DominO123 Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 There are some things that money can't buy..., you can keep your stinky durty oil and fry yourself with it. Artsakh has no price tag, live with it. ---------------- PIPELINE COULD BREAK NAGORNO-Artsax STALEMATE By Shahin Abbasov ISN 1 Oct 2008 Switzerland A potential Azerbaijani pipeline deal could help settle the frozen conflict over Nagorno-Artsax. Economics may hold the key to breaking the stalemate in the Nagorno-Artsax peace process. Turkish and Azerbaijani officials reportedly are seriously mulling the possibility of Armenian participation in the long-planned Nabucco pipeline project as part of a comprehensive Artsax peace pact. Turkey is leading efforts to energize the Artsax peace process. Turkish, Armenian and Azerbaijani officials met in New York on 26 September to discuss the Artsax issue and other security matters. That meeting kindled hopes that a settlement could be achieved by the end of 2008. Although details of the recent discussions have been scarce, some experts believe that the three sides have probed a possible bargain under which Armenia would become part of the Nabucco pipeline plans, in return for a greater degree of flexibility concerning Yerevan's position on Artsax. Yerevan's willingness to modify its long-standing demand for Artsax independence would appear to be the key as to whether this latest push for Artsax peace can be successful. Azerbaijani officials seem willing to work with Armenia on the Nabucco project, if Yerevan shows sufficient flexibility on Artsax. "Of course, Azerbaijan has set political conditionality related to the Artsax conflict on this [Nabucco] issue," Elhan Shahinoglu, the director of the Baku-based Atlas center for political research, told EurasiaNet. Turkish analyst Sinan Ogan, the chair of the Ankara-based TURKSAM think tank, said that the topic of Armenia's participation in the Nabucco project came up during US Vice President Dick Cheney's recent, controversial visit to Baku. "There are serious plans to involve Armenia in this project. Turkey and Azerbaijan were against this idea at first, but now Armenia's participation seems realistic," Ogan said in comments broadcast September 19 on Voice of America radio. Initial indicators are that the three sides did not make significant headway on the Artsax issue during the 26 September meeting in New York. On 28 September, Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan flatly admitted that "there are no concrete results yet," according to a report distributed by the RIA-Novosti news agency. Turkish President Abdullah Gul also revealed that there has not yet been any movement on the matter of Turkey ending its economic embargo against Armenia. The AzerTaj news agency reported Gul as telling a Turkish diaspora group on 28 September that "no talks over the border [re-]opening with Armenia are possible before Armenia's liberation of Azerbaijani occupied territories." While the notion of linking a potential Armenian role in Nabucco to the Artsax peace process has not been raised publicly, Gul came close to making a public admission on 10 September during a diplomatic trip to Baku. "No doubt that the fast liberation of the occupied [Azerbaijani] territories would be an important step and it would encourage very efficient economic cooperation in the region. Pipelines and transport communications would cover the entire Caucasus region," Gul said in Baku. Shahinoglu, the Baku political analyst, believes the peace process is now at a delicate stage. Any potential breakthrough will likely require the United States and Russia - two of the three co-chairs of the OSCE Minsk Group - to set aside their present differences and engage in diplomatic cooperation, Shahinoglu suggested. "Obviously, there is a completely new dynamic surrounding the evolution of talks on the Artsax conflict, creating unique opportunities for a breakthrough," Shahinoglu said. "However, this dynamic could [possibly] result in resumption of the war, if the great powers - first and foremost Russia and United States - continue to differ fundamentally on their approach to the future of South Caucasus region." Shahinoglu added that the Kremlin was not especially interested in seeing the Turkish initiative concerning Artsax succeed. He reasoned that the normalization of Armenian-Turkish relations and the settlement of the Artsax question, as well as Yerevan's potential involvement in Nabucco, would all do considerable harm to Russia's geopolitical interests in the Caucasus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 There are some things that money can't buy..., you can keep your stinky durty oil and fry yourself with it. Artsakh has no price tag, live with it. ---------------- PIPELINE