PROTOCOLS

[Harut]

i guess that can be one way ...

consolidate & cut your losses and move on, spasenq mi aveli lav pahi, yerb menq aveli patrast k@linenq yerb mer dzerqin aveli hzor xaghaqarer k@linen yve menq mer aseliq@ kasenq ?

 

 

kareli e nayes iyspes..

 

yerek tarets @enkerojs het eyi xosum, inqn el mi etpisy ban asets, amenahetaqrqir iyn er vro na asum e.. " unenq Artsaxi Haykakan HAnrapetutyun - mern e, HAykakan e, inchu chen gnum bnakven shenatsnen ?? inchi en spasum ?? inch tarberutyun HAyastan e norits mek hogh n e menq enq azatagrel,,, inch chen gnum ?? te partadir arevmtyan hayastan pit lini or gnan.. chen gna et jamanak el chen gna...

"

 

hetaqrqir mek ayl mitq... arevmtyan hayastan@ vorpes ankax haykakan petutyun (kam @ndhanur haykakan petutyan mas) chi yeghel hamarya te arden mek hazaramyak... verjin angam vorpes hayoc hogh, haykakan taratsq, yeghel e osmanyan kaysrutyan kazmum, isk hayer@ ayd kaysrutyan hpatakner... inchn e tarberutyun@ ayd kaysrutyan yev ayzhmyan turqiayi hanrapetutyan mej? inchu chenq gnum verahastatvum mer patmakan tartsqnerum, mer hogherum, vorpes turqakan petutyan hpatak, inchpes vor kayinq haryur tari arraj?

 

i dep, ayd tarberak@ (verahastatvel arevmtyan hayastani taratsqnerum, steghtsel kayun hamaynq, yev hetapndel yev pahanjel inqnoroshum -> ankaxutyun) aveli irakan e qanc te uzhi mijocov, kam kapuyt shrjanakov skuteghi vra mer hogher@ mez andznvelu tarberakner@...

[Yervant1]

Yes. Now that the protocols are signed we can hear more noise coming from Turkey whereas the Armenians and Armenia seem to have understood very quickly that they were signed and that there is nothing to be done about it. Turkey is acting as it is because it needs to do it, not because it really has a choice. They'll make all kinds of apparently contradictory statements but in the end parliament should ractify them. The reason is simple: this whole protocols business is just a politically convoluted way of getting done what has been agreed upon: establishing diplomatic relations with Armenia and opening the border. Armenia did not and does not have a choice: it will establish relations with Turkey and since it never closed the border, it will just wait until the Turks open their door. I cannot find any argument whatsoever to say that if things happens as I expect that Armenia will be harmed.

 

Now as to Karabagh (Arpa jan: that's how they call themselves, let's not mirror the whole Turkey-turkey-Turkiye nonsense): I think it is highly unlikely that a solution to Karabagh was not discussed and agreed upon. Time will tell if that is true and what it is. Turkey gains considerable legitimacy having direct relations with Armenia and may even be an important part of the whole process.

Very true Boghos Jan, Turkey is doing it's best to portray itself as if they are in control and yet both Turkey and Armenia are told to do by the powers mainly US and Russia what to do. Turkey was told to open the border with Armenia or else US would recognize AG and Armenia asked to cooperate with some concessions on border issue and on Artsakh, to what extend I don't know.

 

I see very little happening in the near future as it is customery for these kind of agreements to take a long time until it formulates itself to the satisfaction of the parties so that they can sell it to the public.

 

I still have this feeling that Turkey is preparing it's population for the eventual recognition of AG with minimum reparations possible.

[Yervant1]

I have severely conflicting thoughts and feelings about all this. When I give in to emotions I feel betrayed and belittled as an Armenian. But when I put emotions aside I come to the same conclusion as you Yervand. What have we achieved so far in terms of G recognition? OK couple of dozens of countries have recognized it, movies have been made, songs have been composed, books have been written ... We march and demand justice every 04/24, we erect monuments, blah blah blah. Then what? We can keep at it for another 100 years and still be at the same dead end (or just completely lose importance and the interest of those who now care). The sad truth is that in all likeliness NOTHING would ever happen. Because we don't have that much weight in this big crazy world. We will never have justice and have no other choice but to become part of an un-just game with the maximum amount of discretion, pragmatism and (why not) a little slyness.

