Rubo

Aside from this discussion what fascinate me is how one-dimensional our forum members are. It seems that had we had the opportunity to meet in person lot of misconceptions will melt away. Sip revealed some family background and to be honest I visualize him more in two dimension now .It is difficult to get a sense of the person on the forums like this unless they reveal something of personal level the person will continue to remain as the issues they talk about. Anyway I was never interested about a person based on issues but more on character, personality-issues for me are transitory hence what one thinks today will change later but what one is in essence will never change. I do love to hear more personal accounts of this forum members since it only brings more dimensions to the person beyond names real or not.

quote:Originally posted by KoRn:The US is making a huge mistake by going into a war with Iraq and destabilizing the region once again. The excuse that its making for going to Middle East is a bull****. One thing that really interests me when the US really starts the war is wheater the Kurds in the north will demand and even declare their authonomy and what role would Turkey play in case that happens. I read that the Turks are going to be very cautious about it so that it wouldn't happen. I also read that once Saddam Hussein is overthrown [for some kind of a reason I don't believe that he will be]the Turks will try to occupy northern Iraq for the oil [which is very unlikely]. I think that US needs Saddam over there so that US will have a good reason to be present in the Middle East for the oil and destabilize the region whenever it fells like. If the US was so eager of getting rid of Hussein, they would have done it long time ago. What role do yuo guys think that the Kurds & the Turks will be playing in that war??? Dear KoRn, I am by no means an expert on this subject but I thought these articles may answer your questions Turkey concerned about repercussions of war against Iraq Last Updated Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:31:51 ANKARA - Turkey's powerful military fears that the Kurds of northern Iraq will use any U.S. attack on Baghdad to push for an autonomous state. Turkey fought a bloody 17-year war against Kurdish separatists, and has threatened to intervene militarily in northern Iraq if there's any sign the Iraqi Kurds are moving towards full independence. In the southern Turkish city of Diyarbakir, a few hundred kilometres north of the border, the regional government is preparing for the possibility of another war next door and another flood of Iraqi Kurdish refugees. Vice-governor Huseyin Nail Atay fears a repeat of the region's woes after the Gulf War. "Turkey suffered a great deal after the Gulf War," he said. "Thirty per cent of our export trade was with Iraq. That was lost. And terrorist attacks in southeastern Anatolia reached the highest levels ever." One of the bitterest legacies of the Gulf War, for many Turks, was the creation of a special enclave for the Kurds of northern Iraq, a protected no-fly zone monitored by British and U.S. warplanes. The Turkish government in Ankara says the enclave has been exploited for years by the PKK - Kurdish guerrillas - bent on independence for Turkey's sizable Kurdish community. "The Kurdish elements there felt they were somewhat protected by the United States," says politician Mumtasz Soysal. Iraqi Kurds have enjoyed far more autonomy under the protection of the no-fly zone than Turkey's Kurdish population can even dream about. A few weeks ago rival Kurdish factions - the KDP and the PUK - put aside their differences to re-open a regional parliament. Soysal says if the Kurd's declare an autonomous state in a post-Saddam Iraq, it will only be a matter of time before Turkey's Kurds demand the same. "Even if it is not the policy of that Kurdish state, basically it will be a destabilizing element for all the neighbourhood including Turkey which has the largest Kurdish population." But it's about more than an independent Kurdistan. It's also about oil and Turkish fears that the Iraqi Kurds will make a grab for the oil-rich regions of Mosul and Kirkuk. Hardliners in Turkey say that can never be allowed to happen. Umit Ozdag who runs a conservative think tank close to Turkey's political and military establishment, says control of the oil would give the Kurds enough money to sponsor an independent state. Ozdag says not even Turkey's traditional loyalty to the United States would prevent Ankara from protecting its own interests if it came down to that. "We don't need to warn KDP or the PUK, we need to warn just the United States. If something happens to Kirkuk we're going to dispatch our troops to Kirkuk to take it back from the Kurds. It's enough," said Ozdag. And so southern Turkey remains extremely tense with a heavy military presence plain to see, especially in the border areas with large Kurdish populations, which are still under a form of martial law. Written by CBC News Online staff By Antoine Blua Comments from top officials in Turkey, Iran, and Syria -- all neighbors of Iraq with sizeable Kurdish minorities -- appear to indicate a growing rapprochement between the three countries on the issue of a possible U.S.-led war on Iraq. The governments fear a U.S. attack could lead to Iraq's disintegration and the creation of an independent Iraqi Kurdish state that would encourage breakaway aspirations among the Kurdish minorities in their own states. RFE/RL asked two journalists who frequently visit the region how Kurdish communities feel about the potential U.S. military action against Saddam Hussein. Prague, 23 October 2002 (RFE/RL) -- Turkey is seen as a key player in any U.S.