East of Byzantium

[phantom22]

Could you please provide a sample of the corroborating evidence that so thoroughly pinpointed the lineage?

 

http://rbedrosian.com/china.htm

 

[Ashot]

Phantom - I will not read beyond this point - "This article was published in Armenian Review Vol.34 No.1-133(1981) pp.17-24. "

 

Please find something modern, that will support the theory!!! What you need to get is something new, the lastest published books... then you will change your mind!!! in 1981, Armenia was part of USSR, most of the things published back then is not even close to be argumental!!!

 

Find something that has been published in the past 10 years!!!

[phantom22]

When I discovered an article dated 1937 that proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Sinan was an Armenian, no one here questioned the source. The Royal Asiatic Digest article was published in 1937. When I mentioned that Ataturk discussed the massacres of the Armenians and other Christians by the Young Turks in a 1926 interview with the LA Times, no one here questioned that.

 

So what if it was published in 1981. Are you implying that Robert Bedrosian, who is employed as a finance manager, yet holds a Ph.D in History from Columbia University, was influenced by Soviet mentality? I have studied Soviet policy in college. Bedrosian is an American scholar. Read his other works before you judge his credibility.

 

I guess if we Armenians come to terms with this Chinese issue, it will greatly undermine the belief that we are pure Aryans while the Turks are not. That would make the Armenian world-view collapse. Our differences are cultural and not necessarily racial. Armenians have been great warriors, but we have never been butchers. Turkish history is filled with butchery. Just ask the Chinese. Why do you think that the Great Wall of China was built? To keep the Turkish and Hun barbarians from butchering the Chinese.

 

 

Phantom - I will not read beyond this point - "This article was published in Armenian Review Vol.34 No.1-133(1981) pp.17-24. "

 

Please find something modern, that will support the theory!!! What you need to get is something new, the lastest published books... then you will change your mind!!! in 1981, Armenia was part of USSR, most of the things published back then is not even close to be argumental!!!

 

Find something that has been published in the past 10 years!!!

 

[phantom22]

Sorry, we Armenians have butchered our own compatriots. The Armenian Paulicians and Tondrakians were exiled to the south of France and Bulgaria or killed by our nobles.

[Ashot]

ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT FURKS ARE ARYANS??????????????????

 

Listen brother - if you look at the articles that you are saying that has been written in 1929 or 1936, you will notice that there is no other version to it... but history of Armenians has been revised under the soviet rule... so you best start reading new books, before you come in here and state that furks have been in the land they are in before us... Please brother, start reading...

[MosJan]

Ashot jan tsanotatsar pahntomi het ??

 

 

shat jamanak mi vatni d@ra v@ra, yan @ taratsa, mAst@ poxatsa, kanachi aratsatsa, bavakanin shat t@rchatsa - ch@Gitem inch hertakanutyamb - sakayn poqer jamanak g@lxi vra mi 40 angam q@tsatsa amen or

[phantom22]

Where have I stated that "Furks" (Turks) have been in our lands before us?

 

Where have I stated that Turks are Aryans?

 

Anatolian Turks are a mix of Central Asian Turks, Greeks, Armenians and Slavic Muslims.

 

Armenians are mainly Urarteans (Nairi) but have assimilated numerous other peoples unto their ranks including East Indians, Chinese, Jews, French, Germans, even Mongols.

 

Bedrosian did not use Soviet sources to reach his conclusions, so how does that impact the issue of Mamik and Konan and their thousands of followers who entered Taron province in 221 AD?

 

ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT FURKS ARE ARYANS??????????????????

 

Listen brother - if you look at the articles that you are saying that has been written in 1929 or 1936, you will notice that there is no other version to it... but history of Armenians has been revised under the soviet rule... so you best start reading new books, before you come in here and state that furks have been in the land they are in before us... Please brother, start reading...

 

[Arpa]

ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT FURKS ARE ARYANS??????????????????

 

Listen brother - if you look at the articles that you are saying that has been written in 1929 or 1936, you will notice that there is no other version to it... but history of Armenians has been revised under the soviet rule... so you best start reading new books, before you come in here and state that furks have been in the land they are in before us... Please brother, start reading...

