Turkish Embassy Disinformation

[nairi]

[Boghos]

[Arpa]

Dear Ali.

[Boghos]

I think we differ on the sequence of events. Turkey´s genocide denial is not related to non-existent land claims...

[Arpa]

Dera Ali,

[Arpa]

Dear Ali,

[Arpa]

Dear Ali,

[Arpa]

Sorry! My system is playing games on me again.

 

Dear Ali,

Are you sure your grandmother's name is not Armenuhi Armenian?

I don't don't really read all your points.

First there was Abdul Hamid/Ottoman, then Kemal/Domne/Turk, Inonu/European, Menderes/Greek?, Ciller (the blond/freckled/Bosnian?)... Did I leave out any?

And now, Ali and his ilk of bleeding heart Turk.

Please tell us something new!

Like, when and if Ankara will acknowledge Yerevan as an equal parner, establish diplomatic ties and, the coward that they are, stop hiding behind Baku. Ankara, as astute as they are, was caught off guard when Yerevan became independant. They were not alone, Yerevan was caught off guard too.

Come off it and confess. As far as Ankara was concerned the Armenian question was finally and definitively resolved when, 800 years of failed attempt of subjugation had been left to the all encompassing new "world order of internationalism". Even the author's ilk did not believe and practice it, just as they never subscribed to the "new world order preached by Yeshua'". Ankara was caught off guard! And she does not know how to deal with (Armenian) reality. We are still here and don't intend to go away soon. Thank your Crsecent and Star that there came along an Aliev to hide under whose smelly pants, an excuse that even Enver and Talaat could never dream.

What does the war in Artsakh have to do with Ankara? Have we attacked Igdir, Aghuri, Ani or Kars?

Watch out!

That goose beak of a land link with Nakhijevan can be blocked with one tank and blown away with a specteular Chinese fireworks.

You may claim cousinship, with Heidar.

Really? When did pesople speaking the same dailect become kssing cousins? Is Saddam a cousin of Sabah?

Even the Irish have not been so lucky to find excuses like the AG, land and property reparations to hide behind. A struggle of self determination and reappropriation of lost lands proves that we are not dead. Disapppointed? Remember the "In Kind"??

I have called Armenians "cowards", but the word pales when compared with the cowardice of the Turk!

Go ahead.

Deny the Genocide, shirk the resposnibility of reparation of life and property.

Play with words.

Laugh at us.

Wait for a new regime in Ankara?

Toy with us.

You may laugh like a hyena or howl like a (Grey) wolf....

 

When the Ottoman Empire finally hits the dust....

She will! You will see!

 

THE LAST LAUGH WILL BE OURS!!!.

[Twilight Bark]

First of all, the absence of presence of independent Armenia at the time of the Genocide is irrelevant. Instead of embracing Armenians as part of its population, Turkey chose to exterminate them. If a country cannot be trusted to provide a section of its population with a reasonable level of human rights (such as the right to live, to begin with), it loses its right to govern them. Can you do it the second time around? You don't seem to think so. In fact, you don't think it is a necessary skill for Turkey to acquire.

Second, there are no official land claims. Nonexistent official claims are impossible to retract officially. And nonofficial "demands" cannot be retracted, as they simply reflct the private thoughts and wishes of private individuals. Who has the power to lobotomize Armenian brains, or tell them how to feel? And is it a desirable power to have, if it existed? You want the Armenian Government to sign a piece of paper saying that they will never, ever demand anything from Turkey, in return for Turkey becoming semi-civilized and "normal" in its attitude towards them. Strange attitude from someone who is convinced that borders are soon to be abolished and become irrelevant. Even stranger for the party who has a lot of apologizing to do. I have a better suggestion. Turkey starts being really nice to Armenia and Armenians, without silly preconditions to tell the future generations what to want or not want. I bet those future generations of Armenians will not want to break a friend's heart. Especially a friend that repents sincerely and tries everything possible to mend its past wrongs. Right.

 

Obsessed about Territory, are we? Turkey's territories are safe, and you bloody well know it. You just want Armenians to acknowledge that they have no rights on these lands. Sort of an international version of "declaring it kosher". It somehow maddens you that it is not "helal" (muslim version of kosher). What does Turkey offer to make it kosher, Ali? The promise that they will not commit another genocide? How generous. Oh, I forgot. Of course the IMF and World Bank dollars, courtesy of the American taxpayers. Perhaps you can approach individual Armenians and bribe them into signing away their individual moral right to live on those lands autonomously as Armenians. If it is a good deal, I am sure you will have many takers. Consider it a sort of rent. Since Turkey does not wish to regard Armenia as representing all Armenians, that would be the only logical alternative. Of course, there is the status quo that Turkey seems to like.

