What Is The Attraction To Moslem Men?

[Sassun]

This is all true, but why do you think Islam is any better? Why do you not choose to create and follow your own path, instead of mindlessly following those of others?

What is the connection ? I do not understand... there are also non-secularist Christians. I am against the manipulation of religion - God's word - to suit one's own desires. Either take it all or leave it all. Or come up with your own alternative, as you said. Otherwise, it just becomes hypocritical. There is no such thing as a "secular" Muslim or a "secular" Christian. That is all in people's heads. Secularism is a construct specifically devised for a purpose. The purpose is to strip people of their spiritual connections to God, so that they become like machines laboring day and night (with a bone thrown here and there, in the form of "entertainment") for the happiness and wealth of the few and their financial domination of world markets. This is exactly why "secularism" is associated with the so-called "free market" and global capitalist economy.

 

Also, you have been warned. On this forum, you'll mostly find atheists who have sworn off all religions, so you shouldn't be all too surprised at people's reactions.

I am not surprised at people's atheism. I am surprised at some people's hypocrisy. Religion is not about pick-and-choose. There are open-buffet restaurants for that, suit yourselves. I do not understand why anyone would choose to identify with a particular religion (for whatever reason) and at the same time trash its most basic tenets/elements. If that isn't oxymoron, I don't know what is.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Sassun

[nairi]

What is the connection ? I do not understand... there are also non-secularist Christians. I am against the manipulation of religion - God's word - to suit one's own desires. Either take it all or leave it all. Or come up with your own alternative, as you said. Otherwise, it just becomes hypocritical. There is no such thing as a "secular" Muslim or a "secular" Christian. That is all in people's heads. Secularism is a construct specifically devised for a purpose. The purpose is to strip people of their spiritual connections to God, so that they become like machines laboring day and night (with a bone thrown here and there, in the form of "entertainment") for the happiness and wealth of the few and their financial domination of world markets. This is exactly why "secularism" is associated with the so-called "free market" and global capitalist economy.

 

I wasn't talking about secularism or religion. I was talking about creating and choosing your own path, instead of following that of others, e.g. of Muslims, Christians, capitalists, or communists. The question I asked was: in what way is Islam any better than all other religions or ideologies? I'm assuming that you chose to become a Muslim, because you somehow consider Islam to be a superior religion and way of life from other religions or ways of life. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Sip]

Oh PLEASE !

Let us not start with that argument , HIJAB / NIQAB in FRANCE and NETHERLANDS ring a bell ??????!??!?!?!

 

So much for the merits of "secularism"!

 

You did not tell me , can the Mosque in "secular" Armenia do the azhan ?

 

Let us not talk about secularism because you do not want to open the can of worms that it is . Secularism has become the battle cry of Islamophobes.

 

Moreover, secularism has drained Western society of any vestige of spirituality that it might have had in the past, and transformed it into a materialistic/hedonistic society where people are robots at the forefront of capitalism.

 

I am basically at a complete loss at what you are babbling about here. I presented you a coherent argument on why I think separation of church and state is a good thing. You on the other hand went all dramatic on me.

[Anonymouse]

What is the connection ? I do not understand... there are also non-secularist Christians. I am against the manipulation of religion - God's word - to suit one's own desires. Either take it all or leave it all. Or come up with your own alternative, as you said. Otherwise, it just becomes hypocritical. There is no such thing as a "secular" Muslim or a "secular" Christian. That is all in people's heads. Secularism is a construct specifically devised for a purpose. The purpose is to strip people of their spiritual connections to God, so that they become like machines laboring day and night (with a bone thrown here and there, in the form of "entertainment") for the happiness and wealth of the few and their financial domination of world markets. This is exactly why "secularism" is associated with the so-called "free market" and global capitalist economy.

