regmura Posted March 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 One can't associate emotions or moods - "etat d'ame" in French - to arguments/words expressed in a forum? At best, one can say: "I (or most individuals I know) would express myself(themselves) in such a manner if I(they) was(were) in such a mood - or influenced by certain emotions." Did you perceive any "anger or frustration" in messages posted by Armenians? I did not! When discussing a crime, the prosecution has to ask difficult and embarrassing questions; it does not necessarily reflects "anger or frustration." We have asked many pertinent questions that remained unanswered. The *urks' reactions may reflect ""anger or frustration." Instead of hiding behind excuses and blah-blah-blah "arguments" such as "you good, we good: no good," he could have provided - at least attempted - some answers. Why he/she didn't? Probably because he/she has none! They have to keep in mind that we have spent enough time studying, debating and analyzing the situation and they need to be better prepared - mentally, emotionally, psychologically and intellectually - if they want to meaningfully and intelligently debate the issue. "Ter shad hats abour g'ouzen!" Note: I have chosen to auto censor the word "*urk" because it is commonly perceived as unpleasant and offending, evokes unpleasant emotions and imagery and is pregnant with immoral and evil connotations! style_images/master/snapback.png As you may see at my former reply to you, you can try to understand what does bother me with your style of writing and expressing your emotions about this issue. However I am not a defendant of what was done; I am not here to defend a party. I can add my comments about reactions of Turks to certain issues such as Orhan Pamuk's statement. I am part of Turkish culture and that society, so I have a better stance than yours to understand Turkish societies problem. That's why, in my post and others, I wrote that I am not here to discuss what happened, but I m here to talk about what Turks think. I can reflect what people think about Orhan Pamuk and many others from my point of view and why they think like that. As you stated French say: "If you want peace, prepare a war" and I say je m'en fiche. That one doesn't mean anything to me, since I see this issue as the popular saying: "Fighting for peace is like ***ing for virginity." I hope you understand how I feel about your necessity of wars. So, if you are saying that you accept the western ethics, you should respect my point of views. We are different individuals in this aspect, so I expect you to not present your questions in that manner since theoretically our bases of logic are built on opposite directions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regmura Posted March 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 reguma you realize your posting under Genocide section and I will ask you to take this under consideration, and understand, we Armenians intend, not necessarily exercise rational when AG is put under question, I for one threat this Topic as it is my church, Home and very dear to my heart, and slightest detour from anyone who puts AG under question will face the same redbrick, there are tools under your and anyone’s use and convenience, if you wish to open up another thread and talk about anything. Some members will express anger or frustration in congestion with this, however, let me say it again, small steps will lead, and I hope they will, to a greater understanding and eventual harmony among our people. style_images/master/snapback.png I understand. However, I do expect a simple respect level since I don't attack people's values and what they are. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regmura Posted March 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hello, Regmura. What are your predictions of the outcome of the lawsuit against Orhan Pamuk? style_images/master/snapback.png Hi Stormig, I think he would end up going to prison if it was not today. This lawsuit was highly suggested by certain press members and supposedly these members of press represent the public sensitivity on what Orhan Pamuk said. However, many of the press members such as Engin Ardic, which I am going to translate his article for you, criticize the standpoint of these pens. It started a debate going on at Turkish press right now. With such a discussion going on in front public eye, I don't foresee a court finding Orhan Pamuk guilty because of his words. If it happens and he is found guilty, it will create a big confliction amongst people concerning freedom of speech. Even though not necessarily all of them agree on how AG happened, there will be many voices raising to question the democracy standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Why is it so important to so many of you what Turkey recognises, and what they don't recognise, what Turks think or their opinions on anything? If you know what happened and you are worried about on your own, what does it matter what anyone else thinks? Lets say tomorow Turks recognise the genocide, then what? What are the concessions you are willing to make and conditions you are willing to accept? Because plese do not delude yourself into thinking that Turkey will recognise anything if it does not benefit them. I guess my question is: How does Turkish recognition change anything? And shaunt, you really shouldn't worry yourself with innocent Turks -- concern yourself with your own people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 As you may see at my former reply to you, you can try to understand what does bother me with your style of writing and expressing your emotions about this issue. style_images/master/snapback.png Whether you have an issue with my style or not is of emotional nature and is your personal problem! I may - or may not - have a