 

I think "you guys" are not afraid of the real, living Armenians, as you know that we are not a serious threat. What you are afraid of are the Armenian ghosts floating above and inside your heads. It looks more and more like you are trying buy some sort of an exorcism.

 

Since you did not offer a sincere repentance, and view the whole thing as some sort of a "trade", you made the absurd claim that Turks would "acknowledge", "apologize", and "pay reparations", and yet would not tolerate Armenians on "their" soil. A fake apology and a little bribe with other people's money to get the Armenians' off your back. I am not necessarily saying that it is a bad deal for Armenians. But I am saying that it has nothing to do with true repentance and reconciliation. I have also observed that you consistently avoided any discussion of a federal structure in Turkey that would allow different cultures (Turkish, Armenian, Kurdish) and identities to exist with their head equally high. Right boss?

 

Israeli-Palestinian conflict (after the Oslo accords) is not complicated. Neither is the resolution of Turkish-Armenian problems. Both problems are fed by a toxic combination of arrogance and paranoia by one of the sides. Inept leadership on the "weaker" side (surprise, surprise!) has always made it worse, but was never at the root of the problem. If the strong side dropped the arrogance and the paranoia, the solution would be easy. But then, this would be like saying "stupid people should wise up" or "bad people should become good". Now I deserve a "duh" from the audience.

 

This is pretty ludicrous. A martian listening in would think that Turkey was under some sort of a terrible siege. Why on earth would all the powers-that-be of the planet come together in support of Armenians, and against an "ally", against all their political instincts at all levels? You really need to live outside of Turkey for a while, Ali. The paranoia appears to have infested your mind thoroughly. And it is not our duty to snap you out of your paranoia. You are asking us to confirm that your paranoia has a credible basis in fact. Well, I will not do that.

 

Sure. In fact very transparent. One day it may even be clear to you too.

[Rubo]

Dear Ali

Arpa jan, am waiting for the dramatic punch line!What a build up!

[Sip]

That sounded a lot like how the Germans feel too! It was amazing to me how much they resent the Turks. When we were there, their first question usually was "Are you Turki?" ... and as soon as we said NO they did a complete 180 in the way they treated us!!! Completely fascinating at first, but later on I learned to see exactly what Nairi said.

 

The Turks also seem to take a lot of the low-end jobs away from the Germans which makes them even more mad ... especially since they come, make money, and leave in a few years taking it all with them.

 

[ September 11, 2002, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Sip]

Now that's irony!!!

[nairi]

[ September 11, 2002, 03:22 AM: Message edited by: nairi ]

[Boghos]

First of all I must say it is nice to have an Oxford self-appointed scholar from Turkey here. It goes without saying that the ability to comprehend is essential to any student of languages. Or anything else.

 

I do not wish to be an interpreter of Arpa´s words, just to add on what he wrote. It seems to me that generally speaking you were well received at this forum. It is true that once in a while there have been unreasonable posts directed to you. But this is not just your privilege, it is just a fact of life in this and other forums.

 

People such as TB, MJ and Arpa among others have discussed several issues with you in the best possible faith. What has disturbed some is the fact that even though you have discarded the ludicrous arrogance that you initially displayed, that you seem to be here to mock. And mock what many perceive to be very serious issues. Essentially to mock Armenians.

 

I prefer those that come and state their case very clearly, and also those that have some sort of emotional balance. You fail in both cases, I am afraid. You go from praising the sword to preaching love and peace. This psychological phenomenon has been well documented, but I will not dive into it. For all practical purposes my sense is that you act out a deep seated sentiment of insecurity and inferiority and you try lessen that through mockery. This is not unlike many of your countrymen, in Turkey and abroad. Reflected in how Turkey behaves as a state, as well. It is a pity, but that´s how it is.

 

My grandfather never hated Turks, nor obviously taught us to hate them. Now I understand why. Out of compassion.

 

[ September 11, 2002, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[Arpa]

Boghos took the words right out of my mouth.