COULD BREAK NAGORNO-Artsax STALEMATE Dear Domino, Like you I will stand in hell fire before accepting any compromises regarding the liberated Artsakh lands... Next Nakhijevan and Ararat... Armenians have waited close to 600 years to liberate a small section of Armenian fatherland from any turcic dominion! As the Turks say "toprak verelmaz, alener" lands are not given they're taken....so we took back what was ours to start with! Having said this, please brother Domino, allow me to venture into a delicate discussion regarding your outburst as above. For me, money can't and should'nt buy anything that emotionally psychologically will lead to the enslavment of a human being! However there are tooooo many of us that are hypnotized with material possessions, specially hoarding of monies, (these folks will never think they've had enough of it...lasting for several generations. If one day, they decide to count their money physically, a life time will not suffice to do so. Obviously I am refering to (multi-BILLIONAIRES) example; Rothchilds, Bill Gates, Buffet, Waltons of Wall/Mart, Reichmans of 15.6 Billion bankrupucy fame, they even managed to keep the Canary Wharfs of London, after inflicting on Canadians this huge freud/loss in the eighties...Abramovich, Berezovski, we even boast our own Kirk Kerkorian amongst these elites...is this a misnomer or what? Now if for creating a mutually agreeable situation where by it will seem a win/win proposal to all participants...Lest we forget our bosom body Russia,is not very hot for this proposal of Caucasian cooperative ventures independent of Russian control..., let us not throw the baby out with the bathwater ! Our President Sargsyan, appears to have the game in hand as much as the super powers will allow for our little country to play, like a kitty with a string attached to her neck! I do not profess to know all the dangerous pitfalls this co-operation might bring on the head of our fragile country...Artsakh is not getting populated as fast as we hoped! I am a rare specy that spends 4-6 months every year in shoushi... however Artsakh will not prosper with oldies like me...only youth and passion can retain this little precious land of the "Khamsa Melikutyants Orran" Tavit begov anvani... Before dissmissing out of hand any possible negociated peace with numerous and treacherous neighbours, Armenia should seek and have , an all coverage insurance from super powers for her security based on iron clad pacts...Da Astvats. Dear Domino, I do strongly beleive this is Armenia's century to achieve all of her genious potential... all she needs is a few decades of peace and she'll never look back! Garo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) Sorry about the digression, but ... However there are tooooo many of us that are hypnotized with material possessions True enough. , specially hoarding of monies, (these folks will never think they've had enough of it...lasting for several generations. That is actually more noble than trying to scrape enough to keep up with your acuaintances, and showing off with stupid status symbols. Obviously I am refering to (multi-BILLIONAIRES) example; Rothchilds, Bill Gates, Buffet, Waltons of Wall/Mart, Reichmans of 15.6 Billion bankrupucy fame, they even managed to keep the Canary Wharfs of London, after inflicting on Canadians this huge freud/loss in the eighties...Abramovich, Berezovski, we even boast our own Kirk Kerkorian amongst these elites...is this a misnomer or what? Why do you dislike success? These people did not make that much money to pleasure themselves. Pretty quickly "money" simply becomes a tool to accomplish nonmonetary goals. Often, it is a desire to make a difference, to matter. And that is one of the noblest things a sentient being can do. Bill Gates and Warren Buffett gave away virtually their entire wealth to charity foundations. And becoming rich is not a zero-sum game. The process that leads someone to become a multi-billionaire almost always involves improving the lives of many thousands or millions of people. You need to re-assess your world view very seriously. The future of Armenia depends on whether we collectively get this. Edited October 2, 2008 by Twilight Bark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted October 3, 2008 Report Share Posted October 3, 2008 Why do you dislike success? These people did not make that much money to pleasure themselves. Pretty quickly "money" simply becomes a tool to accomplish nonmonetary goals. Often, it is a desire to make a difference, to matter. And that is one of the noblest things a sentient being can do. Bill Gates and Warren Buffett gave away virtually their entire wealth to charity foundations. And becoming rich is not a zero-sum game. The process that leads