Armen Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Animals don't need social life, humans need it. If left alone humans become animals. Necessity of sharing may be another difference between us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 (edited) Animals don't need social life... Armen I disagree. There are some VERY social animals and then there are the loners. Elephants for example form quite strong families. They help each other. They care and protect each other. They also mourn the death of other family members. They have AMAZING memories and often show good problem solving skills. Yes, I have watched a lot of discovery channel and can say this confidently. Gevo, regarding what makes me, "me". It's obviously my brain. Also, if you have ever had a pet dog or a cat, you will know that each and every one of them is very different and has a distinct personality ... distinct likes, dislikes, behavioral patterns, etc. So I don't think what makes me, "Sip", is any different than what makes my cat, "milosh". Anyone heard of coco the gorilla that can communicate using sign language? This isn't basic meow when you're hungry or bark when you found the bomb in a suitcase communication ... she can actually communicate fairly sophistimicated things (for a gorilla). Edited November 1, 2004 by Seapahn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Armen I disagree. There are some VERY social animals and then there are the loners. Elephants for example form quite strong families. They help each other. They care and protect each other. They also mourn the death of other family members. They have AMAZING memories and often show good problem solving skills. Yes, I have watched a lot of discovery channel and can say this confidently. style_images/master/snapback.png Sip, I am not saying they don't have emotions. They come in groups for hunting and protection. Humans however come in groups without any rationale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Actually Koko knows some 800 words in sign and can even do basic math Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Also if you think that Animals cant think make a hard puzzle somehow and put a walnut at the end and see how squirrel figure out how to get those walnuts. You will be amazed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted November 5, 2004 Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 sophistimicated things (for a gorilla). style_images/master/snapback.png exactly.. for a gorrilla.. lol.. Why are we surpsrised when we here about animals behaving certain ways though.. why is it surprising (or not ordinary) for an elephant to be social and travel in a pack or learn commands etc.. Harut, what im saying is that though we can never tell from an animals perspective obviously, i do not see any connections that are significant enough to compare humans to animals.. not physically,, just mentally/mental capacity... and also that animals are limitted in their knowledge, and the kinds of thigns they can learn.. another ting that i want to point out, anything that we teach dogs, and cats, and gorrilas for that matter, has to due with something physical, some physical action, some physical item that is directly connected to how they are reacting.. what im trying to say is, they dont have the capacity to distinguish complex thaught... for the most part, most animals are completely aware of their self survival, and in some cases the survival of their pack (the pack can be a dog protecting its owners) What sets us apart is our knowledge of destiny, and ability to negotiate. and whatever else iv said above. haha BTW Azat, how does koko due math? is it not by counting physical items or something?.. if koko can comprehend the number one, and what it really means.. and then add it to the number 2, and understand how that 2 +1=3, then.. (as they say in armenian "akanges ke ktrem" ) hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 6, 2004 Report Share Posted November 6, 2004 (edited) Actually Koko knows some 800 words in sign and can even do basic math style_images/master/snapback.png Why has he an Armenian name? Edited November 6, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 6, 2004 Report Share Posted November 6, 2004 exactly.. for a gorrilla.. lol.. Why are we surpsrised when we here about animals behaving certain ways though.. why is it surprising (or not ordinary) for an elephant to be social and travel in a pack or learn commands etc.. Harut, what im saying is that though we can never tell from an animals perspective obviously, i do not see any connections that are significant enough to compare humans to animals.. not physically,, just mentally/mental capacity... and also that animals are limitted in their knowledge, and the kinds of thigns they can learn.. another ting that i want to point out, anything that we teach dogs, and cats, and gorrilas for that matter, has to due with something physical, some physical action, some physical item that is directly connected to how they are reacting.. what im trying to say is, they dont have the capacity to distinguish complex thaught... for the most part, most animals are completely aware of their self survival, and in some cases the survival of their pack (the pack can be a dog protecting its owners) What sets us apart is our knowledge of destiny, and ability to negotiate. and whatever else iv said above. haha BTW Azat, how does koko due math? is it not by counting physical items or something?.. if koko can comprehend the number one, and what it really means.. and then add it to the number 2, and understand how that 2 +1=3, then.. (as they say in armenian "akanges ke ktrem" ) hahaha style_images/master/snapback.png Abstract thinking is the product of an evolved brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 (edited) Abstract thinking is the product of an evolved brain. style_images/master/snapback.png abstract thinking is the product of smart design, devine intelligence.. Evolution fails for me quite easily, when we realize that animals who are known to have roamed this earth, BEFORE humans, which are still around do not have the capability of the amount of thinking that we do.. how do you explain evolution only effecting human inteligence and not an aligator's or such? this is a rediculous idea. This is not an evolution thread, but I would like to add as more time passes by, more so called 'professors' of evolution lose faith in this theory, if you want a list i can provide you of one. But it should not be necessary, it is simple to see that evolution as mentioned here is full of falasies.. and bs. Edited November 12, 2004 by gevo27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 So you say evolution doesn't explain why an aligator is so stupid, but the creation model explains it? Why would God make a stupid animal like the aligator? Also, if God is so perfect, why didn't he make the humans perfect? How come we still have so many flaws? