regmura Posted March 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Welcome to hyeforum, regmura. Economic benefits are nice - something that Armenia needs. There are many ways to compensate the descendants of Genocide Survivors. For example, they can build a casino or something, dedicated only to this... Do you think the Kurds and Turks in Eastern Turkey would accept us among them, or would they treat us as outsiders, or ''gyavur''? I think Turkey should also give the freedom of the Kurdified or Turkified Armenians, to return being Armenian by adopting Armenian surnames, etc. I'd be also happy if Turkey treats the Armenian monuments better. style_images/master/snapback.png I agree with you. No need to mention the problems solved between two countries would definitely help the re-activation of all Turkey's east area. Projects by two nations in that area would help everyone both economically and morally. All the lost souls and damaged lives would be honored. I don't think the ordinary people of Turkey--living in their villages, hard working for putting bread on the table--, would matter Armenians living among them. The community leaders should be educated. They must be principled people, so a lunatic doesn't try to affect people. Believe me no matter what you are, they will open their homes, but there are idiots whose only job is to inflict extreme hatred to people living there. Once, these idiots find their selves better hobbies, I don't think there would be problem between ordinary people. Why should there be? I am not familiar with your definitions for the Armenian people living in Turkey right now. So, without understanding it, I don't want to call them Kurdified or Turkified, just incase to not offend them. But the ones I know, they have their original surnames and names. There is nothing Turkified or Kurdified about their names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Restitution and compesation of property and loss are not dependant on how good or bad the economy is. Turkey will continue to be a poor country for another 100 years. Restitution and compesation are tools for materialization of legal right or interest and they have nothing to do with the economy. When I decide to give a gift to somebody I will take under consideration my financial situation, but when I have to return something that I illigaly posses my financial situation is imaterial. The territorial issue. There is a valid claim on the part of Republic of Armenia against Republic of Turkey for violation of International agreements. I'm sure, this will be resolved rather quickly in the International Court. And to answer the question of the other Turk. We know that Genocide happened. It is the Turkish society that pretends that it doesn't. If your government denied the fact of Genocide for 90 years why would they bother to suddenly produce documents that will prove otherwise. Unfortunately, Turks are not aware of the huge volume of evidence of the massacres and deportations that we rightfuly call GENOCIDE not incident, because it doesn't happened once or twice, but in the course of 30 years, starting from 1894, Abdul Hamid's massacres. We don't negotiate historical facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TellMeWhy Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 hey Sip!!!!!!!!! ı did not say anything personal for you and you must know that you are not the one who can decide who ı am,ok? do u get it? and why are not you respectful of the opposite ideas? ı only wrote what ı thought. Maybe, ı should not reply to you. İt is not worth. but if you really believe democrasy, you have to get used to living with this. in my writing, ı also said that ı did not want to hurt anyone. but you did not read it carefully. Anyway, ı am not here to make you angry there are a lot of wrong things wriitten about Turkey here and ı also did not reply to them. Why? because ı do not what to argue,just wanna talk about. A friend from this forum ( ı think he is angry with my writing) suggests me not to write again because he did not like what ı wrote? at this point ı want to ask you all as a Turk, İf ı wrote sth that you like as regmura does, would you really suggest me that? Anyway ı do not think that ı will write again in this circumstances because it is not fair to be insulted here because of my thoughts. take good care of you Sincerely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 (edited) hey Sip!!!!!!!!! ı did not say anything personal for you and you must know that you are not the one who can decide who ı am,ok? do u get it? and why are not you respectful of the opposite ideas? ı only wrote what ı thought. Maybe, ı should not reply to you. İt is not worth. but if you really believe democrasy, you have to get used to living with this. in my writing, ı also said that ı did not want to hurt anyone. but you did not read it carefully. Anyway, ı am not here to make you angry there are a lot of wrong things wriitten about Turkey here and ı also did not reply to them. Why? because ı do not what to argue,just wanna talk about. A friend from this forum ( ı think he is angry with my writing) suggests me not to write again because he did not like what ı wrote? at this point ı want to ask you all as a Turk, İf ı wrote sth that you like as regmura does, would you really suggest me that? Anyway ı do not think that ı will write again in this circumstances because it is not fair to be insulted here because of my thoughts. take good care of you