someone to become a multi-billionaire almost always involves improving the lives of many thousands or millions of people. You need to re-assess your world view very seriously. The future of Armenia depends on whether we collectively get this. Dear "twilight Bark" Why have you assumed that I in any shape or form have said I dislike success? My intent is to show the greed of Billionaires... who will never know or want to know HOW MUCH MONEY IS ENOUGH? The greed of money hoarders are the nemesis of people, contrary to your point of view that lot's of money will help lots of people. As a matter of fact this is NOT SO, just looking at the rich kingdom of Saoudi Arabia or the Emirate of Kuait, even though they try paternalistically to look after their population, harbour poverty that should not exist according to your theory...I have been there and worked there to witness my statement. Getting back to the so called do gooder billionaires... why is that an Abrahamovich will splash millions to boast a football club Chelsea, that is loosing money since he aquired it as a toy, yet hardly looks after the workers back in Russia that are slaving for him with pittance as wages... Why does he own several yachts, one exeeding 100 meters, where probably he manages to spend a night or two every other month? I could continue on the exesses that these avaricious people will go to, to demonstrate money power to each other... little boys competing for toys to impress some females... As for my world view my dear friend, money is just a tool so long as you are not cought in it's machiavellian webs that will enslave you day and night in order to maintain it from erosion as well as secure it against theft. By the way, unearned income generates huge fortunes to some poeple who are happy sitting on their behinds all at the same time benefitting from the sweat and toil of others. They love to work with O.P.M. opium? rather "other peoples money". You and I will differ on the fundemental issue of WHAT ROLE SHOULD MONEY PLAY IN PEOPLES LIVES? Money is important since it's an effficient form of bartering... The problems start when the paper money without solid backing, devalues, thereby diminishig all peoples toil efforts for a fair return for hours worked... Funny the Billionaires do not have to worry for their daily bread... They have monopolized the toilers sweat and tears since the industrial revolution started by turning people into herds of automatons with aspirations of unreachable wealth just beyond the horizon! Poor sods do not have time to realize, (they are brainwashed and hurried) to see this smoke screen perpetrated upon them in order to keep them quiet. A lottery with that sir? you might be our next multi-millionaire?... can you hear the check out girl pushing this dream fix for the week? Money IS NOT EVERYTHING. Sirov Garo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted October 3, 2008 Report Share Posted October 3, 2008 Dear "twilight Bark" Why have you assumed that I in any shape or form have said I dislike success? My intent is to show the greed of Billionaires... who will never know or want to know HOW MUCH MONEY IS ENOUGH? The greed of money hoarders are the nemesis of people, contrary to your point of view that lot's of money will help lots of people. As a matter of fact this is NOT SO, just looking at the rich kingdom of Saoudi Arabia or the Emirate of Kuait, even though they try paternalistically to look after their population, harbour poverty that should not exist according to your theory...I have been there and worked there to witness my statement. Getting back to the so called do gooder billionaires... why is that an Abrahamovich will splash millions to boast a football club Chelsea, that is loosing money since he aquired it as a toy, yet hardly looks after the workers back in Russia that are slaving for him with pittance as wages... Why does he own several yachts, one exeeding 100 meters, where probably he manages to spend a night or two every other month? I could continue on the exesses that these avaricious people will go to, to demonstrate money power to each other... little boys competing for toys to impress some females... As for my world view my dear friend, money is just a tool so long as you are not cought in it's machiavellian webs that will enslave you day and night in order to maintain it from erosion as well as secure it against theft. By the way, unearned income generates huge fortunes to some poeple who are happy sitting on their behinds all at the same time benefitting from the sweat and toil of others. They love to work with O.P.M. opium? rather "other peoples money". You and I will differ on the fundemental issue of WHAT ROLE SHOULD MONEY PLAY IN PEOPLES LIVES? Money is important since it's an