problem with yours; but, I do not constantly focus on it! If you are looking for a meaningful conversation - as you pretend - then focus on providing answers to our questions instead of hiding behind lame excuses! For the record, I was not expressing my "emotions." Those were reasonable questions that you were asked. Your habit of hiding behind this or that, in order to avoid confrontation is non productive! However I am not a defendant of what was done; I am not here to defend a party. I can add my comments about reactions of Turks to certain issues such as Orhan Pamuk's statement. I am part of Turkish culture and that society, so I have a better stance than yours to understand Turkish societies problem. That's why, in my post and others, I wrote that I am not here to discuss what happened, but I m here to talk about what Turks think. I can reflect what people think about Orhan Pamuk and many others from my point of view and why they think like that. style_images/master/snapback.png You may be part of the *urkish Society, but the facts remain that you have - so far - failed to offer anything meaningful or of interest! Again, stop hiding behind lame excuses/credentials/titles/whatever/..., show us what you have! As you stated French say: "If you want peace, prepare a war" and I say je m'en fiche. That one doesn't mean anything to me, since I see this issue as the popular saying: "Fighting for peace is like ***ing for virginity." style_images/master/snapback.png First of all, I'm not sure how you have understood - or shall I say misunderstood - the French saying; but, "je m'en fiche!" Second of all, about the "popular saying," isn't it curious that only a couple of weeks ago your paisano - Stormig - did mention the same? Ah, someone had that on a placard during the anti-war protests - "Bombing for peace is like ***ing for virginity!" Anyone remember that? style_images/master/snapback.png I hope you understand how I feel about your necessity of wars. style_images/master/snapback.png The provinicial naiveté simply kills me! So, if you are saying that you accept the western ethics, you should respect my point of views. style_images/master/snapback.png Asking someone difficult questions, is not a sign of disrespect. That is a sign of paranoia and of emotional nature! We are different individuals in this aspect, so I expect you to not present your questions in that manner since theoretically our bases of logic are built on opposite directions. style_images/master/snapback.png You are asking me to respect your point of views - when nobody did disrespect - and you are ordering me - "I expect you" - how I should "present" questions to you? That is hilarious! Hem ouyouz hem yav@z! By the way, what does "theoretically our bases of logic are built on opposite directions" could mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regmura Posted March 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Here is a translation of Engin Ardic's article. It is not totally the same word by word since he uses a lot of ironic metaphors. I did my best, my comments about where I had trouble to translate accurate are in red color. Here is the article: 08/03/2005 Engin Ardic - Aksam Gazetesi - Engin Ardic's article in Turkish As we all say 'Let's leave the words to the historians about the so-called Armenian Genocide'... Indeed, of course, our expectation from this saying is the historians will prove we are right. What happens if they don't? Are we going to accept the results, or are we going to say "not let's don't leave the words to historians." No, let's don't leave the issue to two historians, Vahak Dadrian and Peter Balakian who have done the most extended researches and works, because they are both Armenian? Let's don't leave the words to Orhan Pamuk at all, because he is a novel writer and he is just "posing." What about PhD. Halil Berktay? Which part of us(body, ass-- He was ironic at this part and I didn't know how to translate his words in a better way) are we going to put him? He is a professor at Sabanci University. He completed his degrees at Yale--not a door lock, it is a University-- and his PhD at Birmingham. Yesterday, at an interview, he tells that the action of driving out Armenians from their cities is considered "genocide" even without murder. Because they were not only driven out from east, also from cities like Izmit and Iznik. He says there are hidden orders carrying "second level importance" besides document about "drive out" letter, but also "not written" orders. These were Talat's commands to officers who were not members of Army ranks. So, let Selim Edes and Engin Civan's ears to hear (an idiom), similar approach to the subject; "Can there be documents for genocide, you bastards!" Talat, when he sent a telgraf message to Diyarbakir governor, he didn't say "stop the massacres," he made it to say, "Do not touch people who are not Armenians." Also, he mentions a historian at a diplomat status, Kamuran Gurun, talking about AG in his book, that he accepted murders of 400.000 Armerians. And he reminds that Ataturk was not involved in this issue and he was clean about it. But also, he should have argued why Anatolia movement was supported by folks with enthusiasm and why there was a law to not let allied powers to make a debate and research of "drive out" orders. (these "folks" mentioned are the supporters of Talat and others) I guess, Ataturk told to these folks "Either you support me and our war or you will have trouble with what you have done and supported about Armenian drive outs." We won the war, the issue was closed and it didn't open for 50 years. And don't forget that the ones responsible for Armenian murders, some of them, were sentenced to death in Divan-i Harb courts and they were executioned. And Diyarbakir governor Resit Bey killed himself. But also, this court was established under the shadow of