Dual Citizenship

[Guest]

This is not a new topic, but in light of Kocharian´s promise to bring it forward in Novemeber it is probably worth discussing it.

 

My take: citizenship should be based on blood ties or long term residence; voting rights only for citizens living in Armenia; military service remains compulsory; citizenship should be automatic and free for genocide survivors.

[Guest]

Boghos,

 

I think this is one of the most complex legislative issues facing the Republic of Armenia. Let me add also one more issue for discussions along the lines of citizenship -taxation, for now.

 

I will write my thoughts in more details a bit later, when my head is clear.

[Guest]

I have had this talk before. The republic of Armenia is not obliged to give each Armenian citizenshio, nor it is likely to happen. Armenia is not capable of absorbing more population. The most important task of Armenia's auythorities would be to bring security and economic prosperity for her population.

[Guest]

I am sorry, Iranyar: "Armenian is not capable of absorbing more population". If anything Armenia has exactly the opposite problem, population exodus. Moreover being an Armenian citizen does not mean necessarily being a resident of Armenia.

 

The RofA is not obliged to do anything. This is a topic that has been discussed for many years already. It just seems to be heating up a bit now.

 

The issue of citizenship is not a purely emotional one. I am myself critical of the souvenir type citizenship, nevertheless there are a number of other issues surrounding it. It can be done in a constructive fashion.

[Guest]

Dear Boghos,

 

This is my first try to discuss the issue you have raised. I think it is so complex, it is going to take many discussions, back and forth.

 

Let’s imagine that Armenia allows dual citizenship, which on an emotional level I am quite supportive of.

 

But let’s first notice that some countries with significant Armenian population don’t allow dual-citizenship, themselves. If I remember correctly, Syria belongs to this list, for example. Therefore, the institution of dual-citizenship is not going to be a universal panacea for the Diasporan Armenians. Also, even with the countries that do allow dual-citizenship, there are going to be numbers of constitutional contradictions as it pertains to holding elective offices, serving in the army, etc.

 

I think the following issues have to be addressed on an institutional level:

 

1. Conscription to the army of the Republic of Armenia;

 

As we know, it is mandatory for the citizens of Armenia. Now, I don’t believe the Government of Armenia can practically enforce it with the citizens, who hold also other country’s citizenship. This is going to generate two types of citizens – ones that serve in the army, and others that don’t. I think it is going to have demoralizing effect in a multiple of ways.

 

2. Residence issues

 

I am convinced that for long time to come, the majority of dual citizens are going to reside outside Armenia. I have met a lot of Diasporan Armenian who feel very sensitive about the Armenian citizenship issue, but in most of the cases, they have told me that they would like to die and be buried in Armenia, but haven’t met many who would like to live in Armenia. One of the concerns of Armenian leading politicians has been that most of the dual citizens are going to be involved with Armenian politics once every four years – during the elections, and probably are not going to bear the responsibility, or experience the consequences for their vote. I think these insinuations are not totally groundless.

 

3. Taxation

 

Armenia still doesn’t have mutual agreement on voiding double-taxation with USA, and other countries (cannot speak for Russia – don’t know). Obviously this issue also needs to be addressed.

 

Without addressing any of the issues above, the dual citizenship indeed will look like souvenir citizenship.

 

Finally, institutionally speaking, even if theoretically acceptable solutions to these issues are given, it will be incredibly difficult for Armenia to implement them. There are many issues that come with citizenship. For example, if an Armenian citizen is being tried in a court of foreign country, it will drag Armenia into the process. Armenia cannot afford it. With the scattering of Armenians around the world, and the fact that there are more Armenians outside Armenia than inside, I see only problems for Armenia with the dual citizenship.

 

In your message you mention a couple of circumstances, when the citizenship may be granted. I think in these situations, the current law allows granting citizenship, assuming I guess that one renounces his/her other citizenship.

 

I am sure my answers are not going to be found satisfactory, since there is a lot more to it than was discussed, but to summarize, I think it is not practical and expedient for the republic of Armenia to accept dual-citizenship. R. Kocharian, under the pressure of Diasporan organization may go for it, but I think it will be the beginning of institutional nightmare.

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 05, 2000).]