It is clearly obvious as who hates whom. Many Armenians have come out and professed their lack of HATE towards the Turk, in particular towards the Turk of today. Armenians have realized that hate will not accomplish anything. Several years ago when I addressed a gathering during the Genocide commemroration my main topic was "hate" in which I said something like; Hate will not harm the subject, it will only harm the practitioner. It will stunt growth and eat the hater from inside out. I have never hated anybody, neither have I have hated the Turk. I may despise them, I may never forget, and as stated numerous times; Don't give them the chance, don't get caught unprepared, don't dare them, they will be glad to oblige time after after time. It seems I have been right. As the Turks has not, will never get over its hatred of the Armenian.

 

Originally posted by Boghos

Did I or did not I ask you to say something new? We have, not I, because as I have stated time and again that I will not discuss Genocide, to me there is no question. I will not argue whether there was one or not. Let the evidence speak for itself. I will not debate whether 299,999 mudered souls constitute a Genocide or whether the number should be 1,500,001 to qualify. The fact is that a mighty state murdered its unarmed and helpless "citizens" is murder so foul.

Did I or did not I ask you to say something new?

And now you quote Kamuran who so gloats in his "greatest discovy" that "there was no such thing as an Armenian state". How does that exonerate the fact that, whether Armenia was a state or not, Armenians were MURDERED, their property confiscated. Armenia may not have been a state then, neither was the Ottoman Empire, it was just an amorphous designation. Neither is Turkey of today, it is nothing but a scaled down, tattered and declining remnant of an empire that has not yet seen its final fall and demise.

Speaking of blockade.

What cowards! How shamelss! Threatening the US with sanctions and blockades. Go ahead. Try it. I would love to see Turkey sanction and blocake the US, may be then our hard earned tax money will stop going down the sewers of Istanbul and Ankara.

Please Ali, stop looking for excuses and be the first of your kind to own up and confess. It will only benefit you and your kind because until and unless you start behaving like a civilized member of the world community you will always remain the savage that many dictionaries define the Turk and Turkey.

 

Coming back to Boghos' statement.

Why are you (lural)so hateful and fearful of the Armenian?

The old Armenian adage "gogh sirt@ togh"* must have been coined to apply to the Turk.

*(Trans. The burglar's heart trembles with fear).

In other words;

Guilty as charged.

[aurguplu]

nairi

 

you are slipping back into the style which had caused me to suspend comunication with you.

 

besides, the question was addressed to arpa and not you. let's see his answer.

[Rubo]

Let us raise ourselves to higher ground where the air is purer and the vision is larger. From this vintage point of view Ali’s views or ours are totally irrelevant. What is really relevant is the wall street and its powerful bulldog jaw crashing politics in the name of “new world order” or better yet “globalization”. Who really cares about our little feuds, but us, thinking somehow the world revolves around us. Lades and gentleman we are nothing more then “new markets” to be exploited soon or later and the best Turks and Armenians can do is how best to play the game so as not to become slave to bankers. If the Turks had any intelligence (does not apply all) then they would solve the cypress problem, open borders with Armenia and become a EU member as soon as possible but wait “you guys” actually believe you can bully Greece, Armenia crap on international law and be accepted as a civilized European member country? This does not seem probable every time I see Turkish politicians punching each other in parliament. Strangely as an Armenian, Turkish politicians punching each other reminds me of the genocide. Go figure!

[aurguplu]

ok everyone

 

1. the reason why i said i didn't understand arpa's statement is not because there was something that i didn't like, but simply because i found his last posting garbled, disconnected, not laeding to a specific conclusion, and not answering my previous posting(s). i also had a bit of trouble following the way he uses english, frankly.

 

2. but there is a bigger problem when trying to communicate with you, and it is a bloody big one.

 

none so deaf as he who wouldn't hear, none so blind as he who wouldn't see.

 

until now i carried my conversations with you guys thinking that as civilised individuals, we can carry out an intelligent, informed and reasonably balanced discussion despite the flagrant nature of the subjects without calling eachother names. this thought, or rather hope, is diminishing.

 

i am as strongly opposed to some of the positions you hold as you are to some of the positions that i hold. but i have never called any one of you, or - heaven forbid - your nation, the names that you have called mine. your style in replying to me and in referring to my nation approaches mhp's style in referring to your nation. you can check if you care by comparing the style and vocabulary that i use in my postings to the one that you use.