I have the same feelings as you are, angry, upset and only if I had this magical power under my control, and then quickly the reality sets in and you start thinking that every single country is in it for itself and they are all after their own interests. We would have done exactly the same thing if we were a powerful nation, so why are we expecting them to do the moral thing instead of looking after their own interests.

 

When some of us think realistically, quickly we are labeled as defeatists and because of people like us that we are in this situation. Let me give you some examples as to what happened to countries that tried to the things that did not alliegn with the plan of the powers. Iraq for example turned into graveyard when Saddam tried to sell it's oil with Euro instead of US dollars thus undermining the value of the dollar. Another example is Serbia, and let us not forget Georgia when it fell from it's heights when it challanged Russia and became a non stable country in just five days.

 

Need I say more, until we get ourselves steel ladle (Yerkate shereb) we need to play the game and do our best to benefit from it.

[Yervant1]

i guess that can be one way ...

consolidate & cut your losses and move on, spasenq mi aveli lav pahi, yerb menq aveli patrast k@linenq yerb mer dzerqin aveli hzor xaghaqarer k@linen yve menq mer aseliq@ kasenq ?

 

 

kareli e nayes iyspev..

 

yerek tarets @enkerojs het eyi xosum, inqn el mi etpisy ban asets, amenahetaqrqir iyn er vro na asum e.. " unenq Artsaxi Haykakan HAnrapetutyun - mern e, HAykakan e, inchu chen gnum bnakven shenatsnen ?? inchi en spasum ?? inch tarberutyun HAyastan e norits mek hogh n e menq enq azatagrel,,, inch chen gnum ?? te partadir arevmtyan hayastan pit lini or gnan.. chen gna et jamanak el chen gna...

"

Shat shitak khosq!

[Z'areh]

i guess that can be one way ...

consolidate & cut your losses and move on, spasenq mi aveli lav pahi, yerb menq aveli patrast k@linenq yerb mer dzerqin aveli hzor xaghaqarer k@linen yve menq mer aseliq@ kasenq ?

 

 

kareli e nayes iyspev..

 

yerek tarets @enkerojs het eyi xosum, inqn el mi etpisy ban asets, amenahetaqrqir iyn er vro na asum e.. " unenq Artsaxi Haykakan HAnrapetutyun - mern e, HAykakan e, inchu chen gnum bnakven shenatsnen ?? inchi en spasum ?? inch tarberutyun HAyastan e norits mek hogh n e menq enq azatagrel,,, inch chen gnum ?? te partadir arevmtyan hayastan pit lini or gnan.. chen gna et jamanak el chen gna...

"

 

Mosjan, I love it when you talk about our lost homeland and the memory of our dead relatives as if it were a stock market loss! Yes, you are right we should wait for an opportune moment to invest in our homeland, these days the rate of return is quite low. A friend told me to look into Africa, the futures are great for such investments.

 

What is more "hzor" xaghacard than your own home stolen from you ! when you loose that card what more Hzor card are you looking or waiting for? Are joking or just saying whatever comes to your mind?

 

As for your friend who laments for not populating Artsakh, perhaps Armenians are afraid that a future thief coming to power in Armenia might sell Artsakh too, to keep his job. Sarkisian has only begun, let's see how he's going to end, now that he is the darling of all major powers involved.

 

[MosJan]

Mosjan, I love it when you talk about our lost homeland and the memory of our dead relatives as if it were a stock market loss! Yes, you are right we should wait for an opportune moment to invest in our homeland, these days the rate of return is quite low. A friend told me to look into Africa, the futures are great for such investments.

 

What is more "hzor" xaghacard than your own home stolen from you ! when you loose that card what more Hzor card are you looking or waiting for? Are joking or just saying whatever comes to your mind?

 

As for your friend who laments for not populating Artsakh, perhaps Armenians are afraid that a future thief coming to power in Armenia might sell Artsakh too, to keep his job. Sarkisian has only begun, let's see how he's going to end, now that he is the darling of all major powers involved.

 

 

zareh tars votqi es ardnatsel ?

