DominO123 Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 That is just the kind of simplistic anti US propaganda that people have been screaming for years. Is the geography of where Iraq lies important if not critical for this war? OF COURSE! Is the US out there out of the goodness of it's heart? Of Course NOT. Why would we be? Why would we care what sadam does to his own people and his neighbors. But to say that this war is only motivated by oil, or Israel, or Bush's war mongering, or whatever other simplistic reason is not right. I am sure ALL of those things played a role to different extents. I wonder where Europe and Asia is going to look to next time when some crazy loonatic in Iran, Pakistan, India, or North Korea starts to get a bit too comfortable playing with nuclear lego. And I would definitely fight for this country. I didn't take my citizenship oath as a joke. It was serious to me. On the same token, I voted for Kerry because I seriously dislike Bush, his administration, and their politics. style_images/master/snapback.png Some wondered who should be the next candidate for presidenty for the Democratic party? I propose Sepeahn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) Yah ... sure Sadam didn't have weapons. That's why he was so eager to comply with the UN, the inspectors, and didn't once try to wheasel out of UN resolutions and things he explicitly agreed to. Saying Sadam was no threat (ok maybe not to US but surely to the stability of the region) or didn't have weapons is a lot like saying they hate us for our freedom. It may appeal to the far right or the far left, but to the thinking middle, it sounds a bit like CNN/Al Jazeera propaganda. style_images/master/snapback.png Saddam had weapons, and the US knew it but had no material evidences other than the recieps of the weapons they sold to Saddam. That's how they knew Saddam had weapons, because they sold them. Edited November 20, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 I wonder where Europe and Asia is going to look to next time when some crazy loonatic in Iran, Pakistan, India, or North Korea starts to get a bit too comfortable playing with nuclear lego. style_images/master/snapback.png Of course. Because these countries are too pathetic to save themselves. I'd say: let them suffer for their own stupidity. I mean really. If you can't even tie your own shoes... What can I say. I'm glad you took your oath seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Sip, who installed those lunatics in Iran? Common! When my host (a Perisian immigrant of 1980s) started talking about the 1979 events I couldn't believe what I heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Sip, who installed those lunatics in Iran? Common! When my host (a Perisian immigrant of 1980s) started talking about the 1979 events I couldn't believe what I heard. Who? Are you actually implying that the US "installed" islamic religous fundamentalists in Iran and that Shah was somehow an unacceptable puppet for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Sip, perhaps you are too simplistic to assume that Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis would prefer imposed democracy. It takes a simple observation to note that Americans are hated immensely in Iraq and therefore any government supported by US stands to look illegitimate by Iraqis. Most Americans don't understand Arab mentality and their resolve to overcome what they view as western imperialism. It is not important what we here think about Iraq but rather how Iraqis perceive US invasion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Sip, perhaps you are too simplistic to assume that Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis would prefer imposed democracy. It takes a simple observation to note that Americans are hated immensely in Iraq and therefore any government supported by US stands to look illegitimate by Iraqis. If the US is really that hated, let them vote for Sadam! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 America is another Turkey that pretends to be above Turkey. Actually, it doesn't even pretend. It's best friends with Turkey... That's why they are both clutz-clutz! All I care about is a strong Dollar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted November 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 That's why they are both clutz-clutz! All I care about is a strong Dollar! style_images/master/snapback.png With the U.S. debt bigger than ever, it's deficit spending, and the dollar slowly sinking, this Iraq fiasco can prove the back breaker for the empire, like Afghanistan was for the Soviet Union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted November 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 I believe that the world is basically split into two. About half is modern and developed, and the other half is still more or less in the stone age (not just in terms of material things but also mentality). The Islamic world forms a large part of that less developed world. One major reason is Islamic fundamentalism itself, which is simply not meant to thrive in the 21st century. Furthermore Islamic fundamentalism by definition cannot sustain progress, and apparantely tries to suppress it wherever it appears. (Christianity had this problem too during the Inquisition but fortunately it was overcome etc.) But Islam is 10 times as fanatical. The only thing that can help those fools get out of that stone age ironically is joining the rest of the developed world and adopting it's ideals. (Not praying to Allah five times a day). So in that case modern ideals have to be imposed upon them. When a society upholds that blowing yourself up will take you to paradise there is something FUNDAMETALLY WRONG with that society. We have to drag them out of the 12th century into the 21st, because otherwise they want to drag us out of the 21st into the 12th? Which do you think is better? style_images/master/snapback.png Just who are you to decide what other people can or can't do? Have you met all Muslims to deem Islam as fundamentalist? If someone wants to blow themselves up for a cause they believe is worth it, who are you to tell them they are wrong? To them they obviously believe deeply that American imperialism must be stopped, and rightfully so. It is their land, their country, and their religion. My guess is you would not like it if someone tried to impose their dogmas on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Who? Are you actually implying that the US "installed" islamic religous fundamentalists in Iran and that Shah was somehow an unacceptable puppet for them? style_images/master/snapback.png I am not implying that, I said it. If Shah was left there Iran would be a VERY developed and independent regional power by now. It would act independent in it foreign policy as well. Sip, don't tell me you never heard this from your Iranian friends (surely if you have them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 I don't buy it. The Shah was greatest friends with USA and Israel. Iran is becoming a major player anyway. They will become a serious power in the middle east and no ammount of bitching, moaning, and threatening from Israel will stop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 I don't buy it. style_images/master/snapback.png Skhara, how about a discount? