yergatuni1 Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 (edited) /PanARMENIAN.Net/ 40 thousand Armenians live in Turkey at present, Turkish Prime Minister said. "They came to our country because they had difficulties in Armenia. If necessary, we will exile them, but I think it will be inhuman," Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in Warsaw. He also said that regional problems affect Turkish-Armenian relations. "There are problems between Azerbaijan and Armenia and we can't neglect these," he said, Milliyet reported. If this isn't enough of a sign for our Armenian leaders to break off negotiations with these mutants and mongols I don't know what is. Edited May 16, 2009 by yergatuni1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosank Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 They came to our country because they had difficulties in Armenia. If necessary, we will exile them, but I think it will be inhuman, 1- they came to the entire region in the first place 2- maybe erdogan should meet with a few german skinheads, and discuss what they think of the 4 million turks living in germany at the moment If this isn't enough of a sign for our Armenian leaders to break off negotiations with these mutants and mongols I don't know what is. i don't agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yergatuni1 Posted May 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 (edited) 1- they came to the entire region in the first place 2- maybe erdogan should meet with a few german skinheads, and discuss what they think of the 4 million turks living in germany at the moment i don't agree what has Armenia achieved since opening dialogue with the turks? stalling, indirect threats, the defeat of the Genocide recognition? (for now at least, this was our best chance and we unwittingly gave cover for Obama to back out of his pledge) yes all these....they are also trying to get the Armenians to recognize the Kars Treaty and agree to a historical commission, all for the sake of trade which may cause more problems with Armenia rather then help.... - Instead, corruption should be cleaned up in Armenia and a railway should be opened to Iran - a much safer trading partner (right now we don't have a sufficient railway system with Iran. - Also the Kars treaty is illegal and recognizing it would nullify Wilsonian Armenia and make the Genocide recognition insignificant. And don't forget there is no Statute of Limitations on the crime of Genocide. it seems the turks know better then we do whats at stake if the Genocide is officially recognized.... Bottom line is nothing good has happened since we began talking with the turks, they are also still making demands with their Azeri bretheren about Artsakh.... Edited May 27, 2009 by yergatuni1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosank Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 what has Armenia achieved since opening dialogue with the turks? stalling, indirect threats, the defeat of the Genocide recognition? (for now at least, this was our best chance and we unwittingly gave cover for Obama to back out of his pledge) yes all these....they are also trying to get the Armenians to recognize the Kars Treaty and agree to a historical commission/quote] how is this different from before we started talks? the only difference is that now we have the ability to influence decisions made in our regard. turkey is pretending to be the peace-factor, and regional power in the caucasus, if armenia openly disagrees with certain parts of its 'peace plan', it would be quite a blow to its prestige (as opposed to when turkey shunned armenia anyway, and didn't care much about anything concerning it to begin with) turkey is not about to risk having the armenians go against any karabakh plan, or kars signing, in order to have relations between the two. anyway, turkey has dropped alot of those preconditions (which were the main reason as to why discussions havn't moved forward for the last 20 years) because armenia refused to drop the genocide claim, or leave artsax, or sign the kars treaty. the armenian side isn't stupid, this are issues they will never back down on, since they are an attack on our national sovereignty. basically, the turks understand that in this case, it is a question of take it or leave it, for them. -and btw, so far, all that has been signed is an agreement to eventually normalise relations, there were no preconditions involved, or time tables or anything, so lets stop worrying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yergatuni1 Posted June 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 hosank: we shall see if you are right. however, it is certain that these talks between Armenia and the turks have damaged our efforts to get Genocide recognition...no one should underestimate official genocide recognition, it has huge consequences for the region; all of the turks political leverage will go out the window, they will be forced to make significant concessions (and rightfully so). