Van Cats, Most Beautiful Most Elegant

[Z'areh]

I did not want to advertise the more than a hundred sites talking about the Van Cat (we have spoken about this in length some time ago), none of them does even mention the A word, they all claim to be T**kish.

 

 

As to we having borrowed from the Assyrians, the jury is still out as to who is the borrower and the borrowee. All evidence point to PIE "Kato", and you know who the original authors of PIE are. The reason it is generally assumed that we borrowed is, once again generalization by some European aermenologists who had concluded that Armenians are customarily borrowers rather than borrowees.

 

 

OK now that were are here!

 

 

For the first part, you have to realize that as a breeders of Cats the official name has to be Turkish Van, and most breeders don't really care about the "hidden" history of a perticular breed for they are in the business of selling cats. But there are a few (and the number is growing) that give Armenians credit for having known the value of these cats before anyone else "discovered" them.

 

Please click on the following website and you'll know what I mean.

 

http://www.tv-cats-aghtamar.nl/

 

This is a Dutch lady who goes out of her way to advertise the Armenianess of these cats. Check in English the History and Introduction sections....check the names of the cats also.

 

 

 

Now for the second part, what is PIE???

 

It is interesting that you mention Borrowers and Borrowees, because this is an issue that even Adjarian touches upon in his "Armadagan Pararan". According to him the word describing a cat is remarkebly spread out among many diverse nations with little linguistic connections. He proposes that the Armenians could have gotten it from the Celts and by coming to Asia Minor spread it throughout the Caucases. But the Nubians had already called this animal "Kadis" so it could have also reached us through the Assyrians who called it "Katu". So, you are right in saying the Jury still being out, but it is not inconceivable that a strong Assyria could not have had a strong cultural influence on the Armenians, I think such influences are normal. look at our Soviet reality and see how much, in such a relatively short time, our language became mutated and deformed with so many Russian words.

Edited November 30, 2005 by Z'areh

[Takoush]

Zareh:

 

I thought that Vani Gadou link was sooo cute. I love cats as I have a smart and a cute Siamese cat.

 

Until I got him I never liked cats; now because of him I love cats.

[Arpa]

======

OK now that were are here!Now for the second part, what is PIE???

=====

 

It is interesting that you mention Borrowers and Borrowees, because this is an issue that even Adjarian touches upon in his "Armadagan Pararan". According to him the word describing a cat is remarkebly spread out among many diverse nations with little linguistic connections. He proposes that the Armenians could have gotten it from the Celts and by coming to Asia Minor spread it throughout the Caucases. But the Nubians had already called this animal "Kadis" so it could have also reached us through the Assyrians who called it "Katu". So, you are right in saying the Jury still being out, but it is not inconceivable that a strong Assyria could not have had a strong cultural influence on the Armenians, I think such influences are normal. look at our Soviet reality and see how much, in such a relatively short time, our language became mutated and deformed with so many Russian words.

THank you Zareh,

 

Note: Perhaps the mods would see it fit to merge this thread with one of the previous , such as The Real Van Cat below found under the said title under the general subject topic Other.

 

As to PIE, don’t show this to Sip. He may be looking for a dessert after his huge barbeque. :)

 

It means ProtoIndoEuropean. You’ll find many references in the language section using “proto” as your keyword.

You may have noticed that in many monographs Ajarian uses the abbreviation հնխ, հնդեւրոպական նախալեզու, which according to many is the “mother tongue” of all IE languages.

 

 

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=9785&hl=van+cats

 

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=4645&hl=van+cats

 

You are right, you may have read the entire monograph about կատու, that it is first seen in the Nubian as “kadis”, we also know that cats are prominently displayed in Egyptian culture, yet, once again Ajarian does dismiss its (the word) generally accepted Egyptian origin. As to the Celtic, once again you will notice that Ajarian sheds doubt as well. What he is in fact saying, that the first mention , Nubian, the word was applied to the young of many animals to mean”pup” or “kitten” if you will. He goes further to question saying that the Cellts may have been the first to use the word as a proper noun applied to the cat, yet he ends it with this sentence; “ Այս կարծիքը սակայն ամէնքից ընդունուած չէ եւ կան տարբեր ենթադրութիւններ“

 

However, as above I would rather this thread be moved or merged with the above so we won’t repeat what has been said before. The reason why I did not delve deep into the subject in the other thread. I only used it as a model to show how our culture is hijacked without even a hint or proper credit.

Edited November 30, 2005 by Arpa

[Z'areh]

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=4645&hl=van+cats

 

“ Այս կարծիքը սակայն ամէնքից ընդունուած չէ եւ կան տարբեր ենթադրութիւններ“

 

.

 

Arpa, Adjarian simply is saying no one really knows and that there are more than one ենթադրութիւններ.

 

He himself says that it is quite surprising how this word travelled through so many cultures and peoples.

 

 

as for the links for previous discussions of Van cats, it is too bad that I missed all that, because I find Bellthecat's facts are not quite right, they are misleading at best. A true Van cat MUST have the Auburn markings and only a few amongst them have odd eyed colours. The markings have to be redish auburn head markings and a tail in similar colour while the body mainly white but can have auburn spots here and there. They are the cousins of the Angora cats but shorter hair, there are the odd all-white Vans but they are the exception rather than the rule. These are not man-made breed such as the Siamese and many other breeds, these are naturally selected cats bread by nature only, Armenians did not breed these cats, they were there for thousands of years, that's what make these cats so special, and being a natural breed, they come with all the quarkiness. It is true that Armenians valued these cats and gave gifts to Russian aristocrats. Apparently there is a 19th century painting of the Duchess of Crimea sititng on a chair with a Van cat on her lap.

