WTF?Bryza: Karabagh is part of Azerbaijan

[Sahak]

REGNUM Agency): American co-chair of the Minsk Group Mathew Bryza, in

an interview to BBC, has confirmed the announcement by Russia's

Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov that the sides have reached final

agreement on the key principles and are now hurdling over a few minor

issues.

 

`There are a few key elements we have to resolve. These are difficult

questions, which, as always are discussed at the end of

negotiations. But they can be resolved if both sides express a good

will.' Bryza did not disclose exactly which issues remain unresolved

so far. He did mention, however, that `Armenians have to realize that

Karabagh is part of Azerbaijan'.

 

Original article in Russian:

http://www.regnum.ru/news/armenia/1067232.html

 

I can't read Russian but based on this article it sounds like Armenia conceded NK to Azerbaijan

[hyethga]

REGNUM Agency): American co-chair of the Minsk Group Mathew Bryza, in

an interview to BBC, has confirmed the announcement by Russia's

Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov that the sides have reached final

agreement on the key principles and are now hurdling over a few minor

issues.

 

`There are a few key elements we have to resolve. These are difficult

questions, which, as always are discussed at the end of

negotiations. But they can be resolved if both sides express a good

will.' Bryza did not disclose exactly which issues remain unresolved

so far. He did mention, however, that `Armenians have to realize that

Karabagh is part of Azerbaijan'.

 

Original article in Russian:

http://www.regnum.ru/news/armenia/1067232.html

 

I can't read Russian but based on this article it sounds like Armenia conceded NK to Azerbaijan

 

Sargisyan would be dead by now and Armenia would be under some sort of military junta if that truly was the case. Ter-Petrosyan was forced to resign because he wanted to give Artsax away. The Kocharyan-Sargisyan leadership has been in power for more than 10 years; why concede now?

 

Just waive this as more obscure diplomatic language to feed the mouths of a select group of people.

 

[MosJan]

their is more to this then what the article is saying - it's politics

gave some time - we might know the other side of the story

[MyTerrain]

May Bryza and his diarrhea wife die of rectal cancer and AIDS . Scum of the earth.

 

 

 

 

Note:Please MyTerrain choose your words carefully, there is no need for this kind of expression, I edited a part of it.

Edited October 11, 2008 by Yervant1

[Yervant1]

EDWARD NALBANDYAN: "NAGORNO KARABAKH STATUS PRINCIPLE KEY POINT IN THIS CONFLICT"

 

Panorama.am

20:09 10/10/2008

 

Today the Foreign Ministers of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Russia, Edward

Nalbandyan, Elmar Aliev and Sergey Lavrov have had a meeting in the

frames of the CIS summit in Bishkek, reports the press service of

the Foreign Ministry of Armenia.

 

After the meeting, by the request of Armenian journalists, the

Foreign Minister of Armenia Edward Nalbandyan has made comments on

the ongoing stage of Nagorno Karabakh (Artsakh) conflict and the

status of negotiations.

 

To a question that recently announcements are being made that

the principle key points of Nagorno Karabakh (Artsakh) conflict

are agreed on, the Foreign Minister said that during the meeting

they have discussed Nagorno Karabakh conflict and its regulation

in the frames of the recommendations made by the OSCE Minsk group

co-chairmen. "Regarding the point that the principle questions

of Nagorno Karabakh conflict are solved, I'd like to repeat once

more that the status of Nagorno Karabakh is its principle question

in this conflict, which should be solved by the people of Nagorno

Karabakh. And if they say that the principle questions are solved,

then we could conclude that this part of the conflict is solved,"said the Foreign Minister of Armenia Edward Nalbandyan.

 

[Z'areh]

Bryza's statement about Artsax being "legally" part of Azerbaijan comes at the same time that Russia's Lavrov has clearly indicated a change of Kremlin's policy of neutrality. Lavrov now is saying that Armenia has no choice but to "solve" the Karbakh problem", a clear euphemism for major compromises, and adds "It [Armenia] really has few geographic and political options".

 

Is this a Russian payback for Armenia daring to go against Russian expectations by not officially recognizing South Ossetia and Abkhazia's independence?

 

Having Russia as a "friend" Armenia does not have to go far to look for enemies. Russia has always wanted Armenia (geography) regardless if people (Armenians) live in it, therefore couldn't give a rat's ass if Artsakh goes fully to Azerbaijan.

 

The Armenian leadership knows this very well. So hello NATO?

 

 

[Yervant1]

The Armenian leadership also knows that the Artsakh people would rather die than to live under Azeri rule. I think we are reading too much into what they are saying.

