Forgiveness

[Stormig]

Forgiveness

March 12, 2007

Dear X,

 

There was a vivid image reported when the gunman went into the Amish school and killed the little girls. A grandfather of one of the slain girls stood over her lifeless body in the bloody classroom and lectured the young men there on forgiveness and not thinking ill of the killer. Many of the Amish reached out to the family of the killer in their time of need and offered their forgiveness on the very day of the attacks.

Meanwhile, a columnist in our local newspaper recently wrote a story about how he cannot forgive the state of Virginia for the slavery that occurred here before 1865 – almost 150 years ago.

 

Why is it that some people can forgive nearly instantly for the most personal transgressions such as someone killing your child and others cannot forgive things that didn’t even happen to them or anyone they know almost 150 year prior? The answer, it would seem, is in our understanding of forgiveness.

 

The first major misunderstanding of forgiveness is the confusion between giving forgiveness and earning forgiveness. There are some that believe that in order to forgive someone, they must earn it by expressing penitence (being sorry), apologizing and repenting. If this were true, we would forgive very few people. Let’s face it, all too often, when someone does something to you or your loved ones, they are anything but sorry that they did it. They justify themselves at best and are plainly happy about it at worst. Forgiveness is like grace; it is not earned. It is freely given without any expectation. Take the Amish incident as an example. If the Amish waited for the killer, who committed suicide to repent, they would still be waiting, wouldn’t they?

 

Another misconception about forgiveness is the idea that the primary benefit goes to the forgiven. This may be partially true, but the truth is that the main benefit accrues to the person doing the forgiving. First, the person who forgives does not have this cancer of the soul of being unforgiving. When we do not forgive, it makes us bitter, angry and resentful. We suffer. There are times when the offender doesn’t even know we are upset with them. Yet, we carry around this burden which eats us up inside as if when we finally do give the offender our forgiveness, they are the ones who will be unburdened. Second, we will be forgiven as we forgive. If we are the type who is very stingy with our forgiveness, we are setting up a scenario for ourselves at Judgment that will be far less than ideal. It would be preferred if we showed up at the Judgment being more like the Amish than the columnist.

 

Finally, the last common misconception about forgiveness is that forgiving means apathy, signaling approval of the deed or not following through with correction. Nothing could be further from the truth. To forgive is to put away all malice, hatred, ill-will, desire for retribution and personal vindication. Forgiveness is NOT necessarily letting someone get away with something, go without consequences, avoid ecclesial discipline or simply allowing this type of behavior to go on. We can and should forgive instantly. From this basis of love (rather than anger), we can act justly. Thinking Godly thoughts in love, we can decide what exactly should be done, if anything, according to the Scriptures. Anger and bitterness are only blockers to doing the right thing, not agents for righteousness. Until we truly forgive, we are not in a position to act. To act without forgiving assures us that our decisions will not be correct if only from the fact that our motives will not be pure. Forgiveness must precede correction.

 

It is sad that among God’s believing children there are those who, despite the clear counsel of Scripture, continue to carry around the cancer of being unforgiving. It makes this life much harder and harsher putting a tarnish on all we say, do and think. It also makes the prospect of Judgment very bleak.

 

Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. (Matt. 18:32-35)

 

Have a great week,

 

 

Kyle Tucker

[ED]

Forgiveness? Is this a joke or a mockery you posted?

you almost convinced yourself or had a wishful thinking for a minute Turks can go on destroy our churches, burn homes, rape our women and after all that decide they want to wipe us from the face of the earth (by the way this is still is a pan-Turkish dream) and finally another nail as you go down!!, de-facto recognize ROA but keep the border closed, employ foreign against to fight against resolutions in US (with US taxpayer money) but railway baku-akerkalak-cheyean, aid Azeri’s with military support..............this is endless, I'll stop

 

Yes father, we Armenians forgive Turks there sins and may Turks forgive us for not forgiving them earlier

Bunch of rubbish

 

 

[Anoushik]

Stormig, what you have posted is a bunch of BS. I bet Kyle Tucker must lead a very easy, carefree life. I won't even go through most of what he's written, but to make my point, let me look at the excerpt below.

 

but the truth is that the main benefit accrues to the person doing the forgiving. First, the person who forgives does not have this cancer of the soul of being unforgiving. When we do not forgive, it makes us bitter, angry and resentful. We suffer.

