MJ

The Yerevan Brandy Factory (Shustov Coniak factory) was built by the Russians in the pre-1917 period. The railroad, the other roads (whatever them may be) are probably also resulted from the capital investments of the Russian Government for the purpose of the movement of their military forces. But does it mean that if not for the Russians, no railroads would’ve been built in Armenia? Cannot we assume safely that they would’ve been built at least some 50 years later? If this is going to be considered as built on Russian money, then we have to also take into consideration the taxes that the Armenian population has paid to the Russian Treasury, which have included taxes even on the wood that our villagers have used from the local Armenian forestry. Obviously, I have no precise statistics on the size of the Russian investments in Armenia, and their net balance. But I can conclude that if they had significant net balance, they would’ve not easily moved their forces out in 1918, and propose the Finnish model for Armenia in 1919. And they were not very enthusiastic to take over Armenia even in 1920 – 1921. I also don’t have statistics of what has survived in Leninakan. Perhaps others in the forum may be more qualified to speak on this subject. But I can attest to the following. The pre-Khroshchevian buildings in the entire Armenia have been of a pretty satisfactory quality. The quality of the buildings in Armenia, as well as in the entire USSR, have gone down in the Khrushchev era (so-called “khrushchobi” from the Russian word “trushchobi”), when under the slogan of providing everybody with public housing, and so that to make it possible, they have lowered the construction cost, while sacrificing the quality of the buildings. This has been of no consequence in non-seismic zones. I am aware of the insinuations regarding this topic, and have to claim that they are taken way out of proportions. With all the continuing Russian influences, Armenia’s Nation building has been overwhelming in the Soviet era. In a way, Armenia has had the chance of filtering away the centuries old influences. Not completely, though. The seventy years of Soviet Armenian history have been years of rapid and cinsistent development. The stagnation you are referring to has been of political character, and was attributable to the general Soviet political stagnation, which has started in 70s. It has picked up pace in Armenia with much more acceleration than in Russia. The economic stagnation of Armenia has started in 1988, as a result of the lose of the contracts from the military-industrial complex of USSR (and the subsequent transportation blockade), which used to make the major chunk of overall Armenia economy. According to the confession of the Soviet Central government, as published by the Moscow newspaper “Izvestia” in early 1988, Armenia and Azerbaijan have been the only two Soviet Republics (at least at the time), which have had net positive balance with the central economy of USSR. [ April 15, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Browsing this thread, I found that we have deviated from Raffi's original topic.

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We still have eggs in our basket, but those things that were in our purse are on their way to Uncle Sam. So much about the Easter, right?

Dear Azat, It is very unfortunate that you have perceived our exchange as whatever match. Sure, you are free to have whatever opinions, you are free to defend them, and so am I. Furthermore, all of us have the right to try to refute the opinions expressed by others. And it is my understanding that this is the whole purpose of our forum. Additionally, it has not been my logic that since we have won Sardarabad in 1918, we would win another battle/war with Turkey in our days. BTW, the USSR had a population of more than 250 million, and yet it lost in Afghanistan, it collapsed, and Russia has one of the lousiest economies in the world. Additionally, as evident, Russians cannot handle Chechnya. However, the pretext of my posting has not been “machoism.” Also, the “reality” frequently is what we perceive it to be, not what it is in reality. If anything in my current or previous postings has insulted you, I sincerely apologize.

