Turkey's Accession To Eu

[gamavor]

Armen, your observation is very accurate at least per my understanding. The reason why Europeans were mad at UK and US was because of the tendency of the later to behave as drunk cowboys. Nevertheless it looked like family feud rather than political crises. And again one of the reasons for that are the economical implications and the cost of the war. Europeans perfectly understand that economic stagnation in US would effect their own economies and general well being. It is like spending the family budget irresponsibly by some of the members of the family and then asking for their equal contribution.

 

To my satisfaction, European leaders recently adopted a philosophy that is very close to my understanding of how the world should turn, i.e. if someone decided to jump over the window, I will aware him of possible negative consequences of such a move, but I'm not going to stop him.

 

Actually under certain circumstances I might open the window for him.

[Armen]

One of those articles that once again proves that the BBC (or BSC) cannot be trusted for any of their reports on anything. Quite sad really, that such an internationally acclaimed broadcast company would spew such BS.

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I think it was not a wrong report. BBC was just following the PR of the bargain. And maybe in some 10 years we will know what EU got as a concession from Turkey by playing the genocide card at the last minute. They kept it ambiguous until the last moment and used it on and off so that Erdogan could not back down. This once again reinstates how strong can the AG card be in regional politics.

Edited December 17, 2004 by Armen

[Arpa]

Am I the only odd man out here?

 

If this forum were the only news outlet one would be under the impression that this ccession thing was solely dependent on the Armenians. Yet, as every news media have been talking about the subject for quite sometime but more so the past two days, I have yet to see or hear the A word. Even less the AG phrase. Have these reporters even heard about the AG, or know where Armenia is?

History is repeating itself even as we speak. Turkey will bully itself into the heart of Europe just as they did it in the tenth century when Armenia and Byzantium were arguing about religion. Just as they did in the 15th century, invading and conquering half of Europe as the Europeans were arguing among themselves as to which is the true Chrsitianity. Catholicism, Protestant or Orthodox?

And today, the same Europeans to spite each other, Britain over France, France over Germany, and above all the US over Europe are using the this Turkish accession threat to score points one European country over the other. Their position is so weak, those who are playing the Muslim card on the one hand also make it a point to show that 20-30% of French are Muslims, other European countries not far behind.

 

Turkey has been trying to conquer Europe for the past thousand years. Has that time arrived?

 

Should we encourage them? Perhaps in doing so they will all migrate to Paris, Berlin, London, Amsterdam .... and vacate OUR LANDS.

 

In closing. Will someone show us when and where the major news media have even uttered the "A" word? Or, for that matter Turkey's oppression of its own minorities, blockade of Yerevan Province...etc.?

 

 

Are we once again, true to our nature creating fantasies and believing in them?

[nairi]

The Belgian channel wrote a pretty open report in their teletext on the demonstration in Brussels, entitled "Armenians want recognition genocide". I'll watch the news tonight (missed it at 1pm).

 

See here: http://www.canvas.be/ click on teletext, p. 173.

 

The main Dutch news agency NOS, on the other hand, has completely ignored this issue. They did talk about recognition of Cyprus, but not a mention of the more than 2000 Armenian protesters standing outside the EU building in Brussels. But then again, NOS like the BBC is sponsored by Turkey-lovers, so want more could we expect?

 

I haven't received anything from ANP yet, so we'll see about that.

 

And yes, Sasun, from what I understood, the date is set on October 3.

[DominO123]

Am I the only odd man out here?

 

If this forum were the only news outlet one would be under the impression that this ccession thing was solely dependent on the Armenians. Yet, as every news media have been talking about the subject for quite sometime but more so the past two days, I have yet to see or hear the A word. Even less the AG phrase. Have these reporters even heard about the AG, or know where Armenia is?

History is repeating itself even as we speak. Turkey will bully itself into the heart of Europe just as they did it in the tenth century when Armenia and Byzantium were arguing about religion. Just as they did in the 15th century, invading and conquering half of Europe as the Europeans were arguing among themselves as to which is the true Chrsitianity. Catholicism, Protestant or Orthodox?