 

 

mek varkyan ver nayir ? nshan@ tesnum es ?? yes harts em talis, isk du ??

[Arpa]

Shall we rename this thtread "proto-GOALS"?

Fanfare

http://www.defence.gov.au/ARMY/rmcband/ima...anfare_Team.jpg

And Red Carpet

http://flypaper.bluefly.com/images/red_carpet.jpg

http://www.fotosearch.com/bigcomp.asp?path...8/x17044166.jpg

Except, the tragic irony, that this “Red Carpet” is dyed with the blood of our ancestors.

BTW. The event is making the international news;

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...bwomhgD9BAS2SG0

Edited October 14, 2009 by Arpa

[Yervant1]

It seems to me that, those of us who are against the protocols are only the ones that really cares for the homeland. They have the exclusive right to feel patriotic and true Armenian, the rest I guess not. Knee jerk reactions as usual, talk is cheap.

[Nané]

Everything they say is in the line of presenting themselves as IMPORTANT yet everything we say is how small, poor, landlocked and unimportant Armenia is.

 

Hellektor - I never said we are unimportant. Yes, we are disadvantaged (we are small, poor and landlocked) but not irrelevent or unimportant. We simply lack the power to demand the acknowledgement of our importance. And nobody is going to shout out "Armenia! You are important! We just don't want to admit it so that we can keep you under our thumb and pursue our own agendas! Oh and at the same time pretend to be doing YOU a favor." When, one day, we DO grab hold of the steel ladle ... that will be a different story.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Nané

[Z'areh]

It seems to me that, those of us who are against the protocols are only the ones that really cares for the homeland. They have the exclusive right to feel patriotic and true Armenian, the rest I guess not. Knee jerk reactions as usual, talk is cheap.

 

No Yervant, this is what you are saying, this is your own perception of what is being discussed, which is very dangerous, backward looking and out of date mentality. There are a lot of people in Armenia who are against these dangerous protocols and they could even be in the majority, we can never find out because the government controls the polls. One thing is for sure diaspora is overwhelmingly opposed because there is no one "forcing" acceptance of these papers down our throats as they are doing it in Armenia. Sarkisian's tour of diaspora clearly showed that.

 

 

 

[Z'areh]

Armenian political naiveté is mind boggling. Turkey has proven to be the enemy of Armenia. Even if borders are opened, which I have to see it to believe it, Turkey's assurance to Azerbaijan not to worry much about these agreements is not for nothing. Those who dismiss this as Turkish political posturing for "internal" purposes only are kidding themselves.

Below I will show that what the Turks have said so far has been true.

 

If the saying "those who do not learn from the past are doomed..." is correct, then you only have to look at the representatives of major powers standing behind the signing table to realize that history is repeating itself, again.

 

In the past anytime Armenia has been in such a situation, she has lost!

 

One may argue that it need not be the case this time, but looking at the whole process, and the way it was imposed on us, it does not look promising.

 

i) Armenian officials (President, foreign minister) have claimed views that put them in a diametric opposite positions with the claims of Turkish high officials. specifically on Armenian Genocide and Artsakh issues.

 

ii) Nalbandian was caught by surprise the announcement of the day of signing, October 10, and even went on to announce that no such date have been chosen, and that such announcements should be made jointly.

 

iii) Armenia's foreign Ministry spokesman denied the reporters claim that the representatives of OSCE Minsk group countries would be invited to witness the signing ceremony. Mr. Nalbandian went further, he said such presence would directly tie Nagorno-Karabagh issue with these Protocols.

 

Today it has become clear that all of the above points correspond correctly to the Turkish side and Armenia has proven to be wrong, and a mere "follower", definitely not an equal partner in these negotiations. Any bold announcements by Armenian officials are worthless, since they have been proven to be wrong or accurately, lying. And as undemocratically (even by pretense) elected individuals who have shown such weak compliance, it means extreme danger for our nationhood.

 

 

It is quite simple, really.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Z'areh

[Yervant1]

No Yervant, this is what you are saying, this is your own perception of what is being discussed, which is very dangerous, backward looking and out of date mentality. There are a lot of people in Armenia who are against these dangerous protocols and they could even be in the majority, we can never find out because the government controls the polls. One thing is for sure diaspora is overwhelmingly opposed because there is no one "forcing" acceptance of these papers down our throats as they are doing it in Armenia. Sarkisian's tour of diaspora clearly showed that.

