Azat Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Prayer Doesn't Aid Recovery, Study Finds Effect on Healing of Strangers at Distance After Heart-Bypass Surgery Examined By Rob Stein Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, March 31, 2006; A06 Praying for other people to recover from an illness is ineffective, according to the largest, best-designed study to examine the power of prayer to heal strangers at a distance. The study of more than 1,800 heart-bypass patients found that those who had people praying for them had as many complications as those who did not. In fact, one group of patients who knew they were the subject of prayers fared worse. The long-awaited results, the latest in a series of studies that have not found any benefit from "distant" or "intercessory" prayer, came as a blow to those hoping scientific research would validate the popular notion that people can influence others' health, even if the sick do not know that someone is praying for them. The researchers cautioned that the study was not designed to test the existence of God or the benefit of other types of prayer, such as praying for oneself or praying at the bedside of friends or relatives. They also did not rule out that other types of distant prayer may be effective for other types of patients. "No one single study is ever going to provide an answer," said Jeffery A. Dusek of Harvard Medical School, who helped lead the study being published in the April 4 issue of the American Heart Journal. Although many studies have suggested that praying for oneself may reduce stress, research into praying for others who may not know they are the subject of prayers has been much more controversial. Several studies that claimed to show a benefit have been criticized as deeply flawed. And several of the most recent findings have found no benefit. The new $2.4 million study, funded primarily by the John Templeton Foundation, was designed to overcome some of those shortcomings. Dusek and his colleagues divided 1,802 bypass patients at six hospitals into three groups. Two groups were uncertain whether they would be the subject of prayers. The third was told they would definitely be prayed for. The researchers recruited two Catholic groups and one Protestant group to pray "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for 14 days for each patient, beginning the night before the surgery, using the patient's first name and the first initial of the last name. Over the next month, the two groups that were uncertain whether they were the subject of prayers fared virtually the same, with about 52 percent of patients experiencing complications regardless of whether they were the subject of prayers. Surprisingly, 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for experienced complications. Because the most common complication was an irregular heartbeat, researchers speculated that knowing they were chosen to receive prayers may have inadvertently put the patients under increased stress. "Did the patients think, 'I am so sick they had to call in the prayer team?' " said Charles Bethea of the Integris Heart Hospital at Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City, who helped conduct the study. Skeptics said the study should put to rest the notion that distant prayer has any effect. "I would hope that these results, combined with similar recent findings, would encourage scientists to stick to science and stop dabbling in the supernatural," said Bruce Flamm of the University of California at Irvine. Even some supporters of incorporating more spirituality into medicine said they hope the findings will put an end to such research. "It's time now to redirect resources towards supporting studies that try to understand how religious faith influences people's health and well-being through understandable mechanisms," said Harold Koenig of Duke University. But proponents of such research said the work is important because so many people believe in prayer. "I would hate to have premature closure based on a handful of studies," said Marilyn J. Schlitz of the Institute of Noetic Sciences in Petaluma, Calif. "We just don't know enough about this to close the door." The findings are unlikely to change the minds of the faithful, several pastors said. "We welcome and appreciate the involvement of scientists researching faith," said Rob Brendle, associate pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs. "But this is just one study. We believe wholeheartedly that prayer changes things. So many of us have experienced that in our lives." © 2006 The Washington Post Company Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Azat, I will not talk about if whatever or not prayers work but about the study in question. This supposed meta-analysis is totally flowed and uses a methodology which would only work if prayers are about requesting a god. People are there with no interaction with the subject, the subjects don't know who is praying for them, those praying had no contact in anyway with the subject. It is like measuring the efficiancy of a pill without swallowing it. There is no way to know if prayers work because a proper protocole would be to compare what would be considered as a placebo with another what is considered to be placebo. Such studies are just a waste of time and energy, they should rather spent them on trying to measure the efficiancy of medications. Prayers are free, they don't harm anying, they give faith to people, while there are pharmacetical industries that won't report side effects in their studies will pump the efficiancy of their meds and when a study doesn't show a significant efficiancy they don't publish it. Meds cost, they can harm people. Many things from some religious zealouts disgust me, but prayers are not harming anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armjan Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 most things are percieved to be what they are. so if prayers are percieved to help someone while they are awaiting an outcome, then they have served their purpose as i see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 most things are percieved to be what they are. so if prayers are percieved to help someone while they are awaiting an outcome, then they have served their purpose as i see it. Agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 I think they should study the relation between eating pickles and whether it impacts the chances of winning the state lottery next. Hey, after all, if my perception is going to impact my chances of winning the lottery, I want to know because I'll go get 14 pickle jars RIGHT NOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 (edited) Sip & his pickles << better Edited April 13, 2006 by sSebB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted April 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Azat, I will not talk about if whatever or not prayers work but about the study in question. This supposed meta-analysis is totally flowed and uses a methodology which would only work if prayers are about requesting a god. People are there with no interaction with the subject, the