[hyethga]

Bryza's statement about Artsax being "legally" part of Azerbaijan comes at the same time that Russia's Lavrov has clearly indicated a change of Kremlin's policy of neutrality. Lavrov now is saying that Armenia has no choice but to "solve" the Karbakh problem", a clear euphemism for major compromises, and adds "It [Armenia] really has few geographic and political options".

 

Is this a Russian payback for Armenia daring to go against Russian expectations by not officially recognizing South Ossetia and Abkhazia's independence?

 

Having Russia as a "friend" Armenia does not have to go far to look for enemies. Russia has always wanted Armenia (geography) regardless if people (Armenians) live in it, therefore couldn't give a rat's ass if Artsakh goes fully to Azerbaijan.

 

The Armenian leadership knows this very well. So hello NATO?

 

Yeah right.

 

Russia's words are just for external consumption. If you honestly think that it's going to abandon its only ally and let an anti-Russian bloc be formed in the Caucasus, you're sadly mistaken.

 

And to even suggest induction into NATO just speaks of the late 19th century naivety that only the West can save us. You can't wholeheartedly choose one power and say "FU" to the other. That's just bad diplomacy.

[Arpa]

Their bark is worse than their bite.

Shun@ togh hache, du caravan@d qshe.

Շունը թող հաչէ, Դու կարավանըդ քշէ:

[MyTerrain]

May Bryza and his diarrhea wife die of rectal cancer and AIDS . Scum of the earth.

 

 

 

 

Note:Please MyTerrain choose your words carefully, there is no need for this kind of expression, I edited a part of it.

 

I'm just saying what I really wish happened to him and his entire family.

may his entire generation be cursed for this, may he get killed and eaten by a necrophile cannibal.

[Yervant1]

I'm just saying what I really wish happened to him and his entire family.

may his entire generation be cursed for this, may he get killed and eaten by a necrophile cannibal.

I feel your pain and frustration, but we can't go to that level.

[Z'areh]

Yeah right.

 

Russia's words are just for external consumption. If you honestly think that it's going to abandon its only ally and let an anti-Russian bloc be formed in the Caucasus, you're sadly mistaken.

 

And to even suggest induction into NATO just speaks of the late 19th century naivety that only the West can save us. You can't wholeheartedly choose one power and say "FU" to the other. That's just bad diplomacy.

 

 

I think ALL options should be left open, and put on the table, If Russia really values the strategic partnership with Armenia, it should act like one, that should include pro-Armenian declarations for "external consumption". Today one considers messages uttered for so-called "external consumption" to also mean sending messages for internal analysis. Read Lavrov's words, they are directed exclusively to the Armenian leadership, not others.

 

You say, it is not a good policy to say "FU", but that is exactly what Lavrov is saying to us.

 

All I know is when you put your faith, exclusively, on one entity chances are you will be taken advantage of, you will be weakened. that is why NATO exercises are a good way of reminding Russia that Armenia can develop other "friendships". Initially Lavrov said that Russia was not bothered by that, I think they are bothered by it, and perhaps saying Armenia has not too many POLITICAL as well as geographic options is a way to send a message of discontent.

 

The Russian mentality of maintaining control over the so-called "near abroad" is dangerous and should be disproved and called as it is: bogus and reeking of Soviet colonialism.

 

Russia will have to get the message that they cannot go around and "rule" like a colonial power forever. We might have secretly (or not-so-secretly) looked upon Georgia's demise with some joy, but on the long run it cannot be good for Armenia. Balance always trumps monopoly. It would be wrong to assume that if Georgia capitulates and is broken off to pieces, the Russians will in fact look favourably to the idea of uniting those parts with neighbouring countries, i.e. Javakhk to Armenia, Marnelui and regions to Azerbaijan. Russia needs ethnic "injustices" to perpetuate to maintain all levers of control, at least for the time being.

 

Diversification of political interests can bring better and steady dividends, monopolization of political ties can bring huge successes but it can also turn the tables against you with terrible consequences.

 

 

.

Edited October 11, 2008 by Z'areh

[hyethga]

I think ALL options should be left open, and put on the table, If Russia really values the strategic partnership with Armenia, it should act like one, that should include pro-Armenian declarations for "external consumption". Today one considers messages uttered for so-called "external consumption" to also mean sending messages for internal analysis. Read Lavrov's words, they are directed exclusively to the Armenian leadership, not others.

 

You say, it is not a good policy to say "FU", but that is exactly what Lavrov is saying to us.