No it's not what I'm saying that's exactly what you are saying, for example look at what you are saying here right this moment that I'm backword and my mentality is very dengerous and out of date, need I say more? Get a grip and stop throwing things as you please and put your money where's your mouth is and do something useful instead of preaching that the doomsday is here and we are all going to perish.

For almost 100 years we did what you are saying we should do! What did we achieve? Big old nothing. Please express your opinion without demeaning others and calling names.

[Z'areh]

Furthermore, anytime Russia and the West stand side by side in agreement, one has to ask what has brought these old enemies together, what is the common interest between these two long-time adversaries. The answer is simple i) Oil, ii) containing political Islam or reaching out to the Muslim world. In the case of Azerbaijan and Turkey these two interests come together in a perfect package.

 

There is a bonus for Russia and Turkey. Open the Turkish border with Armenia, "liberate" Armenia from Georgian terror, render Georgia completely irrelevant, perhaps even rise-up the Armenian population in Javakhk and Russia destroys Georgia the way we know it today, Armenia gains new mortal enemy and will be in total reliance on Turkey for its life-line. You can deduce what will be Armenia's position at that moment.

 

No wonder Turkey is calmly assuring Azerbaijan not to worry much.

 

I can be accused of over-reacting, or even being paranoid. From looking at our past history I consider it my duty and right to be extremely suspicious and not trusting anything that takes the shape of imposition on our nation. The fact that everybody is in agreement about the inherent risks and dangers of these imposed agreements, all the while cannot answer the glaring "what ifs ?", they simply prove my point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yervant1]

Zareh so far your last post was the best post you wrote in this thread, that we both agree that Russia and US are in agreement and they have an agenda or a plan for their own benefit. Either we go along with it and benefit from it somewhat, which is my thinking or oppose it and pay the price and become irrelevant which you are suggesting. Staying on the sidelines is not an option and I'd rather be inside partaking in the game and collect the windfall than be outside and be an enemy of the powers.

 

Just for the record, we are not that important on the global scale of things, tha's why we should play the game and get the reward instead of backlash. You call this mentality defeatist and I call it pragmatic.

[Z'areh]

Zareh so far your last post was the best post you wrote in this thread,

 

Wrong again Yervant, it's as bad as my other posts

 

[Boghos]

Zareh so far your last post was the best post you wrote in this thread, that we both agree that Russia and US are in agreement and they have an agenda or a plan for their own benefit. Either we go along with it and benefit from it somewhat, which is my thinking or oppose it and pay the price and become irrelevant which you are suggesting. Staying on the sidelines is not an option and I'd rather be inside partaking in the game and collect the windfall than be outside and be an enemy of the powers.

 

Just for the record, we are not that important on the global scale of things, tha's why we should play the game and get the reward instead of backlash. You call this mentality defeatist and I call it pragmatic.

That's exactly what I think as well. I hope the Armenia leadership understands that and can use it for the country's benefit. I have seen many arguments for not opening the borders, none whatsoever show Armenia losing. Armenia is a real country not a troupe singing Bank Ottoman day and night.

 

As you mention Armenian is a small country, these are usually the free riders in international relations. It is a matter of record and it makes total sense. In playing along we have many ways we can benefit. Or we can be the Albania pre-1989.

[Z'areh]

That's exactly what I think as well. I hope the Armenia leadership understands that and can use it for the country's benefit. I have seen many arguments for not opening the borders, none whatsoever show Armenia losing. Armenia is a real country not a troupe singing Bank Ottoman day and night.

 

As you mention Armenian is a small country, these are usually the free riders in international relations. It is a matter of record and it makes total sense. In playing along we have many ways we can benefit. Or we can be the Albania pre-1989.

 

 

You don't know how much I hope I am dead wrong and you are right.

[Yervant1]

Once again we Armenians missed a great opportunity and failed to unite. If you ask every single Armenian about our weakness, without any hesitation they all will say disunity, but unfortunately just like the adage goes do as I say, not as I do.