effficient form of bartering... The problems start when the paper money without solid backing, devalues, thereby diminishig all peoples toil efforts for a fair return for hours worked... Funny the Billionaires do not have to worry for their daily bread... They have monopolized the toilers sweat and tears since the industrial revolution started by turning people into herds of automatons with aspirations of unreachable wealth just beyond the horizon! Poor sods do not have time to realize, (they are brainwashed and hurried) to see this smoke screen perpetrated upon them in order to keep them quiet. A lottery with that sir? you might be our next multi-millionaire?... can you hear the check out girl pushing this dream fix for the week? Money IS NOT EVERYTHING. Sirov Garo This is hopelessly uninformed nonsense. The complaints above have nothing to do with billionaires. [strike 3] I withdraw from discussions with you for now, no insult intended. It's just that I don't have the patience or time. Sirov likewise, TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted October 3, 2008 Report Share Posted October 3, 2008 (edited) Warren Buffet has plans to give over 85% of his fortune to charity (that's donating about $37B as of a couple years ago) ... if that doesn't make him a philanthropist, I don't know what does. By the way, I would also LOVE to give 85% of my "fortune" away ... but I have a hard time finding a charity that likes taking loans. Edited October 3, 2008 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edward demian Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 Why are we negotiating hat in hand and on our knees? We hold the aces. Recent events proved to everyone that only in Armenia can the pipeline be safe. Also, how easily the pipeline can be disrupted. Armenia should go into the negociatios , demanding the greater Ngorno Karabagh/Artsack territory. As a sign of good will, the present terirorry, including the buffer regions will be sufficient for a peace treaty. We have the Iranians and the Georgians as passage routes. Soon we expect to have opened all the North / South railways between Russia Armenia and Iran. Armenia does not need to have cheap Turkish goods underselling Armenian goods. It does not need to be overrun with desperate muslim labor. We need to be the Switzerland of the Caucassus and not just another banana republic. We need to manufacture high priced goods, high dollar return merchandise such as the diamond cutting industry. Electronics, Banking, Mobile road building equipment, infrastructure building equipment. These plants would bring a high rate of returm per item. 200 machines @ $200,000 each is $ 40,000,000.00 That is nothing to sneaze at. There should be many manufacturing enterprizes such as this which would be able to pay good wages to its workers. And instead of opening our borders to cheap muslim labor, the Armenian government should offer jobs through diaspora churches enticing Armenians back to good wages and easely affordable housing. No matter how patriotic, people will leave their nest only for a better life for themselves and their families. We are not all selfeless idealists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 This is hopelessly uninformed nonsense. The complaints above have nothing to do with billionaires. [strike 3] I withdraw from discussions with you for now, no insult intended. It's just that I don't have the patience or time. Sirov likewise, TB Why would you descibe as complaints... the factual truths that I have ennumerated? Since I dislke baseball and the strikes you keep on piling arbitrarily, I wish also to stop reading your convoluted logic that dwells in "giberish...Your words" What can be said plainly is shunned by those who using a maze of turns end up confusing themselves. Great messengers were people of the fewest words possible... Quoting Socrates, "Dzanir zqez" encompasses all that is needed to understand his philosophy. Love thy neighbour... was another dictum that needs no other dissertation. Satyagraha, passive resistance, was offerred as recently as 1930s... Time to end this farce. Still sirogh, Garo P.S. Are you a Guruntsi descent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eurocentric Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Why are we negotiating hat in hand and on our knees? We hold the aces. Recent events proved to everyone that only in Armenia can the pipeline be safe. Also, how easily the pipeline can be disrupted. Armenia should go into the negociatios , demanding the greater Ngorno Karabagh/Artsack territory. As a sign of good will, the present terirorry, including the buffer regions will be sufficient for a peace treaty. We have the Iranians and the Georgians as passage routes. Soon we expect