Sincerely style_images/master/snapback.png Mr. Tellmewhy, the genocide is not a matter of debate, the Turkish government claims that historians must decide, historians did decide... that's it that's all. And if you had read any new materials regarding the genocide(other than Balakians bore book), they don't even try to demonstrate that the genocide did happen... but rather other aspects... I have debunked over the years, all of the revisionist materials one could find on the web, and even more that you don't even know the existances of. Visit the Wikipedia talk page, in which I have engaged a debate with the author of tallarmeniantale, and see by yourself how your arguments are weak, I have answered over a hundred pages, and another 60 pages a closure is due in few days before I modify the genocide entry. In it, I have entirly discredited Gurun work, and McCarthy theses. And I even offered any Turks, be it in the academia or not(on the web everyone are equal, no one can hide behind his academic credentials) to show me wrong. True, two days ago, the Turkish government did want to attract Armenian academics. But it is true as well that the Armenian academia will NOT participate in such discussions, participating in such discussions when the genocide has been demonstrated without any reasonable doubt is futile and show an intention, the goal of the Turkish government is not to debate about the issue, it is to show to the world that the genocide is still under debate. I have asked simple questions to the author of tallarmeniantale, and many other denialists, answer me this one, since no one was able to give any answers. -Tell me Mr., why the Armenians that were "relocated" in the city of Zor, and the transit of Allepo were sent back in the desert(most of them, Del-el-Zor). 21 convoys left in 1916 from there. If the Ottoman government intended to relocate them in the city of Zor, which once many reached there, the Ottoman government took the decision to send them back? Answer: The Ottoman did not expect them to survive, when they did realise that many have survived, they decided to sent them back, those that were sent back, nearly NONE survived. If my interpretation does not make sense, show me where, if you have a better interpretation, tell me which one. -Another one, why criminals released from prisons formed the second special organization that were sent to "escort" the Armenian convoys? The Mazhar commission has provided lists, in which, we realise that most of those that were released from prison were criminals that were jailed for murder. This means that the autorities have specificaly selected murderers to escort the Armenian convoys. Answer: This specificaly shows the governments criminal intention. If my interpretation is wrong, propose me one that makes sense then. Those are just two among many other questions, some of them you can find at Wikipedia talk page. To regmura, ignore those that slander you, be it Armenian or Turk, don't answer them back. Edited March 11, 2005 by QueBeceR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lev7 Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 You know they say every people deserve their government, so blaming only the Turkish government for 90 years of denial is not enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regmura Posted March 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 as a Turk, İf ı wrote sth that you like as regmura does, would you really suggest me that? style_images/master/snapback.png TellMeWhy, my intent is not writing something that Armenians like. It is not about that. I have my own opinions after a long research on this subject. I am not 18-20 years old; I am at an age, which I believe I can make decisions of my own without being dependent on what other people say. You may believe me or not, I don't care too much really, but I love my country as much as you do. It is also the country to make who I am and what I have right now. Any threats, any corruption concerning Turkey hurt me as much any other Turk. However not talking about an issue, or trying to cover up with same old sayings are not helping us. We don't have to cover up sins that we didn't approve. But it is also our responsibility to face our problems and make something to change them. Do not listen or do not lose your encourage with insult messages, so you don't do the same thing to the others. Be objective as much as you can do, and you will come to a point where you can go to a next step. There are many Turkish discussion boards and blogs, make a search in Turkish and find those websites. There are various people telling similar things what I say and other individuals who are against it. Make your decisions there, before that, this is not the place to ask your question regarding AG if it happened or didn't happen. Take care. To regmura, ignore those that slander you, be it Armenian or Turk, don't answer them back. style_images/master/snapback.png That's fine. Everybody needs a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 just a few days ago Turkish PM called for a study of AG, now this might be a positive step in a right direction or simply a dust blown into political arena in the wake of Turkey-EU corridor, style_images/master/snapback.png Ed Jan, It is very likely - and probably is - nothing but a deceitful masquerade aiming to 1- Calm the Europeans who are increasingly putting more and more pressure on TEMPORARILY SO CALLED Turkey 2- Sabotage any objective