This is a statement of someone who doesn't have an ounce of humanity in him. A humane person suffers, not only for his personal tragedies, but for the others' as well. How much easier this world would be, and how much of a hell this world would be if all had views like this guy. Sure, heck, I don't want to suffer, so I might as well close my eyes to the world's injustices. Who cares, right? As long as I have my own cozy bed and my food and water, do I care if my neighbors are cold, hungry, being tortured, being raped, being killed? Unfortunately, most of the world's population has this kind of thinking! The world has improved and become civilized because of the very small few who actually do care about others than themselves. It has improved because those few have not only not forgotten the injustices to someone else, but have also not forgiven the injustices done to someone else and have fought to bring justice into this world. I find it really sad that people read posts like the above letter and circulate it on the internet and believe it to be the truth while writings and posts that raises the general morale of the humanity is very scarce.

[Aubépine]

Hardly the reaction of a sane person in my opinion and whose mental faculties are anything but intact. This story is so pathetic it seems concocted as if the victims are made to feel as the guilty part. What next? Begging forgiveness from murderers for having hurt their feelings?

 

We can and should forgive instantly. From this basis of love (rather than anger), we can act justly. Thinking Godly thoughts in love, we can decide what exactly should be done, if anything, according to the Scriptures.

Please save the all-so benevolent religious forgiveness crap. You can perhaps fool those who want to live in a fairy-tale world of makebelief.

 

When we finally do give the offender our forgiveness, they are the ones who will be unburdened.

This brought tears to my eyes. Does anyone believe that for a moment?

 

Forgiveness is a two-way street and totally meaningless if the other party has not an ounce of remorse and is not willing to pay the price.

 

I would love to see (and I don't only mean the author of this article) go through the same thing and then let us see if the pontification will continue.

[Stormig]

Forgiveness? Is this a joke or a mockery you posted?

you almost convinced yourself or had a wishful thinking for a minute Turks can go on destroy our churches, burn homes, rape our women and after all that decide they want to wipe us from the face of the earth (by the way this is still is a pan-Turkish dream) and finally another nail as you go down!!, de-facto recognize ROA but keep the border closed, employ foreign against to fight against resolutions in US (with US taxpayer money) but railway baku-akerkalak-cheyean, aid Azeri’s with military support..............this is endless, I'll stop

 

Yes father, we Armenians forgive Turks there sins and may Turks forgive us for not forgiving them earlier

Bunch of rubbish

Relax. You're projecting. I had my coffee incident on my mind. (By the way we took class action and the situation has improved. )

Just because I posted it doesn't mean I actually endorse it, at least not fully. What I do relate to, however, is that part where he mentions that while we seethe the other end does not even have a clue as to the feelings harboured. It is so true - except until you take corrective action, of course. I don't partake to the idea of turning of the other cheek and similar frap.

And I advise that you don't go too far in assuming about my wishful thinking or convictions. Both are irrational notions.

Edited September 14, 2007 by Stormig

[Stormig]

Stormig, what you have posted is a bunch of BS. I bet Kyle Tucker must lead a very easy, carefree life. I won't even go through most of what he's written, but to make my point, let me look at the excerpt below.

This is a statement of someone who doesn't have an ounce of humanity in him. A humane person suffers, not only for his personal tragedies, but for the others' as well. How much easier this world would be, and how much of a hell this world would be if all had views like this guy. Sure, heck, I don't want to suffer, so I might as well close my eyes to the world's injustices. Who cares, right? As long as I have my own cozy bed and my food and water, do I care if my neighbors are cold, hungry, being tortured, being raped, being killed? Unfortunately, most of the world's population has this kind of thinking! The world has improved and become civilized because of the very small few who actually do care about others than themselves. It has improved because those few have not only not forgotten the injustices to someone else, but have also not forgiven the injustices done to someone else and have fought to bring justice into this world. I find it really sad that people read posts like the above letter and circulate it on the internet and believe it to be the truth while writings and posts that raises the general morale of the humanity is very scarce.

Um, I don't think he was actually promoting apathy. Maybe you should read it again? This man is active in a Christian denomination, FYI.

 

No Buddhists around to comment on the piece?

[Stormig]

Regardless of the person's beliefs, I also feel the need to commend him for being from a group somewhat exclusive and yet praising the Amish in line with his beliefs. Most do not bother. Below is the story. I find it really interesting that someone can be in that frame of mind. It's not exactly inspiring but still food for thought in these days when many of us short of lose it for comparably lesser slights and annoyances. Maybe it's time to abandon technology and move back.