 

i state the fact of the role that the sword played in history - and not only in ours - whether we like it or not, and you twist it to interpret as if i am praising it.

 

i make a statement about a given fact (that there was no independent armenian state prior to ag) and you claim that i quote kamuran gürün. if kamuran gürün didn't exist, and if i had still made that statement, which is a fact, whom would i be quoting then? couldn't it be that i am stating that fact because it is a fact, with or without gürün's comments on it?

 

i say that ag did happen, that it was a foul crime, and that we must recognise it, apologise for it, pay compensation for it, etc., but that it would be difficult to achieve this without first seeing the land claims dropped because of the concerns on the part of turkey regarding the safety of its territorial integrity, and you again twist this as saying that this is yet another trick by a turk to sideline the ag issue.

 

you (some of you) say that it is absurd to hide behind land claims to avoid recognising ag, because the armenians either don't have land claims, or know that it is not a perceivable goal, and claim the only reason why i stick to that line is to avoid having the ag recognised, and then you state these claims here and elsewhere on this forum and start making plans as to how to pressure turkey from all sides with other nations' help.

 

if i am for avoiding the ag issue then what in the hell am i doing in the first place? why am i typing this instead of going out with my friends and doing something more exciting?

 

after all, i am not going to accept land claims on the forum and send the concerned land by e-mail, as mj had wisely pointed out.

 

you also claim that i do not recognise your right to even contemplate the subject. i am nobody to recognise or not to recognise anyone's right to think anything, besides i don't know on on earth i could do to this effect. it is the most absurd thing i have heard recently.

 

of course i can understand that you as armenians want these lands back, and that you see that it is your moral right to want them back. after all, you had been there for three thousand years, and your mark on the land is there, as is so much of your history. but that's the moral side of the question. the american indians and the australians have exactly the same moral rights that you do, but that is not going to make the whites move off their land. the question is not whether it is moral or not, the question is whether it is feasible.

 

and what we have here is a question of feasibility (practicality), not morality. the ag is a criminal issue, recognising it personally is a moral issue, and getting it recognised by the state and the public is a practical issue. the state is not going to recognise it as long as it sees such a recognition as a potential threat to its territorial integrity. and the state does, whether you agree with it or not.

 

some of you say (if i understand you correctly) that turkey has nothing to fear because the armenians are so weak. what then if one day you get stronger? or get a stronger ally? the reason why roa - and the more tactful of you - do not vociferously push the land issue NOW is because you realise that you don't have the power to carry it out to the desired conclusion NOW. simply put, you don't try NOW because you know you can't get, NOT YET.

 

but you fail to - or refuse to - understand that it is precisely your insistence on that unrealisable goal that plays into the hands of genocide deniers. they deny the thing ever happened in public by using establishment propaganda prepared for public consumption, economic, political and military bribes etc, and justify their denial in private conversations by pointing out the land claims. i reply that i) we have nothing to fear from them, since most armenians realise it is not a feasible goal because we are so strong and they are so weak, and ii) that most of them want the recognition more than the lands. the guy i) asks me what if we get weaker and they stronger, like in artsakh, and ii) shows me some comments made by a few individuals in the media including those on the hye forum. i turn into a nightingale that has eaten mulberry (if you know that expression, it is from turkish).

 

in addition, i see an attitude on your part as you sitting on a higher pedestal than us, that you are intrinsically right and we intrinsically wrong, an attitude that i do not cultivate toward you. so a turk who accepts your line is "civilised, improving, hopeful etc.", the more of it he accepts, the more so he is. he is a less bad turk who symphatises with your sufferings, a goodish one if he accepts the ag, a good one if he accepts the ag, apologies, and compensation, and an excellent one if he agreed to pack his stuff and go wherever he came from. taking it further, he'd be best if he dropped dead! ("i hate the turks biologically. i wish they simply didn't exist" - gamavor). i find in this a very disturbing parallel to the attitude of the 19th century natives who resisted white encroachment on their lands and refused to give up their languages, cultures, and identity and adopt white man's ways.

