The Names

[Arvestaked]

What were the names of the two guys that killed Enver and Jemal? I'm curious and I'm sure someone here knows.

[Takoush]

What were the names of the two guys that killed Enver and Jemal? I'm curious and I'm sure someone here knows.

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Although I have read the names a while ago, but Soghomon Tehlirian always sticks in my mind more so, because he killed Talaat *****.

 

Gemal ***** was killed in 1922 in Tiflis by an Armenian man by the name of Dzaghikian.

 

Enver ***** was killed in 1922 in a battle in Tajikistan by an Armenain. But don't know the name.

 

I copied this information from another section in HyeForum edited by a member by the name of "espanol".

[DominO123]

Enver ***** was killed in 1922 in a battle in Tajikistan by an Armenain.  But don't know

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I doubt it.

[Takoush]

I doubt it.

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Arvestaked and QuebecR, It'll take me sometime but I have to dig into it to find out about the exact names.

[Armen]

I doubt it.

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QB, how about this:

 

Enver ***** was killed in 1921 in a battle in Uzbekistan by an Armenain.

[DominO123]

QB, how about this:

 

Enver ***** was killed in 1921 in a battle in Uzbekistan by an Armenain.

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Armen, those are only claims, Enver died attempting to push still his megalomanic pan-Turanist dreams. How on Earth an Armenian in Tehlirian way could decide to track him in his excurtions in Tajikistan, Uzbekistan etc., to kill him whil he is leading an Army to advance through Turan?

Edited September 4, 2005 by QueBeceR

[phantom22]

In all my reading I have NEVER seen anywhere where it states that Enver was killed by an Armenian. It is always stated that he died in battle. Let us please stick with the historical facts. Domino, an expert on these matters, has not ever seen a reference that it was an Armenian. Let us separate myth from reality. Edited September 4, 2005 by phantom22

[phantom22]

Anahid,

 

Take anything you read anywhere on the internet "with a grain of salt."

You must go back and confirm everything in accepted sources.

 

In my work, I hear all kinds of hearsay. Invariably the truth changes over time, not necessarily maliciously. You must confirm ANYTHING historical you read on the internet if it is not from accepted sources.

[Armen]

Armen, those are only claims, Enver died attempting to push still his megalomanic pan-Turanist dreams. How on Earth an Armenian in Tehlirian way could decide to track him in his excurtions in Tajikistan, Uzbekistan etc., to kill him whil he is leading an Army to advance through Turan?

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QB, I was trying to keep "the Armenian" as the only known fact, along with "Enver *****", in that story. But I guess I was wrong.

 

However, there were Armenians in the Bolshevik Red Army's Turkistan military region, which operated in present Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. Not only Armenians were part of regular Army but also the newly formed Bolshevik secret intelligence, which was later called NKVD. The legend says he (the Armenian) served in one of the regiments fighting against the Basmach movement, which were the former Turkistan elite landowners who were ousted from their lands by the incoming Bolshevik government. This "Basmach movement" was a part of Enver's pan-Turanist idea. The legend further says that the Armenian recognized Enver (this IS the unbeliavable part) and killed him.

Edited September 4, 2005 by Armen

[DominO123]

QB, I was trying to keep "the Armenian" as the only known fact, along with "Enver *****", in that story. But I guess I was wrong.

 

However, there were Armenians in the Bolshevik Red Army's Turkistan military region, which operated in present Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. Not only Armenians were part of regular Army but also the newly formed Bolshevik secret intelligence, which was later called NKVD. The legend says he (the Armenian) served in one of the regiments fighting against the Basmach movement, which were the former Turkistan elite landowners who were ousted from their lands by the incoming Bolshevik government. This "Basmach movement" was a part of Enver's pan-Turanist idea. The legend further says that the Armenian recognized Enver (this IS the unbeliavable part) and killed him.

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Envers died about the same time his army was crashed, true it could have been an Armenian, but it could have been a Georgian or Russian etc. too. The fact that Envers death was the result of his failure is a strong argument against the "Armenian hero and avenger" theses, because in this cases, an Armenian killing him would be part of the process that led to the destruction of Envers army. What Enver did was plain and simple suicide. Where I don't buy that by "chance" the killer was an Armenian, or that he was killed by an Armenian "avanger," is that if that was the cases, his name would have been recorded as the man that killed Enver. But I have yet to find a conclusive name of that person. Who paraded claiming how he killed Enver?

[Armen]

Who paraded claiming how he killed Enver?

