Barbaric Behavior Against The Armenian Values

[HOB]

GEORGIAN CLERGY TAKES HOLD OF ARMENIAN CULTURE IN TBILISI

 

Norashen Church Isn’t the Only Example of Their Barbaric Behavior

 

The Georgian Diocese of the Armenian Apostolic Church informed Regnum agency that there are many examples of barbaric behavior against the Armenian spiritual and cultural values in Tbilisi, while the recent events that took place around Norashen Surb Astvatsatsin (Holy Virgin) church, "were just a notorious example of such behavior."

It turned out that on February 15, the Georgian Orthodox Church consecrated the Armenian Norashen church by a Georgian rite. After the complaints of the Armenian dwellers of Tbilisi, Ilia II, Georgian Catholicos, decided to close the church. Father Abgar said that, certainly, the Norashen church should be opened again, but as an Armenian church only, while the Georgian false headstones that were brought to the yard of the church should be withdrawn from its territory.

As we informed earlier, Bishop Vazgen Mirzakhanian, head of Georgian-Armenian Diocese, applied to Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili with the issue of the Norashen Church. Zion Catherdral, Georgian Orthodox Church, the Azeri mosque, as well as Jewish synagogue situate in Leselidze Street, near the Armenian Norashen Street. There used to be a Greek church beside the Norashen Church, but few years ago it was consecrated by a Georgian rite and became one of the three churches stolen from the Greek in Tbilisi. During the renovation of the very Greek church the Georgian threw the rubbish and Georgian headstones brought from other places into the yard of Norashen church, to prove in future that this church is a Georgian one.

Norashen Surb Astvatsatsin church was established in 1467 and reconstructed in 1650. Jean Chardin who visited Tbilisi in 1672 indicates the church with the name Norashen. The church had been reconstructed for three times more in 1795, 1808 and 1875. In 1994, Tariel, a Georgian priest, began making an Armenian church into a Georgian one. Particularly, he withdrew the frescos by the Hovnatanian brothers out of the inner walls of the church.

Since 1989, a number of Armenian churches were turned into Georgian ones. We will mention some of them: the Armenian Tchughureti Surb Astvatsatsin church in Nino Chkheidze Street, that was consecrated by Ilia II as the Georgian St. Nino Church in the presence of Zviad Gamsakhurdia. Today this church is called Tsminda Ninos Eklesia.

In 1989, Karmir Avetaran, the highest church of Tbilisi (40 meters) was exploited. There used to be eight Armenian churches in Havlabar (a well-known Armenian historical district in Tbilisi). At present, only one of them functions, that is Echmiatsnots St. Gevorg Church. Dzorabash St. Gevorg and St, Karapet Churches were also taken over and made into Georgian churches. Yerevantsots St. Minas Church is semi–ruined now.

Since 1990, some other Armenian churches were taken hold of or consecrated Georgian in Tbilisi.

These churches are Karapi St. Gevorg church, Bethlehem Surb Astvatsatsin church, Kusanats St. Stepanos church, Zarivajri St. Karapet church. In the October of 2002, St. Nshan church was set on fire, while Mughni St. Gevorg church is about to be deconstructed.

Today, the Georgian Orthodox Church spares no efforts to take hold of Norashen Surb Astvatsatsin church.

 

By Tatoul Hakobian

 

http://azg.am/?lang=EN&num=2005030303

[Arpa]

WHO THE @#$% CARES WHAT HAPPENS TO A PILE OF ROCKS IN TIFLIS??!!

When did we become a World Power to worry about Tbilisi, Syngapore, Bangladesh , Ankara, Istanbul, NY and LA?

US, The undisputable world power is fast crumbling under the weight of globalization, what with military presence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea ...... and now rattling sabres against Syria, Iran and wahatever else?

If the US cannot handle it, who the hell are we to divide and dilute our forces between Tbilisi and Timbuktu, between Karintak and Kamchatka??

 

Read this from Groong.

 

POPULATION IN ARMENIA TO DROP BY 500,000 BY 2050: UN

 

 

 

YEREVAN, MARCH 2. ARMINFO. UN experts forecast 500,000 drop in

Armenia's population by 2050.

