Genocide Obsession

[DominO123]

You call it "obsession," I call it a "determination." It does not have to "paralyze" it can also "motivate!"

Digressions are facts of life: I've seen discussions about "srika" turning into "erika" "amerika" "pabrika" or "intch g@ses ka!"

It's not true that most discussions "turn into a debate on G!"

That is a very serious accusation and a very complex subject i.e. what is "Armenian Culture" in the Diaspora!

Facts (accessible to everybody:)

 

1- Hyeforum Statistics

Topic                                                          Posts      Views 

Armenia(Armenian Nation)                  150    13000  (Approximative total of Forums in ARMENIA)

Life                                                                      303  9946

Love and Romance                                      223  8442

Genocide                                                          668    5686

Chit Chat                                                        175    5816

Science and Technology                          376    5496

Humor                                                              665    5061

Music                                                                  498    4178

 

(Very disapointing in Arts & Literature!)

 

2- Website Statistics (Based on Google)

"armenia"                                            13.5M

"+armenia  +genocide"                  196K              or  0.15%

"armenian"                                          4M

"+armenian  +genocide"                260K                or  7%

 

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You remember me not so long ago, I was "discussing" with a Turk claiming that Armenians have no life, and that we were all bunch of genocide obsessed idiots... The guy happened to use hyeforum as example.

 

I told him how ironic it was since statistically speaking, it was actualy the "life" forum that had the most post, followed by life and romance.

[Siamanto]

I will be short, to me it is more simple, and there are two parts in it.

 

1. As a moral question - Genocide recognition is a matter of basic justice. Any moral person would be for the acknowledgement of the truth, and if we Armenians did not consider this an important issue something would be wrong.

2. As a practical question - Genocide recognition would be an important asset for our republic. Landlocked, small Armenia will always have a hard time to become a decent country in terms of economy and its ability to contain challenges by hostile neighbors. A lot has been stolen from us, and if we get back what belongs to us then we can easily be what we deserve to be - a decent country where life is not very hard. A widespread recognition of the Genocide would much help our cause of getting what rightfully belongs to us.

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I apologize if I was too long!

 

Yes! I totally agree with you! Unfortunately, we still have to justify the obvious!

 

 

 

And it seems as if it is true, because a lie told many times creates the impression that it is true.

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But false impressions are usually based on misinterpretations!

For instance, the following lie:

"Turkey belongs to Europe."

Is usually understood as: Jurks belong to - i.e. are part of - the European Community.

While it means:

The Lands that are TEMPORARILY called Turkey belong to Europeans!

It will be eventually rectified!

[Sasun]

I apologize if I was too long!

You were not long, just enough But I chose to be short

For instance, the following lie:

"Turkey belongs to Europe."

Is usually understood as: Jurks belong to - i.e. are part of - the European Community.

While it means:

The Lands that are TEMPORARILY called Turkey belong to Europeans!

It will be eventually rectified!

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That's an interesting interpretation Siamanto, it would be a nice ending to the Turkic conquests of the lands to which they don't deserve.

Another alternative way of the mentioned lands becoming the possession of Europeans would be also that Turks themselves become truly European, much like Hungarians who also descended from Turkic tribes but today we don't see any traces of that.

[Siamanto]

Another alternative way of the mentioned lands becoming the possession of Europeans would be also that Turks themselves become truly European, much like Hungarians who also descended from Turkic tribes but today we don't see any traces of that.

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One difference: Jurks are not necessarily - genetically - descendents of Jurkic tribes!

Their genetic pool is mainly non-Jurkic and stolen, their lands are stolen, their cultural artifacts are stolen etc.

Their medieval, military minded mindset is ALL that is authentic Jurkic: you take that away and you have Greeks/Armenians/Assyrians/...

[Sasun]

One difference: Jurks are not necessarily - genetically - descendents of Jurkic tribes!

Their genetic pool is mainly non-Jurkic and stolen, their lands are stolen, their cultural artifacts are stolen etc.