Churches renew Easter rivalry in Jerusalem By Harvey Morris in Jerusalem FT-UK April 13 2001 Flak-jacketed police and Israeli troops almost outnumbered worshippers in the Old City of Jerusalem as depleted ranks of Christian pilgrims marked the first Good Friday since the start of the Palestinian uprising. The foreign visitors who each year tread the Via Dolorosa, following the route of Christ's ascent to Calvary, were largely absent, deterred by violence that has included recent clashes between stone-throwers and security forces within a few metres of the Christian holy sites. Shopkeepers in the narrow streets around the Church of the Holy Sepulchre said it was the quietest Easter for visitors since 1967, the year Israel wrested the Old City from Jordanian rule. Unusually this year, the dates of the western and eastern Easters coincide and, for once, Catholics and Protestants mingled with Russian and Greek Orthodox, Copts, Armenians and Ethiopians at the 14 stations of the cross that lead to the Holy Sepulchre. Despite the declining numbers of Christians in Jerusalem - some estimates put the number at fewer than 10,000 - the 17 churches represented here continue to exert a powerful influence on the politics of the city. They own much of the property and regard that property as inalienable. The churches jealously guard their rights against each other and against Muslim and Jewish incursions. Ancient rivalries that date back to the Crusades and beyond have been exacerbated since 1967 by rising nationalism among the Palestinian laity, running up against expatriate priesthoods sometimes suspected of being pro-Israeli. These tensions have led to violence at Easter and to pitched battles in the Holy Sepulchre, a Crusader warren of rival chapels and presbyteries centred on the tomb of Christ. As recently as 1998 Armenians fought with Syrian Orthodox Christians armed with metal bars, knives and stones over the right of yet a third denomination to display religious joy on Easter Saturday. This right to exuberance on the holy day is confined to the Greek Orthodox under a complex division of rights known as the Status Quo, imposed by the Ottoman authorities in the 19th century to try to establish inter-Christian peace. The Armenians do not expect any trouble, having taken to placing a guard of muscular, crew-cut monks from former Soviet Armenia at the head of their ranks as they observe the ceremony of the holy fire when the darkened church is steadily flooded with light from thousands of candles. If the Old City, with its Muslim, Jewish, Christian and Armenian quarters, is a microcosm of the ethnic divisions in the region, then the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is a yet smaller microcosm. Possession is everything and the Greek, Armenian, Franciscan and Coptic monks who control the body of the church aggressively swing their censers to mark their passage through the church according to a strict timetable. While Greeks, Catholics and Armenians take it in turns to worship at Christ's tomb, nearby at the rear of the sepulchre the Copts invite pilgrims to touch the stone where His head is said to have lain. Since failing to pay their Ottoman taxes in the 19th century, the Ethiopians have been exiled to a monastery on the roof alongside yet another Coptic stronghold. The Israeli authorities have frequently been accused of exploiting this hornet's nest of Christian conflict for political ends. The Egyptian Copts claimed that the government allowed the Ethiopians to extend their control of the roof by taking over a passageway between two chapels in a dispute that was inconclusively referred to the Israeli supreme court. On Sunday, before the Latin Patriarch enters the Church of the Holy Sepulchre to celebrate Easter Sunday Mass, its huge double doors will as always be opened by a Musli m porter. The key has been held by the same Muslim family for generations, since the Christians decided none of their co-religionists could be trusted with the task.

Dear Azat, What shoud we do to prove it?

Dear Azat, With all due respect, I have to disagree with you one more time. Until the collapse of the Soviet Union, the entire Karabagh was reduced to a mere city of Stepanagert. All that was executed by the Soviet Special forces under the command of Soviet General Saphonov. What has saved Karabagh has been the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the pull-out of the Soviet/Russian forces from Karabagh, i.e. the fact of Armenians being left alone with the Azeries. Sure, there were small groups of Russian mercenaries fighting in the Armenian side, but there were also similar size Russian mercenaries in the Azeri side. As to the arms, the relationship of the arms acquired from the Soviet Army was about 1:5 against Armenians –in favor of Azeries. True, subsequently, Armenians have confiscated much of the arms that were under the Azerie control. Your statement regarding building Armenia by Russia indeed is extreme. It would be accurate to claim, I think, that Armenia was built during the Soviet period. Does it mean that it would’ve not been built had Armenia been independent since 1918? And I agree that Armenian Science was built on Russian traditions. Thank God. As to the Art, that is a more questionable statement, and we have discussed it in our forum in the past. As to losing more Armenian territories to the neighbors without Russia, I think this is a very one-sided opinion. Without Russia, other geopolitical alternatives may be implemented. Much of the implementation of the Genocide by the Turks has its roots in the Russian policy of our region. I don’t mean to undermine the responsibility of Turkey in it, and exaggerate the Russian responsibility. One has to also accept that much of the Armenian territories were lost in 1920’s due to the policies executed by Russia – not Turkey. Additionally, the Turkish advancement towards Armenia (in 1920) was inspired, aided and financed by Russia. In fact, during 1918-1920 Armenia has had an excellent chance to build permanent peace with Turkey. But, instead, Russia and the idiotic Armenian political leadership have screwed up Armenia one more time. One has to also accept that the only instance in history when the Armenian army has fought against the Turkish army has been in Sardarabad. You know the result. Basically, there is no other instance of Armenian resistance to Turkish army in our entire history, except perhaps the rebellion of Mkhitar Sbarabed, which in reality has been a local rebellion. Therefore, I think your implicit conclusions are inaccurate. The economic failure of Armenia is indeed a reality. Is it because we “were left without Russia?” I think not at all. It is also reality that Armenia has received much economic aid from Russia – aid in terms of long-term loans. Can you think of anything else? Would’ve Armenia received such loans from other sources if Armenia was not in the Russian camp? I am sure the answer is yes. True, the nuclear station would’ve not been reactivated without Russia. The West, more exactly the US, remains opposed to it. I don’t want to go into details, but my concluding moral would be that there is never just one alternative. I also would conclude that, by in large, the Armenian history remains misunderstood by Armenians, or better to say, Armenians don’t know Armenian history beyond cliches. Armenians have read few historic novels by some magnificent Armenian writers, and some of them on the subject of “Orhhnvi en shate, vor Russi orhnavats vote mer lis ashkharh@ mtav,” and have had at their disposal the entire Soviet Propaganda apparatus on how Turks would’ve eliminated Armenians if not for Russia. With the help of all three Armenian Political Diasporan parties, the same apparatus has actively implemented the same propaganda with even more success in the Diaspora. In fact, the Diasporan parties have had also additional, different from each other, however, incentives to implement such propaganda. P.S. The above quote is taken from Khachatur Abovian’s “Verk Hayastani.”