 

Population decline will be observed in almost all the CIS countries:

1.5 mln reduction in Georgia, 2.7 mln in Belarus, 1.8 mln in

Kazakhstan, 0.9 mln in Moldova. in Ukraine the population will almost

halve from 46 mln to 26 mln people. In Russia from 143 mln to 112 mln.

 

Population growth will be registered in Azerbaijan 1.2 mln, Kyrgyzstan

1.4 mln, Turkmenistan 1.9 mln, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan by 1.5 times.

 

By 2050 the world population will grow from 6.5 bln to 9.1 bln due to

high birth rate and life expectancy. If presently there are 86 mln

people over 80 in mid XXI their number will amount to 400 mln.

=====

When the hell are we going to learn to tend to our own business and let the world take care of their $%##$@ business?

Who the hell assigned us the police to determine what goes on in Istanbul

and all the way to Islamabad.

Do we have enough forces to police the whole universe?

Does the US have enough forces to police the whole world?

Can we forget what goes on in Bangladesh and worry about Bagramian? Can we leave alone Tbilisi and concentrate about Talinn?

 

Look at the story above. Down by 500,000? Does that mean there will be 500 peoples left? Does that mean Yerevan will be village of Yurkey or yIran?

Can we forget what happens to pile of rocks(some may call it "church")in Zimbabwe?

Can we talk about babies born (not) in Zangezur and forget that pile of rocks in Zimbabwe?

WHO THE HELL CARES WHAT HAPPENS TO A PILE OF ROCKS IN TBILISI!!

When we reconquer all those lands then we will worry about them, in the meantime..What is going on in Yerevan?

 

Remeber what happened when we were decimated simply because we had diluted our forces between the land of the Virq(Tiflis) and those of the Turq (Istanbul)?

Edited March 3, 2005 by Arpa

[Solaris]

WHO THE @#$% CARES WHAT HAPPENS TO A PILE OF ROCKS IN TIFLIS??!!

When did we become a World Power to worry about Tbilisi, Syngapore, Bangladesh , Ankara, Istanbul, NY and LA?

US,  The undisputable world power is fast crumbling under the weight of globalization, what with military presence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea ...... and now rattling sabres against Syria, Iran and wahatever else?

If the US cannot handle it, who the hell are we to divide and dilute our forces between Tbilisi and Timbuktu, between Karintak and Kamchatka??

 

Read this from Groong.

=====

When the hell are we going to learn to tend to our own business and let the world take care of their $%##$@ business?

Who the hell assigned us the police to determine what goes on in Istanbul

and all the way to Islamabad.

Do we have enough forces to police the whole universe?

Does the US have enough forces to police the whole world?

Can we forget what goes on in Bangladesh and worry about Bagramian? Can we leave alone Tbilisi and concentrate about Talinn?

 

Look at the story above. Down by 500,000? Does that mean there will be 500 peoples left? Does that mean Yerevan will be village of Yurkey or yIran?

Can we forget what happens to pile of rocks(some may call it "church")in Zimbabwe?

Can we talk about babies born (not) in Zangezur and forget that pile of rocks in Zimbabwe?

WHO THE HELL CARES WHAT HAPPENS TO A PILE OF ROCKS IN TBILISI!!

When we reconquer all those lands then we will worry about them, in the meantime..What is going on in Yerevan?

 

Remeber what happened when we were decimated simply because we had diluted our forces between the land of the Virq(Tiflis) and those of the Turq (Istanbul)?

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

How emotional, Arpa!

 

But I understand how you feel. If we don't leave the dead bury the dead soon enough, and concentrate on the living instead, we are pretty much doomed.

