TROJAN HORSES

[Arpa]

TROJAN HORSES and furkish ESHEKS

---

In another thread we questioned why some of us still use furkish words/names for Armenian Lands and why we call those dogs p****???

Note; Diaspra means dispersed. How much more "dispersed" can we be?

Least of which, we need those esheks to widen the gap.

What the hell do Hnchak, Dashnak and Ramkavar mean?

Are they separate nations?

How many other ways can we think of to divide a "nation" of less tan 2 million?

----

I had to look it up to see where the Cliche came from.

Except that in Virgil’s time no one had heard of the furk.

Here is another story of the Trojan Horse.

I can’t find a direct reference to his visit to the Tsitsernakaberd and meeting the grandson of his grandfather’s assassin. Is the following a “ new and improved” version of the “ Wolf in Sheeps’ Clothing”? is he an agent of the state? See what Taner says below, that many (Armenians) suspected him being an agent. Is he or is he not? Sugarcoating that “ bitter pill” with “furkish felight”? Have we seen these movies before going all the back 150 years to the so called “constitution to blow dust in the eyes of Europe? Are they, once again “blowing dust” in the blind eyes of the Diaspora?

SHAME ON THE ADL RAMKAVARS FOR ORGANIZING THIS “ COMEDY TONIGHT” JUST TO ANTAGONIZE THE DASHNAKS!!!

Do we really need the furks to widen the wedge between our fackshuns?

To top it all, see how that grand-dog of a dog invokes the name of Saint Hrant Dink!!!

Another stupid adage. Where was the furk then?:

Trust a snake before a Jew, a Jew before a Greek, but never trust an Armenian.

French saying

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts

Meaning

Don't trust your enemies.

Origin

An allusion to the story of the wooden horse of Troy, used by the Greeks to trick their way into the city. It is recorded in Virgil's Aeneid, Book 2, 19 BC:

"Do not trust the horse, Trojans. Whatever it is, I fear the Greeks even when they bring gifts."

Here is his picture;

http://kara.allthingsd.com/files/2008/07/trojanhorse.jpg

And here is a picture of his grandfacker;

http://www.explorecrete.com/albums/album19/donkey.jpg

http://www.mirrorspectator.com/?p=2394

Did he really use the G word or the “grand catastrophe”? See highlights below. They have just learned an Armenian phrase- Mets Yeghern/Մեծ Եղեռն. Little do they know that “yeghern” means “crime/murder” as in the Armenian “yeghernagorts/ԵՂԵՌՆԱԳՈՐԾ” means murderer.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19143

 

Grandson of Cemal ***** Makes Overture to Armenian Community

By Editor on Nov 28, 2009 in Armenia

From left, Taner Akçam, Hasan Cemal and Asbed Kotchikian

By Alin K. Gregorian

WATERTOWN, Mass. — The Armenian Cultural and Education Center on Tuesday, November 17, was packed by Armenian-Americans eager to hear the grandson of one of the three architects of the Armenian Genocide apologize for the sins of his grandfather and to reach out a hand to the community.

If Turkish journalist and grandson of Cemal *****, Hasan Cemal, expected a big, warm embrace, he was mistaken. However, the audience members were certainly interested in what he was saying.

He opened his comments with the phrase “Barev harkeli barekamner” (hello esteemed friends), to the surprise of many. “I came here tonight to hear you, to understand you. I came here to open my heart to your suffering, pains and sorrows — pains coming from your history, coming from Anatolia,” he said. “I am not here to compare or to equate your suffering. I am here to understand them. I came here because my dear friend Hrant Dink said, ‘first let us understand each others’ pain.”

He repeated the phrase, as well as the Armenian greeting, several times.

“My conscience does not accept the denial of the grand catastrophe which Armenians were subjected to in 1915. In the memory of Hrant Dink, I reject this injustice,” he added. “To make excuses for such a crime is to collude in it.”

Hasan Cemal’s grandfather, Cemal *****, one of the three leaders of the Young Turks who had masterminded the Armenian Genocide, was assassinated on July 21, 1922, in Tbilisi, Georgia. The younger Cemal met a few years ago with the grandson of his grandfather’s assassin.