Boghos, I am sure, many others would disagree with us.

quote:Originally posted by Azat: The question that I have is "Do you HAVE any Turkish friends?" For the same reason I don't have a Vietnamese friend, per se - haven't come across.

Dear Azat, With all due respect, I disagree with your statement. Not that I am promoting deteriorating relations between Russia and Armenia, however. To the contrary, I am advocating improved relations between Armenia and all other states of the refion. Additionally, I think Armenia may play an important role of a balancing factor in our complicated region.

Dear Levon, My thinking is that there are things that we can do, but I am not claiming that these things ought to be done. One thing that we should do, however, is the more sober recognition of our past, and the reevaluation of everything related to our identity.

FOREIGN INVESTMENT FIGURES UP The total volume of foreign investments in the Armenian economy increased 29% over 1999. Armenia's Deputy Minister of Industry and Trade Tigran Davtian said this week that a preliminary estimate of $180 million for 2000 had been revised upward to $190 million. (Source: Snark 4-10)

Boghos, I basically agree with all of your observations. The points that I wanted to make, when opening this topic are the following: 1. We had lost our lands to Iran and Byzantium long before the arrival of Turks; 2. Turks have not taken these lands away from us, but primarily from Byzantium; 3. During the second millennium, Armenians have become smaller and smaller minority on these lands; 4. For almost 1000 years, Armenians have not advanced any claims on these lands, nor have had aspirations for them; 5. Until the Genocide, the demography of Armenians on the historic Armenian lands has changed (in a negative direction) primarily due to the action taken by the Armenian Church, Shah Abbas, and natural assimilation. For example, a very significant percentage of Turks should have Armenian origin; 6. In the words of one of the then Prime Minister of the first Republic of Armenia, Khatisian ( if I am not mistaken - in two years we have had 5-6 Prime Ministers), when discussing the issue of “our lands,” as promised by ENTANTE, “if we would bring together all Armenians from all over the world, and hold each others hands, and line-up along the borders of the ‘promised’ land, we cannot even cover the borders;” 7. Throughout most of the history, at least the history of the last 1500 years, Armenia has been a geographic category, rather than legal or political; 8. The only existing legal-political framework regarding the territorial definition of Armenia may be advanced in the context of Eastern Armenia. When declaring its independence in 1918, Turkey has been the first state de-facto and de-jure recognizing its independence; 9. The Russo-Turkish Treaty of 1921 is the rampant violation of the international law, and is the deal stripping Armenia off of its legitimate attributes. However, the executor of that Treaty, as specified by the treaty itself, has not been Turkey, but Russia; 10. Any claims of the Eastern Armenian lands, if qualified to be realistic and executable, have to be directed at Russia, first of all, and then at Turkey. In conclusion, I think the cultivation of the dream of “Our lands,” in its present form, and the institutionalised misleading of our people, are some of the greatest crimes of the Armenian political parties (primarily in Diaspora), the other organizations, and ideologists against our nation.