 

All I know is when you put your faith, exclusively, on one entity chances are you will be taken advantage of, you will be weakened. that is why NATO exercises are a good way of reminding Russia that Armenia can develop other "friendships". Initially Lavrov said that Russia was not bothered by that, I think they are bothered by it, and perhaps saying Armenia has not too many POLITICAL as well as geographic options is a way to send a message of discontent.

 

The Russian mentality of maintaining control over the so-called "near abroad" is dangerous and should be disproved and called as it is: bogus and reeking of Soviet colonialism.

 

Russia will have to get the message that they cannot go around and "rule" like a colonial power forever. We might have secretly (or not-so-secretly) looked upon Georgia's demise with some joy, but on the long run it cannot be good for Armenia. Balance always trumps monopoly. It would be wrong to assume that if Georgia capitulates and is broken off to pieces, the Russians will in fact look favourably to the idea of uniting those parts with neighbouring countries, i.e. Javakhk to Armenia, Marnelui and regions to Azerbaijan. Russia needs ethnic "injustices" to perpetuate to maintain all levers of control, at least for the time being.

 

Diversification of political interests can bring better and steady dividends, monopolization of political ties can bring huge successes but it can also turn the tables against you with terrible consequences.

 

Zareh,

 

There is no way the Soviet Union is going to be resuscitated and it's about time people, especially the parrots in the Western media, realize this. Communism left a bad taste in every corner of the USSR, Russia, Georgia, the Baltics, Armenia, etc. There is no way today's Russian Federation is going to revert back to what it was 20 years ago, or even what it was 90 years ago.

 

What is its chief ideology going to be once it finally occupies these countries so that it can keep the people under its control? God, country, Tsar? Socialism? Perhaps capitalism? Russian nationalism? It's unsustainable no matter how you slice it but people still buy this silly argument, which is made even worse when so-called experts echo them. It may want to ensure its influence but anything beyond this enters the realm of BS.

 

Russia is not going anywhere and we simply have to accommodate ourselves with this fact. It's been playing games like this for about 200 years now and we shouldn't be surprised by Lavrov's comments. In the event that our security is threatened, it's not going to be NATO and the West that is going to save us. Russia gets extra points by us but don't think that the politicians in Yerevan will ever wholly entrust our security and diplomacy on one power. They're smarter than you think.

 

[hyethga]

I'm just saying what I really wish happened to him and his entire family.

may his entire generation be cursed for this, may he get killed and eaten by a necrophile cannibal.

 

Calm down. This kind of mindset has never gotten far in the past.

[MyTerrain]

Calm down. This kind of mindset has never gotten far in the past.

 

Now there's nothing more important than the preservation of my land, and given this imbecilic cancerous infection called Mattew Bryza calls for my destruction and at the same time he's allowed to visit my country then the future looks bleak for us. May this vermin sleep and never wake up. Why isn't our brown nosing smarmy excrement government not protesting the fact that this piece of garbage has a diarrhea wife? That's cause for conflict of interest and nobody in our government gives a flying F.

 

[DominO123]

That's called hit on the party which is civilised..., that's why we always lost. Imagine if it was the other way around that that he said that Azerbaijan should be ready to make concessions and that the ultimate reality is that Artsakh has been independent since the beginning of the 90s. You will have their president and elites starting back the war rhetorics, making threats accusing the US, Russia etc... threatning to cut oil supplies etc.

 

On the other hand they can poop anything they want when it is directed against Armenia, because they know Armenia and Armenians will shut up. It was the same thing under Starist Russian System, under the Ottoman Empire and it is the same under the Soviet Union, and it is now the same. Armenians will eat sh!t, but hell forbit them if they reply, their answer will be magnified and pushed out of proportion. Everyone remember Khojali. When the agression is always toward one side, it is human behavior to equilibrate things and make it 50:50..., but since it is always us who are eating the sh!t, equilibrating things will always be to our disadvantages. Take Artsakh..., they will claim, we'll leave the borders as it was during the Soviet Union, but we will give maximum autonomy to Artsakh. But this 50:50 is obviously flawed because Artsakh should never have been attached to Azerbaijan SSR, had it not been of the Soviet kissing Ataturk @ss and Narimanov making threats on cutting oil supply if Azerbaijan SSR was not granted Artsakh.

 

Diplomacy isen't concrned with justice, it is concerned with balancing things, and this is why if you do not cheat, make threats or lie, you will always be the looser, the Turks and Turkics on our Eastern borders have learned this long ago, and this is the only thing they excel in, but in this case the only thing which really matters.