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My grand-grandpa always did after a cup or two. He was a well known anti-semite

[DominO123]

I've checked Dadrians works, the only Armenian implication he talks about is that Agabekof, an Armenian operative of the Communist Secret Service is believed having tracked him, and that he died "during the ensuing fight." He doesn't say who actually killed him, he rather write: "Though the literature on Enver's end is imprecise,..."

[DominO123]

My grand-grandpa always did after a cup or two. He was a well known anti-semite

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So we have a name afteral, don't we?

[phantom22]

My grand-grandpa always did after a cup or two. He was a well known anti-semite

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Armen,

 

Why do you proudly state this? It is wrong and is, frankly, a very stupid thing to do. You are playing into Turkish hands. Enver was an apostate Jew, a Doenmeh.

What he did was as a Turk, not a Jew. Meanwhile Morgenthau, another Jew, was trying to save us.

[Verginne]

Armen,

 

Why do you proudly state this? It is wrong and is, frankly, a very stupid thing to do. You are playing into Turkish hands. Enver was an apostate Jew, a Doenmeh.

What he did was as a Turk, not a Jew. Meanwhile Morgenthau, another Jew, was trying to save us.

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Why shouldn't he proidly state what he did? Seems like the old guy knows something, something that some people would rather put a bag on their head and ignore. Just ask the old people, they know the truth, no matter what some of you have been brainwashed to believe. Stop defending the indefensible. All in the name of what? The time is going to come when you're going to have to decide what's important TRUTH or being PC, because your penchant for PC is going to make you grasp for straws and get nowhere until the second coming. You will never see justice.

 

Enver was a jew, acting as a jew. In whose interest is it to minimize or distort historical FACTS? People need to get out of this robotic programming turks. turks.turks.turks.turks.turks.turks.turks.turks.turks.turks. NO, sorry, they did NOT act alone. There were others involved in the AG besides turks.

 

Morgenthau was more interested in trying to work for the zionists, not save Armenians.

 

Now tell me that something on cilicia.com should be forbidden here:

 

London Times Correspondent Says He Wasted Energy of Zionists

 

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Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES. LONDON, Friday, Oct. 8,--The Times published a long account from a correspondent, of the American massacres in which he says:

 

"Attempts of the American Ambassador to procure some alleviation of the lot of the Armenians have thus far proved unsuccessful. Mr. Morgenthau, in the opinion of good observers, has wasted too much diplomatic energy on behalf of the Zionists of Palestine, who were in no danger of massacre, to have any force to spare.

 

Talaat and Bedri simply own that persecuting Armenians amuses them and turn a death ear to American pleadings.

 

"German and Austro-Hungarian residents in Turkey at first approved of the punishment of Armenian 'traitors' but the methods of the Turkish extremists have sickened even Prussian stomachs. True the Jewish Baron von Openheim, now in Syria, has been preaching massacre and German Consular officials at Aleppo and Alexandretta have followed suit perhaps with the idea of planting German colonists in the void left by the disappearance of the Armenians when the war is over.

 

"But the German Government has grown nervous. On Aug. 31 the German and Austro-Hungarian Ambassadors protested to the Grand Vizier against the massacre of Armenians and demanded a written communication to the effect that neither of their Governments had any connection with these crimes. Turkey has so as far given her Allies a certificate of unblemished character and the bestowal of the order Pour le Merite on Enver ***** by the Kaiser is not likely to give the impression that Germany is in earnest."

 

The correspondent also says:

 

"The sale by Bedriss police of Armenian children of both sexes to the keepers of disorderly houses and Turks of bad moral character has provoked protests in Constantinople.

 

"The object of the conversion of children reported from some districts and the very general sale of women and girls appear to be political. Foreigners believe Tallat has countenanced these crimes with the object of breaking up the strong social structure of the Armenian community in Turkey."

 

 

 

 

 

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Retrieved from "http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Criticises_Mr._Morgenthau_-nyt19151008b"

Edited September 5, 2005 by Verginne

[phantom22]

"Verginne,"

 

So now you are criticizing Morgenthau for using up his political capital helping Zionists?

 

You have a one-track mind.

 

OK give us proof that, as you stated, "Enver was a Jew, acting as a Jew."

 

What do you have to back up your statement?

[Verginne]

"Verginne,"

 

So now you are criticizing Morgenthau for using up his political capital helping Zionists?

 

You have a one-track mind.

 

OK give us proof that, as you stated, "Enver was a Jew, acting as a Jew."

