Basque

[Harut]

did you know that basque language and Armenian have some symilarities. sometimes they are very strang ones. if i'm not mistaken, in Armenia some professors have done a lot work on this, trying to find connections.

 

for example, word "urmia", also lake in currant iran, doesn't mean anything in the languages of the region. but in basque it means "shallow". in reality lake urmia is very shallow. (btw: lake's name in Arm is kaputan)

interesting?

 

i remamber one professor (don't remember the name) giving a interview on tv. he had many more examples. i'll add when i recall them.

 

does anybody know more about this?

 

[ May 15, 2001: Message edited by: HarutPakhanyan ]

[ThornyRose]

Interesting... I had heard from my mother that there were some connections between Abkhazian and Basque - only allegedly so - perhaps indicative of some long-lost proto-Caucasian - the links have been lost with the Romanizing of Western Europe and the hordes of folks coming from elsewhere...

I think we will never really know... Pity...

 

Perhaps she got that from this one book I have in my library but haven't come around to reading... The book is a bit silly, in my opinion - Abkhazian is deemed to be the beginning of all European languages or some such (if not all Indo-European) - although you can't dispute, as the guy provides a word and its forms in several different languages... Still... Why Abkhazian?

[Berj]

Well, may be Abkhazia once was a great country which gave birth to other Indo-European nations and languages, but as much as I know the Sanscrit is considered to be the oldest Indo-European language.

 

[ May 16, 2001: Message edited by: Berj ]

[ThornyRose]

Well... I've always wondered why the "white race" got its name from the Caucasus... Perhaps there is more to the name?

I doubt there was such a country, though.

As for Sanskrit... Didn't know it was considered to be the oldest...

There are a few words in Turkish, loaned from Sanskrit, by the way. One that I have been told is "güneş" (which I thought made sense in Turkish as "companion to the day" - sun)... Another is "ev" (originally "eb," I thınk) - house. Both of these were told to me by the same person and I must have been so curious I still remember them. Don't know about veracity, though.

Other than that, Abkhazia (plus Georgia, I think) is the historic land of Colchida where Jason and the Argonauts went on their quest for the Golden Fleece.

A story I heard - when God created Earth, he sent his angel to distribute languages from a bag. The angel obeyed and gave a language a land, but when it came to the last piece of land, namely the Caucasus, the angel realized that there were still too many languages left for such a small patch of land. Regardless, it dumped the languages over the Caucasus - hence you have so many little nations there... (Same goes for most of Africa, too, though.)

[Guest]

Dear Berj,

Sanskrit is considered as the oldest Indo_European language, but the problem is that it is written much after it was once spoken, but the linguists all agree that Sanskrit had preserved more features of the proto_Indo_European than for example ancient Greek or Latin.

 

As For the similarities between basque and Armenian: Basque and Armenian are not related. Armenian is an Indo-European language, while Basque(=Euskera)is an isolated language.Some have speculated that Basque may be a branch of Caucasian languages, Basque grammar has indeed similarities with Georgian, but also north Caucasian languages as Chechen, but in lexicon and vocubulary they are very different.

 

PS.

URMIA is an Armaic (Assyrian name) means UR-mia city of water. Kaputan means the blues, or better said the (dark) blue lake.

 

just some notes

[Harut]

thanks guys for info.

i didn't know about that this much.

the little info i had was from tv program i saw 5 years ago.

i think i'm clear about this now.

[ThornyRose]

As far as I know, Abkhazian did not have its own script, although the family insigniae are perhaps the remnants of a long-lost writing. It is currently written in the Cyrillic alphabet which is certainly incapable of accomodating for the 64(?) sounds...

[Berj]

To my knowledge, Sanscrit is considered to be the oldest written Indo-European language beacuse the Indian epics "Mahabharata" and "Ramayana" were written in that language.

I'm not sure whether Abkhazian was a written language at that time.

 

I think the "white race" is called Caucasian by the western science for a number of reasons. According to the biblical legends Iaphet, the son of Noah, settled in Caucasus giving birth to the "white race". The oldest remaits of the "white monkey" (don't remember the scientific name of the "white monkey" but the "yellow one" was is called Cinantropus) were found in Caucasus. There were more but I don't remember them now.

 

I'll try to find out where "Caucasus" comes from.

[Guest]

Dear Filiz Abkhazian has a simple vowel sustem, but a sofisticated consonant system. in the 20s and 30s there have been attempts to write Abkhazian in the Georgian alphabet, but after Stalin's era they used Cyrilic alphabet although adjusted to the Abkhazian sound system. I don't know why an adjusted cyrilic alphabet would not be as good as an adjusted Latin alphabet. Alphabet is just a tool, if the tool is adjusted to your work, then you can use itappropriately.

[bellthecat]

I think the alleged connection between Basque and Armenian comes from Nikolai Marr's linguistic theories from the 1920s and 30s - only the connection wasn't with Armenian, but with Abkazian / Georgian / Uruatian, etc. (see my link to a page on Marr in the famous Armenians section)

 

Steve

 

PS,

Thorny Rose, the term "Caucasian" as an ethnic category for white Americans is only used in North America - nowhere else in the English speaking world is it used (abused?)thus. But where does the name "Thorny Rose" come from - I have heard it somewhere before, but forget where.

