I Am Confused!

[Lev7]

So, are they recognizing the Genocide or trying to trick Armenians again?

 

http://www.eliewieselfoundation.org/PressR...onciliation.pdf

[DominO123]

So, are they recognizing the Genocide or trying to trick Armenians again?

 

http://www.eliewieselfoundation.org/PressR...onciliation.pdf

 

 

 

It's trash, a politically correct statment, agreeing with both sides. Such declarations have absolutly no value other than making matters worst and it like US politics.

 

 

[Arpa]

So, are they recognizing the Genocide or trying to trick Armenians again?

http://www.eliewieselfoundation.org/PressR...onciliation.pdf

If we’re going to trust our destiny to the likes of Elie the “weasel” who has exploited our "genocidal" tragedy to promote his “holocaust/schmolocaust”, then we deserve all that befall us.

Here he is; Pop goes the weasel

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/weasel.htm

Here is one the definitions of “weasel”.

3 : a sneaky, untrustworthy, or insincere person

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/weasel

 

Edited April 11, 2007 by Arpa

[zurderer]

They basically say, It would be crime, If AG happened after Genocide convention. So Turkey should accept it as genocide as ethicall but give nothing for it.

 

 

[DominO123]

They basically say, It would be crime, If AG happened after Genocide convention. So Turkey should accept it as genocide as ethicall but give nothing for it.

 

 

That was exactly the point made. It says to the Armenians, it is ethically a genocide, get satisfied with it. And to the Turks, it was not legally a crime of genocide, and there is no accountability, get satisfied with it. It is a BS declaration which is only good at wipping ones @ss with it. But those who prepared this declaration forgot one thing, and that indeed there is accountability as the allied power have prepared a declaration in which they specifically refer to the accountability of any thing which might happen to the Armenians. Retroactivity is also totally bogus here, as according to it, the Shoah neither happened after the term was coined.

 

 

[Lev7]

Genocide is Genocide, it does not matter if it happened after the term was coined, even Raphael Lemkin said that the Armenian Genocide falls under the category of Genocide

[zurderer]

They are trying to find middle way. Otherwise, They would be accuse with becoming one-sided.

 

 

It is a BS declaration which is only good at wipping ones @ss with it.

 

I dont think, that decleration deserve any shit.

 

Genocide is Genocide, it does not matter if it happened after the term was coined, even Raphael Lemkin said that the Armenian Genocide falls under the category of Genocide

 

Lev, they call it genocide which happened too early, so It cannot be named as genocide. So It is genocide which is not genocide.

[Yervant1]

They are trying to find middle way. Otherwise, They would be accuse with becoming one-sided.

There is no middle ground in Genocide.

 

I dont think, that decleration deserve any shit.

Yes you are right it deserves more than shit.

 

Lev, they call it genocide which happened too early, so It cannot be named as genocide. So It is genocide which is not genocide.

Wouldn't you love it if this was the case? You keep playing your immoral word games.

 

[zurderer]

Wouldn't you love it if this was the case? You keep playing your immoral word games.

 

are you mad? I am not the one who write that trash. Attack another one.

 

[gamavor]

It doesn't matter how it is coined. What matters is that Turkey (as well as Germany), as successor of the Ottoman Empire owes Armenia 70 billion dollars plus the interest accrued for the material loss inflicted on the Armenian populace in the Ottoman Empire and restoration of the ownership rights over the lands within the present borders of so-called Turkey. Also, abolition of the international treaties regarding the Armenian-Turkish border drafted and signed by the Bolshevik leaders of Soviet Russia (on behalf of Armenia) and Kemalist Turkey.

[Yervant1]

are you mad? I am not the one who write that trash. Attack another one.

Then why don't you call it a trash, instead of playing.

[zurderer]

It doesn't matter how it is coined. What matters is that Turkey (as well as Germany), as successor of the Ottoman Empire owes Armenia 70 billion dollars plus the interest accrued for the material loss inflicted on the Armenian populace in the Ottoman Empire and restoration of the ownership rights over the lands within the present borders of so-called Turkey. Also, abolition of the international treaties regarding the Armenian-Turkish border drafted and signed by the Bolshevik leaders of Soviet Russia (on behalf of Armenia) and Kemalist Turkey.