-led attack on the regime of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, whom Washington accuses of developing weapons of mass destruction. Ankara could provide air bases for U.S. warplanes or even troops in the event of a war. But Turkey -- along with other Iraqi neighbors with sizeable Kurdish minorities -- fears a U.S. attack could spark a chain reaction of Kurdish breakaway movements throughout the region. Ankara says the possible disintegration of Iraq following a U.S. invasion could lead to the creation of an independent Iraqi Kurdish state and that other such states might follow. As many as 12 million to 15 million Kurds live in southeastern Turkey. There are roughly 5 million to 7 million in Iran, about 4 million in northern Iraq, and 1.5 million in Syria. The Turkish newspaper "Hurriyet" reported that the Turkish government conveyed its concerns on 21 October to U.S. General Tommy Franks, who would head any U.S. attack on Iraq. Franks was in Ankara for talks on Iraq with Turkish military officials. The paper says the Turkish government issued a number of warnings, saying it would reject the establishment of an independent Kurdish state in northern Iraq and a federal system in post-Hussein Iraq. Ankara also objects to the use of Kurdish fighters to overthrow Hussein and the proposal to leave the oil-producing cities of Mosul and Kirkuk to Kurdish groups. "Hurriyet" also reported that Ankara has asked for $4 billion from the United States to compensate for lost trade in the event of a war. To date, however, Iraq's Kurds deny they are seeking independence. Instead, they say they are seeking a federal setup in a post-Hussein Iraq. RFE/RL spoke to two journalists who frequently visit the region about how the Kurdish communities in the region regard potential U.S. military action against Iraq. Hiwa Osman is a Kurdish-affairs analyst based in London. He said Baghdad and its neighbors have always feared that a strong Kurdish element in Iraq would encourage Kurds in nearby countries to distance themselves from their respective central powers. "[Neighboring states] see it as a security headache, basically, if the Kurds of Iraq were to get [an independent state]. [Neighboring states] usually view it as a step toward independence, although the Kurds of Iraq have not been asking for independence. And [iraqi Kurds] have been repeating over and over again that what they are asking for is federalism within the framework of Iraq," Osman said. Osman said that while many Kurds dream of establishing a Kurdish state, most see this as an impossible goal and do not realistically pursue it. Northern Iraq has been out of Baghdad's control since the 1991 Gulf War and is held by the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) and Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK). In September, KDP and PUK leaders signed a peace agreement, reactivating the unified Kurdish national assembly elected in 1992. The majority of Iraqi Kurds, Osman noted, support the KDP and PUK and their aim of a post-Hussein federal system. People believe they would be much better off being part of a federal democratic and pluralistic Iraq as opposed to being in a landlocked independent state, he stressed. Osman noted that the Kurds of the region sympathize with their fellow Kurds in Iraq and would like to see the end of Hussein's repressive rule. "The majority of the Kurds all over the Middle East are very supportive of a strike against Iraq in order to remove Saddam Hussein. They say: 'We are against a strike that would kill innocent [Kurdish] civilians. But at the same time, if there is no other way but war to remove Saddam Hussein, let's do it,'" Osman said. Michel Verrier is a Berlin-based journalist who contributes to the French monthly "Le Monde Diplomatique." He said that he does not know any significant Kurdish political force in Iraq with plans to establish an independent Kurdish state. He also said Kurdish groups are not necessarily prepared to offer full backing to any form of U.S. military intervention. "The Kurds from Iraq are actually waiting for a precise definition of Washington's plan or goals. Of course, they are not ready to support any project. In recent days, for instance, they have reacted cautiously to the latest proposal from Washington to establish a military government in Baghdad after a military intervention that could last a year or more. The example would be the administration that the United States put in place in Germany or Japan after World War II," Verrier said. For Iraqi Kurds, Verrier said, any military intervention has to be followed by a democratic process supported by Iraqis themselves, permitting the creation of a transitional government in Baghdad, the organization of elections, and the establishment of a constitution for all of Iraq. In northern Iraq, Verrier pointed out, the Kurds have implemented important democratic reforms. The population enjoys freedom of speech and an economic situation largely superior to that of the rest of the country. Iraqi Kurds are keen to keep this "bubble of liberty" they have established and to help extend it throughout Iraq. At the same time, Verrier noted, the Kurdish communities in the region dream of a democratic Iraq that would strengthen Kurdish demands in neighboring countries. "There is a convergence between the Kurds in Iraq, Turkey and Iran. They do not propose the complete transformation of the region's borders to establish an independent Kurdish state that would unite the Kurds from different countries. First, [they want] more democracy and the recognition of their rights in the frame of the countries in which they are living today. Second, [they want] to participate fully in political life in the framework of the central state," Verrier said. Osman said the Turkish government does not recognize the Kurds as an ethnic group but classifies them as "mountainous Turks." As a result, Turkey's Kurds have been deprived of all their cultural, linguistic, and historical rights, such as studying their language or broadcasting in Kurdish. "There has been a complete suppression of any Kurdish demands or any Kurdish rights in terms of them wanting to live as normal citizens of the Turkish Republic. At the same time, the Kurdish regions of Turkey are suffering very severe economic hardships. They have been neglected by the authorities," Osman said. The decades-long state of emergency in force in Turkey's Kurdish region was lifted this June, three years after the end of the Kurdistan Workers Party's guerrilla activities. In August, the Turkish parliament adopted measures to bring Turkey's laws in line with the standards of the European Union, including guaranteeing the right to teach what the law calls "languages and accents spoken by Turkish citizens," a reference to Kurdish, which remains a taboo word. But some have complained that the strict guidelines of the new language-freedom laws make them practically meaningless.

