Need Info

[skhara]

OK. I'm involved in a debate in another forum with someone who is taking the Turkish position of the Nagorniy-Artsax conflict.

 

Of course I'm hearing the usual "Armenian invasion and occupation of 20% of Azerbaijan" and he brought up the four UN resolutions that were passsed in 1993.

 

Now I am getting ready to anahilate this guys argument point by point.

 

The first one being Armenian invasion of Nagorniy-Artsax.

 

I spent a couple of hours searching google for Turkish/Azeri sources to see if they claim a date of Armenian invasion of Azerbaijan anywhere.

 

My search was unsuccessful. While I came across tons of emotional rantings, like this, I failed to find any date. Just a lot of "Armenians invaded Azerbaijan".

 

We all know that when one nation invades another, there is a day and time when that happens.

 

We know the exact date when Germany invaded Poland. We know the exact date when America invaded Iraq. We know the exact date that Turkey invaded Cyprus. Now what is the date that Armenia invaded Azerbaijan (at least according to Turkish/Azeris claims)? Do they have any claim with a dates attached?

 

My counter will start with a question of when Armenia invaded Azedrbaijan? I want to know if he will be able to provide a date. I don't want any nasty surprises.

 

Any help will be appreciated.

 

Also, I went to UN websiste and dug up the 4 resolutions dealing with the conflict that were issued in 1993. Since he brought up this resolution, I will counter with these exact resolutions with the exact wording that they contain.

 

And finally, he made a claim that Turkey is right to blockade Armenia for her "agression against a neighbor state". This one I will counter with the absurd hypocracy that is the Turks. Namely the Turkish invasion of Cyprus -- a real invasion that has a date (July 20th, 1974) and its continued invasion. And since this guy likes UN resulotions, there are plenty of them on this issue.

 

Thanks.

 

Reply soon if you can help me out. I don't want to wait to long before destroying propaganda.

Edited June 11, 2005 by skhara

[kars]

Be careful. Technically, Armenia NEVER invaded Azerbaijan. May that be one of the reasons you can’t find a definite date? I think so.

 

There is no such date, stop searching.

[gamavor]

According to the old Soviet constitution, Nagorny-Karabagh was autonomous region (oblast) within the administrative borders of SSR of Azerbaidjan. I emphasize on 'administrative', because although the internal borders between the republics were fixed, they never have been internationally recognized. The only prescribed legality and source for these borders were the Soviet constitution.

 

Armenia never invaded Azerbaidjan. There were sporadic military engagements between the two republics when Azeris started shelling the border villages in Kazakh region and also Lori and around Meghri.

 

Armenians of Karabagh exercising their right to self-determination voted in an organized referendum to break up from Azerbaidjan. Azeris declared the referendum null and void and that was the beginning of the struggle of Karabaghtis for self-determination. In the mean time the Soviet supreme adopted several mutually contradicting decisions which further deteriorated the situation.

 

At the end Azeri OMON (special forces) together with the locally stationed Soviet army detachments invaded Karabagh and started action of ethnic cleansing of the Armenians.

[skhara]

Be careful. Technically, Armenia NEVER invaded Azerbaijan. May that be one of the reasons you can’t find a definite date? I think so.

 

There is no such date, stop searching.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

The date does not exist in reality; what I want to know is does it exist according to the Turks/Azeris?

[Aaron]

hope you still are in discussion with that guy

 

The date argument won't work, the barbarians invaded rome on a period of many years, from different places and without a single invasion date. he can say that in order not to make it look like an invasion armenians used the karabaghis as a pretext, and by helping them militarily they got involved in the war and ended up occupying part of azerbaijan and still blame it on karabagh in order to stay clean!

 

What you should say first is that the nature of the conflict was initially a purely administrative one, the first time karabagh forces got out of karabagh proper was in may 1992, 4 years after the beginning of the karabagh question. That his theory about armenians just attacking Azerbaijan on a sunday afternoon to steel land is not true!

 

Before may 1992 karabagh was still enclaved and bombed from Shoushi (it was also bombed from Shoushi before the khojali events .... in case he brings that up!). You can also mention that in the summer of 1992, when only the Lachin corridor was occupied by karabagh as the only link to the outside world, 48% (more than their fake 20) of karabagh was occupied by the azeris, that the azeri military was only 17 km from stepanakert, and that international observers predicted that "armenians are brave and will fight to the end, but that the fall of stepanakert, and thus karabagh, was imminent and very probable in a matter of weeks if not days". What i mean to say is that the real invasion of azeri territories (by karabagh and of course with strong help from Armenia, since armenians could not watch their brothers get massacred .... specially after 1915) began only after things got to the "kill or be killed" point for karabaghtsis. If it wasn't for the invasion, no ceasefire would have ever been signed, there would be no negotiations because a balance of power would have never been reached.