 

Amish grandfather: 'We must not think evil of this man'

POSTED: 2:30 a.m. EDT, October 5, 2006

Story Highlights• Amish community speaks of forgiveness for schoolhouse gunman

• Funerals for five slain girls to be held Thursday and Friday

• Five more shooting victims remain in hospitals in critical or serious condition

• Police: Shooter said he molested children in the past, dreamed of doing it again

Adjust font size:

PARADISE, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- A grieving grandfather told young relatives not to hate the gunman who killed five girls in an Amish schoolhouse massacre, a pastor said on Wednesday.

 

"As we were standing next to the body of this 13-year-old girl, the grandfather was tutoring the young boys, he was making a point, just saying to the family, 'We must not think evil of this man,' " the Rev. Robert Schenck told CNN.

 

"It was one of the most touching things I have seen in 25 years of Christian ministry."

 

The girl was one of 10 shot by Charles Carl Roberts IV after he invaded their one-room schoolhouse in rural Pennsylvania on Monday. (Watch how the Amish have already forgiven the killer -- 2:46)

 

Three died at the scene and two died early Tuesday at hospitals. (Watch how Amish practices affected treating, identifying the victims -- 4:16 )

 

Funerals for four of the victims are scheduled for Thursday, and the fifth will be Friday.

 

Five girls remained hospitalized on Wednesday. A 13-year-old and a 12-year-old were listed in serious condition, and three other girls, ages 6, 8 and 10, are in critical condition, according to hospital officials.

 

At the families' request, the hospital did not provide details on the extent of the girls' injuries.

 

Schenck met with the families of two of the victims as well as the family of the gunman.

 

Relatives of Roberts had no hint that he would commit such violent acts, the pastor said.

 

Others who knew him described him as troubled.

 

"One person who had had almost daily encounters with him said that she noted that he never looked into anyone's eyes, he never looked into anyone's faces, and she knew that there was something deeply troubling about him," Schenck said.

 

"Although she did say, she was very careful to say, that Charles Roberts was not an evil person. That he was a deeply troubled man, that he had, in her words -- the sort of modest words of the Amish -- that he had problems of the heart."

 

On Tuesday, police said Roberts told his wife he molested young relatives 20 years ago and was dreaming about molesting children again. (Full story)

 

But police said Wednesday that they located two relatives Roberts allegedly molested when they were between ages 3 and 5, and both "are confident they were never assaulted by Roberts," said Pennsylvania State Police Trooper Linette Quinn.

 

"If there was a question of the fact that they could not remember because they were at a young age, I'm sure the investigation would look further, but I believe they are confident with the information they received," Quinn said.

 

Pennsylvania State Police Commissioner Jeffrey Miller said Roberts may have targeted the school for its girl students and -- given various items found in the school -- intended to molest the children. (Watch police describe the molestation confession -- 1:34 )

 

Jack Meyer, a member of the Brethren community living near the Amish in Lancaster County, said local people were trying to follow Jesus' teachings in dealing with the "terrible hurt."

 

"I don't think there's anybody here that wants to do anything but forgive and not only reach out to those who have suffered a loss in that way but to reach out to the family of the man who committed these acts," he told CNN.

 

Sam Stoltzfus, 63, an Amish woodworker who lives a few miles away from the shooting scene, told The Associated Press that the victims' families will be sustained by their faith.

 

"We think it was God's plan, and we're going to have to pick up the pieces and keep going," he told AP. "A funeral to us is a much more important thing than the day of birth because we believe in the hereafter. The children are better off than their survivors."

 

When members of the community die, they are buried in wooden coffins; women in all white and men in all black, according to AP. (Watch how the Amish maintain their simple lifestyle -- 2:40)

 

Bodies are embalmed, but undertakers do not apply makeup. Funerals are held in the victim's home, and the dead are delivered to the cemetery in a horse-drawn carriage. A hymn is read, but there is no singing, AP reported.

 

Copyright 2006 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/04/amish.shooting/

[ED]

And I advise that you don't go too far in assuming about my wishful thinking or convictions. Both are irrational notions.

 

 

So let me understand this correctly, you've posted a post about forgiveness and that entire BS, without making a single comment, now you get touchy about your "forgiveness"?

History has thought man kind the fact that irrational can very well be rational, it all depends who you apply the term to, can you say, in its history the ottomans, the Turks have acted irrational or they couldn’t differentiate one from the other.