And today, the same Europeans to spite each other, Britain over France, France over Germany, and above all the US over Europe are using the this Turkish accession threat to score points one European country over the other. Their position is so weak, those who are playing the Muslim card on the one hand also make it a point to show that 20-30% of French are Muslims, other European countries not far behind.

 

Turkey has been trying to conquer Europe for the past thousand years. Has that time arrived?

 

Should we encourage them? Perhaps in doing so they will all migrate to Paris, Berlin, London, Amsterdam .... and vacate OUR LANDS.

 

In closing. Will someone show us when and where the major news media have even uttered the "A" word? Or, for that matter Turkey's oppression of its own minorities, blockade of Yerevan Province...etc.?

Are we once again, true to our nature creating fantasies and believing in them?

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The French chanel TV5 regarding the issue today, spent most of the time dedicated to it, talking about Armenian manifestations and the Armenian genocide. It's not the first time the TV5 does that.

[Arpa]

The French chanel TV5 regarding the issue today, spent most of the time dedicated to it, talking about Armenian manifestations and the Armenian genocide. It's not the first time the TV5 does that.

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"TV5" meaning Canada?

That will do us a lot of good 10,000 miles away from the heart of Europe!!

[Arpa]

Did you hear the "mouse roar"?

Look what that little mouse aka Cyprus did.

As little as Cyprus may be as a full member it has the power of veto.

They are talking of compromises, whatever they may be.

Does this mean that Armenia better hurry up and enter the EU before Turkey does, and just like other "little mouse" roar loud enough to force compromises and concessions?

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

 

"Under the agreement, Turkey must issue a written statement promising to sign an accord extending its customs union to the 10 new EU members, including Cyprus.

 

This must be done before the proposed start date for talks of 3 October next year, EU diplomats said.

 

It will mean granting effective recognition to the Greek Cypriot government, but gives Turkey more time to sell the idea to its people."

[DominO123]

"TV5" meaning Canada?

That will do us a lot of good 10,000 miles away from the heart of Europe!!

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TV5 is from France. I know that France is an exception, since the Armenian community is very vocal there.

[nairi]

Well, NOS just plainly ignored it on their 6 o'clock news... They spent at least 15 minutes talking about the whole issue, even following Dutch Turks to Brussels to support their brethren, but not a word about Armenians, a demonstration or the genocide. Disappointingly, BRT (Belgian channel) did the same. I should've watched TV5 instead... Playing in the hands of Turks. But we already knew this.

[Artsakh]

turkey's population if projected to be over 100 million by 2050, and that would make turks the largest ethnic group within the european union, no to mention the freedom turkish citizens will have to travel about the countries of the EU. I don't know, but i see something wrong with this picture. What interest does the EU have in such event? turkey does not have any oil, and relatively few other natural resouces. What is the benefit of having 70 to 100 million savages roam around the civilized streets of europe?

 

i have 2 opinions:

 

1) its either a game played by the US to destroy the European Union and reassert itself as not only the sole military power, but also the sole economic power.

 

2) its a game to destroy turkey. having turkey abide by eurpoean standards would mean turkey has to respect the rights of its minorities (until recently speaking the kurdish langage was banned). granting greater rights to the kurds could prove to be explosive. there are also other issues such as the cyprus conflict, agean sea conflict with greece, the Armenian Genocide, etc..., issues that civilized countries cannot simply turn a blind eye to and deny (as turkey is doing now). if it becomes part of the eu, it cannot avoid such issues, and must answer to them, and the truth can be destructive.

[nairi]

I always knew the Belgians were cooler than the Dutch; or should I say more independent than the Dutch? Whereas the Belgian news (7pm) linked up the demonstration in Brussels well with the rest of their report on Turkey (even going as far as showing footage of the demonstration - a LOT of Armenian flags there..), the Dutch news, both NOS and RTL4 ignored the issue altogether in their evening report.

[nairi]

Belgians rule

 

Check this out: http://www.vrtnieuws.net/nieuwsnet_master/...icht/index.html

 

Go to nieuws, then the fourth one down "2.000 Armeniers betogen tegen Turkse toetreding", and you can view photos and the news report which was shown at 1pm, the one I missed!! Hilda Tchoboian is interviewed in French. The rest is in Flemish, but it's quite short, and for those who want to see some footage.

