Western Armenian's Inevitable Demise?

[Gor-Gor]

Hello everyone.

 

I'm new to the board, though I've been coming here on and off for a few months. Before I make my first post, let me introduce myself!

 

I was born (and live) in Los Angeles to immigrant parents. They are both ethnic Armenian, born and raised in Syria (though only my mom was raised in an Armenian-speaking home), so I speak Western Armenian. I also attended one of the Armenian day schools here in LA for 14 years, so I can read and write as well. Over the last several years, I've become increasingly interested in the Armenian culture, specifically the language. I love learning about its history and dialects and all that good stuff. Okay, it's kind of an obsession!!! lol I read the Armenian paper daily, I read Armenian books, etc.

 

Which leads to the point of my post...Part of my passion is fueled by the realization that the Western Armenian dialect specifically is nearing the end of its existence.

 

While Eastern Armenian has a state/government to support its longevity, the Western dialect has no such protection. Instead, speakers are scattered across the globe -- which isn't the problem in and of itself. Many languages survive without being state languages. The problem is -- assimilation.

 

In the West, I fear Armenian (both dialects) will no longer be used in just a few generations' time. Armenian youth in the USA, Canada, South America, Europe, even Turkey -- they have trouble maintaining the ability to speak (let alone read and write) Armenian. I was born in the US to immigrant parents and, even though I wish and I try to speak Armenian more often and better than English, it just doesn't happen. US-born Armenian youth speak English with friends, cousins, etc. And I suspect this is the same in all Western countries. And even though I had Armenian-language education for 14 years, my English capabilties are still stronger and English is still my more dominant language.

 

The only place that I see hope for the Western dialect is in the communities of the Middle East (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq). There, assimilation is either nonexistent or very, very slow, due to reasons I'm not entirely sure of (possibilties: they don't feel they have to or want to assimilate into a Muslim society; the countries are not as globalized; they are geographically and emotionally closer to the facts of the Genocide, etc). In any event, the new Armenian generations in the Middle-East speak Armenian all the time (and with what ease and quality!). Arabic remains a second language, or at least equal along with Armenian.

 

But is this enough? Will the Middle East Armenian community be able to sustain and maintain the language? Will the communities themselves remain?

 

That is why I have a proposal (you knew I had to be going somewhere, didn't you? lol): Establish schools, libraries, organizations, fellowships, SOMETHING in Armenia to protect the future of the Western dialect. Perhaps creating the option of studying Western Armenian as a foreign language? Or establishing a (private) school that instructs primarily in Western Armenian, like the Armenian schools across the US and Middle East, perhaps for Diasporan Armenians to send their children to should they move back to Armenia?

 

Or is it futile? Will Western Armenian speakers in Armenia simply "assimilate" into the Eastern dialect as occurred decades ago during the "nerkaght"?

 

Do any of you have any thoughts on this? Am I a bit extreme in my worries? (perhaps!! lol) Is it a useless battle to fight? Has the war already been lost?

 

(I want to end this with a disclaimer -- I have nothing, absolutely nothing against the Eastern dialect. In fact, I'm trying to learn verb conjugation in EA. My concern is simply with trying to secure the Western dialect, as it is very disconcerting and saddening to see it die a slow death in America and elsewhere, especially since it survived through the Genocide. Just another step on the road to the end of the "jermag chart.")

[Maral]

Gor-Gor,paree yegahr (adorable username too!,that's what the Barsgahyes used to call us in school,and we called them...I'll leave that for another time)

 

Interesting topic you chose to introduce yourself with,I don't think it's going to be a popular concept though.I'm from Lebanon btw,and I really never thought that we'ld have to create ways to keep our dialect going.I assumed it just would.

And the majority of the diaspora wants to make sure EVERYTHING is Eastern Armenian,I can't say I totally disagree,but I also don't think it'll happen.

 

Anyways...welcome....

Edited October 11, 2004 by Maral

[Anileve]

That is why I have a proposal (you knew I had to be going somewhere, didn't you? lol): Establish schools, libraries, organizations, fellowships, SOMETHING in Armenia to protect the future of the Western dialect. Perhaps creating the option of studying Western Armenian as a foreign language? Or establishing a (private) school that instructs primarily in Western Armenian, like the Armenian schools across the US and Middle East, perhaps for Diasporan Armenians to send their children to should they move back to Armenia?

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

How do you suggest we go about executing your proposal? You got a petition to sign? Welcome by the way....