 

I think you did not see what they are talking. They are not talking about ottoman-turkish issue. Infact they were saying that AG was not a crime against genocide law. but It was an ethic wrong doings(they named as genocide.)

 

If AG was not a crime, so You cannot wait any restoration.

 

 

Then why don't you call it a trash, instead of playing

 

It is not my problem If you dont see my critism. I should also add, be sure most of Turks dont like this case. They believe innocence of their ancestors, so They dont like their ancestors were murderers.(Please differentiate people and goverment.)

 

 

 

 

[Error 404]

By the way zurderer,

 

what is going on with you guys and kurds? It looks like the situation is under tension. Are you guys going to do the KG too?

 

You know what zureder traitors deserve the punishment.

 

As Julius Cesar once said:

 

"I love treason but I hate traitors"

 

 

[Yervant1]

I think you did not see what they are talking. They are not talking about ottoman-turkish issue. Infact they were saying that AG was not a crime against genocide law. but It was an ethic wrong doings(they named as genocide.)

 

If AG was not a crime, so You cannot wait any restoration.

Man you are something else now you are telling us what the damn letter is saying, don't forget you are the one with the broken English. We know the contant of that letter and what it means, it means a big BS so are your comments about it.

 

It is not my problem If you dont see my critism. I should also add, be sure most of Turks dont like this case. They believe innocence of their ancestors, so They dont like their ancestors were murderers.(Please differentiate people and goverment.)

Also we don't give a horses @ss what they believe in. The truth is out there let them look for it instead of believing what their government is telling them, somehow you found out about it.

 

[gamavor]

I think you did not see what they are talking. They are not talking about ottoman-turkish issue. Infact they were saying that AG was not a crime against genocide law. but It was an ethic wrong doings(they named as genocide.)

 

If AG was not a crime, so You cannot wait any restoration.

 

Maybe in Turkey this is a norm, but in the civilized world whenever someone is disposed of his possessions without just compensation, the later is entitled to restoration and restitution.

 

Same goes for the international agreements to which Turkey is a party. I think all these issues should be brought to the respective international body (court) whenever the Armenian government decides so.

 

[zurderer]

what is going on with you guys and kurds? It looks like the situation is under tension. Are you guys going to do the KG too?

 

We are fine, thanks for your interest. I dont wait a KG do you?

 

Man you are something else now you are telling us what the damn letter is saying, don't forget you are the one with the broken English. We know the contant of that letter and what it means, it means a big BS so are your comments about it.

 

Lev, they call it genocide which happened too early, so It cannot be named as genocide. So It is genocide which is not genocide.

 

I think this is enough for commenting. should I teach you what is irony? I am making fun with trash.

 

Maybe in Turkey this is a norm, but in the civilized world whenever someone is disposed of his possessions without just compensation, the later is entitled to restoration and restitution.

 

If there is a crime, acording to these guys. There is not any crime.(Anyway, It is not my ideas but their ideas. Personaly I think, Turkey should give some repreation to armenians, not ROA.)

 

Same goes for the international agreements to which Turkey is a party. I think all these issues should be brought to the respective international body (court) whenever the Armenian government decides so.

 

Hmm, decide quicly. It looks like turkey will close borders, until ROA decide.

 

[gamavor]

Hmm, decide quicly. It looks like turkey will close borders, until ROA decide.

 

Genocide is collective crime. The victims are collectively put to death or expelled, or violated in any possible way. Whether or not the international community will label those acts as genocide is immaterial when it comes to compensation and restoration. The loss of property without just compensation (no matter the criminal nature of the disposition) is subject to vindication.

 

Republic of Armenia is entitled to compensations due to blunt violations of international law on part of Turkey.

 

As I said, we are not experts on this matter (for sure you are not), let's leave these issues to a competent authority.

As to the close borders....we conduct very successful psychological war against Turkey. The whole world can see who is telling the truth and who is lying and that is out of control of the governments and politicians.