 

This is fallacious. This is why Islam is so stagnant and stuck where it is. I will tell you: I am not an atheist. I do believe in God. However, you paint picture of an all or nothing deal. With that said, your rant against secularism as somehow devoid of spirituality is erroneous. If anything, the spirituality has been devoid due to the growth of government, and the philosophy that sees the government as savior of all things. The free market, which you also rant against, is perhaps the most consonant thing with the idea of the individual, and private property and privacy. It only shows that Islam cannot make these distinctions and that everything is essentially an Islamic question. This is why Islam and the Arab world has been stagnant. Islam as a philosophy is more regressive than Christianity.

 

 

 

[Anonymouse]

I am basically at a complete loss at what you are babbling about here. I presented you a coherent argument on why I think separation of church and state is a good thing. You on the other hand went all dramatic on me.

 

Because Sip, Islam still believes in controlling every thing you do or think. The freedom to question even God is forbidden in Islam. As Nietzsche would say, the inability to break old virtues and break those old tablets, cannot allow for the creation of new values. In other words, much like all other ideologies and isms, it becomes a victim of its own success, a closed system.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Anonymouse

[ED]

but Anon, Nietzsche said that to all religions and sects not just Islam

mow said it better, "all religions are poison" its an endless discussion, when ever i have to evaluate my stand i always go back to my 11th commandment

 

"everyone should believe in something, I believe i would have a drink" end of the story

if you ever go to "house of blues on sunset or any other house of blues, on the top of the stage you'll see signs of all religions, and right next to it it says,

 

"its all the same"

[Yervant1]

"everyone should believe in something, I believe i would have a drink" end of the story

Me too!!!!

[nairi]

Because Sip, Islam still believes in controlling every thing you do or think. The freedom to question even God is forbidden in Islam. As Nietzsche would say, the inability to break old virtues and break those old tablets, cannot allow for the creation of new values. In other words, much like all other ideologies and isms, it becomes a victim of its own success, a closed system.

 

You should feel quite at home with Islam then. Women know their place, homosexuals are executed, men have the upperhand, and anyone who dares to question or overturn the status quo is stoned to death. Seen as you are still stuck in a time warp when people with alternative views were silenced (i.e. had no opportunity to shove themselves down your sensitive throat and change the world order), Islam seems to suit you better than anyone.

 

Don't bother replying.

[Sassun]

I wasn't talking about secularism or religion. I was talking about creating and choosing your own path, instead of following that of others, e.g. of Muslims, Christians, capitalists, or communists. The question I asked was: in what way is Islam any better than all other religions or ideologies? I'm assuming that you chose to become a Muslim, because you somehow consider Islam to be a superior religion and way of life from other religions or ways of life. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not exactly, Nairi. The superiority/inferiority discourse is not really what the Christianity vs. Islam vs. Judaism is about. Judaism and Christianity were historically -- and acknowledged by Islam as such -- true religions , but people did not abide by the teachings of either, and instead opted for manipulations and so on (the Qur'an talks about those ) . Islam is the ultimate truth , and complemented rather than opposed many of the basics of Judaism and Christianity (hence why the Christians and Jews are considered the people of the book and also Noah , Abraham , Jesus , etc., are considered to be Prophets by Islam ) . The whole superiority argument would give the impression that Islam is RELATIVELY better than the others , rather than absolutely the one and only truth, in absolute terms (which it is). What makes Islam the one and only truth , is of course , the fact that it is perfect and all-encompassing . It covers all aspects of human life, human interactions , as well as spiritual connection to God , the Prophet , and the Imams , and also, in Shi'a Islam , the idea of the Imam Mahdi who is in Occultation .

 

you paint picture of an all or nothing deal.

What is the problem with that ? If you do not like it, then why do you want to change it ? Stop defining yourself in terms of that, find something else to define yourself in terms of !

 

With that said, your rant against secularism as somehow devoid of spirituality is erroneous. If anything, the spirituality has been devoid due to the growth of government, and the philosophy that sees the government as savior of all things.