And; I will advice you not to give advice when none is asked, missy!

 

[Stormig]

So let me understand this correctly, you've posted a post about forgiveness and that entire BS, without making a single comment, now you get touchy about your "forgiveness"?

Yes, I made a post - and I'm allowed to, am I not? And it was a piece of commentary about a real-life event. The only valid point here is that some people do exercise a different approach to things in line with what they preach. It is not that I preach forgiveness or what-not per se - but the whole approach put into practice is beyond anything I had imagined. You always hear about it, the talk is talked, but the walk walked? I don't find it deranged or something - it is just what it is. Deranged is killing everyone around you in a rage or something of the sort, and moreover it is not shared by a community unless they do group drugs. I had a moment of reflection, is all. I'm not quite sure about the advantages of this approach, but I do find it fascinating in today's world. And I am not being touchy here - where did you get that from? Methinks you are projecting again.

 

History has thought man kind the fact that irrational can very well be rational, it all depends who you apply the term to, can you say, in its history the ottomans, the Turks have acted irrational or they couldn’t differentiate one from the other.

I'll start working for NASA by the time I figure out what you're getting at here.

 

And; I will advice you not to give advice when none is asked, missy!

OK, so I'll wrap it up with a suggestion instead - practice what you preach.

[Anonymouse]

"Oh hi kettle, I'm pot."

 

"Hi pot, I am kettle."

 

"Are you black, kettle?"

 

"I don't know, I guess if you say so."

 

"Sure thing."

Edited September 19, 2007 by Anonymouse

[vava]

I'm going to close this thread now, for obvious reasons.

 

 

 

 

EDIT - some clean up done. The thread is open again and will remain open unless the immaturity continues.

Edited September 20, 2007 by vava

[aSoldier]

Hardly the reaction of a sane person in my opinion and whose mental faculties are anything but intact. This story is so pathetic it seems concocted as if the victims are made to feel as the guilty part. What next? Begging forgiveness from murderers for having hurt their feelings?

Please save the all-so benevolent religious forgiveness crap. You can perhaps fool those who want to live in a fairy-tale world of makebelief.

This brought tears to my eyes. Does anyone believe that for a moment?

 

Forgiveness is a two-way street and totally meaningless if the other party has not an ounce of remorse and is not willing to pay the price.

 

I would love to see (and I don't only mean the author of this article) go through the same thing and then let us see if the pontification will continue.

 

i've seen a lot of BS on this forum..but your post has to take the cake..

[Yervant1]

i've seen a lot of BS on this forum..but your post has to take the cake..

To some members this post might look like a lot of hot air, especially coming from a preacher who does not do as he says.

[Arpa]

We are Armenian Christians, or so say many.

Has anyone heard of "remorse/զղջում", "contrition" or "confession/խոստովանանք" ?, alll prerequisites of "forgivness/ներում"?

Is not "forgiveness" a response to "confession"?

AS LONG AS THE MURDERER DENIES, WE WILL NOT FORGIVE!!!

Edited October 6, 2007 by Arpa

[gamavor]

Forgiveness is always both universal and strictly individual in the Christian Orthodox ethos. There is no forgiveness for the sake of forgiveness. It is always conscious act and deeply emotional. It is like throwing something behind your back and never revisit it again no matter the circumstances. That said forgiveness requires remorse. It is the response of the loving Christian spirit towards ones admission of wrongdoing. Forgiveness is not limited to expression of remorse by someone with whom you are in communion with, but to anyone who enters into this deep emotional condition with regret, even your enemies.

 

However, forgiveness is not granted automatically, because you in your thoughts are only the jury, while the last word belongs to the Almighty. He is the one that forgives your sins. It is earned by word and deed and kind aspirations.

 

[aSoldier]

To some members this post might look like a lot of hot air, especially coming from a preacher who does not do as he says.

 

No, it looks like a lot of hot air to you. I'm not a preacher, and what do I not do that I say? Please explain.

[Yervant1]

No, it looks like a lot of hot air to you. I'm not a preacher, and what do I not do that I say? Please explain.

Calling other member's opinions as BS is a very unChristian thing to do if not uncivilsed. You talk about the love of Jesus, how to be respectful to one another, have faith in Him and forgiving (Which is the topic) and yet you don't show any respect to this forum and it's members by saying that you have seen a lot of BS here which contains your posts as well. Do you get the picture or should I continue?