[Harut]

not to sound cynical, but shouldn't they be waving eu flags? at least one?

[nairi]

They had flags from the different countries they had come from. I saw at least a German and French flag in there somewhere. Anyway, I'm not very fond of flag shows. Let the Turks do that. I don't see why we should, but considering that this whole demonstration was primarily organized by the Dashnaks, it shouldn't be surprising. Plus, the two people that were interviewed are Dashnaks. Tchoboian from France, and that embarrasment Boghossian from Holland. He's the same guy who was on that Twee Vandaag report a while a back.

[Arpa]

Belgians rule

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Hear! Hear!

 

Here is to Belgium, which among others shares the exact size of Yerevan Province(11.000 sq mi).

 

 

Besides the fact that there are records of Armenians in Belgium as far back as the 11th C. Belgium can be credited for giving us a graduate of the Unviversity at Ghent, Daniel Varuzhan the dean of Armenian Poetry, with all due respects to Charents, Sevak et al.

 

The only distinction may be that King Leo(pold/Levon) of Kilikia never owned half of Africa in what was known as the Belgian Congo.

Edited December 17, 2004 by Arpa

[Nakharar]

Nairi,

 

I know a thing or two about Brussels. They should have never chosen the Parc Cinquantenaire as the demonstration venue. It's an imposing site and very close to the EU Commission buildings, but totally marginal to the city center. They could have never haveheld the demonstration inside Brussels since it has a Turkish presence of 100,000 (!).

I don't receive NOS or VRT, but I saw the news report on TV5. I had a sneaking suspicion that they would show these French Armenians. Not that it makes any difference whatsoever.

[Tiggyhonents]

Their position is so weak, those who are playing the Muslim card on the one hand also make it a point to show that 20-30% of French are Muslims, other European countries not far behind.

 

Who is "playing the Muslim card". The only people who are "playing the Muslim card" are those scumbag politicians like Blair who want Turkey in the EU, and who try to silence all opponents by virtually accusing them of racism. I can think of plenty of reasons for refusing Turkish membership - and Islam isn't even close to being on the list.

[Tiggyhonents]

They had flags from the different countries they had come from. I saw at least a German and French flag in there somewhere. Anyway, I'm not very fond of flag shows.

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Maybe the whole EU concept is just a big conspiracy by flag manufacturers. Think about it, now every little one-horse town hall has to have a flag of every EU country in its store, just in case a big-wig from such-and-such a country drops by for a civic reception.

 

And maybe all the recent election trouble in the Ukraine was organized by dye-manufacturers who had a lot of surplus orange dye to dispose of. (And if so, President Kocharyan had better hope that they don't have a big surplus of apricot-colored dye!)

Edited December 17, 2004 by Tiggyhonents

[Stormig]

granting greater rights to the kurds could prove to be explosive.

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I contest that. I am of the opinion that it would be implosive for Kurdish nationalism.

[Stormig]

Whom do you expect me to serve? You? You don't have that much money little girl

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Let's get a little serious here. Predicting the outcome with Turkey with regard to the EU's experience with the former Soviet satellites is absurd.

[Siamanto]

20-30% of French are Muslims, other European countries not far behind.

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Arpa,

With all due respect, I have noticed that you have a natural aversion towards the decimal point! It should be more or less 2.0-3.0 % according to the following!!!

http://www.iiie.net/Intl/PopStats.html

or

http://www.islamicpopulation.com/europe_general.html

 

Where do you get your data?

 

That seems to be a habit! In fact, in a different thread, you have stated

 

Just as Sip posed the question; When did the Beirutsis become such linguists. By now their Armenian is probably 25% Turkish, 25% Arabic, 25% French and English and maybe 25% Armenian.

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while my experience with Armenians from Lebanon shows that - depending on the individual - the percentage of non-Armenian words range between 5%-15%. You probably meant 2.5% instead of 25%!!!!

[Armat]

I was listening to public radio about this subject and some suggested one possible reason for Turkey’s admittance is aging EU populations and shortage of workers. Perhaps it is true that Europe, as we know it will seize to be and the future will be Turkic Europe.