Thank you for making my point : secularism emphasized a totally human-inspired system, and the belief in this human-inspired system rather than governance based on religion brought about an erosion in spirituality. In other words, not only did secularism attempt to destroy religion, but it also destroyed spirituality. As such, secularism is the most materialistic form of governance. For weak-minded people who are swayed after their passions rather than able to control them , this is the ultimate truth and salvation , yes. And then again, weak minded people are happy with their lot , working like donkeys day and night so that a few would reap the benefits . In that respect , Islam is innocent of any of this , in fact Islam 's emphasis on zakat and khums is really an economic system in and of itself. You can be happy with your iPods and designer clothing , but I will be happy with the orphans my money is going towards sponsoring and feeding , or the children it is educating .

Edited June 12, 2007 by Sassun

[Sassun]

I am basically at a complete loss at what you are babbling about here. I presented you a coherent argument on why I think separation of church and state is a good thing. You on the other hand went all dramatic on me.

Babbling ? I addressed your points but it seems you did not pay attention or could not find a counter-argument, because it is the TRUTH. Can you tell me what is so "secular" about the banning of Hijab (or other symbols of religious practice, before you jump in and say that it is not just against Muslims) in schools ? Can you tell me what is so "secular" about not allowing the azhan ? What does secularism have to do with any of that ? And if these are prohibited in a "secular" system , then on what basis do you say that "secularism" is superior ?

[nairi]

Not exactly, Nairi. The superiority/inferiority discourse is not really what the Christianity vs. Islam vs. Judaism is about. Judaism and Christianity were historically -- and acknowledged by Islam as such -- true religions , but people did not abide by the teachings of either, and instead opted for manipulations and so on (the Qur'an talks about those ) . Islam is the ultimate truth , and complemented rather than opposed many of the basics of Judaism and Christianity (hence why the Christians and Jews are considered the people of the book and also Noah , Abraham , Jesus , etc., are considered to be Prophets by Islam ) . The whole superiority argument would give the impression that Islam is RELATIVELY better than the others , rather than absolutely the one and only truth, in absolute terms (which it is). What makes Islam the one and only truth , is of course , the fact that it is perfect and all-encompassing . It covers all aspects of human life, human interactions , as well as spiritual connection to God , the Prophet , and the Imams , and also, in Shi'a Islam , the idea of the Imam Mahdi who is in Occultation .

 

Don't get me wrong, I still consider you an Armenian (though who am I to consider anyone an Armenian?). I think the main question is why you would choose to abide by the laws of a religion, perhaps written by God (if you choose to believe so), but interpreted by man (and we know how faulty man can be). I'd ask the same question to a follower of the Armenian Apostolic Church. But, at the end of the day, whatever floats your boat..

[Sassun]

Don't get me wrong, I still consider you an Armenian (though who am I to consider anyone an Armenian?). I think the main question is why you would choose to abide by the laws of a religion, perhaps written by God (if you choose to believe so), but interpreted by man (and we know how faulty man can be). I'd ask the same question to a follower of the Armenian Apostolic Church. But, at the end of the day, whatever floats your boat..

Nairi

I practice Islam because I believe in it (of course) and also because it makes my life complete. Before, I used to feel 'empty' and that life was just an amalgamation of materialistic experiences. It was disappointing and really filled me with despair and hatred. Aside from the fact that neither secularism nor any other system of thought that I have come into contact with, really gave me any sense of satisfaction and made me understand some things. Yes, it is true that interpretation is done by humans and that it is not perfect, but we must strive for the closest-to-perfect interpretation, and also strive to apply those in our daily lives -- this is the 'internal jihad' (don't freak out from that word, please !). This is why we have religious debate sessions on the interpretation of verses in the Qur'an (which are complemented of course by the Hadiths and in particular Nahj al Balagha ). The rest, namely the interpretation of the Ulama - religious scholars - every person can choose whichever cleric he wants to follow, and on particular issues, the 'most knowledgeable' cleric is to be emulated even if you follow another cleric but you know that on that particular issue some other cleric is more knowledgeable and therefore has more chances of having interpreted it accurately. Yes, as I said interpretations are not perfect and human beings are not infallible, but on what basis does this mean that we should abandon our quest for the best interpretation and the best system based on that interpretation? What will abandoning this quest achieve? Why would anyone choose a system that is more subject to mistakes and farther away from God ?