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Also, if God is so perfect, why didn't he make the humans perfect? How come we still have so many flaws? style_images/master/snapback.png Humans have the potential to become perfect. That's more interesting than not having a choice and being created perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Why would God make a stupid animal like the aligator? style_images/master/snapback.png Why not? If not for other reasons, it is a good idea for variety to have such animals as aligators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Why not? If not for other reasons, it is a good idea for variety to have such animals as aligators. But doesn't variety support the evolution model a lot more than the creation model? Why would god create 1000 different 4-appendaged animals (4 legs/hands) with 2 eyes and 2 ears and one mouth with teeth and similar organs that all seem to share common roots? You are seriously asking an intelligent person to believe that an intelligent force created the lion and the tiger and the dog and the cat separately, or is it REALLY very difficult to see that there is just something oddly similar among all of them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Sip, I am sure if we ask the biologists they will explain why is aligator so important in the complex world of the environment it exists. I am certain that it has some characteristics that are irreplaceable. Also, I was reading ... Did you notice how human being is enginered in terms of his organs. The organs of digestion and reproduction are at the lower part of the body, then there are kidneys, liver and all those organs, then come a group of more noble organs like heart and lungs and then there is the king, the brain. Lot of smart design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 But doesn't variety support the evolution model a lot more than the creation model? Why would god create 1000 different 4-appendaged animals (4 legs/hands) with 2 eyes and 2 ears and one mouth with teeth and similar organs that all seem to share common roots? You are seriously asking an intelligent person to believe that an intelligent force created the lion and the tiger and the dog and the cat separately, or is it REALLY very difficult to see that there is just something oddly similar among all of them? style_images/master/snapback.png God created the evolution law along with all other laws. So, your question could be understood as why God created such a law that would create such a stupid animal as aligator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Take a dumb cow, make it stand up. It's not hard to see a lot of organs in the cow are pretty much where they would be in a human. Eyes, ears, mouth, tongue, lungs, sex organs, hands, feet ... we even have what used to be a tail. Ok granted cows have 4 stomachs but still I look at a human and a cow, and being a programmer, I see a common object from which both were derived (object oriented software engineers will know what I'm talking about) Now about the importance of things existing in an environment ... the higher up in the food chain you go, the more useless the creatures become in the grand scheme of things. And yes, that would make the humans pretty damn useless (if not actually quite parasitic) on earth. I'm sure this doesn't sound like something the creationist subscribers want to hear ... but just take a look around! The earth and the ecosystems existed quite well for loooooooooong before the humans showed up and didn't at all depend on us. We're just like a mold spreading on this planet ... and worst of all, we run around thinking our sh!t don't stink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 God created the evolution law along with all other laws. Ahahahaah !!!! Like that one. God created evolution. Sasun, you're a smart man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Take a dumb cow, make it stand up. It's not hard to see a lot of organs in the cow are pretty much where they would be in a human. Eyes, ears, mouth, tongue, lungs, sex organs, hands, feet ... we even have what used to be a tail. Ok granted cows have 4 stomachs but still I look at a human and a cow, and being a programmer, I see a common object from which both were derived (object oriented software engineers will know what I'm talking about) Well, I am not saying cows are designed wrongly. After all they are Gods creatures. I am just saying look how smart is the design of everyone Now about the importance of things existing in an environment ... the higher up in the food chain you go, the more useless the creatures become in the grand scheme of things. And yes, that would make the humans pretty damn useless (if not actually quite parasitic) on earth. I'm sure this doesn't sound like something the creationist subscribers want to hear ... but just take a look around! The earth and the ecosystems existed quite well for loooooooooong before the humans showed up and didn't at all depend on us. We're just like a mold spreading on this planet ... and worst of all, we run around thinking our sh!t don't stink. style_images/master/snapback.png Exactly, so the whole fight between the God and the Satan is for the human being not to become a parasite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 I don't think the design of a human is particularly smart. Sure there's a lot of cool things in there but it's faaaar from smart. For one thing, I could definitely use another hand ... especially while on the net. For another thing, what's with the stupid wisdom teeth? I have to go have another one pulled out. Why don't I have an eye in the back of my head and how come I can only see this tiny portion of the electromagnetic spectrum we happen to call "visible" light? Why can't I see