process and make believe that Armenians "failed to prove" the facts of the Genocide I've heard the "argument" presented by TellMeWhy - i..e that Armenians consistently fail to present documents/proofs when asked - on many occasions - expressed by different *urks - during the last six months or so. That seems to be the latest scheme the *utkish "bright???" minds have concocted: a sign of the eternal *urkish Central Asian slyness! interesting developments are enfolding and I for one would not rule out sincerity of some Turks who are willing and are eager to put AG behind them, after all lets face it, Armenia and Turkey will live next to each other for many years to come, having a lasting peace will only benefit both people style_images/master/snapback.png We all want peace, all depends on the conditions and the price! The French say: "If you want peace, prepare a war." Please keep in mind that their mentality and what peace means to such a traditionally warrior/looter Nation: for *urks, a peaceful cohabitation means accepting their terms and obeying their orders: they are bullies ! Note: I have chosen to auto censor the word "*urk" because it is commonly perceived as unpleasant and offending, evokes unpleasant emotions and imagery and is pregnant with immoral and evil connotations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Restitution and compesation of property and loss are not dependant on how good or bad the economy is. Turkey will continue to be a poor country for another 100 years. Restitution and compesation are tools for materialization of legal right or interest and they have nothing to do with the economy. style_images/master/snapback.png The concept of "restitution" is based on the concept of "property." I certainly doubt that their understanding of "property" is anything close to what the concept means in the West or in a sedentary Culture. To grasp their understanding of "restitution" one should consider Nomadic Cultures. According to Dadrian, Muslim nomads had the legal right to claim as theirs any land they used for pasturing or where they have chosen to settle! That partially explains why Kurds claim as their Armenian lands! That reflects a completely different Legal Philosophy! It may the case that since the written Legal Philosophy - a facade - became more aligned with European Laws; but, that is not the case of the popular - and deeply anchored - understanding of Laws and Property. Laws are meaningless when not applied. Laws are meaningless when they do not reflect the traditional values of a Society! PS. I agree with your post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 (edited) I wouldn't reply to you, but I couldn't help myself. style_images/master/snapback.png How generous and kind of you! I can't help myself to feel honored! First of all, I cannot see any difference between you and some Turks that I personally know. style_images/master/snapback.png If you can't see a difference between two entities, it does not mean that the differences do not exist! One sees/comprehends according to his/her mental and perceptive capabilities! That is your problem, not mine! Generally speaking, all these guys have glorious days, a history that goes back and back, and you know what? They are also, always, the "good guys." There is no bad guy in this world, everybody claims that they are good and the others are bad. It is some of the Turks' problem, maybe you have a similar problem in that way, too. style_images/master/snapback.png First of all, at no point I have mentioned - in my previous post - the Armenians or compared them with *urks. The two cultures and mindsets are not comparable: your culture and mindset derives from nomadic values and modus vivendi - Central Asian in nature; ours derive from sedentary values close to Greeks/Latins/Persians/Assyrians... Second of all, there exist cultures/individuals with relatively "evil" - according to accepted norms - intentions and traditions, conditioned by their environment, History and modus vivendi. That simplistic blah-blah-blah can only convince a naive mind! Most of all, many of us went beyond your naive way of thinking of "bad guys, good guys, there a no bad/good guys" right after the 6th-7th grade! At best, that sounds "cute!!!" However, I don't want to talk with a person who thinks that Turks are a lower race or evil. Don't worry I wouldn't talk with a Turk who has similar viewpoints to yours. style_images/master/snapback.png For the record, at no point I have used - in my previous post - the words "evil" or "lower." Please deal with your paranoia all by yourself! Don't worry I wouldn't talk with a Turk who has similar viewpoints to yours. style_images/master/snapback.png I sincerely thank you for clarifying the situation: I was really worried to the point that it affected my mood all day long! I felt so belittled that a *urk wouldn't talk to me! Your words did comfort me! Thanks! So, nothing personal but something to do with thinking. Thanks and have a nice life. style_images/master/snapback.png I'm curious what kind of "thinking???" that may be! I'm conducting an "ethno-Logical" study and I'm curious to understand the "Logic" of different ethnies! PS: I really don’t want this topic to turn into a useless “We didn’t, you did, you are bad&evil, Turks are barbarians, Armenians are traitors” hate threat. There are many other topics and boards full of these kind of things. What is the point of having the same thing here? Please read my first post again