[Gor-Gor]

Maral: Merci! (Ohh, am I gonna get killed for that one? ) Yeah, I had no idea people called us "gor-gor" until I befriended a barsgahay. I think it's a funny caricature of our speech.

 

You know, I never thought we'd have to "try" to keep our dialect going either. I was raised in a very *Armenian* family. Although my dad's kertasdan is somewhat assimilated (many speak Arabic as a first language, even though they may know Armenian), my dad himself is very proud of being Armenian. He was raised with absolutely no Armenian, but he learned the language when he married my mom, he even took lessons to learn to read and write. We grew up speaking a jumbled mix of English, Armenian, and Arabic with him. And my mom's side speaks lots and lots of Armenian -- even the younger generation, to an extent. Plus, much of my mom's side is still in Syria, so we've had to use Armenian to communicate with our cousins there. I was also surrounded with WA all through school. Point being, WA was always so present around me, that its future was a foregone conclusion -- of course it would continue. And then came my realization...lol

 

So you were born in Lebanon? When did you immigrate (emigrate?) here? What has been your experience with language issues? (I told you, I'm obsessed! )

 

Interesting you mention that the Diaspora wants to make EA the 'official' language of the Diaspora. Its understandable, since much of the new arrivals in the West speak Eastern Armenian. I'm sure EA outnumbers WA in the Diaspora nowadays. But still, I feel like my dialect is some kind of a bastard child. We used to have the Horizon 24-hour Armenian channel, and more than 90% of the time, it was EA that was being used. I can understand their target audience is Glendale. But surely they can accomodate us a little bit!

 

Anileve: Thanks for the welcome. No, I don't have a petition that you can sign.

 

My proposal was just an idea that I've been floating around in my head. In Southern California, most of the Armenian high schools are run by the "Arachnortaran" of the Western Prelacy (Arm. Apost. Church), for which reason of course they are private schools. If the Church were to run similar schools in Armenia, I don't think they'd be considered private. So I'd have to think of another avenue. Of course the ARS also runs preschools and Saturday schools. They could help. Then there's AGBU, which runs many schools worldwide. They are a (can I say rich?) rich organization, and can brunt the costs of such a school. There are lots of options. I didn't intend to make an official proposal; I don't have any of the means or connections to make something like this happen. But I intend to disseminate the idea to people who might be able to (Asbarez newspaper seems particularly worried about the future of the language...)

Edited October 13, 2004 by Gor-Gor

[Twilight Bark]

Welcome to the forum Gor-Gor. As you concluded, Western Armenian cannot survive in the long term without the soil from which it was plucked. The news item "The last speaker of Western Armenian died today at the age of 132" is probably about 200 years away. That doesn't mean I am not doing my best to teach it to my kids (simply because it is the one I am reasonably competent in).

 

As for W.A. in Armenia, I think there is already a program that is designed to train teachers from the diaspora in W.A. (which is kind of strange). I don't remember any details though. I am not sure there is a point in keeping W.A. alive by life-support. It would be better if elements of it (along with Grabar [Krapar ] ) were incorporated into and reconciled with "Eastern Armenian", so that the latter becomes easier to adapt to, as well as richer.

[Proud EXPAT]

I was watching a debate on H1 (State Armenian TV channel) here in Armenia last night.

 

The debate was if there should just be one dialect. The good part was that the 2 speakers (one an Eastern Armo the other Western) were quite fair and had vaild points. It was also good to see that the Eastern Armenian was defending the Westerns point when it came to the debate of spelling the original Mesrobian way.

 

By the way I have many Armenian friends from Armenia whom have studied Western Armenian in school, so it does actually exist. The cool thing is that I know many local Armenians that know a lot of the words we Western Armos use that they usually don't such as "asor/anor/ador", "hos/hon", "adika/anika/asika", etc. When I first moved here not a lot of people knew these words, but it's changed quite a bit over the years.

 

I always say why not give up both dialects and go back to Grabar. I think it is a beautiful language. Either way, I don't think the differences in the dialects are that different. When I first moved here I couldn't understand anything people were saying, but once in a while I would meet someone whom I could totally understand. Why? Because they were speaking proper and clean Eastern Armenian, none of the Russian words or slangs.

 

Gor-Gor it's better to talk about getting all those spyurqahays over here rather than opening up all these churches and schools abroad.

 

As far as Armos in the middle east go, they are, at a fast pace, decreasing in population. Take for example Armos in Syria. They used to be the elite minority, and most Arabs, from what I've heard, used to think of them as a special race. Now all the Arabs have conquered the industries Armenians were once known to be masters at. Sad. The new generations of Armos in Lebanon and Syria are moving here. Studying here, then deciding not to go back.