And now, we’re gonna learn Armenian History from the likes of hagarag the hagapor who does not know his Ayb, as in arse, and Bedroians who seems to not know his Ben as bouche/բերան/beran/mouth v his buttocks.

Dear Ashot,

Please don’t get derailed from your mission.

Pleas don’t respond to Hagarag. We have known him for a long time under many screen names. He reappears every time he runs out of Prozac and Lithium.

Please. Just as Zartonk suggested above, let us limit this debate to its proper context.

Please! Let us leave this to real historians, not to the likes of hagarag, Bedrosian and Kupeli (ian)who seem not to know even the ABC s of the Armenian language, let alone Grabar. Whose knowledge of the Armenian language seesms to be limited to “tsapik tsapik Tsirani/Ծափիկ ծափիկ Ծիրանի”, those who don’t even know the difference between Ճ as in Ճենաց/Jenats and Չ as Չինաց/Chinats.

I am running out of patience. I have, long time ago!

Can we have some REAL HISTORIANS here rather than those who cannot even write their own names in AYB BEN GIM ԱԲ Գ:

That idiot “Bedrosian” should first learn Armeno-Latin transliteration that his surname is Petrosian , not Bedrosian., “պետրոս/peter/petros” in Greek means “stone”, just like that place in modern Jordan, PETRA, whose Armenian counterpart would be “Qar/ Քար/Ժայր/Stone.

I know of at least one case where someone with the Original surname of “tashjian-qarian” has amended americanized it to “stoneson”.

Why not! What is so bad about that? We have lived in America for over a hundred years , yet we still have furkish surnames. Why can’t we have surnames like “Bostonian/Glendelian” rather than Izmirli-ian, Istambulbokhian…blah, blah, blah… you fill in the blanks?

As far as his comment about that “¼ Japanes” , is he talking about her face/cheek above the shoulder or below the belt? Let me show you the faces of millions of Yemeni-s , and Yugoslavians who look more Armenian (?) than most Yerevanites.

Please observe. It is only semantics, before Takoush/Anahid** (good riddance!) attacks me, the “Y” as in Yemen /Yugoslavia and Yerevan. is a matter of alphabetical semantics.

**At times it seemed to me that Hagarag and Anahid/Takoush were restricted to the same “rubber room” and they shared the same narcissistic “mirror, mirror on the wall, who’s the fairest, the most handsome of them all”. Me? I am as “ugly” (NOT!!!) as Tork “Angegh”, and I am proud of it. Some people should get over the myth that most of us don’t look like Max Von Sydow, or that airhead Blondie? http://www.blondie.com/

http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/20845/The-...Story-Ever-Told

the Swede with blue eyes and yellow hair that played the role of Jesus (NOT!!!!) are ugly.

Is that what Jesus looked Like? Was He born in Stockholm or Reykjavik? Or, maybe in Novosibirsk.

BTW. Whatever happemed to Takoush? Did she run away with hagarag to share the same "mirror, mirror on the wall" in that rubber walled room?

Edited May 4, 2008 by Arpa

[phantom22]

Not only do I not take Prozac or Lithium, but take no drugs WHATSOEVER. God did nor place us on ths earth to fatten the coffers of the pharmaceutical companies.

 

I agree with you that Armenians should discard their Turkish surnames.

 

As for historical truth shutting people up does not lend to scholarly research.

 

 

 

And now, we’re gonna learn Armenian History from the likes of hagarag the hagapor who does not know his Ayb, as in arse, and Bedroians who seems to not know his Ben as bouche/բերան/beran/mouth v his buttocks.

Dear Ashot,

Please don’t get derailed from your mission.

Pleas don’t respond to Hagarag. We have known him for a long time under many screen names. He reappears every time he runs out of Prozac and Lithium.

Please. Just as Zartonk suggested above, let us limit this debate to its proper context.

Please! Let us leave this to real historians, not to the likes of hagarag, Bedrosian and Kupeli (ian)who seem not to know even the ABC s of the Armenian language, let alone Grabar. Whose knowledge of the Armenian language seesms to be limited to “tsapik tsapik Tsirani/Ծափիկ ծափիկ Ծիրանի”, those who don’t even know the difference between Ճ as in Ճենաց/Jenats and Չ as Չինաց/Chinats.

I am running out of patience. I have, long time ago!