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosank Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 it is certain that these talks between Armenia and the turks have damaged our efforts to get Genocide recognition... not really if anything it has made it more open. turkey has been flat out denying the genocide since 1965 (before then it didn't even have any official position on it, because it was an unspoken thing). if anything, the armenian side trying to ignore turkey till recognition of the genocide is more harmful to the recognition than not; considering we will be waiting a long time for the turks to do so, and this strategy has not yet born fruit so far in the last 50 years we have been implementing it. turkey is a very precarious state. it is probably not a good idea to attack a fascistic, ultranationalist country with an identity crisis, with genocide recognition and so on. all this will do is fuel anti-armenian sentiment by kemalists who are unwilling to accept that their grandpraents could have been massmurderers, and strengthening their resolve that armenians are foreigners, and a "jealous tiny nation..blablabla.." like we hear all the time. essentially, this is a very complex diplomatic game. turkey's attempt at jumpstarting relations with armenia is not simply because it suddenly sees its tiny neighbour with a new eye, but because it is part of turkey's self-assigned new role as the regional big brother. this of course is part of a wider geo-strategic goal of impressing its own big brothers (russia, the US, and the EU). this is partly because of turkish aspirations for EU membership, or at least long-lasting trade relations with the west, azerbaijan, russia and iran. thus, i find that the whole prospect of genocide recognition SHOULD be done in this light of supposed reconciliation. because, one can argue, that how do you wish to reconcile, if you don't admit to the past. this view, in my opinion may make the recognition of genocide a much more tangible goal in turkish-armenian relations than mutual poo-pooing. so if anything, (though i admit that acknowledging the plan to normalise relations was done at a bad time by the armenian government -ap.23rd-) i still think that ultimately, the US's new bolshevik leader comrad obama is the largest threat to recognition, and in effect he was looking for anything to get him out of recognising the genocide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yergatuni1 Posted June 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 not really if anything it has made it more open. turkey has been flat out denying the genocide since 1965 (before then it didn't even have any official position on it, because it was an unspoken thing). if anything, the armenian side trying to ignore turkey till recognition of the genocide is more harmful to the recognition than not; considering we will be waiting a long time for the turks to do so, and this strategy has not yet born fruit so far in the last 50 years we have been implementing it. turkey is a very precarious state. it is probably not a good idea to attack a fascistic, ultranationalist country with an identity crisis, with genocide recognition and so on. all this will do is fuel anti-armenian sentiment by kemalists who are unwilling to accept that their grandpraents could have been massmurderers, and strengthening their resolve that armenians are foreigners, and a "jealous tiny nation..blablabla.." like we hear all the time. essentially, this is a very complex diplomatic game. turkey's attempt at jumpstarting relations with armenia is not simply because it suddenly sees its tiny neighbour with a new eye, but because it is part of turkey's self-assigned new role as the regional big brother. this of course is part of a wider geo-strategic goal of impressing its own big brothers (russia, the US, and the EU). this is partly because of turkish aspirations for EU membership, or at least long-lasting trade relations with the west, azerbaijan, russia and iran. thus, i find that the whole prospect of genocide recognition SHOULD be done in this light of supposed reconciliation. because, one can argue, that how do you wish to reconcile, if you don't admit to the past. this view, in my opinion may make the recognition of genocide a much more tangible goal in turkish-armenian relations than mutual poo-pooing. so if anything, (though i admit that acknowledging the plan to normalise relations was done at a bad time by the armenian government -ap.23rd-) i still think that ultimately, the US's new bolshevik leader comrad obama is the largest threat to recognition, and in effect he was looking for anything to get him out of recognising the genocide. Recognizing the genocide under reconcilliation between Armenia and the turks is a suspect idea. How do you recognize the genocide properly under reconcilliation? Genocide is a very serious crime, like I said before, it carries heavy compensation with it. A whole nation and its people was destroyed and erased from the Armenian Plateau. I'm afraid that if the Armenians and turks were reconciled then the Genocide would be acknowledged but the Armenians would be coerced into accepting an apology and little else (maybe they would get Ani as a symbolic show - that's it). In effect the Genocide recognition would be watered down. I just don't see the turks giving any compensation under a reconciled atmosphere. They have to be forced to give compensation, just like the Germans were forced to pay for what they did to the jews. If all we want is an apology and open borders then maybe your idea has merit.