[Guest]

MJ you bring up interesting points, but you didn’t point out to positive sides of dual citizenship. There are examples in modern world that show that if correctly applied dual citizenship can be a major asset for the country. Take an Israeli example. They do allow a dual citizenship, and yet they still have a compulsory conscription in their army. By allowing dual citizenship Armenia will create more opportunities for diaspora communities to be connected to their homeland. You have to realize that many diasporans feel more connected to Armenia, than to the countries they live in. It will also boost the economic activities in Armenia, since easier access to the country will help Armenian businessman to make more investments. Also, the capital invested by Armenian businessman will be in less liquid assets, considering the emotional attachment to diasporans to Armenia. This will avoid the flight of capital in critical economic times (that’s what happened in Mexico in 95). I am not big proponent to privatization of assets to foreign companies, whose outlook is very short term. I think using diasporan capital will allow the government to plan to fully realize development potential of our nation. Armenian government should embrace the diaspora, and develop symbiotic relationships with it. Diaspora is asset Armenian government can not afford to ignore.

[Guest]

Alpha, don't get me wrong. In my heart I am very much for it. I just think it is very hard to implement, and will be an institutional nightmare, as I mentioned in the previous message. But if you are aware of a robust mechanism, I would very much be supportive of it.

[Guest]

Dear MJ, Alpha,

 

I do believe that this is essentially a political question and that Kocharian will go for it to appease the diaspora.

 

As to the taxation issue there are a number of ways of dealing with it, such as time of residence within the fiscal year and others. At this point in time, Armenia does not yet have an efficient tax collection system, so by the time it becomes a practical issue I think we will have already sorted out a number of other much more pressing issues.

 

Military service is indeed a very serious issue. And I cannot argue for anything else but equality before the law for everybody. Hence the most patriotic and militant diasporan Armenians might have the chance to serve the national army, not an altogether bad idea. The army has a bad reputation in the way it treats conscripts, but well, that´s another topic altogether. Most new citizens will likely be older Armenians...

 

As to the legal side of the story I wouldn´t worry about it, many countries do not dispense any help (in some cases just hazards) to their citizens abroad. This will be the case for Armenia.

 

It is true that there are countries that do not accept double citizenship, but in practice there is very little they can and do about it.

 

However I am very skeptical on the economic incentive of citizenship. I think the changes we need are of a structural nature in order to encourage diasporan investment in much larger scale.

[Guest]

bavakanin lav garaparner yev verlutsumner , yes inks el k@tsankanayi linel Yerk-Qaraqatsy, inchpes verevum nshvets Izraeli qaraqatsiner@ unen iys hnaravorutyun@.

inchu che Tarekan Yekamtaharki vorosh mas@ kareli e iyd depkum orinakanoren vcharel Hayastanin , vstah em bazmativ Hye Gortsater yev inchu miyayn gortsaterer indz yev dzez n@man sovorakan mrdik el irents Tax-er@ kurren Hayastanin yev kam k@bajanen inchvor mi dzev, poxanak kaskatsely nviratsvutyuner anelu iys kam iyn kusaktsakan @enkerutyan ,

 

metsins hajuykov klineyi yerkqaraqatsy,

yev vorpes Avelatsum

 

Alpha jan >> " Diaspora is asset Armenian government can not afford to ignore or loos . sa yerekkormani e/ Hayastan@ aranst Spyurki & Spyurk@ Aranst HAyastani shat yerkar chen karor dimanal .

 

Barlis

[Guest]

Dear Boghos,

 

I have no principal arguments. If there is a mechanism addressing the above mentioned issues, and it can be efficiently implemented, I will be very supportive of it.

[Guest]

Citizenship of republic of Armenia is one thing and being Armenian another thing. It is not fair that a lot of not-hayastantsi's get political rights to influence the life of Hayastantsi's while they don't live in Hayastan.

 

And secondly they can allways go to republic of Armenia on pilgrimmage without having the citizenship of the republic of Armenia. And as I've heard the republic of Armenia is not reluctant in this respect

[Guest]

Dear MJ,

 

Could you please, if at all possible, give us an insight on how Armenians in Armenia are looking at this issue (if they are at all bothering with it at the moment )?

[Guest]

Dear Boghos,

 

I am the wrong person to answer this question. Have been out of Armenia for almost 10 years. Probably Berj may know better.

 

But I remember the discussions of the political circles, when the law on citizenship was being drafted.

 

At that time, the single most major treat to Armenia was considered to be ARF. This law was primarily motivated by the stance of ARF towards Armenia, and the opposite - the stance of the local political forces towards ARF.