[hyethga]

Now there's nothing more important than the preservation of my land, and given this imbecilic cancerous infection called Mattew Bryza calls for my destruction and at the same time he's allowed to visit my country then the future looks bleak for us. May this vermin sleep and never wake up. Why isn't our brown nosing smarmy excrement government not protesting the fact that this piece of garbage has a diarrhea wife? That's cause for conflict of interest and nobody in our government gives a flying F.

 

Well don't think you're the only one out there who wants to see his country succeed.

 

Screaming and waving your hands around just makes you look foolish.

[Eurocentric]

Zareh,

 

There is no way the Soviet Union is going to be resuscitated and it's about time people, especially the parrots in the Western media, realize this. Communism left a bad taste in every corner of the USSR, Russia, Georgia, the Baltics, Armenia, etc. There is no way today's Russian Federation is going to revert back to what it was 20 years ago, or even what it was 90 years ago.

 

What is its chief ideology going to be once it finally occupies these countries so that it can keep the people under its control? God, country, Tsar? Socialism? Perhaps capitalism? Russian nationalism? It's unsustainable no matter how you slice it but people still buy this silly argument, which is made even worse when so-called experts echo them. It may want to ensure its influence but anything beyond this enters the realm of BS.

 

Russia is not going anywhere and we simply have to accommodate ourselves with this fact. It's been playing games like this for about 200 years now and we shouldn't be surprised by Lavrov's comments. In the event that our security is threatened, it's not going to be NATO and the West that is going to save us. Russia gets extra points by us but don't think that the politicians in Yerevan will ever wholly entrust our security and diplomacy on one power. They're smarter than you think.

 

Very very well put.

[Aratta-Kingdom]

ANCA slams MatJew Bryza for retreat from principle in U.S. policy toward NAGORNO NAGORNO KARABAKH Armenian Republic of ARTSAX Armenian Republic of ARTSAX

 

14.10.2008

 

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ The Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA) Chairman Ken Hachikian, in remarks delivered yesterday before more than 900 elected officials and community leaders at the annual Western Region banquet, publicly and forcefully challenged recent statements by senior State Department official Matt Bryza that, as a precondition for peace, Armenia must agree that Nagorno NAGORNO NAGORNO KARABAKH Armenian Republic of ARTSAX Armenian Republic of ARTSAX is part of Azerbaijan, ANCA Communications Director Elizabeth Chouldjian told PanARMENIAN.Net.

 

Speaking before a capacity crowd at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library, Hachikian sharply condemned the "retreat from principle" in U.S. policy toward the people and republic of Nagorno NAGORNO NAGORNO KARABAKH Armenian Republic of ARTSAX Armenian Republic of ARTSAX - who have strived, at the brutal cost of a generation of its best sons and daughters - to live up to the fundamentally American ideal that all people deserve to live free of foreign tyranny, under a government of their own choosing." He added that, "just this past week, we saw a senior State Department official, Matt Bryza, moving farther from even the pretense of supporting democracy, by saying that Armenia must accept the false proposition that Nagorno NAGORNO NAGORNO KARABAKH Armenian Republic of ARTSAX Armenian Republic of ARTSAX is part of Azerbaijan. He's absolutely wrong. And we all know it - and so does Baku and Ankara."

 

In an October 9th interview with the British Broadcasting Corporation Russian language service, Bryza, who serves as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and also the State Department's representative to the OSCE Minsk Group talks, stated that Armenia must agree that Nagorno NAGORNO NAGORNO KARABAKH Armenian Republic of ARTSAX Armenian Republic of ARTSAX is legally part of Azerbaijan.

 

His comments follow a series of statements, over the past several weeks, in which Bryza has demonstrated a pro-Azerbaijani bias by prioritizing the misapplication of the principle of territorial integrity to the Nagorno NAGORNO NAGORNO KARABAKH Armenian Republic of ARTSAX Armenian Republic of ARTSAX issue over the basic right of all peoples to self-determination.

 

[Z'areh]

Zareh,

 

There is no way the Soviet Union is going to be resuscitated and it's about time people, especially the parrots in the Western media, realize this. Communism left a bad taste in every corner of the USSR, Russia, Georgia, the Baltics, Armenia, etc. There is no way today's Russian Federation is going to revert back to what it was 20 years ago, or even what it was 90 years ago.

 

What is its chief ideology going to be once it finally occupies these countries so that it can keep the people under its control? God, country, Tsar? Socialism? Perhaps capitalism? Russian nationalism? It's unsustainable no matter how you slice it but people still buy this silly argument, which is made even worse when so-called experts echo them. It may want to ensure its influence but anything beyond this enters the realm of BS.