quote:Originally posted by Mher:I strongly believe individual families (Armenian) can be a model for every nationality, and I’m very proud of that fact, but if we (the generation) can’t stop this “white massacre” then I’m afraid we are loosing something very precious and dear! I totally agree with you Mher. As a footnote: I heard my son sing the US national anthem after school and I heard him sing the Armenian national anthem also after Saturday Armenian church class. I paused when that happened and I thought that it is possible to maintain both identities without conflict. He started to write in Armenian as well as in English so I hope some day he won’t curse me of leaving his roots dry.

I feel slight philosophical about this whole socio political arguments. Having lived under communism then capitalism and Reaganomics and libertarianism I feel certain things in life are just the way it is “NOT FAIR” is a common motto or a conviction, which comes from the mindset that life somehow must be fair. Nature does not recognize that at all. Is it fair that the hyena pack tears away buffalo to pieces? I have no problem having any elite group controlling anything as long as I have my democracy and freedom to choose weather I want to play the game or create my life as I see it. When I was young I used to disrespect the rich, sneer at them but now I realize those rich people can afford to buy paintings, sculptures, support the ballet and symphony and generate buying power etc and often those people are the white elite gray hair executives that most everyone loath… I guess I agree with everyone

quote:Originally posted by Accelerated:One of my 'philosophies', is that a man should try everything (reasonably) in his lifetime, and while Im still unmarried and dont have kids, I figure I gotto give it a try.. I got kids and a wife and trust me it gets worse,you are more then willing to pack your backpack and skrach the road.Nice quote from Feb,03 Motorcyclist mag.from "Isle of man adventure" article "I can't help thinking of Frank Bascombe,Richord's Ford's narrator in Independence Day,who said, "Nothing is worth doing,unless it has the potential to f..k up your whole life."