if you are not sure why I am here. It is not a chance for you or Tellmewhy to jump into a discussion of who is the bad guy. style_images/master/snapback.png Can you please let me know, how "useful" have been your replies so far? If your intention was to have a "useful" and productive conversation, you would have replied to the questions that I - and gamavor - have raised! That is but a lame excuse that reflect a failure to provide a proper and meaningful reply! It's very likely that you that will continue to hide behind excuses in order to avoid embarrassing questions. That's fine. Everybody needs a chance. style_images/master/snapback.png So let's give you another chance to provide a meaningful answer to the following: (By the way, why didn't you properly reply to gamavor? Was he "slandering" you?) I am aware that most of you are familiar with the problems in Turkey, what the possible reasons are there to make it so hard for Turks to accept their ancestors' shame. style_images/master/snapback.png Citizens of TEMPORARILY SO CALLED Turkey are as guilty and responsible as their ancestors. You should not accept an inheritance i.e. the Armenian Lands, if you are not willing to assume certain liabilities and/or responsibilities! Why should we continue to suffer from the consequences - and be handicapped because - of the atrocities that you are continuing to shamelessly benefiting from? How about the Kurdish issue - that is still conjugated in the present tense? With all due respect, *urks still have the mindset - of nomadic warriors/looters - they had for centuries and generations! In Turkey, the major problem with young generations is not getting educated about "objective" history. Actually, most likely it is objective in many aspects, but when it is up to Armenian genocide, style_images/master/snapback.png Can you please explain what is "objective" in the all reconstructed History and the all fabricated image *urks are trying to create of themselves? Thanks! Note: I have chosen to auto censor the word "*urk" because it is commonly perceived as unpleasant and offending, evokes unpleasant emotions and imagery and is pregnant with immoral and evil connotations! Edited March 12, 2005 by Siamanto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunt Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Restitution and compesation of property and loss are not dependant on how good or bad the economy is. Turkey will continue to be a poor country for another 100 years. Restitution and compesation are tools for materialization of legal right or interest and they have nothing to do with the economy. Prescriptively speaking, you are right. But in reality things do not work that way, and cannot work that way. Once again, if you expect full restitution and compensation, you will be responsible for causing injustice to innocent Turkish citizens. But creating injustice is wrong, is it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regmura Posted March 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 (edited) How generous and kind of you! I can't help myself to feel honored! If you can't see a difference between two entities, it does not mean that the differences do not exist! One sees/comprehends according to his/her mental and perceptive capabilities! That is your problem, not mine! First of all, at no point I have mentioned - in my previous post - the Armenians or compared them with *urks. The two cultures and mindsets are not comparable: your culture and mindset derives from nomadic values and modus vivendi - Central Asian in nature; ours derive from sedentary values close to Greeks/Latins/Persians/Assyrians... Second of all, there exist cultures/individuals with relatively "evil" - according to accepted norms - intentions and traditions, conditioned by their environment, History and modus vivendi. That simplistic blah-blah-blah can only convince a naive mind! Most of all, many of us went beyond your naive way of thinking of "bad guys, good guys, there a no bad/good guys" right after the 6th-7th grade! At best, that sounds "cute!!!" For the record, at no point I have used - in my previous post - the words "evil" or "lower." Please deal with your paranoia all by yourself! I sincerely thank you for clarifying the situation: I was really worried to the point that it affected my mood all day long! I felt so belittled that a *urk wouldn't talk to me! Your words did comfort me! Thanks! I'm curious what kind of "thinking???" that may be! I'm conducting an "ethno-Logical" study and I'm curious to understand the "Logic" of different ethnies! Can you please let me know, how "useful" have been your replies so far? If your intention was to have a "useful" and productive conversation, you would have replied to the questions that I - and gamavor - have raised! That is but a lame excuse that reflect a failure to provide a proper and meaningful reply! It's very likely that you that will continue to hide behind excuses in order to avoid embarrassing questions. So let's give you another chance to provide a meaningful answer to the following: (By the way, why didn't you properly reply to gamavor? Was he "slandering" you?) Citizens of TEMPORARILY SO CALLED Turkey are as guilty and responsible as their ancestors. You should not accept an inheritance i.e. the Armenian Lands, if you are not willing to assume certain liabilities and/or responsibilities! Why should we continue to suffer from the consequences - and be handicapped because - of the