[Anonymouse]

You should feel quite at home with Islam then. Women know their place, homosexuals are executed, men have the upperhand, and anyone who dares to question or overturn the status quo is stoned to death. Seen as you are still stuck in a time warp when people with alternative views were silenced (i.e. had no opportunity to shove themselves down your sensitive throat and change the world order), Islam seems to suit you better than anyone.

 

Don't bother replying.

 

Nah, Islam isn't my place because ( a) you intentionally misrepresented the things I believe and stand for ( B ) you intentionally misrepresentated my stance on homosexuality and ( c) I will reply if I feel like it because dried fruits (read "chir" in Armenian) have no business telling me what I can or cannot do.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Anonymouse

[Anonymouse]

but Anon, Nietzsche said that to all religions and sects not just Islam

mow said it better, "all religions are poison" its an endless discussion, when ever i have to evaluate my stand i always go back to my 11th commandment

 

I know that, believe me. However, this thread is dealing with Islam, hence why I said it in reference to Islam. We don't have to worry about this with Christianity because Christianity, unlike Islam, is not the total societal package in the "Western world".

 

 

[Sip]

Mouse and Nairi, I think it's group hug time. Now both of you, cut it out. Put each other on ignore. Please!

[Sassun]

I know that, believe me. However, this thread is dealing with Islam, hence why I said it in reference to Islam. We don't have to worry about this with Christianity because Christianity, unlike Islam, is not the total societal package in the "Western world".

So now there are different Christianities?

 

Btw , do you know anything about respecting the people you are discussing with ? your reply to Nairi is disgusting.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Sassun

[Anonymouse]

What is the problem with that ? If you do not like it, then why do you want to change it ? Stop defining yourself in terms of that, find something else to define yourself in terms of !

 

Now, now, do not get worked up my Koranic disciple. What did I define myself in terms of? The reason I pointed out Islam is an all or nothing deal, and which you just admitted, is because in such a society, you are nothing but the product and thought of Islam.

 

Thank you for making my point : secularism emphasized a totally human-inspired system, and the belief in this human-inspired system rather than governance based on religion brought about an erosion in spirituality. In other words, not only did secularism attempt to destroy religion, but it also destroyed spirituality. As such, secularism is the most materialistic form of governance. For weak-minded people who are swayed after their passions rather than able to control them , this is the ultimate truth and salvation , yes. And then again, weak minded people are happy with their lot , working like donkeys day and night so that a few would reap the benefits . In that respect , Islam is innocent of any of this , in fact Islam 's emphasis on zakat and khums is really an economic system in and of itself. You can be happy with your iPods and designer clothing , but I will be happy with the orphans my money is going towards sponsoring and feeding , or the children it is educating .

 

You are jumping from A to C without going through B and in the process your Islamic dislike of all things non-Islamic is crawling out. Drawing a fallacious conclusion is not limited to Islam, Christianity, Judaism or secularism. With that said, you are too myopic to notice what I was saying through your Islamophile lens. In the process, you have painted a typical egotistical religious fanatics picture, that you and you alone have discovered truth and the word of God and everyone else is mired in the fields of misanthropy.

 

You are then basically saying that the Framers of the Constitution who perhaps devised one of the strongest, and most creative legal documents in the history of mankind were weak-minded (bear in mind these were all religious men!) who decided to separate religion from public life. Islam does not recognize this, thus Islam never had a concept of liberty and the freedom of the individual. Sure, they will point to some Koranic verse, but looking at the history of the Islamic world, will give one a clearer picture.