Dear EZ, short answer, reelection: furthermore Americans learned that Iraqi’s are not much of a fighters, more verbal bravados then real action. I still remember T. Aziz proclaiming that American soldiers will swim in their own blood-some blamed it on Arabic as being a poetic language.

Political Jazz There have been questions raised on this forum about recent developments about Iraq and US motivations weather oil or other reasons for campaigning for war. It is rather peculiar situation that in US, media portrays motivations for going for war mainly characterized as anti terror operation and elimination of mass weapons of destruction. The view from my balcony is rather critical- valid questions that one should ask. A. Do people on TV, “experts” have insider knowledge that we general people don’t? B. Does CIA leak real information about US policies to media or the leaks are mainly manipulated to suit the agenda. C. Is it justifiable that democratically elected officials keep vital information out of reach of its people? Since they may end up sending their young boys and girls to die for a cause purely fabricated to begin with? I approach these questions from the perspective of doctors who suspected Germs existence but locked necessary information and knowledge to know it precisely. The U.S. imports about one-half of its petroleum from foreign sources. Without large investments in alternative energy sources, predictions are that by 2020, the ratio will increase to two-thirds. It follows, then, that the U.S. looks to secure its sources in the world's oil-producing regions - the Middle East, Africa, Latin America, the Caspian region. The May 2001 Cheney Report on the Administration's National Energy Policy makes it clear that U.S. energy security is a high priority of U.S. foreign policy. Our energy concerns have been evident in our military operations globally, especially the focus on activities which hamper oil production and delivery channels. The Gulf War, for example, protected oil interests in the Middle East. The recent U.S. deployment of several hundred special forces in the former Soviet Republic of Georgia had the stated purpose of boosting the Georgian military's ability to fight terrorists. The major goal of that training, however, was based on concern for the protection of the pipelines carrying oil from the Caspian Sea across Georgia to ports on the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea. The pipelines were considered possible targets for militias in the area…I can go on and on.. in short oil may prove the real culprit in the end.

Dear bro Accelerated,I thought I was the only bike nut here. I ‘ve been riding for years now even on rain, hail and snow. As of matter of fact my bike is inseparable from my underwear. I simply love the thing and I ride Suzuki SV650-great bike, handles great. My previous bike was a missile Yamaha YZF 600 but I found, it had too much power to be useful on public roads. It is actually a race bike and as such you need real miles under your belt before I recommend R1, GXR750 or 1000 sport bikes to newbies. Start modest and develop your riding skills before jumping on a race bike. Most young riders simply don’t have the skills to ride them properly and they unavoidably crash them on first year. Get the SV650 sport and it is so popular that it became a cult bike. You want more stats on SV go to real enthusiast site and find out. http://svrider.com/ The best bike site on the net period! Check it out. PS. If you worry to much about the danger then it is a good indication that you may not be suited to ride motocycles.You need little insanity in your character to want it otherwise stay away and stay safe.

quote:Originally posted by wh00t: Armenian-Armenian marriages are so rare nowadays in Istanbul that it's almost news when it happens. This is a rather sober,sad sentance.I thought Armenians in Istambul were keeping to themselves but I was wrong.I wonder how many Armenians married Turks and what would be their answears to their kids about the Genocide...

To Hye forum cheeese team 'armoonslaught' I am totally ignorant about time zones.If in the east coast is ten at night what time you got there.We got to arrange special mutch for your majesty since you are a half way around the world from here.For the rest of the gang here can we meet tonight at 8pm pecific,11 east at yahoo at kangaroo court if full at frog pound? My name is sedaruben2002.let me know please and your playing names.

