Ronald Suny On Kocharian And Artsakh

[Armen]

"ROBERT KOCHARIAN CANNOT RESOLVE Artsax ISSUE," US POLITICAL SCIENTIST CONSIDERS

 

27.10.2004 15:40

 

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Political scientist, University of Chicago Professor

Ronald Suny considers that Armenian President Robert Kocharian "cannot

resolve the Artsax issue." The scientist stated it when commenting on

the act of terrorism taken place in the Armenian Parliament in 1999.

"These events were a tragedy for Armenia, the entire Caucasus and

even the former Soviet Union, - the political scientist noted. -

Without those people kind of a stagnation touched the region and the

solution of the important problems." Answering the BBC question on who

could have organized the crime, Suny said: "It seems to me that it was

an action by a plotter group. There were people who became stronger

after it, but this was the consequence, not the cause of the crime."

[Armen]

http://www.azg.am/?lang=AR&num=2004102802

[MSHAK]

Didnt Suni say, "Azerbaijani flag should fly upon government buildings of Stepanakert" ?

 

What moral right, after this, does that idiot have to talk about Artsakh's possible solution?

[Armen]

I don't think the issue is morality here. He represents a certain political thinking - realpolitik realizm - which should alert some people in Yerevan. And it will.

[MJ]

Didnt Suni say, "Azerbaijani flag should fly upon government buildings of Stepanakert" ?

 

What moral right, after this, does that idiot have to talk about Artsakh's possible solution?

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Would you be honest enough to provide an exact quote and reference on what Suny has said, where and when?

 

As to him being an idiot, I know him well, and he sure is far from being an idiot. Furthermore, I think a brief glancing at this thread, and that only at the level of the avatars, may more adequately reveal who the idiot here is.

[DominO123]

Would you be honest enough to provide an exact quote and reference on what Suny has said, where and when?

 

As to him being an idiot, I know him well, and he sure is far from being an idiot. Furthermore, I think a brief glancing at this thread, and that only at the level of the avatars, may more adequately reveal who the idiot here is.

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The only quote that is near what he refers to that I remember of has been published in the Middle East Policy Volume VII, October 1999, Number 1., Armenia and Azerbaijan: Thinking a Way Out of Artsax. Written by David D. Laitin and Robert Grigor Suny.

 

Here is the quote:

 

The symbolic sovereignty of Azerbaijan over Artsax would be represented by an Azerbaijani flag flying over the government house in Artsax and the appointment of an Azerbaijani representative to Artsax, who would have to be approved by the Artsax government. The formal aspect of sovereignty entails that Azerbaijan represent Artsax in the United Nations and other international bodies.

 

The full article can by found here.

 

http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/journal_vol..._laitinsuny.asp

 

If Suny said exactly what has been quoted by MSHAK, like you can read from the article, it is selectiviness... because what is proposed is only Symbolic, and in practical Karabagh will have its own Armenian government(from Sunys proposition).

Edited October 28, 2004 by Fadix

[Azat]

MJ Sent me this via IM and asked that I post on the forum.

 

MJ, I am not 100% sure if this is the thread you wanted to post this at as I did not see the thread on your IM and I have not been following this stuff much lately. Sorry if it is the wrong place

I am sitting here for jury duty and have nothing better  to do. So, I may very well respond.

 

That article has been published in 1999. Most likely, it has been submitted at least in late 1998.  At that time,the mainstream political thought in Armenia had come to a dead end.  in a way, at the time, Ron's proposal was being discussed at various levels, including the leadership of Armenia and Karabagh, and among them, some of the highest profile "heroes" of our days. It was something generally acceptable to a significant portion of Armenians, and was driven by a cost/benefit analysis.

 

At the time there was only one relatively small  political entity in Armenia, which was advocating that the path of the solution of Karabagh problem goes through independence of Armenia and undesirable but unavoidable war. That political entity was considered to consist of "extremists, radicals  and unrealistic dreamers" almost by all segments of Armenian political thought. History has shown that they were the ones advocating (and executing) the only realistic and morally justifiable solution.

 

Therefore, I would propose to not ventilate, keep quite and find other forms of shaping personal identity - not at the expense of other, especially honorable people.

[MJ]

Yes, Azat. Thanks. My device was failing to post it.

[gamavor]

The symbolic sovereignty of Azerbaijan over Artsax would be represented by an Azerbaijani flag flying over the government house in Artsax and the appointment of an Azerbaijani representative to Artsax, who would have to be approved by the Artsax government. The formal aspect of sovereignty entails that Azerbaijan represent Artsax in the United Nations and other international bodies.

 

This quote is taken out of the context. Suny is not an Idiot, he is American.

 

Yeah, me to thinks Texas better to be returned to Mexico. Cali too should go back to Mexico, or at least the Mexican flag should fly along with the American.

 

On a more seirous note: Why the hell Americans should stick their noses to everything?