atrocities that you are continuing to shamelessly benefiting from? How about the Kurdish issue - that is still conjugated in the present tense? With all due respect, *urks still have the mindset - of nomadic warriors/looters - they had for centuries and generations! Can you please explain what is "objective" in the all reconstructed History and the all fabricated image *urks are trying to create of themselves? Thanks! Note: I have chosen to auto censor the word "*urk" because it is commonly perceived as unpleasant and offending, evokes unpleasant emotions and imagery and is pregnant with immoral and evil connotations! style_images/master/snapback.png Well, maybe before you conduct an ethno-logical study, you should go and take a simple anthropology class, maybe it can help your ultra-logical definitions of cultures and their mind settings. I am glad you find it very cute of my 6th-7th thinking, and you are really far away from being naive, if nobody notices your re-cycled fascist definitions in use. You don't have to find my answers useful. We are talking about possibilities that can happen or not. You are not representing a political power in front of me, nor I. We are not trying to sign a treaty concerning future of our nations. As regular people we are talking. A simplistic conversation doesn't need scholarly sources and historical facts, because AG is not questioned in this post. Of course my answers will be simple in this situation. So, you were free to not read or not talk with me since this post is nothing but 6th grade thinking. However, you preferred to come here and use provocation or show your pre-eminence on a Turk’s words, although you don’t have any idea about that person. You are such educated and clever, and this Turk is stupid, so people will salute you. Bravo actually. No one else found this kind of chances before, and you are the first one to use such an affective strategy to embarrass your natural enemies. Anyway I am out here. I am a nomad indeed, what do you want me to do in front of your humble civilization Siamonto? I also like your "!" at the end of every sentence. Such an enthusiasm followed after holly words. Edited March 12, 2005 by regmura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 reguma you realize your posting under Genocide section and I will ask you to take this under consideration, and understand, we Armenians intend, not necessarily exercise rational when AG is put under question, I for one threat this Topic as it is my church, Home and very dear to my heart, and slightest detour from anyone who puts AG under question will face the same redbrick, there are tools under your and anyone’s use and convenience, if you wish to open up another thread and talk about anything. Some members will express anger or frustration in congestion with this, however, let me say it again, small steps will lead, and I hope they will, to a greater understanding and eventual harmony among our people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Opening a dialogue with Regmura or any individual Turk really does not accomplish much. The Turkish government is digging in it's heels and playing hardball. They want the issue to go away. Their archives have long been "cleansed" of any communiques related to the systematic annihilation of the Armenians and other Christians. All birth records, marital records, death records of Armenians before 1915 have been destroyed. As far as the Turkish government is concerned, these records of Armenians do not exist. How can any western nation trust the archives of a nation that has destroyed the records of the existence of people that they have annihilated. I think that Turkey is positioning themselves to be left out of the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hello, Regmura. What are your predictions of the outcome of the lawsuit against Orhan Pamuk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hello, Regmura. What are your predictions of the outcome of the lawsuit against Orhan Pamuk? style_images/master/snapback.png Stormig could you fill us in please what is the lawsuit about? and does it have any connection with AG? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Stormig could you fill us in please what is the lawsuit about? and does it have any connection with AG? style_images/master/snapback.png I does Ed. I bought his most recent novel. He is the most famous recent Turkish writer, his books are translated in many languages. The guy reffered to the destruction of a million Armenians(the Armenian genocide), now there is a lawsuit on his head because of his remarks regarding the Armenians. He was a Turkish hero, now he's a traitor. I encourage any Armenians to bought his books, he need our support now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 (edited) Thanks Domino, i should look for this book then, Edit whats the name of this book? Edited March 12, 2005 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/037...1301553-0774400 I havn't had the chance to start reading it, I have many things to write those days. It is a Novel BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 There is ample info on Orhan Pamuk even on this forum, if you do a search. It might also be informative to seek out the info on who is behind the suit filed against him - a lawyer with a history of interesting cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 They say 'incident'. To me it's genocide When its finest novelist attacked Turkey's bloody past, he became a hero for Armenians and Turks alike, says Nouritza Matossian Sunday February 27, 2005 The Observer There is a Turkish saying: 'A sword won't cut without inspiration from the pen.' Orhan Pamuk, wielder of Turkey's finest pen, has spoken and cut a swath through his country's conscience. His most recent novel Snow was set in Kars and peppered with references to the Armenian culture of that formerly Armenian city. Brilliant novelist, translated in 20 languages, winner of international prizes, he has become a hate figure. His crime was one sentence in an interview with the Swiss newspaper Tagesanzeiger this month. 