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosank Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 ok, first and foremost, please get the idea of turkey willingly handing back western armenia out of your head. this will never happen. the sooner armenians understand that, the faster we will make more tangible steps. but turkey handing over 1/4 of its landmass to armenia will not be happening in the near future, no matter what legal action, or mutual blockade we can do. the only way i ever see the entirety of western armenia rejoining the RA (hopefully by that time, it will be the KA, kingdom of armenia ) is if somehow World War 3 breaks out and armenia manages to defeat one of the regions most powerful armies..or if the kurds and turks mutually nuke eachother..or what ever.. another myth that must be broken land appropriation =/= genocide recognition. the territory of wilsonian armenia was created AFTER the genocide, and does not go hand in hand with it. (this is something the turks also don't seem to understand)..recognising the genocide does not have anything to do with land reparations. wilsonian armenia is discussed in the sevres and lausanne treaties and does not relate in any way to the previous genocide of the armenians. however, here is a more tangible solution, legal action against turkey which, in turn may result in the turks giving us a channel to the black sea. OR at least, the territory ceded by the USSR of the original armenian SSR to turkey in 1923 (a treaty which armenia didn't sign, and at the time, was not part of the USSR, thus one may argue that this is potentially illegal)..so as far as legal or military alternatives to regaining w. armenia go, this is about it. now on to more serious stuff.. ow do you recognize the genocide properly under reconcilliation? Genocide is a very serious crime, like I said before, it carries heavy compensation with it. ok, let me explain it in the simplest way possible: alternative 1- f*ck you turkey, you commited genocide, i'm never talking to you again, give me back half of anatolia, recognise your crime or alternative 2- turkey, we are neighbours due to historical irony, this is a fact we must accept, in order to progress in the future, we must cooperate, and to build a strong base for cooperation, we must accept the past. so which one seems like the better choice. here is what i think we have been trying option 1 for the last...95 years...and so far..we havn't recieved an inch of land from them. infact, all we got were more pogroms in istambul in the 50s, and we got hrant dink killed. option 2 works by appealing to turkey's extremely large ego, turkey the wise, turkey the moral..the turks are trying to place that image in the eyes of the civilised world. yet, how can they portray this, when trying to be included as mediators in the georgian and artsax conflicts, when they have so many skeletons in the closet? turkey is a very fragmented society held together through fear, and a false understanding of a national myth created by the blond blue eyed father of the turkish nation, mustafa. ..in other words, its built on a house of cards. turkey is extremely divided between kemalists, the military, socialists, pro-europeans, eurosceptics, liberals, islamic radicals, kurds etc. as you know there is an intellectual society within turkey who is prepared to accept the genocide as fact. this in turn enraged the grey wolfs, and as a result creates controversy, getting scores of younger generations of turks to read about their history and the armenians (a taboo subject till now). -(and i must add, 15 year old armenians from burj hamood or glendale spending their days surfing turkish youtube videos or forums writing 'fuk you' is not helping) people within turkey have been taking these steps, in including genocide rhetoric without using it in order to purposely inflame the turks ex: hrant dink, who openly used the word genocide, and yet always spoke of peace and reconciliation between turks and armenians. and he was killed for it. (another ironic fact, he was absolutely vilified by the dashnak party for his less-than-radical stance on turkish-armenian relations...but after he was murdered they were the first to cry out about the murder of a great armenian hero..LOOLL) but that's the point. hrant dink is a human example of what armenians world wide should be doing: - give the turks a sensible deal. tell them: economics and business should not be mixed with politics. let us cooperate, and in this frame of peaceful diplomacy, we can come to justice for the crimes commited against our people i.e. genocide. (the greeks also have beef with the turks for many reasons, and yet they are trade partners and are both in NATO). so, if turkey refuses this down-to earth proposal, which 95% of chances dictate that they will...then they will look quite bad, and the armenians will seem like those who are considerate and flexible. this in turn will turn world opinion in favour of the armenians and put more pressure on the turks. don't be fooled, the conflict may be 90 years old, but this present engagement is dangerously contemporary, time to come up with new tactics boys. -lastly, a little word on recognition. i agree that turkey should give economic compensation to the RA for the genocide (if short of territorial compensation), like the germans did to israel. realistically, armenia does not have the resources, money or man power to invade and occupy western armenia, and we are still struggling with the small armenia we have left,...so some turkish money would be nice.. 