 

Thank you Al Gor for the Internet. God bless you:)))

 

[irlandahay]

If we’re going to trust our destiny to the likes of Elie the “weasel” who has exploited our "genocidal" tragedy to promote his “holocaust/schmolocaust”, then we deserve all that befall us.

Here he is; Pop goes the weasel

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/weasel.htm

Here is one the definitions of “weasel”.

3 : a sneaky, untrustworthy, or insincere person

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/weasel

 

ok enough!

 

Elie Weasel is a good guy. he did alot to promote our genocide. after all he was part of the convention that recognised it as a genocide. so what if he promotes the suffering of his people? has he no right to mourne his own dead? he himself is a survivor of the holocaust. oh but no your right, wer the only ones allowed and when someone helps us...hes not doing enough so we have to bash him, until we make him hate us so much that he never wants to work for us again. and even after that, we dont try to understand...we further bash him! for gods sakes people used to bash poor Hrant dink...now that hes dead hes everyones hero and a great man!

 

i swear some armenians are such hypocrits!

Edited April 11, 2007 by irlandahay

[irlandahay]

They are trying to find middle way. Otherwise, They would be accuse with becoming one-sided.

 

 

I dont think, that decleration deserve any shit.

Lev, they call it genocide which happened too early, so It cannot be named as genocide. So It is genocide which is not genocide.

 

so the conquistadors whiping out the myas was not genocide?

 

you have weird logic you know that...

[irlandahay]

Man you are something else now you are telling us what the damn letter is saying, don't forget you are the one with the broken English. We know the contant of that letter and what it means, it means a big BS so are your comments about it.

Also we don't give a horses @ss what they believe in. The truth is out there let them look for it instead of believing what their government is telling them, somehow you found out about it.

 

my king, dont mind him, he himself is quite confused...

 

zerderer...are you retarded? My eyes still hurt from what you previously wrote...if you dont remember, let me remind you: "If AG was not a crime, so You cannot wait any restoration"

 

sine when is genocide not a crime? did you knwo the term "crimes against humanity" that bush utters in everyone of his texts was originally used to describe the armenian treatment in the ottoman empire? did you know that the AG is the most documented and closely followed genocide in the world?

 

you truly are a sic prick you know that? how was the systematic annihilation of a 5000 year old people NOT A CRIME? when someone calls ataturk a homo, thats a crime, but a genocide? naaah.

 

you disgust me!

 

obviously we have to be realistic tho, Im not here to claim long lost kurd and turk infested territories, I'm not here to ask for outrageous amounts of money in reparations, I only want to know that my people wont turn into a chapter in history. I only want to know that our historical constructions, the traces that we were there and the knowledge of what happened be remembered. I want to know that the crosses off our beautiful churches arnt removed and that our glorious fortresses arnt turned into meuseums.

 

thats all...

[DominO123]

Gam, the guy is not saying that it is not a crime, he is basically saying what the declaration says, and basically this is what the declaration says. It is a genocide, but not a genocide, not a genocide genocide, but a genocide genocide etc...

 

 

 

 

Genocide is collective crime. The victims are collectively put to death or expelled, or violated in any possible way. Whether or not the international community will label those acts as genocide is immaterial when it comes to compensation and restoration. The loss of property without just compensation (no matter the criminal nature of the disposition) is subject to vindication.

 

Republic of Armenia is entitled to compensations due to blunt violations of international law on part of Turkey.

 

As I said, we are not experts on this matter (for sure you are not), let's leave these issues to a competent authority.

As to the close borders....we conduct very successful psychological war against Turkey. The whole world can see who is telling the truth and who is lying and that is out of control of the governments and politicians.

 

Thank you Al Gor for the Internet. God bless you:)))

 

 

[gamavor]

Gam, the guy is not saying that it is not a crime, he is basically saying what the declaration says, and basically this is what the declaration says. It is a genocide, but not a genocide, not a genocide genocide, but a genocide genocide etc...

 

I know and I understand. I know the motives of Ellie Weissel! Keeping the uniqueness of the Holocaust and tangential recognition of other "tragedies", because goyas do not deserve such attention as the God's "chosen".

