Orthography, State & Diaspora

[Shahan Araradian]

* This is a whole different issue as the Ւ was never meant to sound like VՎ but just as its counterpart U sound like the English W. That is why auto/oto/աւտո is pronounced as avto/ավտո instead of օտօ.

Precisely! And once people (really "linguists" debating this issue) realize this (via training in classical Armenian phonology) then they will see how ridiculous it is that the <ւ> is being changed to <վ> in reformed orthography, wherever <ւ> is today (incorrectly) being enunciated as /v/.

 

Diphthongs using <ւ> as in English "w" (take any vowel and add ւ):

աւ -- roughly /o/ (example: աւր -- now օր)

եւ -- roughly /ew/ (example: թեւ -- tew)

իւ -- exactly /ʏ/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-close_ne...t_rounded_vowel

ու -- exactly /u/

 

(In parenthesis. the ԹԻՒՆ was never ment to sound like tyun but rther like the French U. The reason why Sayat Nova calls himsel Arutin, Harutyun. գիւղ was never meant to be pronounced "gyugh" but "gugh" as the French would).

Arpha, FYI the IPA symbol for the sound represented by <իւ> is /ʏ/. The name of this sound is a Near-close near-front rounded vowel.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-close_ne...t_rounded_vowel

 

A sound bite of this sound -- for our reformed Armenian orthography lovers -- can be found here (so they realize the difference between <իւ> and <յու>):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...unded_vowel.ogg

Edited July 1, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Sassun]

For my parents' generation, there was no Armenia, no Armenian state. The Armenians of Syria and Lebanon had to create a pseudo-state, with Catholicos and ARF as national institutions. And they did a damn good job.

 

It is one thing to acknowledge the supremacy of the Armenian state (or at least acknowledge it as an equal), but to be treated with such disrespect from some of the 'intellectuals' from the Republic of Armenia is a very tough pill to swallow for those in the "traditional Diasora." It is a case of "What authority do you have to tell us what to do -- we've been doing it on our own for 90 years now..." I liken it to the case of an absentee father coming back into the life of an adult child and telling that child how to make decisions and live its life. Tough thing to do.

Exactly. You took the words right out of my mouth!

 

[vartahoor]

One of may favorites cliches is. “Այրած սրտի ք*ք մխիթարանք”.

If you are going to use the cliche “Այրած սրտի ք*ք մխիթարանք” then use it correctly which is «Այրւած սրտին ք*ք մխիթար» or in its original versioն «Էրված սրտին ք*ք մխիթար»:

Your use of the incorrect sentence structure clearly shows your lack of Knowledge in EA armenian grammar.

vartahoor

Edited July 3, 2007 by vartahoor

[Դրօ]

If you are going to use the cliche “Այրած սրտի ք*ք մխիթարանք” then use it correctly which is «Այրւած սրտին ք*ք մխիթար» or in its original versioն «Էրված սրտին ք*ք մխիթար»:

Your use of the incorrect sentence structure clearly shows your lack of Knowledge in EA armenian grammar.

vartahoor

It's Էրուած սրտին ք*ք մխիթար. The orthographical rules state that when a vowel follows the letters Ո and Ւ, a "V" sound would be produced.

 

So:

Էրուած

érouatz (not 'ts')

 

Is pronouced like:

ervatz

 

You can think of it as if it's like the German "W", which is also pronounced as a "V". I'm sure it's not too difficult to remember.

[vartahoor]

It's Էրուած սրտին ք*ք մխիթար. The orthographical rules state that when a vowel follows the letters Ո and Ւ, a "V" sound would be produced.

 

So:

Էրուած

érouatz (not 'ts')

 

Is pronouced like:

ervatz

 

You can think of it as if it's like the German "W", which is also pronounced as a "V". I'm sure it's not too difficult to remember.

I forgot to change the էրուած to էրւած, however in the first instance also the pronunciation is . I had previously explained the existence of , and . Stepan Malkhatsiants the famous lexicographer belonged to , Iranahays belong to and western aremenians belong to

Սուին Սվին Սւին

Դուին Դւին Դվին

Նուագել նւագել նվագել

«Էրուած սրտին ք*ք մխիթար» «էրւած սրտին ք*ք մխիթար», էրված սրտին ք*ք մխիթար»

«ուած» is pronounced as and not .

vartahoor

Edited July 5, 2007 by vartahoor

[Zartonk]

A you know, orthographically things seem to be in shambles for us, and as a steadily small population, this is nothing we can afford. We have already established here numerous times that the solution is returning to the system intended by Mashtots. It is also a logical extension that any efforts must eventually be legislated and centralized.