Cemal explained that he had initially learned about the Armenian Genocide from Dink, later to be educated by the books of fellow panelist Taner Akçam. “He touched my heart, and my friend Taner Akçam has touched my mind,” he noted.

His following comment, to a certain extent equating the sufferings of Turks and Armenians, as well as tying the comments to the recently-signed protocols between Armenia and Turkey, disconcerted some members of the audience. “We should not become prisoners or captives of our pains and suffering. We should not forget the past,” he said, but should go on in life.

He added, “It is a very interesting period between Turkey and Armenia. The normalization process could start with the establishment of diplomatic processes. For the sake of peace, it is better not to be a captive of the past. The Turks endured suffering, too, in Anatolia. The Kurds suffered, too, in the denial of their language and identity.”

Again, he changed his tone to say, “I know pain such as this cannot be compared or equated.”

His comments perplexed some members of the audience.

However, fellow panelist Akçam was able to get to the heart of the matter. “This is a very emotional moment,” he said, adding, that with his intimate knowledge of both communities, he realizes problem arise because the two sides do not understand each other.

“The first time you met a Turk, you think of them as someone who murdered your ancestors and supports the policy of denial,” he said. “For Turks, Armenians are traitors who killed innocent diplomats.”

Akçam, the chair of Armenian Studies at Clark University in Worcester, said Turks tend to view Armenians as a single bloc that focuses on the Genocide exclusively. Any Turks who break from their pack and try to embrace the Armenians, he said, is regarded with suspicion in the Armenian community. “In 1999, 2000, in the eyes of most of you, I was not an average Turk. Some thought I am in the secret police or an agent. We viewed each other through a prism. Now we are becoming more like individuals.”

He added that Turks and Armenians have different views when it comes to their perception of time. “For you the past is present and lives today. The Turks built it up with denial. When I say there are positive changes, you say ‘we’ve heard it before.’ The Turks have no sense of history. Our youth have no idea what happened in 1908.”

He summarized, “One side is frozen in a tunnel of history, whereas the other side is completely unaware of it. This meeting is part of getting past it.”

The third panelist, Asbed Kotchikian, who focused on the diasporan experience, related his first experience interacting with a Turk, a fellow college student in Beirut. While he said they never became close friends, they talked enough to break down some of the stereotypes with which they had grown up. “Opening of hearts and souls is not enough; we have to open minds,” he noted.

Kotchikian, who teaches at Bentley College in Waltham, noted that increased dealings in civil society — including gatherings such as this — add to the two sides’ understanding of each other.

Kotchikian noted that Turkey seems to have changed tremendously. “Is Turkey the same Turkey as 100 years ago? Twenty years ago? For me, the transformation, even cosmetic, on [their position on] the Kurds is monumental.”

The question-and-answer session that followed gave Cemal an opportunity again to pay tribute to Hrant Dink, suggesting, “Hrant placed so much importance on establishing diplomatic relations and opening the border. It is very, very important.”

Asked about the protocols that were signed in October by the Armenian and Turkish foreign ministers, Cemal said, “Armenian-Americans should attach importance to those protocols. It is a very important turning point. It could change the whole picture.”

Akçam suggested that perhaps a commission could be formed in Turkey to examine Turkish textbooks and to restore them to contain the correct version of history. “Changing public perception is very important,” he stressed.

The program was organized by the Friends of Hrant Dink.

Sossi Aroyan of the Friends of Hrant Dink introduced the panelists and acted as moderator.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Arpa

[Zartonk]

What the hell do Hnchak, Dashnak and Ramkavar mean?

Are they separate nations?

 

Not only do parties of all kind become nations, they become different creatures. Where should one balance loyalty to this modern tribe and the greater collective?

 

grand catastrophe

 

Catasrophe=event=happenstance

 

Emotional sincerity or honesty?

 

Of all this, Akcam's observations were closest to objective truthfulness, and I'm not saying this because he is 'on our side'.