 

You forget that because of the West's adoption of liberalism (in the classical sense), the idea of private property, and the Industrial Revolution, created a prosperous society, while the Islamic world never experienced such a revolution in terms of wealth, prosperity and the overall advancement of the status of the individual both in terms of happiness, wealth and freedom.

 

Your fanaticism and dislike of infidels is seeping through and it's not becoming. Your rant against "materialism" whatever that means, and in turn free markets, is reminiscent of Marxian strands. What is wrong with iPods? So are people who have iPods cursed by the devil and possessed by an evil scourge? I guess you would fair better in the desert with a camel and dressed like a genie.

 

 

[Anonymouse]

So now there are different Christianities?

 

Btw , do you know anything about respecting the people you are discussing with ? your reply to Nairi is disgusting.

 

Why don't you first see the way Nairi replied to me and our discussion in the homosexual thread before you ostracize me, Muslim. If you don't know the whole story, stick to your Seven Pillars.

 

And as far as my reference to Christianity, no, I did not state there are different Christianities. What made you interpret it that way? What I was saying is we don't have to worry about Christianity taking over our lives because of the separation of Church and State.

[Sassun]

Anonymouse

Blah blah blah ! Your reply is just a bunch of pretty words with no meaning behind them !

 

The so-called framers of your constitution might have been "religious" according to their definition , but then as I said , religiosity is not about what one defines one's buffet attitude as. You are talking about the values and merits of this "ingenious" system they created, and yet this system has been responsible for the spiritual and moral bankruptcy of the U.S and Europe as well . Only your beloved USA's crimes in the Middle East can be a close competitor to the rate of murder and immorality that takes place in your societies. Perhaps Iraq is catching up to that rate , but then again , Iraq is now "free" . It has seen your "light".

 

You are trying to address my points only at face value. Thus, when I mentioned iPods , you asked me the question of what is wrong with owning iPods. Nothing is wrong with owning iPods. But iPods and other such gadgets are not my Messiah. They are not the meaning to my life. It might be difficult for you to imagine a world beyond your world of iPods and gadgets and other materialistic stuff that your so-called "secular" civilization boasts of (and then you talk about your identification with Christianity as part of your Armenian identity... which is a contradiction). But then, all hail "secularism".

[Takoush]

So now there are different Christianities?

 

Btw , do you know anything about respecting the people you are discussing with ? your reply to Nairi is disgusting.

Instead of taking sides and trying to kiss Nairi so much, like Anon said why don't you read Nairi's post then NOT attack Anon.

 

Also Nairi came back from another thread that she went back and forth arguing with Anon then she carried it on this thread her arguments. In another words she is escalating.

 

 

[Sassun]

Why don't you first see the way Nairi replied to me and our discussion in the homosexual thread before you ostracize me, Muslim. If you don't know the whole story, stick to your Seven Pillars.

 

And as far as my reference to Christianity, no, I did not state there are different Christianities. What made you interpret it that way? What I was saying is we don't have to worry about Christianity taking over our lives because of the separation of Church and State.

No thanks, I do not need to read that thread, nor care about what was said there. What do I care what was said there betw. you and Nairi ? How does that justify the way you are talking with her now ?

 

This is what you said: Christianity, unlike Islam, is not the total societal package in the "Western world".

I do not know how you jump from this sentence to "we don't have to worry about Christianity taking over our lives because of the separation of Church and State."

 

The above makes a distinction not only betw. Christianity and Islam , but also emphasizes Western definition of Christianity.

[Sassun]

Instead of taking sides and trying to kiss Nairi so much

Kiss Nairi ? I do not need to kiss anyone. For any reason whatsoever. If you think I am willing to sacrifice my principles or beliefs for some sort of 'acceptance' you are living in a dream world and time to wake up from it.

 

Btw if you are so concerned about 'taking sides', why don't you look in the mirror , you are accusing me of taking sides based on something I read, yet you are taking sides and accused me of being a Turk and a traitor based on my religious beliefs.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Sassun

[Anonymouse]

Anonymouse

Blah blah blah ! Your reply is just a bunch of pretty words with no meaning behind them !