'Thirty thousand Kurds and a million Armenians were killed in Turkey. Almost no one dares speak but me, and the nationalists hate me for that.' All hell broke loose. The press attacked him for dishonouring the Turkish state and incitement to racial violence. He has been called a liar, 'a miserable creature' and a 'black writer' in the daily Hurriyet. Professor Hikmet Ozdemir, head of the Armenian studies department at the Turkish Union of Historians, rejected his statement as a 'great lie'. A lone voice, Halil Berktay, professor at Sabanci University, supported Pamuk: 'In 1915-16 about 800,000 or one million Armenians were killed for sure.' Mehmet Üçok, an attorney, filed charges at the Kayseri public prosecutor's office. Another charge was filed by Kayseri Bar Association attorney Orhan Pekmezci: 'Pamuk has made groundless claims against the Turkish identity, the Turkish military and Turkey as a whole. He should be punished for violating Articles 159 and 312 of the Turkish penal code. He made a statement provoking the people to hatred and animosity through the media, which is defined as a crime in Article 312.' I find this ironic. My mother's family was deported from the historic Armenian city of Kayseri, leaving their murdered menfolk behind. I was recently in Istanbul lecturing on my biography of Armenian-American artist Arshile Gorky, the basis for the controversial genocide movie Ararat. Official permission for my talk required me not to utter the word 'genocide' to refer to the Ottoman empire's systematic deportations, tortures and killings of two million Armenians which Gorky witnessed. I might refer to those 'incidents'. The crime has never been acknowledged by successive Turkish governments, Britain or the United States. Recent discussions of Turkey's possible entry into the EU were dominated by France and other countries demanding that Turkey first admit the Armenian genocide. What if Britain had a law forbidding criticism of its history, identity, or the armed forces? Turkey has far to go to reach the legal standards of EU members, with their humane and non-discriminatory laws aiming at standards of truth and reason. So much hatred. So much anger. What does Turkey have to hide? 'Pamuk has always defended freedom of speech and thought, the rights of minorities,' writes Hrant Dink, owner of the Armenian Turkish-language weekly Agos . 'For 90 years we Armenians have been abused, insulted and discriminated against. We cannot enter certain professions, we Turkified our names. We have learnt to survive and endure without protest. Maybe it is time that the Turkish people also learnt tolerance and endurance from us.' In London, a thinly veiled propaganda exercise at the Royal Academy trumpets Turkish empires, making far-reaching claims about the origins of the 'Turkic peoples'. Echoes of master-race ideology. Pamuk himself writes in the Academy journal: 'Turks gripped by romantic myths of nationalism are keen to establish that we come from Mongolia or central Asia... scholars have come no closer to offering definitive or convincing evidence to link us with a particular time and place.' In the show the contributions of other nationals in the Ottoman empire - Armenians, Greeks and Jews - are not credited. Yet their handiwork is everywhere, in architecture, pottery, carpets, manuscripts. Britain colludes in this travesty for the sake of oil interests in Azerbaijan, Turkey's closest ally. Akin Birdal, vice-president of the International Federation of Human Rights Leagues, emphasises: 'No matter we have come to the 90th year of "incidents" Orhan Pamuk talked about, these will of course be discussed on domestic and international platforms. The aggressions carried out against Pamuk are those which have been carried out against thought. Pamuk is not alone.' Pamuk has cut the Gordian knot. He has become the hero of every right-thinking person in Turkey and every Armenian worldwide. ·Nouritza Matossian is author of 'Black Angel, A Life of Arshile Gorky' . www.arshile-gorky.com http://observer.guardian.co.uk/internation...1426319,00.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Correction. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books My mistake, I used his name to list the work, but Amazon listed My name is Red in first order, I just copied the link, without paying attention... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Restitution and compesation of property and loss are not dependant on how good or bad the economy is. Turkey will continue to be a poor country for another 100 years. Restitution and compesation are tools for materialization of legal right or interest and they have nothing to do with the economy. Prescriptively speaking, you are right. But in reality things do not work that way, and cannot work that way. Once again, if you expect full restitution and compensation, you will be responsible for causing injustice to innocent Turkish citizens. But creating injustice is wrong, is it not? style_images/master/snapback.png style_images/master/snapback.png shaunt, I understand that, from a moral point of you, it may seem unfair to cause "injustice" and prejudice to innocent individuals; but, please, keep in mind the following scenario: A property belonging to your family has been illegally and forcefully extorted by thugs a couple of decades ago. The said property is currently occupied by innocent individuals - that may or may not be related to the thugs who have looted your family. 1- Shall you relinquish all your rights on the ground that the current inhabitants are seemingly "innocent" or not "responsible?" 2- If your family has a bigger need for the extorted property, would you still relinquish your rights? As an Armenian, I prefer to see *urks suffering instead of Armenians suffering because of crimes committed by *urks. Such is life! Note: I have chosen to auto censor the word "*urk" because it is commonly perceived as unpleasant and offending, evokes unpleasant emotions and imagery and is pregnant with immoral and evil connotations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 (edited) reguma you realize your posting under Genocide section and I will ask you to take this under consideration, and understand, we Armenians intend, not necessarily exercise rational when AG is put under question, I for one threat this Topic as it is my church, Home and very dear to my heart, and slightest detour from anyone who puts AG under question will face the same redbrick, there are tools under your and anyone’s use and convenience, if you wish to open up another thread and talk about anything. style_images/master/snapback.png Ed jan, I understand that for most Armenians the Genocide is a sacred issue and emotions may have their say; but, facts indicate that *urks are far more emotional when discussing - or reminded of - 1- The reality of the Genocide 2- Their nomadic Central Asian origins 3- Their past and/or present crimes I have read the thread again and I don't see an apparent sign of "irrationality" in messages posted by Armenians. Some members will express anger or frustration in congestion with this, however, let me say it again, small steps will lead, and I hope they will, to a greater understanding and eventual harmony among our people. style_images/master/snapback.png One can't associate emotions or moods - "etat d'ame" in French - to arguments/words expressed in a forum? At best, one can say: "I (or most individuals I know) would express myself(themselves) in such a manner if I(they) was(were) in such a mood - or influenced by certain emotions." Did you perceive any "anger or frustration" in messages posted by Armenians? I did not! When discussing a crime, the prosecution has to ask difficult and embarrassing questions; it does not necessarily reflects "anger or frustration." We have asked many pertinent questions that remained unanswered. The *urks' reactions may reflect ""anger or frustration." Instead of hiding behind excuses and blah-blah-blah "arguments" such as "you good, we good: no good," he could have provided - at least attempted - some answers. Why he/she didn't? Probably because he/she has none! They have to keep in mind that we have spent enough time studying, debating and analyzing the situation and they need to be better prepared - mentally, emotionally, psychologically and intellectually - if they want to meaningfully and intelligently debate the issue. "Ter shad hats abour g'ouzen!" Note: I have chosen to auto censor the word "*urk" because it is commonly perceived as unpleasant and offending, evokes unpleasant emotions and imagery and is pregnant with immoral and evil connotations! Edited March 12, 2005 by Siamanto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 (edited) I encourage any Armenians to bought his books, he need our support now. style_images/master/snapback.png I havn't had the chance to start reading it, style_images/master/snapback.png An "informed" recommendation! No surprise, no comments! Edited March 12, 2005 by Siamanto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 (edited) They have to keep in mind that we have spent enough time studying, debating and analyzing the situation and they need to be better prepared - mentally, emotionally, psychologically and intellectually - if they want to meaningfully and intelligently debate the issue. "Ter shad hats abour g'ouzen!" style_images/master/snapback.png That’s what I'm saying Siamanto, in the past we had Turkish members who came immaturely started to vomit in this section, we want to keep at list this section clean of any, insults, meaningless arguments, cheep shots, so far our new member has not said anything negative towards the issue, and I do believe its true out communication AG question eventually will result in recognition/acceptance by Turkey, not with war or manners which can spark emotions and childish approaches. Again I for one want to discuss and talk nothing wrong with that. and yes I for one can be very emotional and nothing wrong with that, understand please, when I call someone an ass I better be prepared to hear the same from the who I call an ass, and next thing you know people forget what was the topic about! Thanks for understanding Edited March 12, 2005 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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