[Takoush]

Forgive me if this is not of topic; but I felt it fitting after Yervant's input.

 

Dear Aubepine, I love your input in here and everywhere. You are indeed an open minded individual and a very respectful personna. Whatever you say here, there and everywhere is certainly welcomed by me and whoever appreciates your unbiased, objectively and humility derived opinions.

Edited October 10, 2007 by Anahid Takouhi

[aSoldier]

Calling other member's opinions as BS is a very unChristian thing to do if not uncivilsed. You talk about the love of Jesus, how to be respectful to one another, have faith in Him and forgiving (Which is the topic) and yet you don't show any respect to this forum and it's members by saying that you have seen a lot of BS here which contains your posts as well. Do you get the picture or should I continue?

 

If you look closer you'll see that his "opinion" was actually being passed on as fact and not his opinion at all. If it is false, there is no reason to say it is not BS. Right?

 

I do have respect for everyone here, that's why I didn't personally attack him or anyone else in any way. What I meant when I said I have seen BS on this forum is in regards to posts like these, which just do nothing but put down other peoples beliefs with no words along the lines of "in my opinion".

 

Regardless, if I still come off as hypocritical to you I suggest you stop looking at my religion and realize I'm just another human that will make mistakes from time to time. I never use my God as an excuse to sin and it is at that point where I am furthest away from Him.

[Yervant1]

If you look closer you'll see that his "opinion" was actually being passed on as fact and not his opinion at all. If it is false, there is no reason to say it is not BS. Right?

 

I do have respect for everyone here, that's why I didn't personally attack him or anyone else in any way. What I meant when I said I have seen BS on this forum is in regards to posts like these, which just do nothing but put down other peoples beliefs with no words along the lines of "in my opinion".

 

Regardless, if I still come off as hypocritical to you I suggest you stop looking at my religion and realize I'm just another human that will make mistakes from time to time. I never use my God as an excuse to sin and it is at that point where I am furthest away from Him.

Dear Seb,

 

If you read her post again she has this to say

Hardly the reaction of a sane person in my opinion

So it is very clear that this was her opinion and she is entitled to it whether we agree with it or not.

 

You say and I qoute,

I have seen BS on this forum

Is very different than this one and I qoute again,

i've seen a lot of BS on this forum

The word here is "A LOT" which means mostly, hence most of the posts are BS in this forum.

 

What I find ironic is that you are agreeing with the auther of that article that people should be forgiving no matter what and yet you don't have the forgiveness in your heart for other members opinions, good or bad and call it a BS and offer the cake. Do you see what I'm getting at when I told you about the preaching.

 

[Stormig]

Forgive me if this is not of topic; but I felt it fitting after Yervant's input.

 

Dear Aubepine, I love your input in here and everywhere. You are indeed an open minded individual and a very respectful personna. Whatever you say here, there and everywhere is certainly welcomed by me and whoever appreciates your unbiased, objectively and humility derived opinions.

Geez, get a PM.

[Stormig]

Well, I did post this under "life" for a reason - did not want to get it religious, at least not too religious.

What has really been on my mind is that some people will run after you with an axe for the slightest of slights, and most people let such roll over their backs. At the other end of the spectrum, you have people with the above story under horrible circumstances, albeit with religious reasons. So who is better off? I very much see the point behind harbouring the sort of feelings which harm the host, but then are not grief and revenge natural feelings? Or is it that revenge is a human concoction? Do other life forms seek revenge? Does a mother bear go after the slayer of her cubs? Why not? (Though we hear stories of vindictive elephants razing villages in the countryside.) In the human instance with the above story, is it what is called "rationalisation"?

[aSoldier]

Dear Seb,

 

If you read her post again she has this to say

 

So it is very clear that this was her opinion and she is entitled to it whether we agree with it or not.

 

You say and I qoute,

 

Is very different than this one and I qoute again,

 

The word here is "A LOT" which means mostly, hence most of the posts are BS in this forum.

 

What I find ironic is that you are agreeing with the auther of that article that people should be forgiving no matter what and yet you don't have the forgiveness in your heart for other members opinions, good or bad and call it a BS and offer the cake. Do you see what I'm getting at when I told you about the preaching.

 

Since when does 'a lot' mean 'most'?

 

Regardless, I didn't seem to notice that she had in fact added the 'in my opinion' part, having said that I retract my initial post.

Edited October 11, 2007 by aSoldier