Their medieval, military minded mindset is ALL that is authentic Jurkic: you take that away and you have Greeks/Armenians/Assyrians/...

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Siamanto, I agree, they don't have anything authentic Turkish other than aggressive habits inherited from their ancestors. I am not a believer in genetics in such matters, one of the reasons precisely being that our close genetic brothers are our enemies. So to my mind its all the same regardless of the genes, but they could get Europeanized somehow, I don't think it is an impossible thing to expect, though it may not happen.

 

P.S. Is there any reason to call Turks "Jurks"? The word "Turk" itself does not have nice associations, so I don't get why "Jurk" is preferred in such cases.

[Siamanto]

So to my mind its all the same regardless of the genes, but they could get Europeanized somehow, I don't think it is an impossible thing to expect, though it may not happen.

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Yes! It may or may not happen!

 

 

 

P.S. Is there any reason to call Turks "Jurks"? The word "Turk" itself does not have nice associations

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I don't like using bad words! Isn't "ph**k " a euphemism for you know what?

Are you encouraging me to use words with "bad associations?" You should be ashamed of yourself! I thought you were asdvadzavakh!

Edited January 19, 2005 by Siamanto

[Sasun]

I don't like using bad words! Isn't "ph**k " a euphemism for you know what?

I am not sure what you mean Have you seen it somewhere?

Are you encouraging me to use words with "bad associations?" You should be ashamed of yourself! I thought you were asdvadzavakh!

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Well, I was just wondering if you were trying to say "Jurk" in order to give a negative valuation, I wanted to point out that we Armenians already associate many things negative with the word "Turk", and I can't understand why you were doing it.

 

BTW, I am astvadzaser, not astvadzavakh

[Anonymouse]

Armenians are starting to turn the genocide into a fetish object, like the Jews have done to the holocaust.

[ED]

Armenians are starting to turn the genocide into a fetish object, like the Jews have done to the holocaust.

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Anon behaive, I will tollarate your sarcasm in most part, but not on this one!

[Anonymouse]

Anon behaive,   I will tollarate your sarcasm in most part, but not on this one!

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I believe I am entitled to my opinion. If you do not like it do not read. I was behaving. But it appears you do not like to here contrarian views. In any event, that is what I believe.

[ED]

I believe I am entitled to my opinion. If you do not like it do not read. I was behaving. But it appears you do not like to here contrarian views. In any event, that is what I believe.

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there is a defarance beetwin contrarian view and musterbation, especialy when it comes to a Genocide section, have, and this is not anyway ONLY CONCERNS YOU, respect and dignaty when posting here in Genocide section

 

do i need to explain my self any farther?

[Sasun]

I believe I am entitled to my opinion. If you do not like it do not read. I was behaving. But it appears you do not like to here contrarian views. In any event, that is what I believe.

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Anon, I respect your right to have opinions and express. I believe Ed does too. Sometimes your posts are not clear - were you trying to express an opinion, or trying to cause a controversy, or not trying to cause a controversy but nonetheless not caring about the consequencies anyway. That is how I understand Edward's response above. Just a few simple observations

We just want to keep everything easy and not cause any more fights

[Anonymouse]

Why is it assumed that I am trying to "cause a controversy". I grow more and more dissappointed with these forums and the anti-intellectual stance it takes that because some people air views contrary to what is believed by most, that they are trying to "incite something". I cannot help that some people react uncomfortably to uncomfortable views. If you do not like it, do not read and not reply. I find this mindset prevalent not just with Edward but with Domino, et al. What a tragedy truth evokes!

[Sasun]

Why is it assumed that I am trying to "cause a controversy".

I would rather say it may appear so. I don't think you want to provoke fights, but some people don't always get your sarcastic comments. I think I get it most of the time, but perhaps not always.

[Armat]

Armenians are starting to turn the genocide into a fetish object, like the Jews have done to the holocaust.