Can we have some REAL HISTORIANS here rather than those who cannot even write their own names in AYB BEN GIM ԱԲ Գ:

That idiot “Bedrosian” should first learn Armeno-Latin transliteration that his surname is Petrosian , not Bedrosian., “պետրոս/peter/petros” in Greek means “stone”, just like that place in modern Jordan, PETRA, whose Armenian counterpart would be “Qar/ Քար/Ժայր/Stone.

I know of at least one case where someone with the Original surname of “tashjian-qarian” has amended americanized it to “stoneson”.

Why not! What is so bad about that? We have lived in America for over a hundred years , yet we still have furkish surnames. Why can’t we have surnames like “Bostonian/Glendelian” rather than Izmirli-ian, Istambulbokhian…blah, blah, blah… you fill in the blanks?

As far as his comment about that “¼ Japanes” , is he talking about her face/cheek above the shoulder or below the belt? Let me show you the faces of millions of Yemeni-s , and Yugoslavians who look more Armenian (?) than most Yerevanites.

Please observe. It is only semantics, before Takoush/Anahid** (good riddance!) attacks me, the “Y” as in Yemen /Yugoslavia and Yerevan. is a matter of alphabetical semantics.

**At times it seemed to me that Hagarag and Anahid/Takoush were restricted to the same “rubber room” and they shared the same narcissistic “mirror, mirror on the wall, who’s the fairest, the most handsome of them all”. Me? I am as “ugly” (NOT!!!) as Tork “Angegh”, and I am proud of it. Some people should get over the myth that most of us don’t look like Max Von Sydow, or that airhead Blondie? http://www.blondie.com/

http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/20845/The-...Story-Ever-Told

the Swede with blue eyes and yellow hair that played the role of Jesus (NOT!!!!) are ugly.

Is that what Jesus looked Like? Was He born in Stockholm or Reykjavik? Or, maybe in Novosibirsk.

BTW. Whatever happemed to Takoush? Did she run away with hagarag to share the same "mirror, mirror on the wall" in that rubber walled room?

 

[phantom22]

There are 8 million Armenian worldwide.

 

There are 1.3 billion Chinese in China alone, not counting Taiwan and the worldwide Chinese diaspora.

 

Given that ancient Armenian historians clearly documented the Mamikonian origins, do you think that Kupelian is going to risk losing that huge market to satisfy the ennui of Armenian nationalists who are so uncomfortable with what may be the truth?

 

Tigranik - I have an upcoming meeting with Kupelian, pretty soon - then I will come back and post the continuation, apparently there is no script yet - the script is yet to be written, but the ideas he already have!!! There have been couple of ideas that are very arguable, and after the meeting I will let everyone know what's the next step!!!

 

[Ashot]

So now it is a market we are talking bout not the truth???

[Eurocentric]

Mamikonian origins really don't matter since they considered themselves Armenian. But whatever they were they were certainly not of Han Chinese origin. If we believe that they were from the East, than they were in all likelihood either of Iranic origins, most likely Sogdians or of Tocharian origin. The other popular theory is that they were from a Kartvelian tribe called Tzans/Chenq.

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Mamikonian origins really don't matter since they considered themselves Armenian. But whatever they were they were certainly not of Han Chinese origin. If we believe that they were from the East, than they were in all likelihood either of Iranic origins, most likely Sogdians or of Tocharian origin. The other popular theory is that they were from a Kartvelian tribe called Tzans/Chenq.

 

where is your prove that Mameikonaysn are not Armenian?

Edited May 5, 2008 by Aratta-Kingdom

[Aratta-Kingdom]

There are 8 million Armenian worldwide.

 

There are 1.3 billion Chinese in China alone, not counting Taiwan and the worldwide Chinese diaspora.

 

Given that ancient Armenian historians clearly documented the Mamikonian origins, do you think that Kupelian is going to risk losing that huge market to satisfy the ennui of Armenian nationalists who are so uncomfortable with what may be the truth?

 

 

Which historian are you talking about? Name at least one.

[Arpa]

I will never understand us.

The way we go I will be the only Armenian left.