 

PS: The quote is from a book dealing with the MIddle East. Would anyone voluteer to give Mr. Suly some geography lessons?

[MJ]

Better to be American than quintessential Eastern European bigot - if we are to use a soft language.

[gamavor]

Well, honestly I don't know what is better? However, the Mexican flag flying over Texas and California has lot more legitemacy than Azery flag over Karabagh.

[MJ]

Well, honestly I don't know what is better? However, the Mexican flag flying over Texas and California has lot more legitemacy than Azery flag over Karabagh.

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I have noticed that as you grow older, you know less and less, and the quality of your thinking and conduct becomes repulsive.

[gamavor]

I have noticed that as you grow older, you know less and less, and the quality of your thinking and conduct becomes repulsive.

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That doesn't answer my question about the Mexican flag.

[MJ]

I don’t like sleazing things down nor responding to such attempts.

[gamavor]

Fair enough. If this statement (Suny's) was made by an Armenian government representative or some other political or academia representative of Republic of Armenia it could have been very interesting to look at it as a interesting solution to the problem.

[MJ]

As I said earlier, such scenario has been actively discussed at various levels consisting of individuals in the current and previous Armenian governments at the highest levels, including some holding opposite views today. Therefore, Suny should not be made the scapegoat of such theoretical scenario. He is a scientist. He speaks to an academic audience and political analysts, primarily. He does not speak to the troops nor is trying to lead political movement or feed it.

 

He is a very competent scholar, even if one may not necessarily agree with all his views, an individual of great qualities and courage, who doesn’t get intimidated by the army of Armenian mediocrities who have not yet had enough of their Armenian blood drinking frenzy.

[gamavor]

This scenario is nothing new, but rather well forgotten NOT WORKING solution that dates back to the Berlin Congress. Such scenario has temporary positive effect (until the oil is extracted) and then again the parties to the conflict are to "face" more permanent solution.

 

The Berlin Congress established protectorate of the Ottoman Empire over Eastern Rumelia, where the High Port had her chief Governor who was approved by the other side. It lasted exactly 10 years when the people of East Rumelia realized that they don't need anybody’s protectorate and are able and willing to live as free individuals in a free land.

[MJ]

That may very well be true.

 

I am not going to defend a position, which I have disagreed then and disagree now. However, it is a legitimate position and other than it would've not worked in our situation, there was nothing fundamentally wrong with it for the time being from a moral or whatever similar perspective.

 

As far as the "oil" is concerned, I would not dignify even a response [beyond this disclaimer] to such an argument.

[Armen]

... there was nothing fundamentally wrong with it for the time being from a moral or whatever similar perspective.

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I think it has always been too risky because of non existing guarantees.

[gamavor]

Lets face it. The oil is one of the reasons of such artificial scenarios. Peace, for the most part throughout the human history has never been a goal or purpose for the sake of peace.

 

My simple wish is that the people of Artzakh (Nagorno Karabagh, both Armenians and Azeri Turks) find ways to re-establish the trust and mutual respect among them. I also wish that soon rather than later an ethnic Azeri would be much more loyal to his Armenian Homeland (same goes for the Kurds) rather than to his ethnic origins. My wish is that people of Artzakh would be wise enough to forgive the trespassing of their Azeri neighbors and invite them back to build their own mutual state, which won’t be Armenian nor Azeri. Where the official language will be the Armenian with all rights for the Azeris to have their cultural freedoms, where tax collection and government duties would only benefit Artzakh and where a strong army would be guarantor of their freedoms under only one flag – the one of Artzakh.

[MJ]

You are talking about your wishes? Does it mean it may work? I highly doubt anything of the kind for a couple of decades to come.

 

So Suny also wanted and wished some solution, which would not lead to a future bloodshed. He might’ve been wrong or the history may prove him right. Who is to tell it today? After all, doesn't everything regarding the future depend on one's perspective, solely, until the "Monday morning quarterbacking starts?"

[Armen]

From another perspective, Suny's statment may be directed at helping Kocharian to make some tough decisions he faces now.

[MJ]

By the way, when I said "At the time there was only one relatively small political entity in Armenia," earlier, I meant to say, "There were times there was only one relatively small political entity in Armenia,..."

[MJ]

From another perspective, Suny's statment may be directed at helping Kocharian to make some tough decisions he faces now.

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I don't think so. I don't think there is lost love between them. Besides, just the mere name of Suny will mobilize an army of hysterics, some of them my former friends, who would resist to anything that comes from Ron's moth - even the most rational thought.

[Armen]

I don't think so.  I don't think there is lost love between them.  Besides, just the mere name of Suny will mobilize an army of hysterics, some of them my former friends, who would resist to anything that comes from Ron's moth - even the most rational thought.

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I ment to say "help" and I don't think it is connected with Karabagh problem specifically but represents a bigger regional perspective.