[Z'areh]

Zareh:

 

I thought that Vani Gadou link was sooo cute. I love cats as I have a smart and a cute Siamese cat.

 

Until I got him I never liked cats; now because of him I love cats.

 

Anahid, this lady keeps in touch with Armenians in Yerevan and is well versed in Armenian history, and her website reflects this connection.

 

My first cat experience was Siamese also, (my wife's cats), then when they died I suggested Van cats.But we

had the hardest time in finding a breeder, after intense search we found one in Seattle, Washington, that was 17 years ago, now there are a few more Van breeders in the States and none in Canada. Two years ago my two Vans died and now I have two baby Vans and they are absolutely adorable.....and they have an added sentimental value as they represent a piece of my homeland in my hands.

Edited December 1, 2005 by Z'areh

[Azat]

Z'areh how much do van cats cost in the US?

[Takoush]

Z'areh how much do van cats cost in the US?

Why Azat? You want to buy a Vani gadou now?

Edited December 1, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Arpa]

Z'areh how much do van cats cost in the US?

 

Azat, why do want a cat?

To make gateau or kata?

I thought you were a vegertarian.

Me bad, bad!

 

:hammer:

[Z'areh]

Z'areh how much do van cats cost in the US?

 

Hi Azat, in the US a Van cat goes for $500.00, add to that the additional air fair ( which is about $100-200) if you are far from the breeder.

I think there could some breeders in California, there was this Armenian gentleman in LA who was placing Vans from a broken-up relationship of a couple who were into breeding Vans (our original breeder) in Seattle.

 

I'll try to find his name and coordinates.

 

 

Arpa, you bad bad person

[neko]

A true Van cat MUST have the Auburn markings and only a few amongst them have odd eyed colours. The markings have to be redish auburn head markings and a tail in similar colour while the body mainly white but can have auburn spots here and there. They are the cousins of the Angora cats but shorter hair, there are the odd all-white Vans but they are the exception rather than the rule. These are not man-made breed such as the Siamese and many other breeds, these are naturally selected cats bread by nature only, Armenians did not breed these cats, they were there for thousands of years, that's what make these cats so special, and being a natural breed, they come with all the quarkiness.

 

This is the sort of "Turkish Van" propaganda that I hope to counter with my request here: http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=97...id=183564

[Aubépine]

They are cats afterall. No Turkish or Armenian prefixes are necessary. Are we are going to claim other animals as well? They are called Van cats here pure and simple. The Van cats in Turkey don't have any Auburn markings.

 

PS: Which ones are the real Van cats by the way?

[neko]

PS: Which ones are the real Van cats by the way?

 

The real ones are the all-white ones in Van. Not the non-white ones that are sold by cat breeders in Europe and America.

 

They are cats afterall. No Turkish or Armenian prefixes are necessary. Are we are going to claim other animals as well? They are called Van cats here pure and simple. The Van cats in Turkey don't have any Auburn markings.

 

Yes, that's true, I agree. But it won't be if breeders of "Turkish Van" cats get their way - either the Van Cat will be exterminated because it does not follow the breeder's definition of what a "Turkish Van" should be, or they will be relegated to being a sub-breed of the "Turkish Van", and called a "Turkish Van Kedisi".

 

Basically, it seems that in the mid-1950s a couple of English women who were cat breeders brought back a pair of cats, one of which they got in the Van region. That cat was not a genuine Van Cat, but in order to enhance the financial value of their offspring, they were presented as actually being Van Cats (and called, officially, first of all "Turkish Cats", and then, later on, "Turkish Vans"). Now, after 50 years of that propaganda, the true Van Cat has reached the stage where its whole history has been appropriated by "Turkish Van" breeders and its very existence denied. It's curious, but in a way what those cat breeders in America and Europe have done to the Van Cat is similar to what Turkey has tried to do to the history of Armenians in Van - deny their existence and take over their history. That's why it is unforgivable for Z'areh to be actually believing what he posted.

[neko]

BTW, it is not Turks who are calling the cats "Turkish", it is the cat breeders in America and Europe who are giving them an "ethnicity"!

[Pergrouhi]

Arpa, Adjarian simply is saying no one really knows and that there are more than one ենթադրութիւններ.

 

He himself says that it is quite surprising how this word travelled through so many cultures and peoples.

 

 

as for the links for previous discussions of Van cats, it is too bad that I missed all that, because I find Bellthecat's facts are not quite right, they are misleading at best. A true Van cat MUST have the Auburn markings and only a few amongst them have odd eyed colours. The markings have to be redish auburn head markings and a tail in similar colour while the body mainly white but can have auburn spots here and there. They are the cousins of the Angora cats but shorter hair, there are the odd all-white Vans but they are the exception rather than the rule. These are not man-made breed such as the Siamese and many other breeds, these are naturally selected cats bread by nature only, Armenians did not breed these cats, they were there for thousands of years, that's what make these cats so special, and being a natural breed, they come with all the quarkiness. It is true that Armenians valued these cats and gave gifts to Russian aristocrats. Apparently there is a 19th century painting of the Duchess of Crimea sititng on a chair with a Van cat on her lap.

I wonder who is the painter. Can I found a picture of this painting somewhere.