subjects don't know who is praying for them, those praying had no contact in anyway with the subject. It is like measuring the efficiancy of a pill without swallowing it. There is no way to know if prayers work because a proper protocole would be to compare what would be considered as a placebo with another what is considered to be placebo. Such studies are just a waste of time and energy, they should rather spent them on trying to measure the efficiancy of medications. Prayers are free, they don't harm anying, they give faith to people, while there are pharmacetical industries that won't report side effects in their studies will pump the efficiancy of their meds and when a study doesn't show a significant efficiancy they don't publish it. Meds cost, they can harm people. Many things from some religious zealouts disgust me, but prayers are not harming anyone. I think you missed the entire point of the study Domino. When a catastrophe happens, the church asks its parishioners to pray for the "hurt". The point of the study was that praying for a person you have no connection to does not work. Thats it. It is useless to pray for others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 This is not a very accurate test for the question posed. A cleaner way of testing is to separate the population studied into 2 groups where none of the groups knows that they are being prayed for. Then one group would be prayed for and the other group would not. After that the effect would be measured and compared for the 2 groups. This would prevent any secondary effects coming into picture, such as some patients being worried that they are more sick than others, as it is mentioned in the above article. Maybe the patients that didn't know they were being prayed or not also had some thoughts that affected their health. Simply knowing that you are part of an experiment could affect the health in both ways, depending on the individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 (edited) Here is a related article, incidentally an Armenian is involved Spirituality Can Soothe Body and Soul http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20060407/hl_hs...othebodyandsoul By Serena Gordon HealthDay Reporter FRIDAY, April 7 (HealthDay News) -- To stay healthy, you probably know that you need to eat right, get plenty of exercise and rest, and avoid bad habits such as smoking. But, it might surprise you to learn that what you believe in can have a big impact on your health and longevity. "There have been a lot of studies, and more are coming out all of the time, that show how patients with strong spirituality can improve their health from a variety of chronic conditions, like hypertension, heart disease, recovery from surgery and more," said Dr. Michael Torosian, a surgical oncologist at Fox Chase Cancer Center in Philadelphia, and co-author of the book, Spirit to Heal. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to believe in God or regularly attend a church, synagogue or mosque to reap health benefits. "Spirituality is where people find meaning in their life. It's something higher than themselves, though not necessarily attached to religion," said Patricia Megregian, a board-certified chaplain and executive director of the Integrative Medicine Initiative at Children's Memorial Hospital in Chicago. "Spirituality is what brings you peace and safety. It could be God or Goddess, or nature. Some people feel it with a beautiful sunset. Some people get it from meditation. For some, it's from their community. It's a feeling that you're connected to something greater, something larger than myself. For some that comes from their family," she said. Wherever your spirituality or a positive outlook on life comes from, research indicates there are real health benefits: - People with high levels of religious beliefs or spirituality have lower cortisol responses. Cortisol is a hormone the body releases in response to stress. - Positive thinking produces nearly a 30 percent drop in perception of pain. - Spirituality and the practice of religion have recently been associated with a slower progression of Alzheimer's disease. - Those who regularly attend organized religious activities may live longer than those who don't. Regular participation lowers mortality rate by about 12 percent a year. - People undergoing cardiac rehabilitation feel more confident and perceive greater improvements in their physical abilities if they have a strong faith. - Increased levels of spirituality and religious faith may help substance abusers kick their habit. What's not known is exactly how spirituality or a positive outlook can cause these changes. According to Torosian, there are two popular theories. The first is known as the relaxation response. When the body is relaxed, your heart rate, blood pressure and breathing rate all go down, which decreases the body's stress response. The other theory is that spirituality can affect immune-system function. "Spirituality, faith, church attendance improves immune function in ways that can be measured, like an increase in white blood cells," he said. "When it comes to health, when the body feels safe and is at ease, the nervous system is able to quiet and be more normal. Then the immune system is able to function better," said Megregian. "When the body is safe and feels safe, all of its other functions can help combat disease." Not everyone is ready to endorse the notion of spirituality as medicine. U.S. researchers involved with the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP), the largest review to examine the effects of prayer provided by others for a patient, evaluated the impact of such prayer on patients recovering from coronary artery bypass graft surgery. The results, released March 30, found that such "third-party" prayer had no impact on patient outcomes. Megregian said it's important to not "wait till you're in the foxhole" to find your spirituality. She suggested doing whatever you can to increase your awareness of your spirituality by using what helps you, such as meditation, yoga, Tai Chi, walking in nature, or attending religious services. Torosian agreed. "This is a free resource we all tend to take for granted until something major, like a heart attack, happens. But it should also be used to promote wellness." He added, "As a surgeon, I see cancer patients all the time trying to deal with a devastating diagnosis. Those with a strong faith seem to do much better and handle it better. Spirituality is something that can help all the way from promoting wellness to helping with recovery." Edited April 13, 2006 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 I think it is absolutely crucial here to make a distinction between personal spirituality and affects of prayers by strangers. I think the thesis here is that prayer doesn't impact others directly. If you are spiritual and find that prayers by others helps you in some way, that is a very different story because that is personalization of the gesture of the prayer (and then the impact of those feelings in your brain on your well being). The two are very different things. One suggests some magical properties of prayer that can transfer from strangers to the subjects of pray (goes without saying that I find it rediculous). The other has to do with the connection between personal thought and personal well being (which I don't find rediculous at all). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 (edited) The two are very different things. The two are different, but not very different. I propose the following experiment. 1) Take a population with the same medical condition. Include people with different levels of faith as well as non spiritual people. Include different ages and sexes. 2) Divide the population into 4 comparable groups where all faith levels, ages and sexes are equally represented 3) Separate the groups from each other so that one group does not know what is happening to the other, and that they are not in contact 4) Rigorously select altruistic people who a. are objectively known to care about others (e.g. participate in charitable acts, donate organs, etc.) b. routinely pray for others in addition to their public activities, in other words they have a firm belief in prayers. Such a selection will assure that they will pray sincerely from the heart, rather than the mind. In other words, they will actually PRAY and not merely WISH. 5) None of the groups is told that they are being studied. This will prevent any other thought effects Group 1 is prayed for without being told about it Group 2 is not prayed for, and does not know that others are being prayed for Group 3 is prayed for and is told about it but is not told that this is an experiment Group 4 is not prayed for and is told that they are the 'non-prayed-for' group in an experiment 6) All other conditions are maintained reasonably equal Throughout the prayer period the patients' medical conditions are reproted at different intervals. The results are compared as prayers and treatments progress in the following way 1) group by group 2) within each group between faith levels, between genders and between age groups 3) combination of the above I don't think anyone can find a flaw in such a setup (perhaps with further refinements and inclusion of other conditions). Let the results be determined by a rigorous, accurate and objective study. Otherwise, people are saying what they like. Edited April 14, 2006 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 For samples in such cases will require crossover testing, which in this cases is not applicable. The two are different, but not very different. I propose the following experiment. 1) Take a population with the same medical condition. Include people with different levels of faith as well as non spiritual people. Include different ages and sexes. 2) Divide the population into 4 comparable groups where all faith levels, ages and sexes are equally represented 3) Separate the groups from each other so that one group does not know what is happening to the other, and that they are not in contact 4) Rigorously select altruistic people who a. are objectively known to care about others (e.g. participate in charitable acts, donate organs, etc.) b. routinely pray for others in addition to their public activities, in other words they have a firm belief in prayers. Such a selection will assure that they will pray sincerely from the heart, rather than the mind. In other words, they will actually PRAY and not merely WISH. 5) None of the groups is told that they are being studied. This will prevent any other thought effects Group 1 is prayed for without being told about it Group 2 is not prayed for, and does not know that others are being prayed for Group 3 is prayed for and is told about it but is not told that this is an experiment Group 4 is not prayed for and is told that they are the 'non-prayed-for' group in an experiment 6) All other conditions are maintained reasonably equal Throughout the prayer period the patients' medical conditions are reproted at different intervals. The results are compared as prayers and treatments progress in the following way 1) group by group 2) within each group between faith levels, between genders and between age groups 3) combination of the above I don't think anyone can find a flaw in such a setup (perhaps with further refinements and inclusion of other conditions). Let the results be determined by a rigorous, accurate and objective study. Otherwise, people are saying what they like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted April 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Sasun,we dont know the details of the experiment, however i imagine it is not MUCH further from your description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Sasun,we dont know the details of the experiment, however i imagine it is not MUCH further from your description. The study was a sort of a meta-analysis, that was actually supposed to mesure what Sasun want measure, and that's its weakness I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Just to make me happy, once those groups are set up, we should write the names of the people in two of those groups and sent it to space on the suttle. One group should know about it while the other doesn't. Maybe we'll find a statistically significant correlation between names being shot into space and health conditions. The point being, there are billions of experiments we can set up. The important question is why bother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 (edited) By the way, just to clarify, I don't mean this as any sort of insult to those who pray even though I don't think they are doing anything meaningful. My point in this thread is why do we even care if someone wants to pray for others? People still read astrology and fortune cookies and talk to psychics who can converse with the dead so why single out prayer (that might even do good to calm the nerves of those who do the praying and give them hope) and try to expose it? It might be more fruitful to start with the simple things like how a generic paragraph in a news paper that is circulated to thousands of people can't possibly predict anything meaningful about a single person based on when they were born. Edited April 14, 2006 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Just to make me happy, once those groups are set up, we should write the names of the people in two of those groups and sent it to space on the suttle. One group should know about it while the other doesn't. Maybe we'll find a statistically significant correlation between names being shot into space and health conditions. The point being, there are billions of experiments we can set up. The important question is why bother Yes, of course, space shuttles were built by cynics who didn't bother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 People still read astrology and fortune cookies and talk to psychics who can converse with the dead so why single out prayer (that might even do good to calm the nerves of those who do the praying and give them hope) and try to expose it? It isn't something that can be exposed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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