 

 

Well, that's one way of dismissing the other side when thoughts and logic fail you.

 

The so-called framers of your constitution might have been "religious" according to their definition , but then as I said , religiosity is not about what one defines one's buffet attitude as. You are talking about the values and merits of this "ingenious" system they created, and yet this system has been responsible for the spiritual and moral bankruptcy of the U.S and Europe as well . Only your beloved USA's crimes in the Middle East can be a close competitor to the rate of murder and immorality that takes place in your societies. Perhaps Iraq is catching up to that rate , but then again , Iraq is now "free" . It has seen your "light".

 

There are too many things wrong with this picture. I don't know whether it's your assumption of the Framers' beliefs and how they were not religious and conclude they were followers of a "buffet attitude" (whatever that is), or whether it's your ignorance of U.S. Constitutional Law and U.S. History. You also assume that I somehow support Bush or his phony war on terrorism. Like I said, for a Musulman, you sure seem to be getting quite a few emotional bursts and tantrums, contrary to the peace and tranquility you were supposed to have gained from this new faith.

 

You are trying to address my points only at face value. Thus, when I mentioned iPods , you asked me the question of what is wrong with owning iPods. Nothing is wrong with owning iPods. But iPods and other such gadgets are not my Messiah. They are not the meaning to my life. It might be difficult for you to imagine a world beyond your world of iPods and gadgets and other materialistic stuff that your so-called "secular" civilization boasts of (and then you talk about your identification with Christianity as part of your Armenian identity... which is a contradiction). But then, all hail "secularism".

 

Why do you assume that I only imagine a materialistic world, and for that matter other people? For you, you either have a theocratic regime or not, and not once does it cross your fanatic mindset that they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It's easy to give a diagnosis of the problem plaguing the western world, and believe me there are many, but it's far more complex than the simplstic tar brush of "oh they lost their religion therefore they are corrupt".

 

This is unfortunately the problem that occurs when one embraces and succums to any ideology or ism, with their entire self, be it Islam, Christianity, or fascism, or socialism, etc. I guess Islam did not teach you the first law which is not to succumb to any ideology that claims to have answers to everything, for that is how deception occurs.

 

[Sip]

Only your beloved USA's crimes in the Middle East can be a close competitor to the rate of murder and immorality that takes place in your societies...

 

That is no argument for or against the validity of the US Constitution. The foreign policy in the middle east adpoted by the US in the last 50 years was not something that was derived from its constitution. I understand you are angry with the US involvement in your region of the world (and probably rightly so), but this has little bearing on the type of society we are discussing here.

 

Sassun, you are completely confusing your hatred of the US foreign policy with your dislike of fundamental individual freedoms to choose how they want to live and not necessarily be tied to YOUR Allah. No, I don't acknowledge your Allah as any sort of Universal Truth if that wasn't clear in our discussions up to this point. I NEVER will. So the ONLY way you and I can coexist in a society is if that society separates dogma from the state.

 

Do you think you and I can ever coexist peacefully? If so, then you are implicitly accepting the notion of separation of church and state

Edited June 12, 2007 by Sip

[Anonymouse]

No thanks, I do not need to read that thread, nor care about what was said there. What do I care what was said there betw. you and Nairi ? How does that justify the way you are talking with her now ?

 

This is what you said: Christianity, unlike Islam, is not the total societal package in the "Western world".

I do not know how you jump from this sentence to "we don't have to worry about Christianity taking over our lives because of the separation of Church and State."

 

The above makes a distinction not only betw. Christianity and Islam , but also emphasizes Western definition of Christianity.

 

First, Nairi was the one who resorted to derailing the thread and making it personal with her reference to me and Islam, and if you were not so myopic and read the other thread, you can see who was out of line first.

 

Second, you are reading far too deeper into that post than was intended, so I cannot help you there. I already said what I meant.