 14, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 Well Boghos i agree that these various supposed counters to the Genocide such as claims of the sedition of Armenians are non-sensicle - but there are plenty of others who are swayed by such counter-charges etc. Thus I do see an obligation - as one who possesses some facts on thi sissue to debate the points. I know that you have expressed that you feel this is worthless and that there is no debate - I understand your position. But at the same time I beleive that left unchecked Turks and others will come to beleive that there is truth with these charges/excusses. Well I see some value in demonstrating otherwise. And I see value in diologue with Turks - and certainly not just on the Genocide issue - but certainly it is a primnary issue between Armeniasn and Turks and one that I think most Armenians are not satidfied with the status quo and wish for change (recognition and more...). I have full confidence that Ali is a Turk who is more progrssive in his views on this issue and could be a conduit to enact some change in the views of other Turks - I see this as a good thing. Are there some problems (form my perspective) with his views - yes And hads he recenty perhaps displayed some arrogance or combatitvness etc - yes Perhaps - but having read through the posts I certainly see that and more comming back at him. I think we Armenians are sometimes blind to how we come accross to others. that somehow our (certainly righteous) moral indignation is a sheild for us to shut out anything else - any other views or perspectives. Certainly Turks and others often express views that we obviously find distasteful and difficult to deal with - but Ali - for the most part does not strike me as someone who is just playing with us or such as you suggest. Heh - but you are an adult and are plenty bright enough to make up your own mind - just don't accuse me of being blind or weak or whatever it is youare saying just because I see this issue differently then you. So OK - we are both disapointed in one another....fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:Well Boghos i agree that these various supposed counters to the Genocide such as claims of the sedition of Armenians are non-sensicle - but there are plenty of others who are swayed by such counter-charges etc. Thus I do see an obligation - as one who possesses some facts on thi sissue to debate the points. I know that you have expressed that you feel this is worthless and that there is no debate - I understand your position. But at the same time I beleive that left unchecked Turks and others will come to beleive that there is truth with these charges/excusses. Well I see some value in demonstrating otherwise. And I see value in diologue with Turks - and certainly not just on the Genocide issue - but certainly it is a primnary issue between Armeniasn and Turks and one that I think most Armenians are not satidfied with the status quo and wish for change (recognition and more...). I have full confidence that Ali is a Turk who is more progrssive in his views on this issue and could be a conduit to enact some change in the views of other Turks - I see this as a good thing. Are there some problems (form my perspective) with his views - yes And hads he recenty perhaps displayed some arrogance or combatitvness etc - yes Perhaps - but having read through the posts I certainly see that and more comming back at him. I think we Armenians are sometimes blind to how we come accross to others. that somehow our (certainly righteous) moral indignation is a sheild for us to shut out anything else - any other views or perspectives. Certainly Turks and others often express views that we obviously find distasteful and difficult to deal with - but Ali - for the most part does not strike me as someone who is just playing with us or such as you suggest. Heh - but you are an adult and are plenty bright enough to make up your own mind - just don't accuse me of being blind or weak or whatever it is youare saying just because I see this issue differently then you. So OK - we are both disapointed in one another....fine.I agree with some of your ideas. But I think we shouldn´t overestimate our role here. No hard feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 Hagarag jan. Ali dose not want to see his country reduced in size,i understand that,Ali have to undrestand that my country is reduced in size,I did go to Armenia and look across the border i cant describe my feelings to you,knowing that my ancesters lived there from bigining of time,and someone that butcherd most of them is enjoying living there.Yes ali recognises AG on condition that we recgnise that we commited genoside against his people what a pitty, so now we are even,and then ""No deal if you want the land come and get it"" Do you know what that means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 Remember the story in the Bible,by the way it was written by Jews,and Eve took the apple and ate and gave it to Adam who ate too,and both were kicked out of Paradise, remember who gave them the apple.i think this guy Ali is offering us the apple.You can eate it Hagarag i am not going to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 16, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 Yes exactly - don't eat the apple - stay ignorant - stay a slave...who would want that. And I suggest you read the original Summerian version of this story that was lifted and edited for your Bible - it makes much more sense...All hail Thoth/Enki - giver of knowledge...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:Yes exactly - don't eat the apple - stay ignorant - stay a slave...who would want that. And I suggest you read the original Summerian version of this story that was lifted and edited for your Bible - it makes much more sense...All hail Thoth/Enki - giver of knowledge...LOLCommon give us the full version! Eating the "apple" is so obviously the US TV Movie version of things!!! Like when Arnold says "Baloney" when his mouth obviously said something else ... or "Get your self To Mars" ... I was watching Total Recal for the 100th time on TV ... they completely butchered the movie ... by the way since when is "ass" a bad word? But the best one was when they changed: "screw you pal" to "slap you pal"!!! That sounded so gay (it was another movie) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 Oh wait ... on second thought, if it invovles not swallowing the "apple" which the "snake" gave to eve, then forget it ... don't wanna know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 16, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 Seaphen - you'll have to read it on your own and decide for yourself - but yes - the apple version (and being kicked out of "paradise" is indeed the TV Movie version. I believe if you read the epic of Gilgamesh you will find the original (an earlier "noah's arc" story is also included..in fact most all of Genesis was lifted and very purposfly reworded to cahnge key meanings...etc etc - yes all (flawed) works of man...and who does this foul tempered, self centered and overly demanding Hebrew god think he is anyway - I say F-off and leave us alone...or I would if I truly believed that he plaugued us...