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I’ll be interested to know where that precise fault line is where a tragedy and the denials of the perpetrators and subsequent decades of Armenian efforts for recognition has now “started” to turn into a fetish.Enlighten me please.

[THOTH]

The real question you all should contemplate is when any post by the rat has ever turned into anything worth serious consideration on any level.

 

Besides being an entirely inscincere and obviously unfeeling person it is clear that he primarily posts only for effect and his own amusment. Not worth the time really.

[Nakharar]

Why don't you retort with more intelligent posts Thoth instead of starting a smear campaign. Nothing better to say?

 

There is a "fetish" whether we like it or not. Using that word in itself is not objectional. It only shows that some people think below the waistline.

[DominO123]

I’ll be interested to know where that precise fault line is where a tragedy and the denials of the perpetrators and subsequent decades of Armenian efforts for recognition has now “started” to turn into a fetish.Enlighten me please.

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Don't try to find any sense in his post, there is none.

[Stormig]

Why don't you retort with more intelligent posts Thoth instead of starting a smear campaign. Nothing better to say? 

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I think he's being generous. The "smearee" in question either posts long lines of jibberish or single lines for effect and then denies it and admonishes the masses for even daring to suspect such of him.

My input on the subject matter - more effective and more extensive methods toward informing people (not just politicians so they support resolutions!) are worth aspiring and striving for. That's an understatement. However, having that only as focus ought to be plain and dull and unrewarding in the long run - as I can infer from what the author of the thread has to say. I suppose some communities in the diaspora are luckier than others in that they have more variety. I hope the "problem" is not spread homogeneously. As for Jews, their tragedy is acknowledged by and large - yet not only do they keep reminding the world about it but they also keep in touch with each other in all sorts of ways. That's something worth learning from them.

[Nakharar]

As for Jews, their tragedy is acknowledged by and large - yet not only do they keep reminding the world about it but they also keep in touch with each other in all sorts of ways. That's something worth learning from them.

 

We are ages away from that stage. They have sucessfully publicized the Holocaust in the 70s and 80s, but now have propagated it to death. They have reached a dead ground in terms of sympathy if not in academia. We are still in our infancy compared to them. The problem is not only to inform people but also evoke sympathy whenever the Armenian Genocide is mentioned. That's the most difficult aim to achieve. Most people could care less about the Holocaust and other genocides nowadays. It would be better if through the Armenian Genocide an interest in all matters Armenian be it culture or otherwise could be kindled.

[Sasun]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this article alone, so here you go.

 

Turkey Begins Self-Reflection Over Armenia

 

www.armenialiberty.org

By Nicolas Cheviron, Agence France Presse

 

(AFP) - While an exhibition in Istanbul devoted to the daily life of the Armenians in Anatolia at the start of the 20th century is breaking attendance records, Turkish society is beginning to reflect on the Armenian question, erased from official history for the past 90 years.

 

The exhibition "my dear brother", which opened on January 8, has attracted 6,000 visitors in 12 days according to organizers, a record for local galleries. Through 500 postcards from the period, the exhibition endeavors to show, city by city and with supporting figures, how omnipresent Armenian communities were across the Ottoman territory and their role in society.

 

"In Turkey, history has always been taught about one people -- the Turks, as if there had never been any other people on the territory. When we speak of Armenians, they are not described as an integral group of society but as a source of problems," explained Osman Koker, exhibition director.

 

"It's to fill this void, because I have an 11-year-old daughter who is getting this kind of education at school, that I have decided to publish a book and put on this exhibition," said Koker, an historian turned editor.

 

"Without this realization, it will remain impossible to discuss the events of 1915," he said, referring to the Armenian massacres committed between 1915 and 1917 by the Ottoman armies.

 

Convinced of Turkish society's growing curiosity about its past, Koker, nonetheless acknowledges that any change in mentality will take time. "A majority of the public, especially in the country areas, consider the simple word 'Armenian' an insult," he said.

 

Even if a handful of academics and amateur historians have attempted to re-examine Turkish history, it is not easy to break the deep taboo which has been deeply ingrained in the general consciousness by official history.