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Louise Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 ok, first and foremost, please get the idea of turkey willingly handing back western armenia out of your head. this will never happen. the sooner armenians understand that, the faster we will make more tangible steps. but turkey handing over 1/4 of its landmass to armenia will not be happening in the near future, no matter what legal action, or mutual blockade we can do. the only way i ever see the entirety of western armenia rejoining the RA (hopefully by that time, it will be the KA, kingdom of armenia ) is if somehow World War 3 breaks out and armenia manages to defeat one of the regions most powerful armies..or if the kurds and turks mutually nuke eachother..or what ever.. another myth that must be broken land appropriation =/= genocide recognition. the territory of wilsonian armenia was created AFTER the genocide, and does not go hand in hand with it. (this is something the turks also don't seem to understand)..recognising the genocide does not have anything to do with land reparations. wilsonian armenia is discussed in the sevres and lausanne treaties and does not relate in any way to the previous genocide of the armenians. however, here is a more tangible solution, legal action against turkey which, in turn may result in the turks giving us a channel to the black sea. OR at least, the territory ceded by the USSR of the original armenian SSR to turkey in 1923 (a treaty which armenia didn't sign, and at the time, was not part of the USSR, thus one may argue that this is potentially illegal)..so as far as legal or military alternatives to regaining w. armenia go, this is about it. now on to more serious stuff.. ok, let me explain it in the simplest way possible: alternative 1- f*ck you turkey, you commited genocide, i'm never talking to you again, give me back half of anatolia, recognise your crime or alternative 2- turkey, we are neighbours due to historical irony, this is a fact we must accept, in order to progress in the future, we must cooperate, and to build a strong base for cooperation, we must accept the past. so which one seems like the better choice. here is what i think we have been trying option 1 for the last...95 years...and so far..we havn't recieved an inch of land from them. infact, all we got were more pogroms in istambul in the 50s, and we got hrant dink killed. option 2 works by appealing to turkey's extremely large ego, turkey the wise, turkey the moral..the turks are trying to place that image in the eyes of the civilised world. yet, how can they portray this, when trying to be included as mediators in the georgian and artsax conflicts, when they have so many skeletons in the closet? turkey is a very fragmented society held together through fear, and a false understanding of a national myth created by the blond blue eyed father of the turkish nation, mustafa. ..in other words, its built on a house of cards. turkey is extremely divided between kemalists, the military, socialists, pro-europeans, eurosceptics, liberals, islamic radicals, kurds etc. as you know there is an intellectual society within turkey who is prepared to accept the genocide as fact. this in turn enraged the grey wolfs, and as a result creates controversy, getting scores of younger generations of turks to read about their history and the armenians (a taboo subject till now). -(and i must add, 15 year old armenians from burj hamood or glendale spending their days surfing turkish youtube videos or forums writing 'fuk you' is not helping) people within turkey have been taking these steps, in including genocide rhetoric without using it in order to purposely inflame the turks ex: hrant dink, who openly used the word genocide, and yet always spoke of peace and reconciliation between turks and armenians. and he was killed for it. (another ironic fact, he was absolutely vilified by the dashnak party for his less-than-radical stance on turkish-armenian relations...but after he was murdered they were the first to cry out about the murder of a great armenian hero..LOOLL) but that's the point. hrant dink is a human example of what armenians world wide should be doing: - give the turks a sensible deal. tell them: economics and business should not be mixed with politics. let us cooperate, and in this frame of peaceful diplomacy, we can come to justice for the crimes commited against our people i.e. genocide. (the greeks also have beef with the turks for many reasons, and yet they are trade partners and are both in