 

What do you have to back up your statement?

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Was he or was he not a jew??? A simple yes or no will do.

[phantom22]

Enver was a Doenmeh, an apostate Jew of a sect that the Jews did not consider to be their own.

 

Where do you have proof that he was acting as a Jew and not as a Turk?

[DominO123]

Doenmeh is as much Jew as Alawi is Muslim. It is laughable how any insignificant subjects could turn to "lets talk about Jews." Edited September 5, 2005 by QueBeceR

[phantom22]

"Verginne" also known as (AKA) "Anoush, AKA "Armenian Revenge," AKA "AR" brings this thread to "let's talk about Jews."

 

We should be talking about Armenians, which what we do until he/she/it hijacks the these threads to a discussion of Jews.

 

There is an Armenian nation that has to be developed into a compact economic powerhouse. There is the matter of justice in the matter of the Genocide.

 

Yet the discussion is sidetracked to discuss Jews.

 

This time it was Armen who brought this thread into a Jewish discussion.

[Armen]

This time it was Armen who brought this thread into a Jewish discussion.

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A joke about Jews is not yet "a discussion". It is just that the types like you and Verginne take is as a duty to "discuss" it until you faint every time "Jew" appears anywhere.

[phantom22]

Armen,

 

You were joking about your grandfather boasting when he is drunk that he killed Enver because he was an avid anti-Semite? That is a joke?

 

I know ALL the facts about the triumvirate's background. No one is pulling any wool over my eyes. Yet your comments are in VERY poor taste. One of the Turkish MIT agents who monitors this and ALL other Armenian sites has probably documented your comments and will be using them as cannon-fodder against our interests.

 

You can discuss Jews all you want, EVEN the involvement of hidden Jews at the pinnacle of those responsible for the Genocide, and I do not "faint" as you say. I am concerned only when you have gone over the line with your comment.

 

Armen, how old are you? I would bet that you are under 30.

[mamigon]

Phantom-

You seem to actually have a grip in reality. Surely you must have figured out by now that there is a sizeable chunk of Armenians who are so paralyzed by their powerlessness or their frustration or what you will that it will always come back to the Jews. Whenever a Jew -- apostate or orthodox -- does anything against an Armenian it is ALL JEWS acting against all Armenians. Whenever a Jew does something that seems to be pro-Armenian they are actually only interested in themselves. Don't you see the logic? And then a Jew who has become a Turk, like Enver apparently was, is still a Jew. An Armenian who sells out the Armenians -- and there have been plenty -- is "no longer one of us." You can go crzy arguing with these nuts. Save your breath and your own sanity, my friend.

Armen,

 

You were joking about your grandfather boasting when he is drunk that he killed Enver because he was an avid anti-Semite? That is a joke?

 

I know ALL the facts about the triumvirate's background. No one is pulling any wool over my eyes. Yet your comments are in VERY poor taste. One of the Turkish MIT agents who monitors this and ALL other Armenian sites has probably documented your comments and will be using them as cannon-fodder against our interests.

 

You can discuss Jews all you want, EVEN the involvement of hidden Jews at the pinnacle of those responsible for the Genocide, and I do not "faint" as you say. I am concerned only when you have gone over the line with your comment.

 

Armen, how old are you? I would bet that you are under 30.

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[phantom22]

Mamigon,

 

Thanks to your comments, I no longer feel like the protagonist in Ionesco's "Rhinoceros."

 

If I may add to your comments, An Armenian does not have to sell out Armenians to be considered "no longer one of us." All they have to do is veer from accepted norms that have little to do with maintaining an Armenian identity.

[DominO123]

Phantom-

You seem to actually have a grip in reality.  Surely you must have figured out by now that there is a sizeable chunk of Armenians who are so paralyzed by their powerlessness or their frustration or what you will that it will always come back to the Jews.  Whenever a Jew -- apostate or orthodox -- does anything against an Armenian it is ALL JEWS acting against all Armenians.  Whenever a Jew does something that seems to be pro-Armenian they are actually only interested in themselves.  Don't you see the logic?  And then a Jew who has become a Turk, like Enver apparently was, is still a Jew.  An Armenian who sells out the Armenians -- and there have been plenty -- is "no longer one of us."  You can go crzy arguing with these nuts.  Save your breath and your own sanity, my friend.

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I have disagree here, Phantom was the one bringing the Jew thing, Armen was just kidding around... the Jews are both Phantoms and Verginne favoured discussion, regardless of if it is good or bad things about the Jews.