[Tiggyhonents]

I was listening to public radio about this subject and some suggested one possible reason for Turkey’s admittance is aging EU populations and shortage of workers. Perhaps it is true that Europe, as we know it will seize to be and the future will be Turkic Europe.

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That's what you get for listening to public radio! What next - will they tell you the world is actually flat and the moon is made of cheese.

 

Firstly there is massive unemployment all over Europe - tens of millions. Secondly there will be millions more unemployed once the current economically unsustainable retirement age is raised. Thirdly, of course the type of workers that Europe needs more than any other are millions of peasants and part-time labourers whose only expertise is at sheep shagging.

 

But, also of course, anyone who objects to Turkey's membership is doing it because they are racists (according to Blair and co. anyway). No other reasons are possible. They are racists. That's it. Full stop. No further discussion is possible.

 

Volumes of data might be produced to show how Europe as it is now will be destroyed by Turkey's membership - but all that data should obviously be ignored because we all know that the data would have been produced by racists.

 

And since all those who would say "no" must be racists, that is actually a reason to say "yes", and even speed up the process towards that "yes".

 

And nobody can have a vote on the issue, because all those who would vote "no" would of course be racists - and racists can't be allowed to enter politics.

 

And there can't be any presentation of the issues in the media, or any open discussions, because we can't allow platforms for racists and outlets for racist propaganda.

 

Orwell's 1984 was 20 years too early.

Edited December 18, 2004 by Tiggyhonents

[Siamanto]

Siamanto, hargelis, please take a moment and traslate your French posts into English, some members might not have acsess to traslation software such as MS Word.

 

thanks.

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Edward,

Please tell try one of the tools listed on the following thread

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=10483

 

and let me know how satisfactory that is!

Try a Web page translator using the following URL:

http://www.armenews.com/New/news.asp?id_news=6902

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In case, you have difficulties, the following is the result of the translation.

 

Barnier and the genocide with the French National Assembly:

EUROPE, December 15, 2004 - ARMENEWS -. OFFICIAL ANALYTICAL RECORD Of the meeting of December 14, 2004:

The sitting is opened at fifteen hours.

QUESTIONS with the GOVERNMENT

The agenda calls the questions with the Government.

ACCESSION OF TURKEY To The EUROPEAN UNION

Mr. Bernard Deflesselles - on December 17, at the top of the Heads of State and government in Brussels, France will discuss the opening of the negotiations concerning the entry of Turkey in Europe. This prospect worries a very large majority of the French and causes even a sharp opposition which should be taken into account. The debate in progress since months showed that there were two possibilities: either adhesion, afterwards of very long negotiations, or a privileged partnership, solution which seems to have the preference of the French. Yesterday, the council of the general affairs and the foreign relations, Mister the Foreign Minister, you recalled with reason that the European project for more than 50 years had been founded on the respect and the reconciliation between all Europeans and especially between France and Germany, on the reconciliation with oneself. In this spirit, very many voices in France, from which ours, rose to require that the recognition of the Armenian genocide by Turkey constitute a prerequisite to the opening of any negotiation with this country.

Mr. Pierre Lellouche and Mr. Jean Leonetti - Very well!

Mr. Bernard Deflesselles - Europe having done on itself a work of memory, can solemnly require of Turkey to engage it. Beyond the criteria of adhesion worked out by Brussels, there is a moral requirement. I ask you to clarify the conviction of France. (Applause on the benches of the UMP group)

Mr. Michel Barnier, Foreign Minister - Throughout this negotiation, long, difficult, which undoubtedly will open with Turkey, France wants to speak a language of truth. All the questions will be put, all the raised problems, and it will be the case in particular of this tragedy...

Mr. François Rochebloine - This Genocide!

Mr. Michel Barnier, Foreign Minister - I do not forget that your Parliament, unanimously, qualified this tragedy of genocide in 2001. (Some applause on the benches of the UMP group) It will be thus the case of this tragedy in which hundreds of thousands of Armenians were martyrisés.