NATO). so, if turkey refuses this down-to earth proposal, which 95% of chances dictate that they will...then they will look quite bad, and the armenians will seem like those who are considerate and flexible. this in turn will turn world opinion in favour of the armenians and put more pressure on the turks. don't be fooled, the conflict may be 90 years old, but this present engagement is dangerously contemporary, time to come up with new tactics boys. -lastly, a little word on recognition. i agree that turkey should give economic compensation to the RA for the genocide (if short of territorial compensation), like the germans did to israel. realistically, armenia does not have the resources, money or man power to invade and occupy western armenia, and we are still struggling with the small armenia we have left,...so some turkish money would be nice.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- from Louise: Turks at it again and again: Now they are contesting the Blue Book and say it was war propaganda. Ara Sarafian will reply to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosank Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 qu'ils fassent ce qu'ils veulent. et c'est ça le problème, les arméniens se préoccupent trop de ce que font les turques...on s'en fout. si on ne les prends pas sérieusement ils ont l'air d'idiots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louise Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 qu'ils fassent ce qu'ils veulent. et c'est ça le problème, les arméniens se préoccupent trop de ce que font les turques...on s'en fout. si on ne les prends pas sérieusement ils ont l'air d'idiots ------------------------------------------------------------ On ne peut pas les laisser faire ! Il faut agir: Petition Against Six Denialist Corporations It has come to light that, contrary to their public statements of being good corporate citizens and champions of human rights, six American and British mega-corporations have been secretly lobbying the United States Congress not to recognize the Armenian Genocide. It has come to light that, contrary to their public statements of being good corporate citizens and champions of human rights, six American and British mega-corporations have been secretly lobbying the United States Congress not to recognize the Armenian Genocide. In the American system, it is customary for corporations to lobby Congress only on taxes and trade rules related to their specific businesses. It is however highly unusual and downright shameful for corporations to do the bidding of their foreign clients. BAE Systems Inc., Goodrich Corp., Northrop Grumman Corp., Raytheon Co., United Technologies Corp. and energy producer Chevron Corp are spending over a million dollars a week to lobby Congress. The world-wide Armenian community cannot match this level of expenditure. We can however raise our righteous voice by signing the petition below. The collected signatures will be hand delivered and emailed to the corporate heads and key stockholders of these companies. Make your voice heard today and sign the petition by visiting the following link! http://www.centerar.org/petition/ Center for Armenian Remembrance (CAR) ---------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yergatuni1 Posted July 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 First, sevres has alot to do with the genocide. Wilson granted lands to the armenians so that they would be free of turkish domination and further massacres, please re-read the treaty...second the turks will have little choice as to what they may want to keep if the genocide is officially recognized. of course they can keep what they want, no one will go to war for armenia over those lands, but if the turks give nothing they will lose standing, respect, leverage, and will eventually join with the likes if more radical less western countries, their ties to the west will deteriorate, - that is why there is such a huge effort to keep the genocide from being recognized.... ok, first and foremost, please get the idea of turkey willingly handing back western armenia out of your head. this will never happen. the sooner armenians understand that, the faster we will make more tangible steps. but turkey handing over 1/4 of its landmass to armenia will not be happening in the near future, no matter what legal action, or mutual blockade we can do. the only way i ever see the entirety of western armenia rejoining the RA (hopefully by that time, it will be the KA, kingdom of armenia ) is if somehow World War 3 breaks out and armenia manages to defeat one of the regions most powerful armies..or if the kurds and turks mutually nuke eachother..or what ever.. another myth that must be broken land appropriation =/= genocide recognition. the territory of wilsonian armenia was created AFTER the genocide, and does not go hand in hand with it. (this is something the turks also don't seem to understand)..recognising the genocide does not have anything to do with land reparations. wilsonian armenia is discussed in the sevres and lausanne treaties and does not relate in any way to the previous genocide of the armenians. however, here is a more tangible