[Twilight Bark]

Dear Arpa,

The emotions you verbalize are understandable, and can be related to. However, the state of Armenian cultural monuments is simply an indicator of our collective energy and imagination, and weeping over their demise is not a cause of any hardship in the Republic. The lamentation over their demise is not a distraction from our "real" problems. It is a lamentation over the same state of mind, the lack of energy, the lack of resolve, the lack of imagination that lies under the "real" problems. To me, the news is not about the Georgians. It is about us. I disagree with you that worrying about the faraway places is a distraction. If we had the extraordinary energy, coherence, and resourcefulness necessary to turn our little nation into a great one, the reasons for the lamentation above would not exist. The Georgians would restore, embellish, and present them to us as proof of their friendliness to their powerful neighbors who have powerful friends near and far. But their neighbor is not worth sucking up to because its aim in life is low-grade mediocrity. And the first step toward making mediocrity one's ultimate goal is to think hyper-realistically, as displayed by the sentiments you expressed. Those that cannot think big are unlikely to think up anything worthwhile.

 

Don't get angry at the caring. Do get angry at the reasons.

 

TB

 

P.S. You see Boghos, I can't resist peddling wisdom. After all, things are much easier said than done.

[Dave]

A lot of things can happen between now and 2050 so we can't be sure.

 

I think we need someone like Rafiq Hariri.

[Arvestaked]

What the Georgian's are doing is sick. You can't just usurp people's historical monuments like that. That is extremely disrespectful... criminal, even. I care what happens to a pile of rocks in Tiflis if the pile of rocks is a historical building. The fact is that Armenia's emigration issue and the US military scenario could not be less related to this issue. They have nothing to do with it whatsoever. So calm the hell down, Arpa. If someone was stealing my car from my drive way, I would not be less aggrivated by someone destroying my family photos in the livingroom. You act as though being upset by this is somehow wasting valuable time that could be spent by us going around the world convincing Armenians to move to Armenia and going to Washington to have philosophical debates with Bush about the current administration's foreign policy. Not so. Get you feet back on the ground. There are all sorts of tragedies out there affecting all sorts of different people to many dfferent degrees. One does not make the other disappear especially if it is one people stealing and disrespecting another people.

[Dave]

The question is: If the Georgians were a large minority in Armenia, would we have done the same?

 

(100th post )

Edited March 3, 2005 by Dave

[Arvestaked]

I am confident we would not have.

[DominO123]

P.S.  You see Boghos, I can't resist peddling wisdom.   After all, things are much easier said than done. 

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

 

Only if, only if that wisdom was peddled in the theology and religion boards. The random mind misses you.

[Arpa]

A lot of things can happen between now and 2050 so we can't be sure.

 

I think we need someone like Rafiq Hariri.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Please Dave, enlightens us.

I hope you are not talking about assassinations.

I don't know Hariri that well except that I remember him visiting Yerevan a short time ago.

"Rafiq"? Is that an Armenian name?

I won't be surprised if it were, and as far as "Hariri", that is a very common surname in Syria and Lebanon, it means weaver in general and a silk worker in particular. Which will bring us back to the Armenian connection as most silk workers and weavers in those lands were of Armenian origin.

[Arvestaked]

I am hoping on having the resources to contribute to making Armenia a more livable place and am working to acquire those resources. Edited March 4, 2005 by Arvestaked

[Armen]

AZG Armenian Daily #040, 05/03/2005

http://www.azg.am/?lang=EN&num=2005030502

 

ISSUE OF NORASHEN SURB NSHAN CHURCH TO TOP ARMENIAN AND GEORGIAN CHURCH LEADERS’ MEETING AGENDA

 

The Armenian diocese of Georgia issued a press release yesterday in regard to the incident with the Armenians Surb Astvatsatsin church of Norashen in Tbilisi. Daily Azg’s March 4 issue highlighted the issue of this 15th century Armenian church in Leselidze Str in Tbilisi that the Georgian Church attempts to appropriate. It must be noted before turning to the release itself that during the last 15 years the Georgian clergy, spearheaded by Iliad II Patriarch, took hold of and consecrated few Armenian churches in Tbilisi including Kusanats Surb Stepanos church, Surb Bethlehem, church of Khikho and others.