Us go to pose question of recognition of this tragedy, initially because it is a wound which is not healed for very many French families of Armenian origin, then because this question touches in the heart even European project founded on the reconciliation, with the others, oneself, its history. But it will not be a prerequisite to the opening of the negotiations of adhesion. It will be a question which France will raise in the negotiation, because it is the negotiation which will make it possible Turkey to do this work of memory and to give us an answer and which it will be in any event concluded by a vote of the French. (Applause on the benches of the UMP group

(Continuation) ACCESSION OF TURKEY To The EUROPEAN UNION

Mr. Francois Bayrou - a decision of which we measure all the importance will be made in two days in Brussels concerning the accession of Turkey to the European Union. In spite of the many questions which were put, it is incredible that one is unaware of still all the political line which will be followed by the Government: the debate was refused, the vote was isolated. The Government initially affirmed that it was favorable to adhesion, then we believed to understand that a privileged partnership could be considered and it would seem finally that this option was abandoned. The Foreign Minister declared yesterday that France would require of Turkey the recognition "of the Armenian tragedy of the beginning of the century". But "tragedy" is not "genocide": it is there the sign of the first bending of our country. (Applause on the benches of the UDF group) This morning, the minister moreover announced that there was no question of making this recognition a condition for the opening of negotiations, in the same way with regard to Cyprus: we are thus on the point of opening negotiations with a State which does not recognize one of the Convention countries and which militarily occupy a part of its territory. Such an inconsistency is incomprehensible and prevents our country from weighing on a negotiation whereas we have a right of veto. During this time, the Turkish government shows, him, extremely consequent since its Prime Minister declared that it would not accept any privileged partnership, that it does not recognize the Cypriot government either only the Armenian genocide.

Beyond the pure and simple acceptance of the accession of Turkey under its own conditions and against the feeling of a majority of French, whom does seek the Government through the opening of these negotiations? (Applause on the benches of the UDF group)

Mr. Pierre Lellouche - And, you, whom do you seek, Mr Bayrou?

Mr. Michel Barnier, Foreign Minister - I remind to you that we dialogue with Turkey since 1963. General de Gaulle had then evoked the European vocation this country. Since, no government, including those in which you took part, Mr Bayrou, never called into question this vocation. (Applause on several benches of the UMP group) In 1999, the European Council, in which MISTERS Chirac and Jospin took part, recognized in Turkey a statute of candidate. We are there. Thursday and Friday, indeed, we must decide possible opening of negotiations on the accession of Turkey. It is not absolutely necessary of that, and those which make believe in the French who Turkey will enter tomorrow or the day after tomorrow in the Union do not say the truth. We approach this negotiation with four requirements: sincerity - we will say to the Turks, without showing kindness, which we wish the result of these negotiations -, realism - these negotiations will be long, difficult and we will put all the questions, in particular those of the recognition of the Armenian genocide and Cyprus -, transparency - the Parliament will be regularly informed of the stages of the negotiation -, democracy finally - because they are neither you nor me, Mr Bayrou, who will slice but well the vote of the French people. (Applause on the benches of the UMP group)

Edited December 19, 2004 by Siamanto

[Sasun]

I don't fully understand it either but I think it is a question of bargain and constant power struggle. E.g. U.S. pushes EU to accept Turkey in, EU counterstrikes by saying "OK, Turkey's gonna be in but on our terms". Also, perhaps EU, being cornered, started looking for some positive factors it can squeeze from it seeing that there is no alternative. It is like in aikido. You push me, I back down to the point where your inertion power unbalances you. So, these 15 years of accession is going to be a constant bergain until all sides come to a general consensus. That has been the way to struck deals in Euro-Atlantic community in the good old days. Basically, it is series of different agreements and contratcs, political and economic. But in the end Turkey must come very close to the deals that other members got.

Also, it appears the EU does not want to emerge as a rival to the U.S. but rather as an independent pole (as in the scheme of multipolar world). However, U.S. can view this as rivalry.

 

But you're right, at this point it is difficult to understand weather it was the U.S. push with UK and Eastern European countries being the lobbing tools, or it was a long term strategic decision by France and Germany. One day they say German government is against, the other day the Chancellor starts a strong lobbing campaign to help Turkey in. Confusing.

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Interesting observations. We indeed know very little about what's going on, what's being traded, etc.