Actually, where I live or have lived in the past, and where I have worked, people have no idea about Armenians. In most of the cases, when you say Armenia, they reiterate Romania? Under the best scenario they have heard that Armenia was engaged in "civil war" with Azerbaijan. But in more than 90% of cases they don't ask about my ethnicity, though it is evident that I am not native here.

Conventional Armenian ideology claims that Turks have taken away our lands, and we want them back. But how have Turks taken away our lands, when and which lands? What is the basis of a legitimate claim that the lands subject to controversy are Armenian?

quote:Originally posted by Boghos: But just think if every Armenian changes his last name, what mess we would be in . Well, in Ara Baloizian's words, it would be the beginning of the de-Ottomanization of Armenians.

Mike, As Boghos has already explained, the roots of all these last names are Turkish. As a rule, the last names of Western Armenians have been after the profession of their ancestors (in Turkish). If I am not mistaken, Semerdjie, for example, points to a profession of making saddles (for horses, etc.), and Demirdjie refers to the profession of a painter (may be the other way around). Dear Boghos, part of my family (my maternal side) has a similar last name – Tashchian. I am sure that if I tell my uncles that they should change it to Kardashian, they would tell me the same as you do. However, personally, I would've liked to see it done. I have to also admit that I would not have any problems with Izmir dried figs, or any other Turkish goods, or engaging in positive relationship with a person of Turkish origin - as long as he/she is a positive person as an individual. I am sure that you know that there is no such issue for me. The issue I have raised above has not been an anti-Turkish statement, but rather a statement about us - Armenians. And given its mass character, it has not been a personal issue to any degree.

I wouldn't listen to an American rap group, nor would listen to "Hokis." Only the name "Hokis" would be telling enough as to understand what kind of tasteless crap it may produce. And I would feel much more comfortable knowing that there are no "modern" Armenian musical bands, rather than they are of this type - I would expect that its music is much worse than the lyrics. Addiitonally, our young people's obsession with such Capital Crap tells me how low our culture has fallen.

GUNGO-HO ARMENIANS ********************************** It happens all the time. Gung-ho Armenians come to me and say: "Let’s do this, that and the other! After all, we are Armenians and we should do whatever we can for our nation," or words to that effect. What happens next? They are seldom heard from again, alas! And why? I have no idea, but I can guess. After a minor setback, a harsh exchange of words, or a silly misunderstanding, they forget all about their beloved nation and busy themselves with more important things, such as making a living, raising a family, collecting stamps, or surfing on the internet. Not that I blame them. I don’t mind admitting that I too am tempted to quit every day. If I go on, it’s because I like doing what comes easy. If tomorrow I find a better-paying job, I will quit before anyone can say Jack S. Avanakian. I reject the mantle of hero and I have nothing but contempt for readers who demand martyrdom from me. I am an ordinary joe whose sole aim in life is to live in peace and make himself useful to people who are civilized enough not to spit in his face. I admire the Don but Sancho Panza is my man. -------------------- ara baliozian

THE OTTOMANIZATION OF CONTEMPORARY ARMENIAN LITERATURE ********************************************* To those who say I am too tough on our leaders, I say, they are even tougher on our writers. No writer has ever been in a position to excommunicate, expel, silence, or starve a boss, bishop, or benefactor; but where these gentlemen and their assorted flunkies enter, only brown-nosers survive and prosper. -------------------- ara baliozian