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiner Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Just who are you to decide what other people can or can't do? Have you met all Muslims to deem Islam as fundamentalist? If someone wants to blow themselves up for a cause they believe is worth it, who are you to tell them they are wrong? To them they obviously believe deeply that American imperialism must be stopped, and rightfully so. It is their land, their country, and their religion. My guess is you would not like it if someone tried to impose their dogmas on you. style_images/master/snapback.png This is just like saying "Who am I to decide that a murderer should be punished". Or do you think all murderers should go free because they actually believed in what they were doing, despite hurting others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 ....I remember watching a doco on CIA involvement in Afghanistan a little while ago. Saw some footage of a CIA guy, dressed in Afghan clothes - hat and all - giving a little 'pep talk' (in English with a translator) to a bunch of mujahadeen leaders. Cant recall much of the content, only that God (Allah) was mentioned very frequently....you reap what you sow. style_images/master/snapback.png I remember a scene with President Jimmy Carter's National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brezinski speaking to some Afghan mujahedeen in Pakistan extolling them that they and the US are fighting against the same enemy the "godless" Communists. I remember getting sick to my stomach after hearing that. Brezinski was in fact the main architect of the "Green Belt" policy advocating the establishment loyal Islamic oriented dictatorships, which would suffocate the USSR. There was nothing surprising in that. It was just a continuation of the containment policy started by the US at the beginning of the Cold War. Proof tested in Latin America in the 60s and 70s with great success. What is surprising is what this Polish right-winger was doing in the administration of the "most socialist of them all" President Carter. Well Carter had to something to fend off the criticism against him. He was just putting the good old Hegelian dialectic into practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiner Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 The bottom line is it is the rest of the world that needs to join the 21st century, not the modern world going backwards. Those that want to stop progress and impose medival society on the whole civilization should be destroyed. And I don't care about ideological s**t. It's that simple. The whole world should not go back in time and development after taking so long to get to this 21st century stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Are you sure it is not the other way around (the "Islamic civilization" bent on creating a war against the Western one)? style_images/master/snapback.png Do you also believe that the reason the 'terrorists hate us' is because of our 'freedom and democracy'? style_images/master/snapback.png Exactly! The US has only started to pay the price for all the damage and injustice they have caused. 9/11 is a point in case. There is much more to come. Those who have no outlet to express their outrage will resort to such measures. Next time it won't be airplanes that will hit the States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Shiner do you think Europe is 12th century place too? Your ignorance is striking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiner Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 No Europe is definitely NOT 12th century, and that is why it could be another potential target for the Islamists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 (edited) No Europe is definitely NOT 12th century, and that is why it could be another potential target for the Islamists. If not directly, then indirectly as even polulation wise, europeans are losing ground very fast. Bill Maher said it best once ... that we are so used to tolerance, that we are starting to tolerate intolerance. "Everyone is different" ... sure. But there are also things that are better. Democracy rather than Dictatorship ... better; Freedom of choice rather than fundamentalist religion ... better; Relying on thought rather than sticking your ass up when praying to God ... Better. (Bill didn't say some of this stuff) Those europeans better wake up soon and realize all the progress made in the last couple of centuries is SERIOUSLY at risk with this fundamental religious yahoos spreading their message of ignorance and hate. ... "God, please save me from your followers." Edited November 21, 2004 by Seapahn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Nice speech Sip. But Muslim terrorists are funded mainly by Saudy Arabia, which sells oil to the U.S. and it U.S.'s BEST FRIEND. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 (edited) Things aren't as simple as they seem. We don't live in a Abush world where there is only black or white. I'm sure that the jihadists are too busy to contemplate the subjugation of Europe. I don't think that theirs is a backlash against modernity as such, but one against American cultural and economic domination (read: Globalization) for which there is no resistance possible. You should fear the American onslaught more, which permeates everywhere and is all encompassing, unlike the fundamentalist reaction. Afterall who would want to emulate the "lifestyle" of these desert dwellers. The US is too thick to understand that their unabashed support for Israel and backing up repressive Middle Eastern regimes has only excasberated this adverse reaction. One might compare this situation to the last days of the Roman empire, where previously insignificant "Barbarians" brought about its end. In the end the wrath of the seemingly little peoples will be their final undoing. Edited November 21, 2004 by Nakharar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 The bottom line is it is the rest of the world that needs to join the 21st century, not the modern world going backwards. Those that want to stop progress and impose medival society on the whole civilization should be destroyed. And I don't care about ideological s**t. It's that simple. The whole world should not go back in time and development after taking so long to get to this 21st century stage. style_images/master/snapback.png Personally I don't care how backward and primitive they are as long as they keep it out of civilised nations. Armen, I am thinking about the discount proposal, but i'm still having a hard time buying it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Armen, I am thinking about the discount proposal, but i'm still having a hard time buying it . style_images/master/snapback.png OK Skhara, I will apply a different marketing strategy This a an article from Le Mond in Russian. http://www.inosmi.ru/stories/01/06/28/3008/214766.html The Iranian events are also mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 The real face of war is always the same, that is why starting a war is wrong. This seems like a simple thing, however many people will find bogus reasons to make it look like a complex thing where war turns out to be a good thing, and on top of that also "blessed" by God, if not by God then by a fake ideology such as "promoting democracy in the world", "freeing proletars of the world", etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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