 

For the Turks the protocols were not the issue but the division that it would cause and separate us even further apart, mind you they were succesful again or maybe we are too predictable for them to play with us. Our leaders play the unity facade for their propaganda purposes by inviting the head of the denominatios during celebrations, memorials, or other occasions, but when the real test came they were no where to be found except spewing hate and fear mongering.

 

We could have easily stood behind our leader, whether we liked him or not, whether he is a good person or not, whether he is the right person for the presidency or not, because this was not about him, is it? It was about our country against the outside forces that are trying to take without giving anything back.

 

This was a chance to tell the world that we Armenians are united and we are not going to take BS anymore, that they can't use us against each other. We can have our dissent and divisions internally for a healthy debates and improve our democracy, but when it comes against ouside forces we must have a united front.

 

I wish and hope that when another chance comes along, when the whole world is watching our every move we do better.

 

 

[DejaVou]

I’m new to this site and I salute you all, my brothers and sisters, regardless of which part of this planet you may happen to dwell on.

 

Let me get straight to the point.

 

It seems to me that we’re fighting a shadow, not our own. This shadow belongs to those who have a practice of fighting through a proxy. Turks are just a tool or a vehicle to bring about total destruction of our nation. Turks would not be a difficult to deal with if there was no one behind their back insuring total misfortune for us and success for them.

 

Our real enemy is the one who constantly create favorable environment for Turks to continue a destruction of our identity physically and morally. I know from historical facts and from their own words that their goal is to exterminate us as a nation. I do not need to discuss this with anyone to prove that to myself. I just want to understand why. Why they use all available means, like Turks and the powers to program public opinion, to destroy us? It would not be too long before any Armenian who mentions Armenian Genocide will be labeled as hater and obstacle to peace.

 

The truth is suppressed. But how much longer can we fight the shadow and ignore the fact that our real enemy is not the puppet itself, all though it has to be neutralized, but the one who controls the puppet? Are we doomed for failure with this illusion?

 

I am sorry if I have embarrassed anyone with this. It’s just seems so obvious and real that continue to ignore this situation is equal to complete defeat. I begin to understand those Armenians who altered their last name for the sake of well being of their children. If we are subject to complete extermination and we have no leadership that can unite us for survival, what means do we have to continue to live?

 

[Dave]

And what shadow is this that you are talking about? The Illuminati? The Jews? Whatever it is it must also be controling Sargsyan then.

[Boghos]

And what shadow is this that you are talking about? The Illuminati? The Jews? Whatever it is it must also be controling Sargsyan then.

 

The Freemasons? The doenme? The Vulcans? The Simpsons?

[Z'areh]

We could have easily stood behind our leader, whether we liked him or not, whether he is a good person or not, whether he is the right person for the presidency or not, because this was not about him, is it? It was about our country against the outside forces that are trying to take without giving anything back.

 

This was a chance to tell the world that we Armenians are united and we are not going to take BS anymore, that they can't use us against each other. We can have our dissent and divisions internally for a healthy debates and improve our democracy, but when it comes against ouside forces we must have a united front.

 

I wish and hope that when another chance comes along, when the whole world is watching our every move we do better.

 

I am sorry Yervant I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

Your post above is mostly nonsenses. What does it mean "we should have been with our leader" good or bad, a despot or a democrat, a thief or a honest representative of the people...

 

How is one to have a "healthy" debate internally, which to me means criticism, and severe ones if the need be, and show "unity" internationally? What is the mechanism for that? How can an editorial in an opposition newspaper severely criticize an action of the government and then turn and praise the president for the same action?

 

That is not how it works, such an utopian existence, hloo yev hnazant, can only be possible in a perfect society as was the Soviet Union.

 

You are absolutely right that we should be united against outside forces. But, united does not mean saying "yes" blindly to dangerous moves by a very dubiously elected leader.

 

March 1st, 2008. Beginning of troubles for Sarkisian,

March 2 - July 4 2008. Mounting international criticism on Sarkisian about the February 19 elections and the way the authorities handled the protesting crowds, which shamefully resulted in deaths.

July 5, 2008. Associate Press announces while in Russia, Sarkisian invites the Turkish President to Armenia.

Following this announcement...we heard nothing about March 1 anymore.