 

Now, what is and what will be the official policy of the RA regarding orthography?

[Arpa]

This subject has been debated numerous times, under a variety of Subject Topics. And when one reads them, one will see that we, including me have all spoken with emotion, prejudice and bias, very little scientific, except maybe those by HagopN.

----

A quote from here, Thank you Zartonk;

----

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=24308

Արթուր Արմին (Արթուր Լեւոնի Բաբայան):

---

Բայց հարցն այն է, թե ինչու հենց ցուլի տեղում ցուլ: Պարզվում է, որ ցուլ է, որովհետեւ մ.թ.ա. 5-րդ հազարամյակում մարտի 19-21-ի միջակայքում, երբ գարնանային գիշերահավասարն է եւ բնությունը զարթնում է, արեւը մտնում է ցուլի համաստեղություն: Եվ աստղերը կանգնում են հայկական Տավրոսի (տավար) գլխին: Ամբողջ երկինքը քարտեզավորված է Հայկական լեռնաշխարհի գետերի, լճերի եւ լեռների նմանությամբ եւ տեղադրությամբ: Տավրոսին տվել են Տավրոս-տավար անունը եւն::

My question is. Did Artur spell those words as written above or were they “edited” by the author of the article. See how many inconsistencies and confusions there are. At one point we see ԵՎ, then we see ԵՒ, we see արեՎ then we see արեՒ.

How did Artur conclude that տաՎար is connected to տաՎրոս? If he indeed spells it as “տաՎար”, how did he know that it means “bull/ցուլ”? When was the Armenian Վ equated to the Latin U as in TaUrus, TaUros? Why are we alienating our language from its linguistic IE family and furkifying/persifying/russifying it, like those who don’t have the W sound, and pronounce it as V. The Arabic “WA” to mean "and/ԵՒ" turns to “VE” in those languages. Also see how the Spanish call that animal- “toro/տաԸրո” and the Arabs call it (Johannes, please correct me) “ثور /thaur /թաՒր”.

A quote from the above.

Arpa

I am surprised at your childish statement regarding the use of "funny". You were the one who 8 years ago personally and during a phone conversation told me that it does not matter which orthography will become the acceptaable standard, that you will abide by it. …..

He altogether missed the implication of my sarcastic remark of “FUNNY”. Yes, many of our vernaculars and regional dialects may at times sound funny,and Aramazt knows how we have fun and a laugh, but my use of “funny” was meant to lampoon how some of us think the ԿԸ family is “funny” and others think the ՈՒՄ family is.

My comment was totally taken out of context and it was quoted partially. I did say words of the like and I stand by it. However here is what I had said-“I will abide and submit to a scientifically** linguistic debate and outcome”.

You will also see that those arguments by those so called “docents” and “economists” (read them again and see) had very little to do with orthography but, rather they were speaking from prejudice and bias towards the so called “western” idiom, vernacular and grammar. We attacked and silenced the likes of Shahan because they were doing more damage when they were all but saying that the stanbol furko-dialect was the legitimate heir of Grabar.

**Please, look again. I said “scientifically linguistical”. I did not say political, economic or, above all politico-factional like Yerevanahay V Beirutahay etc.

Which of them is TRULY AUNALDULTERATEDLY PURE ARMENIAN?

Here I go again.

Something that has irked me to no end.

WHAT RIGHT DO THEY at ՀայՊետ Հրատ) have to abeghianize the orthography of the likes of Mashtots,Khorenatsi, Narekatsi, Shnorhali, Tourian, Varouzhan, Siamanto, Abovian, Aghayan, Toumanian, Charents, Bakounts, Isahakian, et al, who, all of them have written in the Mashtotsian orthography.

If I see one more such bastardized orthography of our Immortals, I will scream. Just as I did when I spent hours editing it to its original Metsarents text.

What right do they have re-editing how and what the likes of Varouzhan et al have written??!!Observe the bartadaized version here, and compare with original as written by Misak below.

ԱՆԱՆՈՒՆ

 

Վայրի՜ ծաղիկ, անունդ ի՞նչ է,

ըսե՛, մասուր ու կանանչե

ցանկապատին շուքին նստած

վայրի՜ ծաղիկ, անունդ ի՞նչ է:

 

Ըսպիտակ, կաթ ու մազտաքե

բուրող ծաղիկ, անունդ ի՞նչ է.