[Arpa]

No Ex, not have one single dialect.

There is so much beauty in the vernaculars, and many roots can be found intact in them. Sad to say that the western dialects have been lost but in eastern Armenia there are still many dialects, besides the major ones such as Artsakh and Araratian, each village has its unique dilaect and they have to be preserved. It is so flavorful and delectable to listen to some villagers speak.

 

Look what Kipling said;

 

Rudyard Kipling Poems

THE BALLAD OF EAST AND WEST

Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet, Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat; But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth, When two strong men stand face to face, tho' they come from the ends of the earth!

 

Contrary to the above, in our case, east and west shall meet, with equal and mutual respect and compromise. The answer is not grabar, it is tantamount to Italians reverting to Latin and the English reverting to ME. None of them will happen. The solution in our case is for both to revert back, as you suggest, to the Mesropian orthography and phonetics. (btw, you spelled it as "mesroBian"). If the westerners would be so kind to rediscover the mesropian phonology, i.e Ben is B and not a P, Gim is a G and not K, Dza as in dzuk, not Tsa as in ysoren etc. And if the eaterners were to give us back the seventh letter E as in esh and "amen", and the hyun as in "hau" and not a Ve as in "vagh", and start spelling "hav" and "kov" with the hyun as it was intended . All of those had a purpose as E as in "esh" was not intended to sound like the 5th letter Ye, but somewhere in the middle as the English A as in "man"** and the hyun was intended to osund like the English W..

If only we would be so kind and humble, stop arguing which is correct and which shall prevail over the other, and instead go back to what Mesrop dedicated his entire life to give a complete, more complete than any other alphabet, only then, maybe the east and the wst will meet and put Kipling to shame.

 

** The reason why "eg"=female is declined as "igakan" is beacuse the 7th letter was never intended to sound like the 5th as in Erevan but as e as in "egg". We teach our children that there is no sound of e as in egg is to spite the turkifikation who do have the it. Once agian, listen to the dialects and see how many of them still preserve the sound of e as in egg. See how many pronounce "kaghogh" as "khegheugh".

 

Volumes can be written about the subject but the secret lies in to stop arguing as to which is correct and which not, go back to and ask Mesrop.

 

LEAVE THE VERNACULARS ALONE. THERE IS BEAUTY IN BOTH. CONCENTRATE ON AND UNIFY/STANDARDIZE ORTHOGRAPHY, AND CONSIDER/CORRECT WESTERN PHONOLOGY, so they will stop pronouncing "barbar" as "parpar".

 

If you need to read more about "barbar/barbarian" search the forum and ye shall find what I/we have said about the subject.

[nairi]

When I first moved here I couldn't understand anything people were saying, but once in a while I would meet someone whom I could totally understand. Why? Because they were speaking proper and clean Eastern Armenian, none of the Russian words or slangs.

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So true, and I'm a speaker of East... I still don't understand more than half their slang.. So I force everyone I meet to speak maqur hayeren. Or else, I threaten to make sure to throw in some heavy Persian Armenian slang and see how they feel.

 

Kor-Kor, I have in front of me two school books (volumes B/P and G/K) for Western Armenian called "Mayreni Lezu", published by <> Hratarakchutyun, Yerevan, 1984.

[Proud EXPAT]

So true, and I'm a speaker of East... I still don't understand more than half their slang.. So I force everyone I meet to speak maqur hayeren. Or else, I threaten to make sure to throw in some heavy Persian Armenian slang and see how they feel.

 

The most annoying of all is when locals use a Turkish or Russian word and I tell them that that is not an Armenian word and they lose it, claiming that I am wrong. For someone, like myself, who doesn't know Russian, hearing Russian words completely stands out since it is so damn different sounding than Armenian.

 

 

 

Arpa you confused the heck out of me in your reply! It's the first thing I read when I woke up this morning. :-)

 

I think we agree that we should go back to Mesropian spelling and Eastern Armenian pronunciations. (I apologize for the B in Mesropian. I actually confused myself.)

 

My parents were taught Western and naturally so was I. But I make an effort of speaking Eastern WITH Eastern pronunciations in Armenia. It drives me nuts to hear Armenians who primarily speak Western talking Eastern with Western pronunciations. For example, "yes KNATSI Tebi Dun" instead of "yes GNATSI Depi Tun". In most cases, I think this confuses Hayastantsis more than just speaking our Western words with Western pronunciations such as "yes KATSI tebi dun".