 

Yervant, even a very superficial study or a revision of this man's career one is left with no doubt that yes, indeed this is all about him.

 

When Armenian political forces within AND outside Armenia were SCREAMING, over and over, that the elections have to be fair and peaceful otherwise it would threated our national security, THIS is what they were talking about.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2009 by Z'areh

[Arpa]

 

Boghos, look at this. Below it says that Kirk was from the Marash region. I doubt it. It may be as imaginary, and wishful thinking as the rest of the article.

However, I would not be surprised. The below may be the figment of someone’s imagination, but this is not. I was kind of witness to it. During those heady days of 1991-92 an American Armenian businessman was on a fast track negotiations with a furkish hrya businessman trying to develop the port at Trabzon, until the bureaucracy of the day intervened and stopped the venture.

The fact that the below report is a manufactured one, I am sure there are many on both sides who are entertaining such dreams.

----

http://news.am/en/news/6692.html

 

15:18 / 10/16/2009



Vice-President of the Lincy Foundation Harut Sassounian refuted information available on the German Dwworld website, that Kirk Kerkorian intends to make investments in various Turkish regions after Armenian-Turkish border opening. In his letter to NEWS.am Harut Sassounian called this “misinformation and phony.” “Mr. Kerkorian has never had or has such intensions,” Sassounian underlined.

The Co-Chair of Armenia-Turkey Friendship Group Yener Altin told Dwworld that Kerkorian intended to make investments in various Turkish regions, particularly create the hotel chain in South-East of Turkey. Altin also informed that Kerkorian is originally the citizen of Turkish Maras region. However, the Lincy Foundation Vice-President refuted this information as well.

News from Armenia - NEWS.am

 

 

 

[Yervant1]

I am sorry Yervant I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

Your post above is mostly nonsenses. What does it mean "we should have been with our leader" good or bad, a despot or a democrat, a thief or a honest representative of the people...

 

How is one to have a "healthy" debate internally, which to me means criticism, and severe ones if the need be, and show "unity" internationally? What is the mechanism for that? How can an editorial in an opposition newspaper severely criticize an action of the government and then turn and praise the president for the same action?

 

That is not how it works, such an utopian existence, hloo yev hnazant, can only be possible in a perfect society as was the Soviet Union.

 

You are absolutely right that we should be united against outside forces. But, united does not mean saying "yes" blindly to dangerous moves by a very dubiously elected leader.

 

March 1st, 2008. Beginning of troubles for Sarkisian,

March 2 - July 4 2008. Mounting international criticism on Sarkisian about the February 19 elections and the way the authorities handled the protesting crowds, which shamefully resulted in deaths.

July 5, 2008. Associate Press announces while in Russia, Sarkisian invites the Turkish President to Armenia.

Following this announcement...we heard nothing about March 1 anymore.

 

Yervant, even a very superficial study or a revision of this man's career one is left with no doubt that yes, indeed this is all about him.

 

When Armenian political forces within AND outside Armenia were SCREAMING, over and over, that the elections have to be fair and peaceful otherwise it would threated our national security, THIS is what they were talking about.

Zareh you seem to have an understanding problem, you disagree with me by calling my post nonsense and yet later you agree with me that when it comes to outside forces we should unite. That is exactly what I'm trying to point out, but than again you missed the boat and started to convolute the issue by putting words into my mouth. In no way I'm justifying what Serge does or doesn't, that is a dirty laundry that can be handled internally and not in front of the world while the spotlight is on us. We needed to look united, which you agreed as well but unfortunately did not happen.

[Z'areh]

I am sorry Yervant I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

Your post above is mostly nonsenses. What does it mean "we should have been with our leader" good or bad, a despot or a democrat, a thief or a honest representative of the people...

 

How is one to have a "healthy" debate internally, which to me means criticism, and severe ones if the need be, and show "unity" internationally? What is the mechanism for that? How can an editorial in an opposition newspaper severely criticize an action of the government and then turn and praise the president for the same action?

 

 

Dear Yervant, I don't have an understanding problem. But you seem to have a reading problem.

 

More important than "our" personal problems, which do verge on being insulting by the way, the post would be better served if the questions I posed were actually answered.