ըսե՛, քի՛չ մը գեթ չե՞ս դողար,

հովիկն անուշ երբոր փըչե...:

 

Հըպա՜րտ ծաղիկ, անունն ի՞նչ է

պարիկին, որ անցավ քովեդ,

հեզուկ ու սև սաթի վետվետ

ցայտք մը ձըգած իր քամակեն:

 

Գիտե՜ս, ծաղի՜կ, անունն ի՞նչ է

դողին՝ զոր քեզ տըվավ հովիկ,

ու ձայնին՝ որ զիս կը կանչե...:

And see how I re-edited it to its original orthography. Simply because I have the original version. Thank you the Kilikian Catholicosate at Antelias. I wish I had the originals as written by Toumanian and Isahakian. All I have is printed in soviet times with soviet "ORTHO??graphy/schmorthography devisd by marx-engels-lenin and stalin. When and where did those idiots learn Armenian?

I have had the anthology by Grigor Zohrab for a long time. I never paid attention, until I finally noticed how this edition by HyePetHrat had sovietized his original orthography. Fotunately, I can still read it and understand even if some of the linguistic nuances have bee obscured. But for how long? I know the difference between the original and the edited version by those buffoons at the Yerevan publishing house.

Let me repeat. How the hell do they have the right to alter the orthography that the likes of Tourian, Metsarents, Varouzan and Zohrab, Abovian, Toumanian, Aghayan, Charents Bakounts and Isahakian have used??

 

Do we edit the orthography the way the likes of Sevak, Mahari etc have used? I doubt if they in fact used that sovietsky/orthographtski.Yes, yes. By all means, let us forget all this Mashtots Alphabet and adopt the Russky Cyrillisky.

We saw the sovietized version above. Now let us see how Misak had written;

Միսաք Մեծարենց

 

ԱՆԱՆՈՒՆ

 

Վայրի՜ ծաղիկ, անունդ ի՞նչ է,

ըսէ՛, մասուր ու կանանչ

ցանկապատին շուքին նստած

վայրի՜ ծաղիկ, անունդ ի՞նչ է։

 

Ըսպիտակ, կաթ ու մազտաքէ

բուրող ծաղիկ, անունդ ի՞նչ է.

ըսէ՛, քի՛չ մը գէթ չե՞ս դողար,

հովիկն անուշ երբոր փըչէ...։

 

Հըպա՜րտ ծաղիկ, անունն ի՞նչ է

պարիկին, որ անցաւ քովէդ,

հեզուկ ու սեւ սաթի վէտվէտ

ցայտք մը ձըգած իր քամակէն:

 

Գիտե՜ս, ծաղի՜կ, անունն ի՞նչ է

դողին՝ զոր քեզ տուաւ հովիկ,

ու ձայնին՝ որ զիս կը կանչէ…

----

IN CONCLUSION, I DON’T GIVE A RAT’S ARSE IF THOSE APARATCHIKS IN YEREVAN TOTALLY TRASH THE MESROPIAN ORTHOGRAPHY AND ALPABET, AND INSTEAD ADOPT TURKSKY, PERSKY AND RUSSKY CYRILLISKY.

No harm done you would say?

How would we know that ՏաՎ րոս spelled with Վ is in fact the analog of TaUrus? How would we know the difference between սԵր and սԷր when in latter the Էturns to Ի as in սիրել, սիրուն but the former Ե does not.

As things go, there are less than 2 million “Armenians” left who know the language and even less those who care.. How long will it take for it to go down to O (zero), to the dustbin of history?

Why don’t we forget the whole thing, trash Mashtots, and do like the azis did 3 times, from Arabic to Cyrillic to Latin. What and where is the azi alphabet?. Let us do likewise, adopt the Cyrillic, maybe in so doing that maniac maniuk abeghovsky, wherever the H he is, will jump with joy and dance around the “fire”.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Arpa

[Armenak]

Check this documentary out...

 

 

@19:00 -- How the hell was Anastas Mikoyan not aware of the language reforms being carried out? He was probably the most powerful and influential Armenian figure in the Soviet Union at the time...

[Arpa]

　

WOW!!!

Thank you Armenak for this powerful debate. Seems like I had written it.

Just as I share your enthusiasm, I also share your pain, as our friends would say Tsav@d tanem. Please don’t expect much in response. This subject was discussed at multiple times under a variety of topics, where even then the responses were limited at best and most of the participants have resigned or otherwise disappeared. You will also notice that none of the remaining present members participated in the debate, more notably the majority of the debaters were so called WA diasporans with very little, if any by EA s. I may have my opinions about that phenomenon which will not be discussed here.