[Yervant1]

ASTARJIAN: 'YALANCI DOLMA' DIPLOMACY

By Henry Astarjian

 

http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/12/02/astarjian-yalanci-dolma-diplomacy/

December 2, 2009

 

Yes, it was a meeting, but not a "historic meeting" as posted by the

Friends of Hrant Dink, the organizers of an academic event entitled

"Closing the Divide."

 

The event was designed to build cultural bridges between the Armenian

Diaspora on one side and the Turkish people on the other, to traverse

a colossal gorge, not divide, created by centuries of slavery, abuse,

colonization of Western Armenia, and pogroms, which peaked with the

infamous genocide of 1915-23.

 

The meeting took place in, of all places, the Armenian Cultural and

Educational Center (ACEC) in Watertown, Mass., a hub of the Armenian

cultural activities.

 

The luminary in this event was the principle speaker, Hasan Cemal,

who was to talk about his "recent trip to Yerevan and the memories

about his grandfather [Jemal *****]." Additional reflections were

to be articulated by two professors, Taner Akcam of Clark University

and Asbed Kotchikian of Bentley University.

 

I am not sure what the organizers were trying to accomplish. Some 25

million of Turkey's population, the Kurds, knew firsthand about the

genocide because they witnessed it, actually committed the killings,

or else kidnapped our daughters and later married them to their sons.

 

Most Turks are aware of the genocide, and they rationalize it because,

as Ataturk's propaganda has it, the genocide was a necessary policy

carried out to protect the Vatan (Fatherland) from Russian invasion

(which was supposedly exploiting the rebellious Armenians to divide

and defeat Turkey).

 

Yes, the people of Turkey-the Turk, the Kurd, the Lezgis, the Chechen,

the Greek; the Sunnis, Shiites, and the Alevis-all know about the

Armenian Genocide. Most importantly, the governments of Turkey have

known about the genocide from the beginning, yet have refused to face

the reality, and have muzzled the Turkish intelligentsia and people

of conscience from discussing Turkey's criminal past.

 

Inhabitants of Turkey know about the genocide. They all felt it on

their skin when their doctors, pharmacists, professors, architects, the

artisans and other skilled workers were no longer there, overnight. The

same was felt in Iraq, when the Jews left to Israel in 1949.

 

I know a Turkish doctor from Elazig (Kharpert region, Mamourat el-Asiz)

who swore to God he overheard this conversation between two elderly

Turks, sitting outside a mosque chatting about old times. One of

them said: "I asked Avedis to come to my house for protection. Me

and my friend killed this giavour oghlu giavour (infidel, son of

infidel). I took his jacket and my friend took his shalvar, and we

dumped the body."

 

It is accurate to say that the Armenian Diaspora knows Turkey better

than Turkey knows the Diaspora. Armenians do not trust Turks and

the Turkish government. Their so-called "Europeanization" is only a

veneer; the real Turkey has been exposed in many ways, many times. In

the early 90's, they let the people of Armenia freeze to frost when

they prevented oil from reaching the country. People cut trees to

cook and get some warmth to avoid hypothermia. The Turks blockaded

passage of international food aid to starving Armenia; and when they

gave in to international pressure, they exchanged the donated good

quality wheat with a cheaper one, before it got to Armenia.

 

Turgut Ozel, the president of Turkey at the time, contemplated "hitting

Armenia with a couple of missiles, and claiming mistakes for doing

it." Two days later he died, and Armenian folklore considers that as

God's punishment.

 

These are only a fraction of the facts that paint Turkey's portrait

with us; there is much more. The Turkish government and people of

Turkey must come clean; they must wash their hands of Armenian blood.

 

People-to-people dialogue, though well intentioned, will not bridge

the gorge, despite Cemal's attempts to find common ground. Shared

food recipes for dolma and chigkufta, make a weak bridge leading to

a recipe for yalanci dolma (fake, meatless, stuffed grape leaves):

It is a naive diplomacy. The message, which is noble in itself,

is not practical because rapprochement between our two peoples,

does not and will not change the policies of the Turkish government,

which is driven by its own agenda of hegemony of the region, and by

the big power's designs over the Caucasus.