Do you ever hear the baboons to the right and the hyenas to the left say anyhthing about themselves being from here or from there? And then we turn around and say there is no such thing as asseris and furks. Why is it that ever since Khorenatsi days we these are from China, those are from Iran, others are from hryastan, yet some others are Frankish, who's that came from th north, others came from the south, from th est and west, and then we turn around and try tell the world that we are a nation buth our neighbors are not. What's the matter with us? Why do we always try to justify our existence by invoking other nationalities ? Can't we just be what we are? What is the purpose of saying we are from here or there, that we are oHan dynasty, Iran dynasty, so on and so on.

This is getting beyond ridiculous. When reading about Vagharshapat I just read somewhere someone say that the city was founded by Tigran and inhabited by the hryas he brought back. Don't they say that about Tigranakert, Dwin, Artashat, and all the other capitaL cities we have had? How many hryas did Tigran bring? You mean there were no Armenians at the time that we had to import people from China, Zimbabwe, Kamchatka and Timbuktu?

At some point, for a long time there were more Armenians in Jerusalem than there were hryas. Do you ever hear them say that?

I will never understand this disease of "we are from here, we are from there"!

Has everybody roomed with hagarag's at that big house?

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A LIFE?

Edited May 5, 2008 by Arpa

[Eurocentric]

where is your prove that Mameikonaysn are not Armenian?

 

You meant proof right? I never said they're not I said they were Armenian. Anyone who self identified as an Armenian was Armenian. Imposing modern concepts of race and nation to a clan in the 5th century is not going to work.

[phantom22]

The social universe is changing a drastic rate. Gloabalization is upon us. How are we going to deal with it as a people and as a nation? That is the key question.

 

 

I will never understand us.

The way we go I will be the only Armenian left.

Do you ever hear the baboons to the right and the hyenas to the left say anyhthing about themselves being from here or from there? And then we turn around and say there is no such thing as asseris and furks. Why is it that ever since Khorenatsi days we these are from China, those are from Iran, others are from hryastan, yet some others are Frankish, who's that came from th north, others came from the south, from th est and west, and then we turn around and try tell the world that we are a nation buth our neighbors are not. What's the matter with us? Why do we always try to justify our existence by invoking other nationalities ? Can't we just be what we are? What is the purpose of saying we are from here or there, that we are oHan dynasty, Iran dynasty, so on and so on.

This is getting beyond ridiculous. When reading about Vagharshapat I just read somewhere someone say that the city was founded by Tigran and inhabited by the hryas he brought back. Don't they say that about Tigranakert, Dwin, Artashat, and all the other capitaL cities we have had? How many hryas did Tigran bring? You mean there were no Armenians at the time that we had to import people from China, Zimbabwe, Kamchatka and Timbuktu?

At some point, for a long time there were more Armenians in Jerusalem than there were hryas. Do you ever hear them say that?

I will never understand this disease of "we are from here, we are from there"!

Has everybody roomed with hagarag's at that big house?

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A LIFE?

 

[Zartonk]

http://rbedrosian.com/china.htm

 

Given that ancient Armenian historians clearly documented the Mamikonian origins,

 

 

Besides treating the geographic mentions of China in Armenian historic texts, the above cited article merely reinstates the existence of such an theory as the Chinese Mamikonian genesis "...[based on 'the documentation' of] two 5-6th century compilations, the so-called Primary History of Armenia, and the History of P'awstos Buzand" and does not provide any additional, independent scientific, archaeological or genetic evidence to support the theory. In fact, it is not even the aim of Mr. Bedrosian's article to back up this claim.

 

Once again, Keeping in mind the lengths which royal houses are known to cover in order to portray exotic, superior-than-average origins for their respective bloodlines, the chances of this (as of yet) visibly unsupported theory are continuing to wan.

 

 

 

[Zartonk]

Mamikonian origins really don't matter since they considered themselves Armenian. But whatever they were they were certainly not of Han Chinese origin. If we believe that they were from the East, than they were in all likelihood either of Iranic origins, most likely Sogdians or of Tocharian origin. The other popular theory is that they were from a Kartvelian tribe called Tzans/Chenq.