We are so obsessed and blinded with the impending anniversary of the Big G of 1915, as we approach the 100^th anniversary of the Big Massacre, very few of us remember that this year 2012 (1922) is the 90^th anniversary of that other Big Massacre and murder of Mesrop Mashtots.

Too bad that I have to write this in English as in the new and that improved sadistic fiasco HTML has made it all but impossible writing in Armenian. As our good Friend Johannes would say- How is it that we are talking about the Armenian Language but speaking in foreign tongues?

Sadly all the participants in these debates have either resigned or eternally forever gone to heaven. You will also notice that the main contributors were either Dasporan or Persian Armenians, who may have had personal traumatic and psychological agendas, with little or none by our EA friends with the exception of very few like SAS.

Please note that most of the arguments in the video dwell on the political, i.e Us V Them and economic aspects of the issue, just as I have brought up on several occasions. And Church V State

See minutes 6:40 and on..

I had to stop at every minute of the debate to further digest what had been said before. As to your quote from Mikoyan , please read the text - Ketse Marti out@ … vor@….??

More point by point will follow. For now I will only comment about that lame excuse that the Children students were confused. We as children were not confused learning traditional orthography. It is not the students but the teachers whose mother language may have been/is Russian who were/are confused.**

====

**Please go back to the topic of Rojik and see in the Armenian version the word SHPOT used to mean the grape syrup/paste. I had never seen it in that context. We know in the Armenian SHPOT means confusion.

Reminds me the times when our mothers would run out of ideas and dump everything, all the leftover vegetables and more in the cooking pot and call it Shasht@m Ash@ , confused stew/soup/apour.

PS. I have to watch the video again to bring up point and point arguments. Once again, sadly many of our remaining correspondents would rather talk about furkish subjects like names of the foodstuff and rabiz v Komitas, as if this HyeForum is a furk-forum.. I don’t blame them as very few know the difference between furkish, Persian, Georgian**, Russian and Armenian Language and culture, when they insist that ghourban and jan are Armenian words.

Dear Armenak, this your post shows that you have mastered the art of poking my ribs. We need to talk in private, please respond to my Dec. 13 PM to you.

**Remember when someone said that Lobi is from the Georgian? Shows that in Armenia Ajarian and Ghapantsian are swear words and that the likes of Ivan-shvili compose the Armenian dictionaries.

[Arpa]

　

HETQ has picked up that video of the debate. Dear Armenak, don’t expect much debate, like what I said above, so far as expected, there is no readers’ participation as the common citizen there, just as everywhere else lacks the knowledge and the sophistication about the subject.

Among many;

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=18194&st=40

We will notice in the video many references beside the personal, to the socio-political aspect of the debate, i.e US v THEM just as we have on many occasions. Not to forget that some argue the technical difficulties, like the lack of qualified teachers. To repeat what I have said before- That the children were confused then as they will today, it is not the childrens’ confusion but the confusion of the teachers whose first language may have/is other than Armenian.

I was surprised to see some people that we know of, the likes of Paruyr Hayrikian and Levon Chukazian (My refurkified spelling) speaking in favor.

We here have often discussed this dilemma and debacle under many topics like Eastern - Western Armenian and more. As if we being so small with less than 3 million of us speaking Armenian we can afford and divide the Nation to East, West, North and South.

What will we talk about when the Armenian Language becomes remanded to the dustbin of history and is listed among the Dead Languages?

Not to worry. We can always speak pig latin, i.e Russky, Arabic, French, Apanish, English and, and …. furkish just like they do in Yerevan Armenian where speak is 30% Russian, 20% furkish,, 20 % Persian with about 30% Mesropian.

Please note the main debate about our linguistic Roots and see what I have said before.

http://hetq.am/eng/news/21949/a-return-to-roots-film-promotes-benefits-of-unified-armenian-orthography.html

And the Armenian;

http://hetq.am/arm/news/21949/a-return-to-roots-film-promotes-benefits-of-unified-armenian-orthography.html

12:28, December 28, 2012

This one hour film Haroutyoun explores the history and implications of changes made to traditional Armenian orthography in the 1920s.

It raises a number of timely issues including how these changes have weakened chances for forging a united Armenian collective and how it had degraded the etymology of the language.

The authors call for a return to traditional spelling, arguing that it is not only feasible but a strategic imperative for national cohesiveness and linguistic development