 

It is evident that the issue is political. The dynamics of this game

will change in favor of understanding and friendship, if Turkey quits

resisting the recognition of the genocide and acknowledges its reality,

and if Turkey quits de-facto support of the Azeris on Karabagh. After

that, we can talk about the borders.

 

Hasan Cemal, who has been badgered by Turkey because of his book The

Kurds, is the wrong messenger for the message he is advocating. First,

he is in the wrong place; he should sell his ideas in Turkey, not in

the Armenian Diaspora. Second, intellectuals can never change policy;

neither can he. Intellectuals rarely get to a governing power anywhere

(an exception is Vaslav Haavel in Czechoslovakia). Similar writers

and intellectuals in Turkey-like Yasar Kemal, Ayse Nur, and her

husband Ragip Zarakolu, even the lighthearted Aziz Nesin, to name a

few-suffered and still suffer the wrath of the reactionary governing

establishment. Third, he carries a big chip on his shoulder. He is the

grandson of a war criminal "Sakalli (Bearded) Jemal *****," who as the

third member of a criminal gang formed of Enver, and Talat, members of

the Ittihad ve Tarraqi (CUP-Committee of Union and Progress), shared

the responsibility of implementing the genocide. He also committed war

crimes against the Arab intellectuals in Aleppo by holding kangaroo

courts, then hanging 12 of them headed by Dr. Abdul-Rahman el-Khalil,

within 24 hours of the lower court's decision; he did not allow them

appeal, as required by law, and did not wait to obtain the approval of

Istanbul, as required. In the Arab annals, he is known as the saffah

(blood-thirsty, indiscriminate executioner).

 

Now, I am not naive enough to saddle Hasan with his grandfather's

criminal past. I have no doubts about his decency and sincerity;

however, that enigma will never disappear if he does not condemn

his grandfather's deeds, outright. That is a bitter pill to swallow,

but that is the means to fortify his message. Otherwise this whole

project could be construed as being Yalanci Dolma Diplomacy.

[Zartonk]

Thanks Yervant, good post.

[Arpa]

Yes, I saw that by Dr. Henry. Thank you Yervant.We saw te article in question in anoter post under Diaspora. See " Trojan Horse".

I also saw his previous post about "Kef and Bazar".

Very uncharactristic of Dr. Hanry a fellow Marashtsi, shooting from the hip. Maybe not. I also often shoot from the hip

I wish I could find a direct way to contact him and tell him to PLEASE STOP USING furkish words,STOP SPWING snti-whoever VENOM, and learn basic (armatakan) Armenian be it durkish and Iraqi Arabic, kurdish that "kef" in fact means "dope/opium" and that "shouka" is none other than te Arabo-Assyrian "souk" . And as to "bazar", does he know that it is an Armenian word "vajar/vajarakan" merchant?

Furhremore. That furkish phrase is not "yalanchi dolma" it is "yalanchi sarma".

Dolma means to fill "լեցնել/ լից" as in eggplant, zucchini, pepper, tomatoe, potato etc. sarma means to roll, to wrap "փաթել /փաթուկ".

Consider the Armeno-furkish surname Sarmaz-ian, literally- "does not roll, does not hug/wrap/անփաթուկ".

Last, but not least my fellow Marashtsi** Dr. Henry should look into his family name of "astar-JI",and remove that damn "JI", even if "astar/lining" may be an Armenian word.

**His (great) grandfather, Dr. Abraham Astrajian is fetured in the Book MARASH

Edited December 3, 2009 by Arpa

[Arpa]

Speaking of the "devil" here is his other gobble-d-gook that I had written but not posted a few day ago..

 

---

From one Marashtsi to another (he professes to be one) I wish I could get a hold of Dr. Henry, who speaks “Loud and Clear” (the title of his one time series), to please rid his surname of that damn J. Maybe then we can speak intelligently about “furko-Armenian culture”. Dr. Henry makes a lot of sense in his diatribes, yet, at times he “ shoots from the hip” so to speak. He seems to be familiar with the Armenian language, but he lacks the depth. If I could get his private ear I would have liked to show him what we have written about words like “kef=dope”, “bazar”=vajar/vajarakan”, the Assyro-Arabic “shouga/shuka/ souk”. And that his BASIC/Armatakan knowledge, to say the least, of the Armenia Language is incomplete.