I was just kidding Azat,I often play half drunk after work, it helps me to relax. I am sure we can plan better next time.Acc suggested place is great hardly anyone plays there.See you later.It is one in the morning.Must go to sleep, work

Guys we are playing already at Acc suggested place,very empty.Azat jan,looking forward to shish kebab you:smile:

sorry guys.I can't get in those rooms full,I don't have a solution it seems as soon as you leave the room it gets full, any ideas?

Hi guys just checked Turtle shell is open with fewer people.Others I metioned earler are full.See you there

Once I experimented with mustache but it made me look like a terrorist and then I grew a beard then it made me look like a fanatical Iranian so no facial hairs for me unless I want the FBI to follow me. ”OK Mohammed tell us what you think” excuse me sir but, but I am an Armenian. “Armenian Iranian what’s the difference” Yeah thanks to that Bush brotherhood now we are a suspect group. Man I am out of firewood, say anybody has any left over Bushes?

Dear whoot My wife is a Georgian Armenian and she spent her whole adult life in Tbilisi before coming to US. Through her I got to know more Georgian Armenians hence my opinions are not really mine but collective observations from these encounters. What was interesting that many G.A. I met, they already had Georgian last names and that was the strange to me and when pressed to explain I unavoidably opened the Pandora box. Armenians living in Georgia experienced all the pit falls of being second-class citizens. They could not get higher education in most cases unless they pretended to be Georgians. My wife- an excellent Artist-was rejected many times from passing the exams at the academy because of not her skills but her last name Matevosian hence she gave up and moved to Erevan and got a formal education there. My wife often told me that she had to keep quiet about her being Armenian since often it resulted unwarranted circumstances. Tbilisi like Baku is literary built by Armenians at least anything that is worthy and beautiful. This is no nationalistic jargon but plain fact therefore I suspect Georgians do and did feel all the pitfalls, which comes with jealousy and unproductive nationalism. Once I met a real Georgian who told me with real disdain that anything bad happened to Georgians were the result of Armenians and much to my dismay that declaration was also made against the Jews in Germany. It is our destiny that as a creative people Armenians often had to deal with these kinds of narrow, hatful sentiments much the same way Armenians endured in Turkey. I am quiet convinced that no place is our home outside Armenia. I am sure there are many exceptions, individual Georgians and Armenians making friends and so on but these examples were and are not enough to sustain the continuing strained existence of Georgian Armenians. As a foot note Georgians collaborate well with our adversaries Azerbaijan and Turkey and they place higher tariffs on Armenian goods passing through Georgia then ether Azerbaijan or Turkey. I hope our relationship does improve but I have no illusions. Armenia will get respect and support if her strength proves her relevance. Regards

Vava,thoughtful comments.

Mosjan, thanks for the nice web site.I did follow your instructions but it did not work but Vava's recommended site did work(tkx Vava).I was shocked to see the Armenian letters in full swing in front of me.Now I don't have to feel alone litrary wise.Thanks ones again and happy haliday season.

EZ, happy birthday to you and happy holiday season to everyone.We fight and crap on eachother but in the end we should not forget that we belong to a tiny race called Armenians and as such we should be proud regarless of any shortcomings.There is a brigher future.

Hi guys,15 min is plenty for me.Lets wait couple of days till we get everyone and we'll decide on time and the specific room on yahoo.It should be lot of fun

Harout,Thoth,EZ and others, I often play chess at yahoo.It is easy to join and free.The format is great.I propose Hye forum tournment.Lets agree on time and we shall all go and play in real time. Let me know what you think.