 

Steve

[ThornyRose]

Methinks you might remember me from Armenia-Diaspora Forum...

[Nvard]

As far as I know Basqese is mainly related to the Caucasian Languge family toghether with Georgian, Abkhazian,Chechen, Avarian,etc.They all belong to different gruops and Basqese is really an isolated one

It doesn't have anything in common with Armenian.

 

Does anyone know why the name Ruben appears only in Spanish and Amenian?

[MJ]

Well, I guess there is nothing better that I can do, other than to refer you to the mentioned story in the Old Testament.

 

P.S. BTW, in the 20th Century, Armenians have not written epics like Rostam and Dilara. And did you mean that the work of N.N. was an implementation of "Biuraspi Azhdahak?"

 

[ May 18, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Guest]

Dear MJ I prefer to write about it at the same topic there, not going offtopic discussions

[MJ]

OK. I read almost all threads.

[Guest]

Dear Nvard name Ruben exists in many countries.

 

If the Basque is a Caucasian language is never been proved, it has some grammatical similarity with Georgian but more with Chechen, but it's lexicon and vocubalary is totally different. The Georgians claim Basque is a relative of Georgian to become some sort of European, it is something recent and those people who say such a thing are usually not linguistically educated people. The grammatical similarity between Caucasian languages and Basque is not more than those with Dravidian or Maya for example, have you heared any Georgian attach himself with the Black Indians or the native Mexican? There is some ignorance in these claims of some people that make me laugh but this behaviour is actually very sad

[MJ]

Dear Nvard,

Ruben is a Biblical name. This was the name given to the long waited son of Abraham from his old wife Sarah. If I am not mistaken, Ruben translates as "Here is a son for you" from Hebrew, though in Hebrew it is pronounced differently - something like "Rakhim," I think.

[Guest]

Your point about biblical origin of Ruben is true and very valid, however i guess the semitic word Rakhim/Rahim (with glotal H) means compassiante and sympathy. I know many Jewish guys with the name Ruben, maybe it is related to Rabi, rabin, R-B in is a semitic root for Lord or God.

 

In old Andalucia in the Islamic periods also in many poems the word Rab is used instead of el Dio!

[bellthecat]

It was the screen name "Thorny Rose" that caught my eye. I was wondering if you had made it up - or got it from somewhere else, as I think it may have also been the pen name or alias of a 19th century writer (but I can't remember for certain).

Steve

[Nvard]

thank you guys for the Ruben history.

But what surprises me is that the pronounciaton and the stressing of the name RUBEN is exactly the same in Spanish and Armenian.It's obvious that RAHIM sounds kinda different

[Guest]

Dear Nvard I think that Rahim is another name than Ruben, RHM (Rahim) root you see in Ab-raham or Ib-rahim in hebrew while Ruben is probably from the Root RB (Rab) in semitic which means lord.

Anyway I would never name my son Ruben or rahim or Abraham etc... So this issue has not bothered me till now

[Berj]

Thank you for the info Tornado,

Do you actually know which language was "Avesta" written in.

[Boghos]

The Avesta was written in Avestan. Avesta itslef, a compilation of texts does not have a precise meaning, some scholars translate it as "text" others as "knwoledge" or "wisdom". Avestan is somewhat similar to Pahlavi.

 

Avestan is an Indo-Germanic language belonging to the Iranian group. Such as Pahlavi. The spoken form of Avestan is very similar to Sanskrit, and there have been many studies in that direction.

 

I am sorry to answer before Tornado who is probably more qualified than me. But Zoroastrianism interests me a lot.

[Boghos]

BTW, when I was in Iran I went to Yazd, one of the major centers for Zoroasters outside Bombay. I was able to talk to a few very interesting people, and visit the towers of silence...

[Guest]

Hi people Avesta is written in Avestan , some linguists think that Avestan is even older than Sanskrit because also Avestan has preserved the archaic Indo_european structures. Dear Boghos it is true that both Avestan and Pahlevi belong to the Iranian languages (Indo-European) but Pahlevi is a Miiddle Iranian language while Avestan is an Old Iranian language, actually there have been two sorts of Pahlevi 1-Parthian (Arcasides Pahlevi) whose lexicon is preserved in Armenian

2_Middle Persian (Sasanides pahlevi) which is more or less intelligible with the modern Persian.

 

BTW Speaking about the Zoroastrians: Did you know that in the Yazd region of Iran, in some rural places the Zoroastrians speak a language whose structure has similarities with the Armenian? BUt it is not a well researched language yet and may be extinct in the coming years, as the rural population will assimilate in the Urban population.

 

Iranyar and his Armenian linguist friends know more about this small language.

 

But about Zoroastrianism, of course it is a very intresting filosophy, The Zoroastrian past is one of the reasons that I am interested in this beautiful region of.

About Zoroastrianism you can talk more with Aryan Shah, Iranyar, Aryashahin and hakob at cyberiran.com, they have allways many links and adresses to the Zoroastrian sites and forums.