 

my position is clear. the ag took place, it was a crime that has to be recognised, apologised for and compensated. anatolian armenians must also be allowed to return to their land and live unmolested lives with no second-class status, if they so choose. this is justice, and it must be done, for the armenians have a right to receive justice, and the turks have an obligation to give justice, and have a right to live without the moral burden of carrying on an injustice. turkey must stay in one peace and the return of the armenians to eastern anatolia must not mean the turks getting out of it. this is also justice, for the turks on this land are natives by dint of time, culture and genes, just as you do. for this to be possible, land claims must be dropped, because i) they are not feasible, ii) they are not just (see above), and iii) they obstruct ag recognition. this is pragmatism.

[aurguplu]

rubo,

 

you made a point. i am sure half of the power brokers in wall street confuse armenia with romania and think turkey is the bird they eat for thanksgiving. and they matter, we don't. which is the more reason we have to solve this problem. we are in a deadlock and our accumulated hatred/mistrust/fears/arrogance/superiority-inferiority complexes blind us to the big picture and our place in it, which gives others (the big guys) to determine our places for us. it is a sobering fact that neither one of us has the power to push our respective positions regarding our conflict without the help of some big outsider, and that outsider is usually the usa. you lobby in the us congress against us, we lobby in the very same congress to counter you. who wins? us lobby companies! (just to give one example).

 

apart from the morality side, this issue has a practical side to it that kept dogging both of us for so long. this is at least one of the reasons i for one to see it solved.

 

cheers

 

[ September 11, 2002, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: aurguplu ]

[khodja]

Ali,

 

Please notice that YOU are not the only one being insulted here. I have received similar treatment. This behavior is based in the Armenian psyche, of professing to be "HOLIER THAN THOU." It is a bunch of hogwash and has gotten Armenians into trouble throughout the centuries. I ask again, why did an Italian doctor in the employ of the Ittihadists get so much pleasure in torturing Armenian priests? His family had lived in Istambul for centuries, and his family were Christians. What was it about the Armenian priests approach that had enraged him so?

 

In the absence of any government or other institutions for centuries, the clergy formed the Armenian psyche. The warp in the Armenia psyche emanates from this.

[Boghos]

Ali,

 

There is hardly anybody in this forum that has been proven wrong so many times as you, trying to show knowledge that you clearly do not possess. But this is not an issue of knowledge, it is a moral issue. As you have written:

 

"a millennium ago, you endured the sword (a sword is not gobbledygook, it is always very clear what it is), then you endured the rule (that was also very clear, i guess), then in the 19th century you endured a sharply deteriorating condition (that was also very clear, i guess), hamidian massacres (i won't ask whether these were clear or not), a brief partnership in the young turk regime in which you preferred to keep an ambiguous position), and then your involvement with the russians and the genocide"

 

You are an angry young man...I can even have sympathy for the sad state that you find yourself in. But this is not a place for online therapy.

[aurguplu]

dear arpa,

 

i must confess i didn't quite understand what your point was, so i am afraid i cannot furnish a reply (if there's anyone out there who understood, could you please explain?)

 

cheers,

[nairi]

You can't furnish a reply because you're a coward, just like your fellow 80 million Turks.

 

Nairi

[khodja]

Nairi Jan,

 

With all due respect, YOU are not being realistic.

What you are asking for is not realistic. While all Anatolian Armenian families have suffered, some were able eventually to pick up the pieces of their shattered lives and move on to a new life elsewhere, keeping their pain private. Some were able to make a better life elsewhere then they would have had if their families were not decimated. For my family, it left a long history of mental illness. My grandmother never recovered from the Genocide. She spent her life in a cycle of manic-depression. My father, having been in a private school in Germany at the time of the Genocide, became a laborer in Paris. These had been pampered people, among the most prominent Armenian families. The sudden downward mobility was a schock to them from which they NEVER recovered. My father died young.

 

All we can expect is an acknowledgement of what occured and reestablishment of property rights. Begging for forgiveness from present day Turks? These Turks were not alive when the Genocide occured. We must make peace with the more progressive Turks and move on. Nothing will be served by what you demand. As for Eastern Anatolia, we should work to get our monuments preserved for posterity and push for archaelogical research. Let the Turks get rich by presenting our monuments and history to tourists. The US Southwest is getting rich showcasing the native American monuments. What the HELL is the ROA going to do with all the land of the 6 provinces now in Turkish hands when they can't even adequately adminster the tiny ROA?

[Boghos]

Am I right in getting the impression that the Armenian priests that you say were tortured by this Italian doctor were rightly so ? that it was the priests fault ?