IDLE NOISE EMANATING FROM BITLIS

[Boghos]

I agree with you the the Jews were not tied to the land the way the Armenians were. But an upper middle class Armenian in Istanbul felt he belonged almost as much as its counterpart in a large German city. In any case I am not sure that one is attached to the land, in the physical sense, but rather the psychological implications of having lived there for a long time, ancestors and the like.

[Guest Fadi]

Sen_ I believe there was around 1,9 million Armenian, some German war numbers pout it to 1,925,000, from what I have read and studied it is the number that makes the most sens for me, I have made some calculations and found 1,930,000, all the Ottoman empire and some bordering disputed territories.

 

780,000 survived 1,150,000 perished, 60 % From 1909-1924(including the parts done by the Kemalists)

 

Out-side victims(out-side Ottoman) there has been actions in the Armenian Persian provinces, in Russian Armenia, Kars etc... and Kemalist attacks in many of these territories and Halil excurtions etc... 500,000 victims after 1918, or those outside etc... (including the Russian uncompleat statistics of 198,000(victims by the Kemalist in independent Armenia)) That makes more then 20 % of the Armenians outside of Ottoman Armenia (There was 1,780,000 Armenians in the Caucasus out side of Ottoman Armenia from Russian statistics) and there was few hundreds of thousands outside of these territories...

 

If we consider the World Armenian population of being more then 4 million, then from 1909-1924 from the total Armenian population of the World, 40 % have lost their lives(it makes per population a quota higher then the Holocaust), because of the war condition, and the massacres.

 

Every sources of victims and populations drown that have been given by people that were present there recognise that there was about 1,9 million Armenians and that around 1,2 million died, the prosecutor also during the Turkish military after war tribunal also used the figure of 1,2 million perished that number was presented by the Armenian Lawyer and accepted by the tribunal matching their own numbers... The Germans and Austrians also give the victims around this same number... the only numbers that show the victims being lower then a million are those from countries that full access in the Ottoman empire were restricted, The League of Nation recognise a million Armenian victim in the Ottoman(do not consider thoses that died outside and has very few if any references for those that died during kemalist crimes). The Blue Book like mentioned by professor Melson cover only from 1915 to the end of 1915, and few references at the very beggining of 1916.

 

Fa'iz El-Ghusein in his work "Martyred Armenia"

 

stat:

 

"If to this we add those killed in the following months, amounting

to about 50,000; and those in the vilayets of Bitlis and Van and

the province of Moush, approximately 230,000; and those who

perished in Erzeroum, Kharpout, Sivas, Stamboul, Trebizond,

Adana, Broussa, Urfa, Zeitoun, and Aintab - estimated at upwards

of 350,000 - we arrive at a total of Armenians killed, or dead

from disease, hunger, or thirst, of 1,200,000.

 

There remain 300,000 Armenians in the vilayet of Aleppo, in

Syria, and Deir-el-Zur (those deported thither), and in America

and Egypt and elsewhere; and 400,000 in Roumelian territory, held

by the Balkan States, thus making a grand total of 1,900,000."

 

What is surprising is that he was at the East and havent seen much deporties or other Armenians escaping to Russia, but again he do not cover after 1916, and do not know if some of these deaths in fact were not death and in fact escaped for Russia or from the collon of refufies of the last 450,000 more then 250,000 escaped in fact in Russia etc...

[sen_Vahan]

THOTH,

 

I agree with you and i also think that Patriarchate's figures are correct not because they are made by Armenians but also for one other reason: Patriarchates everywhere not only in Turkey always took into account the whole number of people including new-born children. But I am not sure that Turks did the same and i would like to know about that.

Vahan

[Guest Fadi]

Sen_ There has been no presented Ottoman statistics...

 

The Ottoman planned one, and supposed that it should be the most accurate because the Young-Turk new policy... but finaly it was the one that we know, the statistic that has been published in 1914(do not represent the numbers of 1914 but previous dates, McCarthy suppose 1912, but we have no indications of which dates they are talking about.) Supposing that they are the one of 1912 like McCarthy propose we see that they are in fact "forgery" hidding another statistic... because like Kemal Karpat in his work "Ottoman population 1830-1914, Demographics and social characteristics" explain these numbers were calculations based on other pseudo-census...

 

Now it dosent make any sens that the government that took power in 1908, that was planning a very precise census never done before, and starting it, after 6 year publish it and we found out that it wasent a census but a statistic... it takes 1 mounth to make such kind of statistic at most lets say 5 mounths, because they were not census, and for this since there was no population counting it should not have taken 6 years...

 

Now what I started to believe is that a real census has been made, because we have record of such intention a a structure for such census, they made it and had a number, and since this number had shown a greater Armenian population they havent made it public, after the Balkan war, there was 2 major millety left the Arabs and the Armenians, only after the Armenians fealed isolated and talked about more rights because they were an important part of the Ottoman population, now that other broked away, an alleged official statistic has been published... when there should have been actual real census released somewhere in the 1910...

 

Now again it is my dear "friend" McCarthy that has given me the answer, at the Chapter of his book covering the Greek population(in Muslims And Minorities)

 

McCarthy write:

 

"The Greek figures consisted of two sets of statistics on Ottoman population. These were referred to as the "Greek Patriarchate Statistics of 1912" and the "Turkish Official Statistics of 1910," the latter supposedly taken from the "Ottoman Census of 1910." The two sets of statistics were broken down by province and ethnic group. Their figures did not agree on Muslim population, but they were in general agreement on Greek population. For example, according to the Greek Patriarchate statistics, there were 1,782,582 Greeks in Anatolia (including the Asiatic shore of Constantinople) in 1912;the "Turkish Official Statistics of 1910" listed 1,777,146 in the same area."