Dear Ara, I don't think you are wrong in assessing what we can observe, now. It is just something new has happened about 10 years ago, which has not yet been fully comprehended. It will take one generation, as much as this type of assessment may be correct, so that a new mentality and a new set of values may be established. The generation, which has never believed in Armenia and in its future, and whose ideology has been based on the motto "being good Armenian means hating Turks – more you hate, better Armenian you are," cannot change over such a short period of time. In fact, I think they would never change. And I, personally, would not waist my energy trying to reform them. That generation, with some exceptions, as I have mentioned above, has been mentally and psychologically dead throughout its entire existence. And being exception has, by in large, meant alienating oneself from the Armenian identity. An Encyclopedia Britannica of the 19th century has only few lines under the title “Armenians” and a picture of a farmer sitting on a donkey, with his wife on his side. Looking at the picture, you cannot tell what makes this couple not to be taken for a Turk or a Kurd. Prior to 1918, Armenia practically has not had intelligentsia residing on its territory. The centers of Armenian Culture have been Tiflis, Istanbul, the island of St. Lazarus, and to a lesser degree - Moscow. Since 1918, the evolution of Armenia has been overwhelming. Disappointed and disillusioned people like Martiros Sarian, Avetik Issahakian, Alikhanian, etc, have flown to Armenia. More importantly, within one generation, Armenia has been capable of successfully implementing on its soil the rich traditions of the incredible Russian Science, and has given birth to such giants as Viktor Hambartsumian, Giurzadian, Mergelian, etc. It has also given birth to giants like Tigran Petrosian, and so on. Why? I say because there was a vision in place, people did believe in the future of Armenia - however limited its scope, they were excited even by the mere fact of semi-sovereignty, and they wanted to build. To someone who has not known Armenia, this may sound like either propaganda or exaggeration. But this is the reality. To those who have not known Armenia, everything that has taken place there is associated with Stalinism or Communism. However, the 70 years of Soviet Armenian history have been, by in large, glorious years – something that I, myself, have been in denial of during my youth. These years have perhaps been the longest period in the entire history of Armenia, when Armenians have been let to live in relative peace and create. The result has been an overwhelming success. With the decline of the Soviet Union, and the decay of its ideology, the attitudes and the ways of Armenians in Armenia have also declined (perhaps effective mid 70s) – effectively, starting from the Demirchian era. However, those who have known Armenia and Armenians of the 1988-89, are aware of a temporary wakening of a nation with immense potential. Too bad that it has been put asleep, again. I strongly believe that the giants are there – in their mothers’ wombs, in kindergartens or elsewhere. What we don’t have is that wakening call, and the leaders who would sound that call. What we lack are leadership, vision and perspective. The existence of charlatans, or better to say, the survival of the charlatans and the “punchoonies” is a result of the vacuum created by the absence of a positive and realistic message and direction. For this reason, I hold not the charlatans and “panchoonies” responsible for our ills, but those capable men and women, who could’ve made a huge difference, but have decided to hide inside their “shells.” Just look at our forum – you are the only professional Armenian writer participating in these discussions. Where are our other writers, academicians, historians, the other intellectuals, businessmen? Let’s assume that this forum is not the proper format for them to come forward? Is there any other forum of any other format that they might find appealing to participate in? [ April 13, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Sarcastic Remarks To Get You Through The Day 1. And your crybaby whiny opinion would be...? 2. Do I look like a people person? 3. This isn't an office. It's hell with fluorescent lighting. 4. I started out with nothing and still have most of it left. 5. I pretend to work. They pretend to pay me. 6. Sarcasm is just one more service we offer. 7. If I throw a stick, will you leave? 8. You...! Off my planet! 9. If I want to hear the pitter patter of little feet, I'll put shoes on my cats. 10. Does your train of thought have a caboose? 11. Errors have been made. Others will be blamed. 12. A PBS mind in an MTV world. 13. Allow me to introduce my selves. 14. Whatever kind of look you were going for, you missed. 15. Suburbia: where they tear out the trees and then name streets after them. 16. Well, this day was a total waste of makeup. 17. See no evil, hear no evil, date no evil. 18. Not all men are annoying. Some are dead. 19. A woman's favorite position is CEO. 20. I'm trying to imagine you with a personality. 21. A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door. 22. Stress is when you wake up screaming & you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. 23. Can I trade this job for what's behind door #1? 24. I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted paychecks. 25. Too many freaks, not enough circuses. 26. Macho Law prohibits me from admitting I'm wrong. 27. Nice perfume. Must you marinate in it? 28. Chaos, panic, & disorder - my work here is done. 29. I plead contemporary insanity. 30. And which dwarf are you? 31. How do I set a laser printer to stun? 32. Meandering to a different drummer. 33. I majored in liberal arts. Will that be for here or to go?

I guess she wouldn't be too original in that case.

My younger daughter has declared today that no good Christian should go to school on Good Friday. So, she stays home.