solution, legal action against turkey which, in turn may result in the turks giving us a channel to the black sea. OR at least, the territory ceded by the USSR of the original armenian SSR to turkey in 1923 (a treaty which armenia didn't sign, and at the time, was not part of the USSR, thus one may argue that this is potentially illegal)..so as far as legal or military alternatives to regaining w. armenia go, this is about it. now on to more serious stuff.. ok, let me explain it in the simplest way possible: alternative 1- f*ck you turkey, you commited genocide, i'm never talking to you again, give me back half of anatolia, recognise your crime or alternative 2- turkey, we are neighbours due to historical irony, this is a fact we must accept, in order to progress in the future, we must cooperate, and to build a strong base for cooperation, we must accept the past. so which one seems like the better choice. here is what i think we have been trying option 1 for the last...95 years...and so far..we havn't recieved an inch of land from them. infact, all we got were more pogroms in istambul in the 50s, and we got hrant dink killed. option 2 works by appealing to turkey's extremely large ego, turkey the wise, turkey the moral..the turks are trying to place that image in the eyes of the civilised world. yet, how can they portray this, when trying to be included as mediators in the georgian and artsax conflicts, when they have so many skeletons in the closet? turkey is a very fragmented society held together through fear, and a false understanding of a national myth created by the blond blue eyed father of the turkish nation, mustafa. ..in other words, its built on a house of cards. turkey is extremely divided between kemalists, the military, socialists, pro-europeans, eurosceptics, liberals, islamic radicals, kurds etc. as you know there is an intellectual society within turkey who is prepared to accept the genocide as fact. this in turn enraged the grey wolfs, and as a result creates controversy, getting scores of younger generations of turks to read about their history and the armenians (a taboo subject till now). -(and i must add, 15 year old armenians from burj hamood or glendale spending their days surfing turkish youtube videos or forums writing 'fuk you' is not helping) people within turkey have been taking these steps, in including genocide rhetoric without using it in order to purposely inflame the turks ex: hrant dink, who openly used the word genocide, and yet always spoke of peace and reconciliation between turks and armenians. and he was killed for it. (another ironic fact, he was absolutely vilified by the dashnak party for his less-than-radical stance on turkish-armenian relations...but after he was murdered they were the first to cry out about the murder of a great armenian hero..LOOLL) but that's the point. hrant dink is a human example of what armenians world wide should be doing: - give the turks a sensible deal. tell them: economics and business should not be mixed with politics. let us cooperate, and in this frame of peaceful diplomacy, we can come to justice for the crimes commited against our people i.e. genocide. (the greeks also have beef with the turks for many reasons, and yet they are trade partners and are both in NATO). so, if turkey refuses this down-to earth proposal, which 95% of chances dictate that they will...then they will look quite bad, and the armenians will seem like those who are considerate and flexible. this in turn will turn world opinion in favour of the armenians and put more pressure on the turks. don't be fooled, the conflict may be 90 years old, but this present engagement is dangerously contemporary, time to come up with new tactics boys. -lastly, a little word on recognition. i agree that turkey should give economic compensation to the RA for the genocide (if short of territorial compensation), like the germans did to israel. realistically, armenia does not have the resources, money or man power to invade and occupy western armenia, and we are still struggling with the small armenia we have left,...so some turkish money would be nice.. 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hosank Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 First, sevres has alot to do with the genocide. Wilson granted lands to the armenians so that they would be free of turkish domination and further massacres, please re-read the treaty.. not exactly. wilsonian armenia was given to the armenians on the basis of right to self determination, not as pitty for being victims of genocide. in other words, wilsonian armenia would have been reality even if the genocide had not happened. the sevres treaty is a territorial agreement, and is unrelated to human rights abuses,,,at least nominally. as for turkish recognition of the genocide. i think its less of an issue of international standing...i mean, lets face it...everyone else already knows about it weather they recognise it or not, it is more to keep its own population inline with the official government policy...that is why they are not recognising it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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