 

The Armenian Diocese blessed the Armenian and Georgian youth and hopes to resolve the conflict surrounding Norashen during high level negotiations

 

On 3.3.2005 a peaceful action planned by the Armenian-Georgian Youth organization, which assembled more than 200 youth, took place in the Centre of Tbilisi. The youths set out at the Cathedral Sioni located near Norashen, then moved on to the latter and ended at the Armenian Church Surp Gevorg. The Georgian youth joined the Armenians in this peaceful action to express their disagreement with the actions of Georgian priests aimed at the appropriation of Armenian Churches and to underline the fact that not all Georgians support this position. At Surp Gevorg they lit candles and received blessings from Father Abgar. In his address to the youth, Father Abgar remembered former times, when both nations observed mutual pilgrimages, with faithful Georgians visiting Holy Etchmiadzin to take part in the liturgy with Armenians and Armenians in turn came to Svetiskhoveli. He mentioned this tradition was surprisingly kept alive even during Soviet times, when religion was suffering suppression.

 

Unfortunately, despite the goodwill of the Georgian youth who had come to express their solidarity with the local Armenians, many of them refused to enter the Armenian Church Surp Gevorg and stayed outside in the courtyard. Some of the Armenian youth decided then to continue their action by planting their tents in front of Norashen and were on the verge of declaring a hunger strike.

 

After the prayers and an appeasing sermon by Father Abgar, the tense situation among the youth was defused and some of the Georgian youth came forward to receive Father Abgar’s blessing. The Georgian and Armenian youth then peacefully ended their action.

 

The Armenian Diocese hopes to be able to solve the tensions surrounding Norashen and Surp Neshan on a high level during future negotiations between Karekin II, the Catholicos of all Armenians and Iliad II, the Patriarch of Georgia.

 

For recollection, tensions relating to the 17 years old conflict around Norashen had arisen again after the obvious attempt by Georgian priests to change historical facts. The Armenian Diocese had already communicated these facts in a former Press Release of February 28.

 

A few months ago, hundred year old Georgian grave stones, carrying Georgian inscriptions, suddenly appeared in the courtyard of the Armenian Church Norashen. Rather, they were transported here. Our photographer and cameraman had filmed these stones still wrapped in their iron wires, thrown randomly into the church’s courtyard. In the meantime these stones have been neatly lined up and safely installed along the church’s wall. The reasoning behind is crystal clear: these actions serve to "prove" that the church is in fact a Georgian orthodox one, as according to the words of the Georgian priest, Father Tariel, "The Armenians would have never let the Georgians bury in their dead in front of their own church". At the same time as the Georgian stones were brought from an unknown cemetery to Tbilisi, the Armenian ones, located on the other side of the church were found vandalised – the Armenian inscriptions had been destroyed.

 

Armenian Diocese in Georgia

[Bakersfieldian]

The Georgians have pretty clear in the past few years that there's only room for one religion in their country.

 

They burn Jehovah's Witness and Mormon books whenever they can find and confiscate them (Yes, they are illegal there).

Why do you think they would stop at them?

Did you say anything when they went after these other "non-approved" religions or was that OK because it wasn't you?

[Dave]

Please Dave, enlightens us.

I hope you are not talking about assassinations.

I don't know Hariri that well except that I remember him visiting Yerevan a short time ago.

"Rafiq"? Is that an Armenian name?

I won't be surprised if it were, and as far as "Hariri", that is a very common surname in Syria and Lebanon, it means weaver in general and a silk worker in particular. Which will bring us back to the Armenian connection as most silk workers and weavers in those lands were of Armenian origin.

 

Sorry for the late reply.

 

Rafik Hariri was a very rich Lebanese man. He was enriched as a businessman in Saudi Arabia. He almost single-handedly rebuilt war-torn Lebanon and its capital Beirut after the Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990).

 

He became Prime Minister - a post traditionally held by Sunni Muslims - in the pro-Syrian Lebanese government. Being a Sunni Muslim himself, he embellished the capital by building, among other things, new mosques and even paid for the renovation of churches. If it wasn't for him, Lebanon would have still been struggling to recover from the War. A few months ago, he resigned, and Omar Karami who was more pro-Syrian than him, took his place. He was inclined to join the anti-Syrian opposition with Walid Jumblatt - a Druze. He got assassinated before making the move.