 

Russia is not going anywhere and we simply have to accommodate ourselves with this fact. It's been playing games like this for about 200 years now and we shouldn't be surprised by Lavrov's comments. In the event that our security is threatened, it's not going to be NATO and the West that is going to save us. Russia gets extra points by us but don't think that the politicians in Yerevan will ever wholly entrust our security and diplomacy on one power. They're smarter than you think.

 

 

No one is talking about "resuscitating" the Soviet Union, I don't think the Russians themselves are interested in bringing back the Soviet Union, they have a better option, an oil-rich Russia that can dominate the region. As you correctly mention that this "game" has been going on for 200 years. So let's agree that the creation of the "Soviet Union" be considered just a phase of such Russian "game". I don't think "communism" is an issue here, it never was!

 

I don't have any NATO wishes for Armenia, but at the same time I have a hard time believing that when the chips are down our "brothers" from the north are going to rush to our help, if they do, believe me it would come at a terrible cost. Thinking otherwise would be too naive.

 

Russians, just like any entity in this world, will step all over Armenia, if we give them a chance. Many Armenians erroneously think that the Russians are our friends, there is no such deep friendship (the type that comes with loyalty) between the Russian and Armenians, and worse, such "friendship" does not exist in world affairs, I don't care for how many centuries "threads of friendship" goes back, we are told.

 

 

.

[Aratta-Kingdom]

SINCERELY YOURS, MATTHEW BRYZA

Hakob Badalyan

 

Lragir.am

08:22:16 - 20/01/2009

 

Perhaps this visit is the last visit of the OSCE Minsk Group co-chair

Matthew Bryza to the region together with the Minsk Group. Although it

should not be ruled out that Barack Obama will not separate Bryza from

the settlement of the Karabakh conflict, and even if he is dismissed

from the post of the deputy assistant secretary, he will remain

co-chair of the OSCE Minsk Group. However, his stay is as probable as

his departure, therefore perhaps this is really Bryza's last visit to

the region in the capacity of the co-chair. At least his statements in

Baku are evidence that he has this feeling and in the end he wanted to

say something from the bottom of his heart to the societies of the two

countries. Bryza said that the publics must trust their presidents and

believe that they negotiate proceeding from their national interests.

 

One does not know whether Bryza is trying to catch the publics of

the presidents in a trap before his departure. And obviously it is

a trap. The point is that Bryza had stated several months before

when Aliyev and Sargsyan had just met for the first time that their

approach towards the basic issues are more harmonious than in the

time of Kocharyan and Aliyev.

 

Then there were mostly optimistic statements about agreement on the

basic issues. Now Bryza says that each of them negotiat es proceeding

from their national interests. This is the trap, it is only uncertain

whether it is for the presidents or the publics.

 

The point is that the national interests of Armenia and Azerbaijan

regarding the settlement of the Karabakh conflict contradict to one

another. They contradict at least with regard to the proposals on

the table of the talks and are called the proposal or principles of

Madrid. Although it has not been released officially, it is clear

from different statements by the co-chairs and conflict sides what

the proposal or principles of Madrid are.

 

It involves pullout of the Armenian force from the territories which

we refer to as liberated and Azerbaijan refers to as occupied, and

Azerbaijan must agree to hold a referendum on the status of Karabakh

at some time, the details of which are uncertain for the time being.

 

This option itself contradicts to the national interests of Armenia,

although there is no doubt that to Serge Sargsyan's thought there

is no controversy, and the territories could be exchanged with

status. However, even if the Armenian side gets a status for Karabakh

rather than agreement to a referendum on the status, in addition,

if this status is independence, the return of the territories already

contradicts to the national interests of Armenia and Karabakh because

it greatly weakens the Armenian factor in the region.

 

Consequently, the question occurs that if Aliyev and Serge Sargsyan

negotiate proceeding from the national interests, and Matthew Bryza

assures their publics that they really do and they should be trusted,

how can the co-chairs be optimistic regarding the principles? Hence,

either Bryza does not have a clear idea of the situation and the

nuances of the Karabakh issue for both Armenia and Azerbaijan or he

is consciously trying to trap either the presidents or the publics.

 

Of course, it is difficult to imagine that a serious country such

as the United States would have an official who would not imagine

the situation with all the nuances. Meanwhile, obviously at least in

the past few years the government trusted Bryza not only with regard

to the Karabakh issue but also other regional political and economic

issues. Consequently, it is more probable that Bryza is merely weaving

a web. One only needs to see who will get caught in it, the presidents

or the societies. Or maybe one of the presidents or societies.