[Guest]

Reading through all of your well informed opinions, I can't help feeling rather than thinking. I don't understand why someone in the diaspora who lives, works, and otherwise fully functions in their adopted country would possibly want to be a citizen of Armenia? Citizenship isn't a political toy, it's an identity. If there are armenians in the diaspora who feel so strongly about Armenia that they want to be armenian citizens, well, at the risk of sounding rash, let them move to armenia and fully integrate themselves into the fabric of that locale. However, if they prefer to identify with another country, let them do that!! Sometimes you just can't have your cake and eat it too, I'm afraid. I have absolutely no patience with those Armenians who are basically americans yet choose to spit the U.S. in the face and maintain their armenian citizneship!! Ugh!! At the risk of sounding like a redneck, "you don't like the States, go back to wherever it is you came from!!"

 

That's all I have to say on this

 

Gayane

P.S. Even if dual citizenship were possible, I wouldn't take it. Etkan ban.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
Dear Boghos,

... Probably Berj may know better.

---

Boghos,MJ,

In September 1999, during the Armenia-Diaspora conference, this issue was hot and in the context of general Armenian unification spirit in the air, that was the right time to start active discusions.

Presently, for the major part of population it's again in "who cares" category. With thousands leaving the country every month, it's even illogic. The government will surely face political fators while solving it, considering the existence of Armenian communities in countries with different interests.

I have no info on the current status of dual citizenship issue, but I came across some headlines recently.

[Guest]

Gayane,

 

At the risk of getting my head blown off for popping up out of the foxhole as a newbie around here, I want to say I am 100% in agreement with you.

[Guest]

Boghos-

 

I think it would more or less be a symbolic citizenship, nothing more than a fancy passport. How would you feel about that?

 

-Rich

[Guest]

Dear Rich,

 

I see no point in transforming Armenian citizenship in a sort of souvenir. Essentially I think that the government of Armenian should make it easy for people to immigrate there and acquire citizenship.

 

As Berj has posted this is not an issue of much importance in Armenia today given that we continue to see an exodus from the country, and people are much more worried about their daily lives rather than this "diasporan" issue.

 

However in the grand scheme of things I think it is important to deal with this question once and for all.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boghos:

As Berj has posted this is not an issue of much importance in Armenia today given that we continue to see an exodus from the country, and people are much more worried about their daily lives rather than this "diasporan" issue.

---

Boghos jan,

You got me wrong. All the diasporian issues are of a great importance to the population of Armenia. If we look at the composition of diaspora at present: almost 70% of Armenia's population has relatives abroad. And a large number it lives by support from their relatives abroad. So they realy care.

In 1999, despite of the fact that we were on the edge of a gorge, the discussions were very active. Since 1999 we made a long jump forward. We neen to get out.

All we need (is not love) is to follow the agenda, and the issue of dual citizenship will logically be included in this agenda.

[Guest]

Citizenship issue will pave the path of development for Armenia. Do we want to be like Israel or Greece. Both of them have powerful Diasporas, yet in Israel Diaspora plays a major role in decision-making process. However the Diaspora also made Israel a militant, aggressive country, which keeps local Jewish citizens in fear of their neighbors. In contrast to Israel, Greece has tried to eliminate the influence of its Diaspora. By doing that the country has significantly weakened it’s influence in the region. It tries to reconcile its differences with its neighbors and become a peaceful European nation. In its strategy Israel has annexed historical Jewish lands, yet Greece has lost half Cyprus, and has no means to lay claims to historical Greek lands of Smyrna or other west Anatolian settlements. So it’s a choice for Armenia, which path do we prefer. Both ways of developments have their advantages and disadvantages. Do we want to have a peaceful nation and keep our small republic, or do we want a republic that’s in constant wars with its neighbors, but will eventually expand its borders. Keep in mind that the size of the country is not indicative how powerful it is. Israel with its 20,000 sq km is more powerful than Greece with its 140,000 sq km. I’d like to hear some other views about this topic. Yet the power of the nation is not indicative how happy its citizens are.

[Guest]

PAN-ARMENIAN BODY PLANS TO SET UP ARMENIA-DIASPORA PARLIAMENT

Jul 21, 2000

 

Yerevan, 20th July: A meeting has been held between the Armenia-Diaspora coordination committee and the Armenian intelligentsia at the Academy of Sciences. The committee presented its programme of national unification, which envisages setting up an Armenian-wide organizational structure, the national parliament of Armenia-Diaspora.