to have opened all the North / South railways between Russia Armenia and Iran. Armenia does not need to have cheap Turkish goods underselling Armenian goods. It does not need to be overrun with desperate muslim labor. We need to be the Switzerland of the Caucassus and not just another banana republic. We need to manufacture high priced goods, high dollar return merchandise such as the diamond cutting industry. Electronics, Banking, Mobile road building equipment, infrastructure building equipment. These plants would bring a high rate of returm per item. 200 machines @ $200,000 each is $ 40,000,000.00 That is nothing to sneaze at. There should be many manufacturing enterprizes such as this which would be able to pay good wages to its workers. And instead of opening our borders to cheap muslim labor, the Armenian government should offer jobs through diaspora churches enticing Armenians back to good wages and easely affordable housing. No matter how patriotic, people will leave their nest only for a better life for themselves and their families. We are not all selfeless idealists. Very well said. That's the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 Why are we negotiating hat in hand and on our knees? We hold the aces. Recent events proved to everyone that only in Armenia can the pipeline be safe. Also, how easily the pipeline can be disrupted. This is the greatest problem of our diplomacy, i.e. the abysmal, lousy, timid, loser becoming diplomacy of the politicians of the RoA. I wish there were more Armen Ayvazians among our analysts and I wish our statesmen would listen for a change to him or guys like Ara Papian and Samuel Karapetian. But no, it's the same loser mentality even after Armenians have rubbed the filthy muzzle of Azerbaboons against the ground. It's about asserting the importance of any given nation: the most worthless, harmful garbage residue ever to have leaked the trashcan of the universe, the vicious, atrocious, pernicious two-legged Inhuman Civilization-deficiency Virus going by the despicable four letter insult to humanity Turk, is all about trumpeting to the Zykes and Faggots how IMPORTANT they are for the survival or their “empires”, while as I always say, Turkey is like an old and horrendously ugly whore that somehow (with a little help from their Khazar kin who own the media) manages to sell her putrid, decomposing carcass at an exorbitant price. The fact is however that without the hundreds of billions of dollars of hard earned US taxpayers' money that's being shoved down the bottomless throat of the Sik Fuck of Europe, they'd start eating donkeys first and when that would become no more available, they'd gobble down their own whelps. Yet, no matter how many aces the Armenians hold, they'll still say “we are nothing”, “Armenia is worthless”, “we are dependant on our Russian uncle” that has screwed us over and over again in the last three centuries. I wish the Armenians could also start behaving with more confidence and impose their importance, but seeing all the totally unnecessary concessions Armenia has already done in the last month (think of the removing of Ararat from the shirts of the national football team, the dimming of the lights of Tzitzernakabert when the ishek Turk was in Armenia and -I hope I have heard wrong- the removal of Ararat from our emblem) I don't think this is going to happen. Armenia should go into the negociatios , demanding the greater Ngorno Karabagh/Artsack territory. As a sign of good will (what for? H.), the present terirorry, including the buffer regions will be sufficient for a peace treaty. No effing way! All that's south and west of the River Kur is historic Armenian territory. In ancient times Arax and Kur did not meet and the territory in between that reached the Caspian is also Armenian. We'll have to play hard with fake “Azerbaijan” and set our goals at taking back all Armenian land under “Azeri” occupation until we cut that fake nothingness from Iran and make the abuse of the name of the northwest Iranian province Azarbaijan (the real, Atrpatakan) unacceptable for the counterfeiters. At least we have to take back the rest of Artsakh until Gandzak and Nakhijevan. Any peace treaty that will eventually be signed with fake “Azerbaijan” should on no account contain the recognition of the borders of the fabricated state: I. There's not a single legal document in the world that deals with the delineation of the borders of fake “Azerbaijan”, thus, the whole noise about the territorial integrity of that bogus state is nothing but fiction. II. Since fake “Azerbaijan's” bid to join was rejected by the League of Nations in 1920 right before its Sovietization, it has never existed as a subject of international law (a sovereign state) before 1991 when