 

Their whole premise is wrong for the simple fact that there are no statutes of limitations when it comes to crimes against humanity. Reconciliation cannot substitute the process of recognition. It simply cannot. If deemed otherwise, it would mean bargaining. Is anybody willing to bargain with the blood of million people dead only because they were Christian and Armenian?

 

As to legal definitions and legal prescription to indemnify the losses incurred during the Genocide (material and moral) I think they have a point, in a sense that the legal remedies stipulated in the UN Convention on prevention of Genocide can only be applied to instances of Genocide after the adoption of the convention. In other words, the legal measures to indemnify the victims of the genocide and their heirs cannot be applied retroactively, however as a general rule, whenever and wherever there is disturbance of civil rights, interest, and in general, party that sustained losses due to wrongful behavior is entitled to compensation.

 

Republic of Turkey is responsible for:

 

1. Physical destruction through calculated death marches of the peaceful Armenian populace.

2. Responsibility for the material loss of their assets (real estate, movables, etc.)

3. Infliction of moral distress

4. Destruction of the cultural heritage of the Armenians in Western Armenia. (Churches, Monasteries, social buildings, etc..)

 

 

 

 

[neko]

 

Republic of Armenia is entitled to compensations due to blunt violations of international law on part of Turkey.

 

Under what laws or conventions? ROA did not exist when the genocide took place. Don't confuse the Establishment in Europe and America pandering to Israel and the Jewish lobby with anything that has a real legal justification.

Edited April 17, 2007 by neko

[Z'areh]

Basically Elie Wiesel is a good person, and he has indeed contributed positively in regards the Armenian genocide in the past. But he is by no means an intellectual giant as he has been portrayed in media and academia. He tells his story eloquently, just like any eloquent survivor of any genocide would. Moral authority concerning genocide, whether one agrees or not, has been associated with his name throughout the years, so people listen when he talks about genocide.

 

But the person behind this declaration is someone with the name of Phillips that runs the Elie Wiesel foundation. This is the same person behind the now defunct TARC, which I thought and still think that it was a good idea, the proof of it was the complete paralysis of the Turkish side when it came to "proving" the AG.

 

Now this Phillips person is trying another angle, and again I think that it will benefit the Armenians in the long run.

 

First, the idea of AG not being retroactively compensatory issue is bankrupt form the start. If compensation is only for those genocides having occurred after the UN signed the Genocide Convention after 1945 means Israel and the Jewish diaspora would have to return all financial compensations back to Germany, plus interest.

 

Secondly, the political nature of this declaration is outright shameful. What does running a fair and clean election in Armenia have to do with issues of Genocide? Why doesn't the declaration come out and clearly state: the Ottoman Empire is guilty of Genocide against its own innocent Armenian citizens, Period. They come out and say it in a convoluted and half-mouthed manner.

 

When speaking about the Holocaust does anyone mention the atrocities and war crimes the Israeli army committed and commits regularly against the Arabs of Lebanon and Palestine? NO. Therefore, the next time the world commemorates the Holocaust, they should also mention that any president of the State of Israel should have high moral standards, and that the president should not rape secretaries working in the office.

 

So, this so-called "call for reconciliation" let's call it a half-measured start, but by no means a satisfactory step towards a fair human rights declaration. As it stands it stinks of backdoor politics.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Z'areh

[gamavor]

First, the idea of AG not being retroactively compensatory issue is bankrupt form the start. If compensation is only for those genocides having occurred after the UN signed the Genocide Convention after 1945 means Israel and the Jewish diaspora would have to return all financial compensations back to Germany, plus interest.

 

Exactly but not exactly. Crimes against humanity are not bound by statutes of limitation. That said, the measures to indemnify the heirs of the victims could not have retroactive effect simply because retroactivity is not an issue.

I have the feeling that both Mr. Phillips and prof. Weissel apply the same approach as to the one of the Jewish Holocaust, (my respects for that) but I think here we are dealing with different type of crime. The Armenian genocide was a crime perpetrated against native population, whereas the Jewish holocaust was a classic example of minority persecution and extermination.

 

All in all, the whole recognition process (including the legal ramifications that are inevitable) would be extremely complicated legal task.