 

From Bedrosian:

 

"Armenists have interpreted the information found in the Primary History and in P'aswtos in a variety of ways. For example, Nicholas Adontz in 1908 speculated that when the early sources spoke of "the Chenk"' they referred not to the Chinese, but to the Tzans, a warlike people of the Caucasus who lived near the Mamikoneans' hereditary lands in northwestern Armenia. He derived the name Mamikonean from Georgian mama (meaning "father") plus the Armenian deminuitive ending ik (15). Adontz was challenged by Michael Toumanean who, in an article published in 1911, sought to identify Armenian Chenk' with the house of Cheng which ruled south of Lo Yang in the 5-4th centuries B.C."

 

I am curious as to what Toumanean's conclusion rests on.

[Zartonk]

Imposing modern concepts of race and nation to a clan in the 5th century is not going to work.

 

A very valid point.

[Aratta-Kingdom]

I never said they're not I said they were Armenian. Anyone who self identified as an Armenian was Armenian.

 

What does self identifying got to do with the fact that the Mamikonyans were Armenian by origin? Do you at least know Vardan's grandfather was?

 

 

 

 

 

Imposing modern concepts of race and nation to a clan in the 5th century is not going to work.

 

To a clan? That could have been the case with the Akkadian or the Babelonian ruling class. What does it have to do with the Armenians? Why did you have to mention that while talking about the Mamikonyans?

[Tigranik]

Hey Guys, I don't know about this whole thing of Vartan been Chinese or what, but I found some info when I signed up for their newsletter

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3152/246903...d1f982c58_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/246903...6e4b73f37_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3123/246985...b49da91d3_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2166/246985...747ceb334_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2394/246903...68239dd9d_b.jpg

 

I have a question for Ashot, what is your involvement with East of Byzantium, are you a director to? or what do you contribute to the project?

 

Best Regards

 

T

Edited May 6, 2008 by Tigranik

[Ashot]

script - if agreed to, and the right history... if agreed with Mr. Kupelian, other then that, if everything works out to be the right way - I am willing to work my ass of to get him contributions, charities and more to help with the project as much as possible, or shall I say as much as I can!!!

[Romina]

What the hell is wrong with all of you? ....

 

You guys are just talking out of your asses.

 

And its embarrassing because we are all Armenian here, and we should be open to ask questions and not assume the most stupid sh*t that your little mind comes up with...

 

My parents actually went to one of the East of Byzantium fundraisers and not once did the director Roger Kupelian (who I might add, he is a great patriot, were you guys in Karabagh during the conflict, or your parents? well he did and he made a really touching story call Dark Forrest in the Mountains)

Anyway he never said anything about Armenians being from chinese decent.....

 

So i don't think he would direct an epic film with the wrong information.

 

Come on why the hell do you think a guy like that will waste his time giving mix messages to an non Armenian audience?

Also what the hell is wrong with the Chinese anyway? why are we being so racist?

Why some people are so touchy? are you that insecure about our own culture?

Edited May 6, 2008 by Romina

[Ashot]

Romina - jan, seems like you just came down from the sky, first of all - welcome to the forum... second of all realx alittle before you get in the middle of the wrath... yes I AM AGAINST ALL THOSE WHO MIX CHINESE IN OUR CULTURE... AND I WILL GO ALL THE WAY, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE.

 

Here is flash back for you - before Chinese stole the calendar it was Armenian, before there was the plan for pyramids, Armenians had it for several hunder of years... so listen up lady, before you get into a discussion and say who cares if we are a chinese descendant or not, you best read your history. Second of all, lady, if your parents have gone to those meetings have they asked the direct questions???????????? have you asked the question yourself?????? I haven't but someone I know and trust has... there is one big reason why our historians don't want to work with him, it's because of the issues of the history... Sure it's a great movie to come out, sure it's a very good idea, but we are not CHINESE, unless you are...

 

And at the end I will add this to the list - BEFORE SOMEONE WANTS TO CONTRIBUTE TO SOMETHING THEY NEED TO SEE SCRIPTS - HAVE YOU SEEN ONE? OR HAS ANYONE YOU KNOW SEEN ONE? no one has, therefore, his ideas need to be on paper - once it's on paper then you can come in here and say what he presented to you. His whole idea is based on the books and materials mentioned in the previous pages, which are WRONG. There has been many details changed and revised to the truth. The material listed in previous posts are outdated and have many questions unanswered.

 

thank you for your post, and try to stay away from insulting and offensive conversations.