 

The Lebanese opposition, the media, the US, France, and other nations say that the pro-Syrian Lebanese government did it with the help of Syria. Even Russia said that Syria should withdraw its forces from Lebanon. According to certain sources, the bomb was planted under the road which Hariri probably routinely used. If it had been a traditional terrorist attack, telephones would not have flown up into, and from the St. George hotel. A big crevasse wouldn't have been formed on the ground. The Lebanese government wouldn't have ''cleaned up'' after Hariri's death.

 

But we can never be sure. It could have been anyone else... It could have been done by someone who knew how Lebanese nationalists can be manipulated.

 

Anyway, let us get back to your questions. The damages done to Armenia during the earthquake, and during the Karabagh war, were less damaging than the 25 years Civil War. Look at Lebanon now. It stands better than its own neighbour - Syria - that has dominated it politically... Lebanon is lucky that it borders the Mediterranean.

 

The Syrian labour workers helped Lebanon immensely. But now, the Lebanese regret it that they have brought 1.4 million of them. We might regret it too if we bring in Iranian or other Muslim workers in Armenia. They do not assimilate very quickly.

 

I don't know much about Rafik al-Hariri's origin, other than his Sunni Muslim identity. I am sure that his Armenian origins would have been exposed if it was true. I think that Emile Lahoud's mother is Armenian...

 

Rafik Hariri is dead. Hopefully, the buildings he built and renovated won't go down with him.

 

 

EDIT: Look at what happened in Anjar, an Armenian town near the Syrian border.

 

Several residents of Anjar, a town near the Syrian border and the location of Syrian military-intelligence headquarters, were arrested for holding candlelight vigils following the Feb. 14 assassination of Rafik Hariri, a former Lebanese prime minister.

 

source: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0308/p06s01-wome.html

Edited March 9, 2005 by Dave

[skhara]

Read this from Groong.

 

Arpa, that is not a very uplifting read.

[Stormig]

Armenian Diocese in Georgia

 

Press Release

 

08-03-2005

 

 

 

The massacre of Armenian cultural and spiritual heritage in Georgia continues in the spirit of the ultra-nationalist Gamsakhurdia

 

 

 

What else can one call these acts of vandalism? And when will a nightmare that has swept over Georgia for the last decades and gained new momentum in the past 17 years finally end?

 

 

 

In Christian Georgia today, in the Kakheti region famous for its mild climate and good wine, unique Armenian Khatshkars are being destroyed. A Georgian monk does not hide his intentions of destroying the stone with the Armenian inscriptions on of the churches of the century old Armenian ecclesiastical complex of Gremi, Kakheti, and states that the Armenian Church in the complex will be renovated according to Georgian faith. Regrettably, many Georgian priests mistakenly confound ultra-nationalism and vandalism with patriotism.

 

 

 

Our photographer was looking in vain for three unique Khatshkars of the 14th century on the façade of one of the Churches inside the Gremi complex. And his face turned white, as he remembered how he had himself photographed the Khatshkars well in place some 12 years ago. Now they are gone, just like many other Armenian Khatshkars from the 12th to the 17th century, which were destroyed in the ecclesiastical complex of Gremi.

 

 

 

Today the complex is closed to the public. It is being “renovated”. A Georgian monastery is located inside. The monks are busy with beekeeping and the destruction of Armenian cultural heritage.

 

 

 

It is saddening that while the “patriots” are destroying a unique Armenian cultural heritage, they do not realise that they are at the same time annihilating their own history and, moreover, an all-Christian heritage which reaches far beyond the realm of national importance.

 

 

 

Gremi, the former capital of the Kingdom of Kakheti is located on the left bank of the river Alazan. It became the capital of Kakheti in the year 1466. Armenians played an important role in the development of the town, as the business and trades were in their hands. The town blossomed and developed further until the onset of the 17th century, before the devastating Persian invasions in 1614-1616 led by Sheikh Abasa. Many historical documents still tell of this era and the Armenian presence in Gremi, as cited by the historian Arakel Davrijetsi, and witness accounts collected by the Russian Embassy in the year 1640.

 

 

 

Press Office – 5 Krasilnaya Str., Tbilisi, Georgia

 

Tel: +995 32 75 41 11 - Fax: + 995 32 75 17 90

 

Mobile: +995 99 41 34 74 - Email: isakhanyan@yahoo.com