Our revolutionaries were also got suckered into believing the young Turks and we know what happened and all in the name of humanity and neighborly love. I don’t have illusions, love your neighbor but carry a big stick! We are old enough and mature enough that we don’t have to sound like kids and talk about openness, cooperation, and tolerance and so on and ignore the fact that Armenians who live in Georgia and have to deal with real hatred towards them have a very different perspective then our fellow Armenians in US. People or race, which does not learn the lessons of history, is bound to repeat them over again and again. As an Armenian I CARE LESS about political correctness (typical US mentality at present) I will always act in what is our interest first! Regards from the "radical"

Kudos to Levon!I am proud of him as an Armenian! [ December 24, 2002, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Rubo ]

ARMENIAN CHESS-PLAYER LEADS AT WORLD JUNIOR CHESS CHAMPIONSHIP Arminfo 20 Dec 2002 Yerevan The Armenian chess player Levon Aroyan is in the lead a tour before the finals at the world junior chess championship in Panaji, India. In a tournament of chess players under 20 Aroyan has scored nine of 12 points. As a footnote: my son Arvan lost one game at the nationals in Atlanta.He won six out of seven games.Pretty impressive for a seven year old.He is the current New England Champ.Yesterday he won a game against me and his creatives moves and solutions were beautiful. Regards Ruben

AMERICAN MEDIATOR ASSUMES INDEPENDENT STATUS OF Artsax Heydar Aliyev pretends he does not see anything dangerous in the statement of Rudolf Perina. The recent sensational statement of the OSCE Minsk group American co-chairman caused a shock in Azerbaijan. There is a panic in the President’s staff, judging from the statements of the officials surrounding Heydar Aliyev. The statement of Rudolf Perina, which had the effect of a cold shower, made the Baku politicians understand that at present the world community was not ready to recognize the sovereignty of Azerbaijan over Artsax. /PanARMENIAN.Net/ Being the first time, a high rank official of the U.S. Foreign Ministry (Perina is the special representative of the U.S. Department of State for the local conflicts in Eurasia) pronounced so clearly words confirming the preparedness of Washington to consider Nagorno Krabakh as an independent state or part of Armenia. We’ll remind that in an interview with a commentator of the “Echo of Moscow” Russian radio station held on December 11 Rudolf Perina said the following: “The world community is not ready to recognize neither Southern Osetia, nor Abkhazia or the Prednestrovya as independent states. The case of Nagorno Artsax is a little bit different”. “We think that Prednestrovya or Abkhazia will not be recognized by the world community. As far as Nagorno Artsax is concerned, there is a negotiation process going on between Armenia and Azerbaijan. We, the mediators, are trying to help the sides in finding a settlement”. The abovementioned quotation is rather clear. It was not easy for the official propaganda of Azerbaijan to find ways for saving their dignity. The official media reacted as usually – they started to modify the words of Perina. Being conducted by the head of foreign relations department of the President’s staff Novruz Mamedov, everybody started to find favorable interpretations for the words of Rudolf Perina, which were the following: “Between Armenia and Azerbaijan there are negotiations about the future status of Artsax. Up to now there is no conclusion of those negotiations, the world community backs the idea of territorial integrity of Azerbaijan and does not recognize Nagorno Artsax”. A method was found which allowed to gain a maximum effect with minimum falsifications. The second part of the quotation was divided into two sentences: As a result, it was the following: “Yet there is no conclusion of those negotiations. The international community backs the idea of territorial integrity of Azerbaijan and does not recognize Nagorno Karbakh”. Please note that the fool stop put in the middle of the phrase, provides an absolutely contrary meaning. In real, the logic of the words said by Perina is that America now does not think it expedient to recognize the state independence of Nagorno Artsax, as the negotiations around its status are not concluded yet. While the modified version supposes that Washington backs the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. This was published particularly in the “Echo” newspaper. Making the statement of Rudolf Perina softer, the commentator of the “Echo” accepts that the position of the diplomat voicing the official position of the USA is not very beneficial for Azerbaijan. The conclusion, which the author of the publication makes, is that it is necessary to declare a war to the Armenians. “There is only one way remained – the military way of the settlement of the problem, as the OSCE Minsk group conducting a pro-Armenian policy, will hardly oblige Armenia to make compromises with the Azerbaijani side,” the newspaper writes. And this is the best confirmation that in Baku they have started to understand that the attempts to return Artsax have no future. The political elite of Azerbaijan already understands that the settlement of the problem in the legal field will lead to the recognition of independence of the NKR by the world community. - "PanARMENIAN News" analytical department