 

"Until 1980, Turkish school textbooks quite simply didn't mention the Armenian massacre," explained Fabio Salomoni, author of a book on the Turkish education system. "With the first acknowledgements of 'genocide' by Western governments and the increasing number of attacks by Asala (an Armenian activist organization), a paragraph was then added excluding all Turkish responsibility for the deaths of Armenians, explaining in the context of a war.”

 

Even if Turkey acknowledges the massacres, it objects to the term 'genocide' and the figures of 1.2 to 1.3 million killed, as claimed by the Armenians, estimating the number of victims at between 250,000 to 300,000.

 

Even though Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan recently opened an Armenian museum in Istanbul - just before the European summit in Brussels which gave a date to Ankara to start negotiations for joining the European Union - there is no question of overturning the existing orthodoxy concerning the Armenians.Several state-subsidized organizations continue to conduct research aimed at showing that if there was a genocide, it was more likely committed by Armenians against the Turks.

 

"We can't talk of a major change at the level of the state," said Tarin Karakasli, of the Armenian newspaper Agos. Even though "an evolution has occurred amongst the elite intellectuals who are starting to openly discuss the subject and to encourage the publication of alternative books".

 

Karakasli congratulated the EU and the role it has played in "breaking the Armenian taboo" by encouraging the democratization of Turkey but criticized the position of France, which has sought to make acknowledgement of the genocide a precondition for joining the EU. "These pressures will achieve nothing, the question can only be resolved by internal dynamics," she said.

 

"The Turkish population has still not fully acknowledged the problem; in this context, imposing a solution can only provoke hostile reactions," said Etyen Mahcupyan, an Armenian from Istanbul and writer for the daily newspaper Zaman.

[DominO123]

Nicolas Cheviron missed the point entirly, I will answer once I find out where and how to start.

[nairi]

Armenians are starting to turn the genocide into a fetish object, like the Jews have done to the holocaust.

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I would say we already have.

 

Btw, I'd like to just point out that statements like the two above have been made on many occasions before on this forum, including this thread.

Edited January 20, 2005 by nairi

[DominO123]

I would say we already have.

 

Btw, I'd like to just point out that statements like the two above have been made on many occasions before on this forum, including this thread.

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I have to disagree here.

 

[n] excessive or irrational devotion to some activity; "made a fetish of cleanliness"

[n] a charm superstitiously believed to embody magical powers

 

The second definition doesn't apply.

 

When saying Armenians, it is a generalisation. The typical Armenian mind his own business, go to work, to school etc. Some are devoted to the causes. When saying Armenians, you imply the majority of Armenians, which is not true at all.

 

But again, the genocide is not an activity, how can it be a fetish. Discussing about it may be a fetish, but from the forum stats here in this forum, it seems well balanced.

 

Now, if we visit Groong, most of the news are not about the genocide, so again, there is no evidences that the discussion is a fetish, neither the activities to get it recognised.

 

I more think that unlike the Shoah cases, the devotion to the recognition is reasonable, because this cases is still denied, and if we do nothing about it, this denial will spread even further.

 

I would even tend to believe that we are not doing enought.

Edited January 20, 2005 by Fadix

[Boghos]

Maybe "fetish" is not the most appropriate word. In this line of reasoning "obsession" would probably be more precise. One question that always makes me think is: if Turks have been living in denial for so long, and I do think that this is a verious serious trait of a sick society. A society that can´t find peace with itself. A paranoid delusional world where there is always someone trying to impede that great nation from occupying its deserved high standing place. Culprits being Armenians, Kurds, Arabs, Iranians or whomever else. the average Turks does think that "the Armenians" are a conspiracy...if they just knew...

 

But after a large digression, I wonder if this behaviour by the Turks has led also to a need from many Armenians for recognition, above and beyond what would be ethically and politically deserved. Hence maybe the Genocide obsession. A sort of distorted Stockholm syndrome maybe.