 

As far as the barbars go, I am not against them at all. I LOVE hearing them all (sure some more than others.) But of course education to be taught in one dialect and one spelling is the most important at this point.

 

A point was made in the debate I was watching, and basically they said that the ministry of education (and the government) are way too passive in this country. While Georgia and Azerbaijan got rid of all their Russian, and Azerbaijan completely changed their lettering to, I believe, Latin, Armenia has YET to do something as gutsy when it comes to these VERY important issues. I'm not saying get rid of Russian, I'm saying #1 fix this spelling issue. We have a diaspora of millions and another couple or more million in Armenia that HAVE to come in line with this problem.

 

Let's keep the asigas, anigas, aghvors, hoses, hons, and so on, but work towards them being pronounced asika and anika instead.

 

This is MY personal take on this issue.

[Boghos]

Reductio: issue in my mind is orthography. Phonetics are an integral part of dialects so hard to see how you could change that. I am not too concerned with this issue, language is a living entity and in practical terms the most you can do is to try to standardize some aspects of it.

 

Perhaps what we need is a really major Armenian dictionary.

[Gor-Gor]

Boghos: That's exactly what I was going to reply after reading Proud Expat's last post.

 

The Western phonology, incorrect as it may be, is a natural component of the Western dialect, and I would be against any effort to change it. Besides, that would be, I think, a fruitless effort. For one, I can't make the proper b/g/d middle sounds. Second, how can you get Diaspora WA teachers (and parents!) to start teaching 'proper' pronunciation to students? Third, even when I try to use such pronunciation, it takes quite an effort to remember the spelling of each word to know how to pronounce it. And finally, for me personally, I feel a connection to my perished family members -- they spoke this way, and so will I.

 

Nairi: Thanks for that! I didn't know "Mayreni Lezou" was a Yerevan publication. The new generation of youngsters at my old school are using those now. Lucky them! Our books were old, raggedy, and had no pictures.

 

On this topic - is anyone aware of a new volume of Armenian language textbooks that were published last year in Greece (or was it Cyprus?)? I'm tying to get more info about it. The neat thing about it was that the selected works, poems, etc tried to use subject matter that is relevant to today's urban Armenian diasporans, so that the new generation could relate to the works. Because I know that when I was in high school, I would think that the stories and poems we read were so ... "hedamnats" to an extent. And of course, they use modern fonts, colors, design -- which were only but a dream for us just a few years ago. I want to present this volume of books to my old school.

[Proud EXPAT]

Gor-Gor I have completely adapted to Eastern pronunciations, but only because I live in Armenia and communicate with locals.

 

Plus chatting on the net with Hayastantsis has helped a lot since I have to write in English letters and with their pronunciations. Weird thing is that my spelling has improved completely because of it.

 

I guess my views differ since I actually live in Armenia and hear the unique pronunciations of all our letters. It's honestly annoying for me as a Western Armenian to get confused as to which "k" or "p" and so on to use. Eastern Armenian pronunciations are obviously richer and therefore I prefer it. To each is own I suppose.

[Arpa]

Arpa you confused the heck out of me in your reply! It's  the first thing I read when I woke up this morning.  :-)

 

 

I confused you?

 

Welcome to the club!!

 

If we would only listen to our "prophets" instead of the false prophets of other people we would not be in this mess.

 

Read my signature below. It is from Paruyr Sevak's Anlreli Zangakatun, it refers to the time when young Soghomon(Komitas) who could not speak a word of Armenian and who at his introduction to the Catholicos Khrimian Hayrik sang in Turkish causing the Hayrik to weep openly. What Sevak means is; From that day on Turka-Hayeren and Russa-Hayeren lost its meaning and became one HAYEREN.

Of course Sevak is another prophet worth listening to, but another prophet worth to live by is Hrachya Ajarian, just like Komitas he was born in a Turkish speaking environment, Istanbul, who grew up to write the definitive volumes about our language, be it eastern or western. It is noteworthy that, even though he produced his most prolific works during Soviet times he never lost sight of Mesrop and used his e's and hyuns even when the prevaling Abeghian orthography had all but totally lost the use of those letters.

Speaking of prophets and saints, Soghomon grew up to write and sing in both vernaculars and dialects. Hrachya, who never condemned either the "oum" or the "k@" branches of the Mother Tongue deserves to be canonized and made a saint just as Sevak deserves the title of Sourb Paruyr.

 

 

Maybe I'll write his biography of Ajarian under another cover.

Edited December 16, 2004 by Arpa

[Harut]

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