invasion powers, and the court leader was the enemy of Ittihat movement Nemrut Mustafa. The ones who led the independence war rejected him. The men who were sentenced to death by Nemrut Mustafa, for example Bogazliyan Governor, turned into a national hero. Because the same court also sentenced Ataturk and his friends to death! I wonder if two wrongs erased one truth? I wonder if "Hurriyet ve Itilaf Firkasi" members' oppositional stands to "Ittihat ve Terakki" and their collaboration with invasion powers made their presentation of a sad fact vanished. I wonder if Proffessor Berktay tells these things to get a Nobel Prize, too. The best, let's leave it to historians again. But, Prof. Berktay is not a doctor or something else; he is a historian, too. And he adds "Let's make it clear that it was a fault of Ottoman Empire and we are Turkish republic, we don't have to carry the responsibilities of this empire. We should point out that we are sad about this issue." And this doesn't satisfy us, too? God, send us a historian that can satisfy us! No no, let's leave it to our "kazmas"(an idiom defining idiots etc.)and let's put our heads under the sand like ostriches. There was nothing like this issue. Let's get surprised when people talk about it and ask! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Why is it so important to so many of you what Turkey recognises, and what they don't recognise, what Turks think or their opinions on anything? If you know what happened and you are worried about on your own, what does it matter what anyone else thinks? Lets say tomorow Turks recognise the genocide, then what? What are the concessions you are willing to make and conditions you are willing to accept? Because plese do not delude yourself into thinking that Turkey will recognise anything if it does not benefit them. I guess my question is: How does Turkish recognition change anything? style_images/master/snapback.png skhara, I totally agree with you! Personally, I would care less whether TEMPORARILY SO CALLED Turkey recognizes or not the Armenian Genocide. It matters to me that the US, the UK , Germany and some others States recognize it. That would not be for emotional reasons. I never cared for emotional support: I do what I have to do regardless! The recognition of the Armenian Genocide may - or may not - lead to the next phase i.e. the territorial claims! That's all. And shaunt, you really shouldn't worry yourself with innocent Turks -- concern yourself with your own people. style_images/master/snapback.png I can relate to both of you: I can admit that it may cause prejudice to some "innocent" individuals and genuinely feel their pain; but, regardless, I would claim what is rightfully ours without remorse! That may be considered as selfish; but, I can only fight for my Nation's interests! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regmura Posted March 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Whether you have an issue with my style or not is of emotional nature and is your personal problem! I may - or may not - have a problem with yours; but, I do not constantly focus on it! If you are looking for a meaningful conversation - as you pretend - then focus on providing answers to our questions instead of hiding behind lame excuses! For the record, I was not expressing my "emotions." Those were reasonable questions that you were asked. Your habit of hiding behind this or that, in order to avoid confrontation is non productive! You may be part of the *urkish Society, but the facts remain that you have - so far - failed to offer anything meaningful or of interest! Again, stop hiding behind lame excuses/credentials/titles/whatever/..., show us what you have! First of all, I'm not sure how you have understood - or shall I say misunderstood - the French saying; but, "je m'en fiche!" Second of all, about the "popular saying," isn't it curious that only a couple of weeks ago your paisano - Stormig - did mention the same? The provinicial naiveté simply kills me! Asking someone difficult questions, is not a sign of disrespect. That is a sign of paranoia and of emotional nature! You are asking me to respect your point of views - when nobody did disrespect - and you are ordering me - "I expect you" - how I should "present" questions to you? That is hilarious! Hem ouyouz hem yav@z! By the way, what does "theoretically our bases of logic are built on opposite directions" could mean? style_images/master/snapback.png Be honest and tell me if your messages are not personal but anything to do with what is writen on this post after looking at your replies to me. Obviously, you like quoting my sentences and making analyses of them to win an ego war. However, I am not interested in reading your self-motivated posing of yours, masturbate at something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Please let us maintain a level of civility here. The issue goes well beyond the Genocide. It is an issue of Turkey's continuing approach to it's citizens, all of them, be they Christian, Moslem or Jew, Armenian, Assyrian, Kurd or even Turk. Turkey seems not to be ready to join Europe. She is creating her own destiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 I will ask everyone once more, folks please lets stick with the topic at hand shell we? thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunt Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Regmura, great article. Thanks for the translation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regmura Posted March 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Regarding the article of Engin Ardic, I can tell that it was a slap to many press members I mentioned. The newspaper he writes at also has many other writers who somehow stated the similar messages with Ardic. Engin Ardic also showed that he is a principled pen no matter who is the subject while