 

A Census of 1910, match the Greek patriarchat numbers of Greeks... A Census of 1910, the near exact date that Ottoman census should have been released... But like we know McCarthy, that is a denier, he should hide the fact and cover such census...

 

Then he find pseudo-reasons taking in account that there was possibly no Ottoman Census in 1910.

 

"The "Ottoman Census of 1910"

 

There was no official Ottoman census of 1910, though those who read Polybius' book in 1919 and most of those who have used the "1910 Census" figures, having no knowledge of real Ottoman figures, had no way of knowing that. There was, instead, a deliberate deception on the part of Polybius, who must have realized that the Greek Patriarchate statistics would appear unquestionable if they were supported by population data from those most likely to question them, the Ottomans.

 

For the 1914 edition of the Almanach de Gotha, the Ottoman government had provided the editors with population totals drawn from registration data of the Ottoman population. This data was first published under the title "Notice Statistique. Superficie et Population (1910)"9 in the 1914 Almanach de Gotha and, with small corrections for boundary changes, was used until the 1923 edition oftheA/manac/i.

 

The Almanach de Gotha published only the total population of each Ottoman province, not the population by ethnic or religious groups. Polybius took these figures and himself divided them into ethnic groups, always keeping the totals the same as the totals for each province as they appeared in the Almanach de Gotha. His ethnic groups reflected roughly the number of Greeks as they appeared in the Greek Patriarchate statistics, not in any Ottoman official statistics. The figures of Greek population in each province were carefully made to be close to, but not exactly the same as, the Patriarchate data. The result was then published under the heading

 

"Turkish Official Statistics, 1910: (See totals in Almanach de Gotha, 1915)"10

 

It thus appeared as if Polybius had published the details of what he called the "Turkish Census of 1910," whereas the Almanach de Gotha had only published the totals. Polybius had, in effect, made Turks into Greeks, by shifting population numbers from one group to another."

 

Now from the list of the "relocation agreement" that we found for the Greek population etc... we found that in fact these numbers of between 1,7-1,8 million of Greeks made a lots of sens... But McCarthy refer to the numbers of 1914 that he call census, when Karpet the expert himself remark that even on the papers that present these numbers it show that they were not censuses but calculations.

 

Ottoman numbers for the Greek population were 1,112,698, impossible only the exchange of population cover around this number, and this from official references, proving in fact that the numbers presented of "1910" makes a lots of sens.

 

Now what about the Armenian population ?

 

Dr. Secil Akgun in a interview in Hurriyet, April 27, 1987, stated that from Turkish sources there was 2,5 million Armenian, this has been also cited in some times in the Turkish Parlement by accident... SO the number that I bring of 1,925,000 is concervative and in no way exagerated.

 

This is all for now, I will come to this later, if there is things to add.

 

[ March 13, 2002, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[aurguplu]

bellthecat,

 

no, you haven't got it wrong, but there are a very few (about a dozen) turkish families that approach the european notion of aristocracy (i mean they are not the statesmen, clergy, or military).

 

i tend to keep my family history to myself (and that remark about aristocratic background was a bit of a slip of the pen); and i would appreciate if we moved on to other subjects. no offence intended.

 

cheers,

[sen_Vahan]

Thanks , Domino, for the posts.

Actually, the old question still remains - were Armenians in majority in some eastern vilayets? this is the key point. if according to turkish sources there were 2.500 000 Armenians then obviously in Van, Erzrum, Bitlis with the highest Arm populations they were in majority.

And it seems that Patriarchat's figures are in fact correct.

Vahan

[Guest Fadi]

The number of 2,5 million is a little vague, because these numbers have been probably taken in a time when the Ottoman considered to put his hand on some territories... but still considering it, we will suppose that near 2 million Armenians lived in Ottoman...

 

The 2/3 quota presented during the Turkish military after war tribunal, and their official statistics of the killed, and taking in account of Djemal memoir recognising how much Armenians have been deported(he stat in his memoire 1,5 million, and him and other references suppose that there is around 500,000 not deported), we found out around 2,250,000 Armenians, but still we have no idea how they place the population taking in acount the dispertions, so for this, I think the better thing to do is to take the German number of 1,925,000 as the most resonable number.

 

Toynbee, even him lets us believe there was around 1,9 million Armenian.

 

"The most "neutral" course under the circumstances is to halve the difference, and to take the number provisionally as being 1,600,000, with the qualification that the true figure certainly lies between this and 2,000,000, and probably approaches more closely to the LATTER."

 

If some can correct me if I am wrong(maybe from my English understanding), if we take a middle value we end up with 1,8 million, and his supposition of being nearer to the later(2 million) we can suppose that it could be around 1,9 million.

 

So I believe that the number of 1,925,000 match the closest with the actual number and is conservatif and not an exagerated one, and from this number I believe possibly 1,150,000 died... these are the post reasonate numbers, but here I do not include territories out-side of the Ottoman, so if we are to fix the number to 1,5 million, it is a number that makes a lots of sens for the total World Armenian losses from 1908-1924, and even more since I come to a conclusion of a little more then 1,6 million... of course some could say that all didnt died of massacres, and they would have a point, but the between 4-5 million Jews that died prior, and at the end of WWII, are also the total number of victims. So to be fair we must count the total losses, or if not, then on the other side we should substract from the Jewish victims by using a kind of methodology like counting the victims per population in Germany and the other places in Question, then substract it from the Jewish per population and count as victims the per-population that is left and then give a number like this... but when we talk about genocide, this kinds of methods are not used because simple as it is, it wasent the war of the Armenians, like it wasent the war of the Jews, the Germans fighted their war, the Turks fighted theirs, and for this, it would have been understanded that many Germans and Turks would have died... Armenian and Jewish victims were not war victims, thats the difference.