 

Have you seen the movie "Braveheart"? After William Wallace (mel gibson) beats the english a first time he decides to invade "York", an english city close to the border of scotland and succeeds in doing so! After that, the English king sends negotiators, only because a balance of power is reached! Had Wallace not done that, the english would have kept coming over and over until outnumbering the scots! Wallace lost later due to other circumstances..... and hopefully it won't be the case with karabagh. But the analogy is real: the Karabagh war was really a liberation war..... I strongly regret the refugies and hope for their return, but only if karabagh gets, officially and once and for all, rid of azeri rule!

 

 

A.

[skhara]

Thanks for the response Aaron.

 

You can also mention that in the summer of 1992, when only the Lachin corridor was occupied by karabagh as the only link to the outside world, 48% (more than their fake 20) of karabagh was occupied by the azeris, that the azeri military was only 17 km from stepanakert, and that international observers predicted that "armenians are brave and will fight to the end, but that the fall of stepanakert, and thus karabagh, was imminent and very probable in a matter of weeks if not days".

 

That sounds like a very direct quote. Do you have a link that I may use? Unlike my antagonist, I do not want to make any claims without something to back it up.

[Aaron]

from

 

http://www.armenianhistory.info/artsakh3.htm

 

Half of Artsax under Azeri occupation.

As the danger of further Azeri advances persisted, the NKR Parliament declared a state of emergency. The situation worsened to impending disaster when the Armenian defenders retreated from Mardakert and Aterk, on July 5, 1992. The whole Mardakert region was embroiled in combats. At the same time, the Azeri troops tried to break through the Armenian positions in Askeran, Martouni and Hadrout regions. On August 12, as half of the NKR territory fell under the Azeri occupation, the NKR Parliament decreed marshal law and the mobilization of 18-45 year-olds. On August 15, the State Defense Committee of the NKR was formed, and Robert Kocharyan became its Chairman with emergency powers.

 

Armenians withstand Azeri attacks.

The summer of 1992 was crucial. Despite great losses, the Armenians were able to withstand furious attacks on all front lines. Azeri military widely used bomber forces, in which Russian and Ukrainian mercenary pilots played the major role. Dropping forbidden cluster bombs on the Armenian villages became a common practice. In the fall of 1992, the Azeri troops tried to regain control over Lachin, but were definitively hurled back. Following the Armenian counterattack, the military operations moved to the Kubatli region of Azerbaijan. However, most of the Mardakert region was still under the Azeri control.

 

 

 

I'll try to find to quote, I've read it for sure, but I don't remember where it was exactly

 

R.

[archakhper]

You may no longer be involved in this conversation but if you are, this might help. If you are looking for dates of the Kelbejar and Aghdam offensives during the war of liberation, then you can check out "My Brother's Road" by Markar Melkonian about his great brother Monte Melkonian. These dates are listed in the book. But of course, they would not count as "invasion" dates, they are simply the dates for these offensive actions taken by the great liberating forces of Artsakh.

 

ISBN is 1850436355

 

BTW, could you link your conversation? I'd like to have a look at it.

 

Oh and also, I highly recommend this book. I found it breathtaking.

[skhara]

It's been dead for a while. And of coarse, offensives do not constitute invasions.

Check your PM.

[phantom22]

It is was an internal affair in Azerbaijan. The Armenians of Karabagh seceeded from Azerbaijan and when attacked, created a buffer zone. It was the pogroms in Sumgait that set the stage for this. If the Azeris had treated Armenians with civility, none of this would have happened.

 

What invasion?

[skhara]

It wasn't Sumgait that set the stage. It was the Bolshevik "ethnic policies" that set the stage.

[archakhper]

It's been dead for a while.  And of coarse, offensives do not constitute invasions.

Check your PM.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

 

Like I stated earlier..."But of course, they would not count as "invasion" dates, they are simply the dates for these offensive actions taken by the great liberating forces of Artsakh."

 

So no, they do not constitute dates of "invasion" but they may be what the guy was referring to.

 

What's my "PM"?