 

The presidents of Armenia and the Nagornyy Artsax Republic, Catholicos of all Armenians and the Catholicos of the Great House of Cilicia, MPs of the national assemblies and members of the Armenian and NKR governments, representatives of committees of Armenia-Diaspora, representatives of all Church eparchies and representatives of political parties will be deputies of this parliament, which will be a supreme body coordinating Armenia-Diaspora relations.

[MosJan]

President Kocharian Says Armenia Has No Right to Ban Dual Citizenship

 

YEREVAN (Armenpress)--Armenian president Robert Kocharian said that this year alone, 470 former residents of Armenia lost their Armenian citizenship after becoming citizens of other countries. "The strength of the country is not only measured by the number of its permanent residents but also by the number of its citizens," he told Yerevan State University students and professors.

 

He argued in favor of lifting the constitutional ban on dual citizenship enacted in 1995, saying 70 percent of those leaving the country would likely retain their Armenian citizenship. "We are losing our citizens," he said.

 

But he also stressed that the government must first concentrate on what needs to be done to stop emigration, then think of bringing Armenians back to their homeland.

 

"A nation with such an extensive diaspora has no right to apply a ban on dual citizenship. We can regulate all questionable issues by laws to eradicate all concerns, such as the right of diaspora Armenians to vote and get elected to a public office in Armenia," Kocharian said. "I feel pain every time I have to sign documents revoking people's Armenian citizenship."

 

A package of constitutional amendments that will be put to the national referendum on November 27 lifts the ban on dual citizenship.

[gamavor]

Finally!

[MosJan]

PASSPORT OF RA IS NO TOY

 

“The adoption of dual citizenship for Armenia is like giving away our lands. It almost means to eliminate our statehood”, announced David Shahnazaryan today during the seminar organized by the Political Investigations Center “Agreement”.

 

Advocate Vardan Haroutyunyan represented the dangers awaiting un in case of eliminating the dual citizenship ban. He noted that it will give the Armenians living abroad the possibility to participate in the governing of our country as there is not citizen without suffrage. And the stipulation of suffrage of dual citizens will give them the possibility to interfere with the internal affairs of our country.

 

Head of the Political Investigations Center Rouben Mehrabyan noted that by means to dual citizenship Russia will be able to legally interfere with the internal affairs of our country.

 

Generally, the complaints of the main part of reporters were especially about RF. For example, chief editor of the newspaper “Aravot” Aram Abrahamyan announced that if the dual citizens have the right to be elected, the majority of the RA Parliament will be formed by the RF citizens who can made a decision to build a cosmodrome in Moscow at the expense of Armenian tax-payers.

 

Aram Abrahamyan announced that the dual citizenship clause stretches a hand to the Armenians of the Diaspora, and he is against doing this at the expense of the citizens of Armenia. Besides, he announced that those people who left Armenia in different times, must not have the same rights as the citizens of Armenia.

 

And advocate Vardan Haroutyunyan noted that the expression “Armenia is the homeland of Armenians” is one of purest nationalism.

And ex-mayor of Yerevan Vahagn Khachatryan noted that dual citizenship is not a good thing, and as soon as the Armenians from the Diaspora learn that their sons must serve in the RA army and they must pay taxes, they do not “dream” of becoming a citizen of Armenia. “The RA passport is not a toy they want to play with. If they are citizens of Armenia, they must renounce other citizenships and come to Armenia”, Aram Abrahamyan said.

 

Politician Stepan Safaryan mentioned that he sees the danger of Armenians leaving their homeland with the adoption of dual citizenship.

[MosJan]

«DUAL CITIZENSHIP WILL NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF ECONOMY»

 

According to economist Tatoul Manaseryan the adoption of Constitutional amendments in present conditions in unacceptable. As for the dual citizenship institute, the economist claims that it will not affect the development of the economy of the country.

 

«Dual citizenship will not contribute to the growth of investments and tax payments unless the field is healthy. The Armenians from the Diaspora who realize economic activity in Armenia do not care about the adoption of dual citizenship. Only the formation of an atmosphere of mutual trust and the guarantees for equal competition conditions for everyone can contribute to the development of economy».

According to Tatoul Manaseryan dual citizenship is necessary for those Armenians who left their country but still want to have connections with it. In any case the economist finds the adoption of the law dangerous as, «Not everyone wishing to get dual citizenship will be kind and sincere in their aims».