Yes we know many of our saintly idols, the likes of St. Arutin, aka Sayat Nova have used such perso-arabo-furko words like “ghimet” as in “yis qo ghimetn chim giti/ յԻՍ ՔՈ ՂԻՄԷԹՆ** ՉԻՄ ԳԻՏԻ

** Arabo-perso-furko word to mean “worth/արժեք”. What else is new? See Abovian, the founding father of our modern ashkharabar vernacular and see how many arabo-perso--furko words he uses.

 

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=16424&view=&hl=dope&fromsearch=1

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=10493&view=&hl=dope&fromsearch=1

 

Astarjian: ‘Bazaar’ and ‘Kef’: Is our language dead?

By Henry Astarjian • The Armenian Weekly, November 21, 2009 •

These are two words that make me feel like a matador looking at the bull ready to charge: angry, determined, ready to charge. What enrages me most is when the words are prominently displayed in front of a church, advertising their sujukh and basterma, and competing with the next Apostolic Armenian Church—my sujukh is better than your sujukh. And that gives them a sense of pride, a sense of superiority, forgetting that those two words, displayed in front of an Armenian church, is tantamount to the official bastardization of the Armenian language— with Turkish words—by a church or national organization.

Following the genocide, the survivors, most of them from Anatolia, spoke Turkish, which compelled the organizations and churches to communicate in their language. People knew some prayers in Armenian, which they recited during mass without knowing what they meant. Nevertheless, they recited. The political parties, to their credit, especially offshoot organizations of the parties, launched a campaign to promote the use of the mother tongue. In Beirut, the effort was boosted by Nigol Aghpalian, a multi-linguist; Levon Shant, a playwright who, amongst other plays and writings, wrote his opus magnum Ingadz Perti Ishkhanoohin; Kaspar Ipegian with his theater; and other linguists who, in collaboration with the Nshan Palangian Jemaran and other Armenian schools, taught the young generation not only the basics, but the intricacies of the Armenian lexicon and the melodious songs of the language that governed it.

Parsekh Ganatchian, with his spiritual operetta “Nahnor” (Pilgrimage of lovers to Saint Garabed Monastery, praying for the realization of their dreams) and the most soothing “Koon Yeghir Balaas” (a lullaby) harped the strings of one’s heart. His interpretations of other folklore casted a new hue on old Armenian songs.

The Turkish-speaking Armenians began to change, and were happy to revert to their origins.

One of the vehicles of this entire literary and artistic milieu was the Hamazkayin.

Time and place have changed all that. Today, the diaspora suffers from poverty of thought and poverty of spirit. The custodians of our culture, like Hamazkayin, have slipped into inaction, more like hibernation. Despite goodwill, there is no effort on their part to revive the comatose Armenian cultural animal.

An example comes to mind: Minas Tololyan. Originally a Bolsahay, Tololyan, with his wife Kohaar, taught Armenian language and literature to youth after the genocide, and authored literally hundreds of publications and volumes on Armenian history and literature. Though he was a giant in Armenian literature, he remains incognito. Hamazkayin has not stood up to the standards set forth by its founders!

Kef is a Turkish word meaning merriment (khrakhjank). For most, it is an ID documenting their Armenianism. To go to a “Keftime,” listen to Turkish Armenian-ized songs such as “Sharzhe, sharzhe tashkinagt” (in Turkish, “Salla salla mendilini”) and Kurdish Armenian-ized songs like “Dehle-Yaman,” and dance to the tune of “Lorke-Lorke,” is proof of being a good Armenian. One Armenian American told me: “Doc. I am a good, loyal Armenian. I haven’t missed a single kef since it began in Connecticut. I love Armenian food, I love kafta and I love pea-lough. I have many anecdotes along those lines.

What is wrong with calling a bazaar with its Armenian equivalent—shouga? Shouga is more phonetic, and is a good way of raising money and providing a social forum for the community to get together. But its Turkish name is a pollutant.