Artsakh (with the present borders) had already emerged as an independent state making their claim over Artsakh totally baseless. III. In the case of signing a peace treaty with fake “Azerbaijan”, Armenia should take care not to allow any recognition of borders of that counterfeited nonentity, otherwise it will become a recognized state with recognized borders for the first time in its 90 year, miserable existence and we will lose any future chance of getting Nakhijevan, the rest of Artsakh up to the River Kur, Utik and Pytakaran provinces back. We'll see whether our statesmen will perpetuate our historically lousy diplomacy and make the same mistakes over and over again or they'll wise up for a change, behave like victors and become real diplomats that work for the interests of our nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 P.S. As you can see in the article and indeed any article concerning Armenia coming from the Turks and their Judeo-Saxon suckers revolves around TERRITORY. They want territory, period. They haven't given up the sick, delusional, mainly Jew invented pan-Turkist delirium which was the reason for the Armenian Genocide, the Artsakh war, the destruction of our heritage (both instances of the continuation of the AG), the non-flexible stance of the sore, genocidal “Azeri” losers, and indeed anything coming from Turks concerning Armenia and Armenians. They want Armenian territory bad. No matter what the government of the RoA does, there should never be any question of ceding a single nanometer of territory to the Turk. They already got 90% of our homeland; we should under no circumstances allow any heads of government of Armenia to even contemplate about ceding territory. Never, ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 P.S. As you can see in the article and indeed any article concerning Armenia coming from the Turks and their Judeo-Saxon suckers revolves around TERRITORY. They want territory, period. They haven't given up the sick, delusional, mainly Jew invented pan-Turkist delirium which was the reason for the Armenian Genocide, the Artsakh war, the destruction of our heritage (both instances of the continuation of the AG), the non-flexible stance of the sore, genocidal “Azeri” losers, and indeed anything coming from Turks concerning Armenia and Armenians. They want Armenian territory bad. No matter what the government of the RoA does, there should never be any question of ceding a single nanometer of territory to the Turk. They already got 90% of our homeland; we should under no circumstances allow any heads of government of Armenia to even contemplate about ceding territory. Never, ever! As another observer of the totally tangled Caucasus caper/Armenia /Turkish new "mohabbet"... including deadly big brothers eyeing our little homeland... I have this feeling that our President has as much if not more interest in NOT ceding even an iota of liberated lands... His role in the liberation of Artsakh is well documented...wonder of wonders, Mr. Sargsyan is not seeking glorification and personal agrandisement. Contrary to nay sayers, President Sargsyan was a revelation in the internatioal forum in New York...His approach to the liberation issues on a global scale showed that His goal is finding just and peaceful solutions... His defiance in NOT recognizing Abkhazia/S.Ossetia, before the recognition of Artsakh was a masterful move, even though big brother Russia was not very pleased! Hoverver we still hold a frienly relations with Russia despite the independence shown by President Sargsyan... Our ship is well captained so far, Da Astvats NO ICEBERGS ARE LURKING IN MUDDY WATERS... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK-47 Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 His defiance in NOT recognizing Abkhazia/S.Ossetia, before the recognition of Artsakh was a masterful move, even though big brother Russia was not very pleased! Hoverver we still hold a frienly relations with Russia despite the independence shown by President Sargsyan... Very masterful indeed. However, Russia doesn't mind our relations with Georgia according to FM Lavrov http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniarepor...3B205A98204.ASP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eurocentric Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 Very masterful indeed. However, Russia doesn't mind our relations with Georgia according to FM Lavrov http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniarepor...3B205A98204.ASP How can they? Our relations with Russia depend on our relations with Georgia. Until we have a common border with Russia this porblem is going to remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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