he wrote this article, because he is also well known of his discordant articles against Pamuk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Whether or not Genocide happened is not open for discussion Tellmewhy, do further study and when you convinced your self it did really happened come back here and say something constructive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Med Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Tellmewhy, I don't know what your problem is but you take things too seriously. It is as if you are afraid of cohabitation. Trust me that won't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 (edited) but if you really believe democrasy, you have to get used to living with this.style_images/master/snapback.png As Quebecker said, history is not subject to the "democratic" process. As they say, the winners write history. In this case, the Ottomans/Turks havn't won yet so try as you may, you won't be able to push this "so called" genocide as you call it under the carpet. Whether you like it or not, Armenians are going to be the thorny stick in your rear ends for a long time to come yet. So either get used to the pain in the rear, or try to read up on history and find out what really happened instead of the brain washing you have gotten in Turkey. Heck practically the whole world has acknowledged the Armenian genocide yet you still want to "discuss" it. Wake up! Don't let those bastards in charge run your lives like sheep. I know you're smarter than that. Edited March 13, 2005 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regmura Posted March 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 I was going to translate another article, Umit Ozdag's latest one, however he lacks the capacity to tell something meaningful or arguable. But, his article is a good example for what his likely colleagues say. Basically, he tells that Turks should get into arguments and talk, however the method he give examples about how to argue doesn't make sense at all. He suggests that Turks should argue with documents, but also Turks should mention massacres and genocides that European countries still do not accept about their history. Yet, at this point he doesn't make sense at all because while you are talking about a specific crime, there is no point to present crimes done by other people to defend yourself. There are other times to talk about them and seek justice, but obviously he is far away to create a rational approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Yeh, and to add, TellmeWhy, the best way to start learning is to read the factual Wikipedia new entry about the genocide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hytga Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 (edited) lol. Domino is everywhere with wipedka in his hands P.S. good job. but more details would certainly help Sry mods that the post is unrelated to the topic, but i couldn't help Edited March 14, 2005 by hytga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 lol. Domino is everywhere with wipedka in his hands P.S. good job. but more details would certainly help Sry mods that the post is unrelated to the topic, but i couldn't help style_images/master/snapback.png That's only the first version... a little more details will be added. I separated the Hamidian massare which will have its own entry... and Adana as well. Maybe another entry regarding the Ottoman Armenians could be usefull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 Genocide recognition by Turkey - it'll be a matter of which comes first: the chicken or the egg? For it entails the shedding of paranoia and childish enmity at some point, whether there is a process of coming to terms with bullcrap first and genocide recognition being a part of it or the genocide is recognised first and the normalisation of relations comes next - or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 Genocide recognition by Turkey - it'll be a matter of which comes first: the chicken or the egg? For it entails the shedding of paranoia and childish enmity at some point, whether there is a process of coming to terms with bullcrap first and genocide recognition being a part of it or the genocide is recognised first and the normalisation of relations comes next - or whatever. style_images/master/snapback.png You know my position... Turkey will never recognise it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 Maybe, but what could be achieved in the process of striving for something, even if it is not to be fulfilled, is not in vain and well worth the bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 You know my position... Turkey will never recognise it. style_images/master/snapback.png I agree. The Germans had a gun pointed at their heads. It is as simple as that. Such recognitions never come out of volition or out of empathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Sevan Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 (edited) the reason behind turky's denial is a slew of things : Reperation & Restoration (though they dont have to, after they admitt, the worlds great powers will be forced by thier population to make turkey pay up) (much like the americans did with native americans, germans and jews with the creation of Isreal, and the ukraines under stalin)...also what turk (or any other citizen of another country in this situation) whats to give all this and thier ancestors bloody past comes alive when for 90 years they have been taught that such genocide never happened and the armenians are terrorists that got what was coming to them, they were taught this in thier schools and local news...it would be like waking up and finding out that america is a communist nation Edited March 17, 2005 by Mr.Sevan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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