The disintegration is global, which is understandable, but what is inexcusable is the pollution that is in Armenia, where Turkish words dominate daily conversation. Instead of calling a child, yerekha in Armenian, for example, they call him or her chojukh, which is Turkish. Pistachios (bistag in Armenian) are fstekh. Sekh (melon) is yemish. It is nauseating!

It is ironic that everyone knows about the problem, but no one raises a finger to rectify it.

In Armenia, which is supposed to be our linguistic hub, spelling and dictation is so polluted that it needs strong detergents to clean it up. Calls to that effect have met with—to borrow a phrase—benign neglect. I don’t even know if there is a Ministry of Education in Armenia.

Here is another bastion of Armenian language, literature, history, and culture: the Mkhitarists of St. Lazarous, Venice, and Vienna. This rich fortress of Armenianism is neglected by the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Armenian Diaspora, and Armenia itself, most probably because they are a Catholic Armenian brotherhood. It is disintegrating for lack of funds, its vast properties have been auctioned off through Italian mafia scams, there are no new recruits, and the ailing Appa is facing closure of the monastery. Is this any indication of greatness, which our leaders keep inflating our egos with? Is this any way to survive the rigors of this world?

Language is important in the makeup of one’s ethnic identity, except in the Jewish case, whose dominant tradition, regardless of language, kept their nation intact for millennia. That is not the case with us; we do not have traditions specific to our nationalism or ethnicity. Our language is our tradition and it is now in imminent danger of Latinization.

Yes, I am sad and angry. No I am not depressed or hopeless. I still see the charging bull, but I am hopeful to see, one day, a banner hanging on the wall of our institutions advertizing a Shouga and Khrakhjank, not a Bazaar and Kef.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Arpa

[hagopn]

I'm sorry, is this Astarjian out of his musical mind? he should stay the hell out of topics he doesn't understand. "Salla salla mandilli" is a Kilistsi Armenian song that ONLY the Armenian sang and danced their customer handkerchief circle dance to. Can you show me an Altaic shit tribe in the Tundra who has such a dance? What the hell is wrong with people? So it was sung in Turkish. Of course it was! Does the good doctor realize that he is badly contradicting himself?

 

And who the hell said that Dele Yaman is a "Kurdish" song? His left nostril or his right jigar? Lorke lorke is Kurdish? How the hell so? Can you find me one single "lorge lorge" in Iranian Kurdistan? You cannot? Oh, gee, what a damned surprise!

 

This is the problem, the actual Trojan Horse, the half-literate "authority" figures we have. One Trojan Horse was Kirkor Zohrab, a Pink Elephantine, member of the "brotherhood of Fraternitee, Egalitee, Stupiditee," that same half-wit delusion of "brotherhood" that landed his head into a rock that happened to be in the clenched had of his "brotherly" turk killers on order to kill him by his "brother" Tala'at.

 

"Oh, the lute is turkish, the minor scales are turkish and kurdish, all improvised songs in the Van region were actually kurdish but translated..." It seems that the parasites such as kurds have created all these wonderful motifs and improvisational traditions in music, all the while the Armenians "have been sleeping with their feet in the air." What a fascinating world view, indeed.

 

Wrong! The parasites owe their ENTIRE cultures to the Armenian, the senior, the older, the actual civilized and developed culture that gave them EVERYTHING good they have ever had in that land and probably also far beyond.

Edited January 29, 2014 by hagopn

[hagopn]

Honestly, a more balanced approach to this problem displayed above is much more difficult. The amount of idiocy is simply too voluminous.

 

What about that "French saying" above? Some random fool utters some idiot phrases about someone claiming to be Armenian and it becomes "viral", because, frankly, xenophobia seems to be the thing to do for these sorts. How the hell do we know that it was not in fact some arab mistaken for an Armenian? Russians do it all the time due to their general boot ararats ignorance about other ethnicities. I have heard from numerous individuals who have been witnesses of Yezdis claiming to be Armenians in order to GAIN your trust and swindle you in Russia and elsewhere.

[hagopn]

In Ethiopia, where I was born, you were trusted BECAUSE you were Armenian!