(in fact back in my college days [20+ years ago...] I used to do a performance piece [orignally for some Religious studues course I was taking) called F God...I got an "A" for it and my Yale Divinity School prof used to try to get me to perform it for his other students/classes...it included some break dancing, aving about of certain middle fingers and screaming FU asehole quite loadly and often...etc - very good fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 16, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Sip:Oh wait ... on second thought, if it invovles not swallowing the "apple" which the "snake" gave to eve, then forget it ... don't wanna know <img border="0" alt="[eek]" title="" src="smilies/eek.gif" />LOL - neither do our friends Hovsep and (all the rest...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 i'm still there there are several points that i feel the need to address as i find it shocking thatasome misunderstandings prevail after so much discussion: 1. i as a person have never said that i drop the ag denial on condition that you drop the land claims. if you recall, i had accepted the ag from the outset, way before this particular thread got started. whether ag did happen or not - and it did - will not depend on anyone's acceptance and denial of it, nor will it depend on our differing positions re the lands. 2. as i had said before, i am not here for idle talk but with a view to eventually participating in something that will contribute to the ending of the blood feud between us. in order to achieve this, one must concentrate on realisable goals and projects. in my opinion it is eventually realisable to get turkey as a nation and state to recognise the ag, apologise, pay compensation for, allow for resettlement, but it is not realisable - and therefore realistic - to ask it to cede land. i prefer to concentrate my efforts on what is realisable. and i see that my nation cannot be made to accept the ag unless and until the land claims drop first. this is the underlying reason of my proposal that you drop the land claims if you want to see turkey accept the ag. and to maintain that i am a denier in this forum of all places is an insult to my intelligence. what am i here to do? tell all of you guys, descendants of victims of genocide that there was no genocide, it was all you imagination? 3. it is stated here many times that turks took the land from the armenians. wrong. turks took it from the byzantine greeks (remember romanos diogenes?). to te best of my knowledge there was precious little fighting with the armenians, and there was more than one occasion when the two nations cooperated in warfare. mj had at some point commented that not at any time in history were armenians defeated by turks in battle, this, although perhaps not totally accurate, is not that far from the truth, as there were not all that many battles between us to begin with. 4. to say that the land is yours and not ours is inaccurate on at least one account other than the right of the sword: we came into anatolia almost 1,000 years ago, and mixed with the local population to such an extent that we are really turkish-speaking anatolians with some (few) central asian genes, not unlike you being armenian-speaking anatolians with some (even fewer) balkan genes). an enormous amount of our culture covering all aspects of human life are anatolian native. our houses, our dress (well, that's changed now), our music, our visual arts, our food, our popular religion (as opposed to "high" religion) are all predominantly anatolian. recent genetic research in practically all cases show that we, the anatolian turks of today, are lineal descendants of the people who inhabited chatalhuyuk and hacilar and similar neolithic settlements. in fact, you don't have to go as far as lab experiments, all you have to do is look at our faces. so who is kicking out whom, and on what moral grounds? 5. i understand armenian indignation at seeing their historical sites such as ani, ararat and aghtamar off-limits. we lived the same when central asia was under soviet rule. well, the issue is being relaxed now (even with ani as far as i can see) and if one day all these troubles are over and borders are removed you will be able to visit all these places and maybe even buy houses there (a californian armenian has already bought a hotel in van and called it hotel vartan after his son). 6. somebody (sorry forgot who) commented on how nice it was to converse with filiz (if i paraphrase correctly), well, it was you who kicked her out. does this not say more about you than it does about filiz? 7. some people here have posted stuff that i am out here to really deny the genocide, that i am a typical denier, that i am no different from the rest, that i hate you all, that i see the armenians with contempt, that i am aggressive and threatening, that i am just a barbarian like all the others of my ilk, etc. etc. to these all i have to say is the following: i) if you think i am a denier, then you either do not know what denial means, or have never talked to a denier. ii) if you really think i am no different from the rest, i suggest you to take a poll, and if it turns out that the majority thinks that way, then i'll quit the forum. i don't like being in places where i am not wanted. iii) i am not aggressive and threatening. but what on earth do you expect me to say to someone who says to me "get the hell out of there where you have been living for almost a millennium, and give it to me"? being nonaggressive does not mean being meek and doing whatever you want me to do. i have my own, and will hold on to it. iv) i see a disturbing parallel between the attitude of some people here commenting on my "progress" and that of the colonial europeans in africa, asia, australia and the americas. please don't forget that i) we are descendants of a nation that built an empire and kept it going for over six centuries, and an empire is not built solely by the sword, ii) i am not "retarded", so there is no question of talking about "progress". we have very serious and explosive issues at hand about which we both have passionately held positions, and it is not "progress" if i move in your direction or you in mine. i hvae never referred to anyone's acceptance of any of my positions as "progress" and i shall have none of it comingfrom the other side. plus, there is no universally accepted and APPLIED criteria on issues such as land claims, so what progress are you talking about? v) you seem to overlook one crucial prerequisite of negotiation: when you accept to negotiate you automatically accept that you cannot make the other side accept ALL of your positions, just as you cannot be expected to accept ALL of his positions. you accept NONE of my positions (other than those that are the same as yours) and you expect me to accept ALL of your positions. do you think you will get anywhere with this? 8) just out of curiosity: suppose you get eastern anatolia. what are you going to do with the 10 million + turks and an even larger number of kurds? don't forget: it takes two to tango, and we have to tango, whether we like it or not. and we don't like it any more than you do. 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