infrared/ultraviolet like Geordi Laforge could do in Star Trek? Why are my hearing and smell so limited? Why don't I have a movable flap that I can use to close my own ears on an airplane with screaming kids in the back seat? How come I dislocated both my knees when playing basketball? How come the patela tendons were so weak? Why are there so many diseases? Why can't I spend more than 30 seconds under water? How come when I swim, my nose and ears fill with water? Why are my fingers and hands so limited in their range of motion? Shall I keep going? I would be very surprised if anyone tries to argue that the human body is anywhere NEAR perfection. Actually, if a human is the best God could do, I am rather disappointed... really ... I mean after all the cool stuff he did with the universe and the atoms and physics and electricity and magnetism ... come on! why make the human that is in his "own image" so retarded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 And one more thing .. the reason we have been able to do so much is not because we could do it ourselves! no ... it was because we were smart enough to figure out how to make tools that would allow us to do the things we couldn't do. But let's not get carried away thinking we are that good and also let's not be fooled thinking our minds are anything too spectacular. Sure we are the best things we have seen ... but our minds are also pretty pathetic when you think is this really the best God could do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 So you say evolution doesn't explain why an aligator is so stupid, but the creation model explains it? Why would God make a stupid animal like the aligator? Also, if God is so perfect, why didn't he make the humans perfect? How come we still have so many flaws? style_images/master/snapback.png no comment on your aligator argument, no substance... your second arguement. ill make sure to ask him when time comes.. perhaps you shouold try to ask him yourself..... (actualyl there is aperfectly good explanation for that. rather simple too.. and you allready know it more or les.. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nané Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Why are my hearing and smell so limited? They are as limited as you believe them to be. Why don't I have a movable flap that I can use to close my own ears on an airplane with screaming kids in the back seat? You don't need a flap. If you try hard enough you can block out the noise around you. How come I dislocated both my knees when playing basketball? How come the patela tendons were so weak? Because you were thinking (in your subconscious) that you may dislocate your knees. Your tendons were weak because you thought of them being weak. Why are there so many diseases? Now this one has couple of answers. I'll name the 2 instrumental: population control & economic profit. On a spiritual level: they exist because we have wished (believed, thought) them into existence. Why can't I spend more than 30 seconds under water? You can, only if you believe (truly believe) that you can. How come when I swim, my nose and ears fill with water? Physics. (can't argue with physics) Why are my fingers and hands so limited in their range of motion? For your own safety (and the safety of others). Shall I keep going? I would be very surprised if anyone tries to argue that the human body is anywhere NEAR perfection. Actually, if a human is the best God could do, I am rather disappointed... really ... I mean after all the cool stuff he did with the universe and the atoms and physics and electricity and magnetism ... come on! why make the human that is in his "own image" so retarded? style_images/master/snapback.png Well, Sip, I have come to believe that the human body WAS perfect when first created. Most of the things we complain of, we (i.e. humanity in general) have brought upon ourselves. Here's a quote from Neale Donald Walsch: "What you most fear is what will most plague you. Fear will draw it to you like a magnet." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 If you try hard enough you can block out the noise around you. I found that a $30 pair of sony ear-plug type headphones and an mp3 player can do wonders in that department! Which reminds me that I wish God had put in mp3 playback capabilities in our brains with several memory interfaces like compactlfash, SD card, and sony stick. Well, Sip, I have come to believe that the human body WAS perfect when first created. Most of the things we complain of, we (i.e. humanity in general) have brought upon ourselves. For the record, even though I sounded like it, I am not complaining one bit. Just saying I would have expected more from a God that is able to put the heavens and the earth and cosmos (and if you ask Domino, multiple universes and vacuum bubbles) in motion. But you have introduced an entire new dimension into this thread which is faaaaaaar beyond my understanding. I tend to be very practical in my approach to understanding my environment. I touch, feel, experience, learn, explore, and then start to believe. Now you are telling me those beliefs influence what I experience and feel ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nané Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 (edited) Just saying I would have expected more from a God that is able to put the heavens and the earth and cosmos (and if you ask Domino, multiple universes and vacuum bubbles) in motion. style_images/master/snapback.png Well, you see, that's part of the problem. We are not the direct products of God's creation. We have altered our selves. We have made choices (some good, some bad) that have brought us to this state of being. That's why we should be disappointed at our own selves, not at God Now you are telling me those beliefs influence what I experience and feel ... style_images/master/snapback.png You know how I know this to be true? When I see ordinary humans doing extraordinary things (that defy laws of the established sciences). Edited November 12, 2004 by Sulamita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 We are perfect in our imperfection because, again, if we would be perfect there would be nothing to seek, no necessity to make efforts, nothing to develop etc. Just plain apathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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