MJ

Best of my wishes to you my friend!

Alexander Popov -the Russian one. In fact, they say Popov has alleged that Marconi has stolen the idea from him. As to the German Forgottenhisname, I should say, LOL, I meant I have Forgotten his name.

MosJan and MJ are two different members.

Much like it is still an ongoing debate whether the radio has been invented by the Russian Popov, Italian Marconi or German Forgottenhisname. [ May 12, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Fine with me. What agenda? Has anyone claimed that you have an agenda other than you presented in your message? We just want to attach a "face" to the postings of our “opponents.” Your aspirations for peace are also commendable. But other than peace in the region, our nation needs inner peace. And like Dalai Lama once said, recently, "I grow older and healthier," we also grow older and healthier, and stronger, and are perhaps on the right track of building inner peace, since we are learning to deal with our problems and elevate ourselves over them. But trust is built over time, based on experiences we have with each other. You can be whomever you want to be, as long as you present yourself genuinely. But as the old paraphrasing says, "The devil is not as spooky as its name." And it is my profession to resolve contradictions and simplify complexities. [ May 12, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by hayemyes: I was asked the following question to answer it till sunday. Anybody help? Who was the first person, born in Baku who created color tv. He is supposed to be armenian, and buried in the Yerevan Banteon. I think the color TV is invented by an American Armenian with a last name Hovhannessian. I doubt he is buried in Banteon in Yerevan.

quote:Originally posted by HarutPakhanyan: last year when we were talking about Nune almost everybody was complaining about her. now i see everybody is praising her. what has changed? (sorry if i'm wrong ) Because much like when you tell the same story over and over again, every lie may be accepted for a truth, the music also has the quality of when advertised over and over again, people come to accept it. This is what has happened to rabiz. When it appeared in Armenia, everybody was making fun of it, but then, it got advertised so much for the fun of it, that people's ears become accustomed to it. This is especially easy when alternatives are not offered.

Domino, I see no point in this argument. After all, we are not deciding Armenia’s fortune here, right? Just for clarity, I have not said there hasn’t been such thing as pan-Turanism. I have just considered that it has been taken way out of proportion by some historians, as well as by you, and it has been the main doctrine of Armenian enslavement in the post 1920 history. Again, I find it not only a pointless argument as it concerns you and me, but in general, I find it as one of the biggest misinterpretations of the history and the causations of the events in the Turko-Armenian front. I probably wouldn’t like to add anything to this. I would like to also add that if we were to take serious all the speeches given in all political congresses, clubs, and fundraising “barahandesner,” then we could’ve explained the events of the period subject to discussion in the context of “tsovits-tsov Hayastan.” As to the attacks, no I haven’t meant you. But you and all of us know perfectly well that my remarks were valid, right? Circassian, Note that my acknowledgement is of a conditional character. I will acknowledge anything which corresponds to the truth - no matter politically how inexpedient. But first, I have to be clearly told what is it that I have to be acknowledging. [ May 12, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by Domino: Dates. 1. Halil excursions in Karabagh on April 1920, and his report to Karabekir about the execution of the Armenians in Karabagh. This is what I was asking for. Now, what does it have to do with the Genocide? By this date, the Genocide was already a done deal, right? It has continued beyond this date in some ways only in Cilicia, right? quote: 2"The aim of all Turks is to unite with the Turkic borders. History is affording us today the last opportunity. In order for the Islamic world not to be forever fragmented it is necessary that the campaign against Karabagh be not allowed to abate. As a matter of fact drive the point home in Azeri circles that the campaign should be pursued with greater terror and severity."( source: Karabekir, Istiklâl Harbimiz/n.2/, p. 631) Lets me remind you that Halil and Karabekir were considerated as the Suprem generals of the Eastern front. So what? If this is what they say in 1920, and in 1921 they sign a treaty of accord with Russia, what's the importance of all this noise? Sure, Enver was still fighting against the Russians in the Asian front. Was it on behalf of Turkey, or was it his fix idea? Or maybe after committing the Genocide, and being condemned, he had found a safe refuge in the Asian front, and had become a local warlord? quote: 2. For Russian policy in the Caucasus, it could have an impact, but here, because of the fact that the war has been engaged by Ottoman by bombing the Russian Navy, it would be difficult to accuse the Russians of the actions made by Ottoman. Domino, with all due respect, it is evident that you have never studied and you don't know the history of our First Republic (1918-1920/21), and you don’t know anything about the new Turkish expedition in 1920 and the parties inspiring, financing and supporting it. quote: 3. Now that Circassian has gave a link(a bad idea for him) he will possibly not come here anymore, since some juicy attacks against Armenians are present there. As for forgeries etc... What's new about this link? I have always known about it, though have never visited. I can imagine what the tone of discussions may be there. But many of our Armenian Forums wouldn't be much different from it, right? Or do you mean just because we have been the victims of the Genocide, it is allowed to us to be *******s (forgive my French), but not them? quote: 3. Now Martin about Morphin injected, for me it makes a difference, conserning the premeditation and the structural plan of the extermination, when you use injections mass drowning of orphans, burning gates etc... the killing by its action become without dought a prepedited action, when you killed with injection thousands of childrens you can not alleg that they were don by brigand bands by accident etc... since the injection was don in Red Croissante hospitals, by doctors. Domino, who is arguing the premeditation? Had it not been our position that the killings of Armenians, including children, had been premeditated on the state level, why would we pursue it in the "Genocide" category?

quote:Originally posted by circassian: MJ You are saying that the evidence is you i.e the armenian people. Well in anatolia we also have some survivors who also testify that the armenian irregulars were engaged in massacering of local turks/kurds/cherkes/afhsar,arab i e nonchristian local population.We also have eyewitnesses and surivivors of these attroticies. What shall we do with those people who have suffered at the hand of " armenian freedom fighters or bandits depending on your point of view. Circassian, Follow our footsteps. Document the Armenian atrocities, put them in context, and present it to the attention of suitable parties and organizations. For the sake of the success of the discussion in this forum, please formulate your allegations more precisely. For example, be more specific about the scale of the Armenian atrocities, the source of those atrocities, who was behind them, their targeted aim, the context of these atrocities, etc. If Armenians have done atrocities, which at least theoretically speaking might've happened, many of us wouldn't feel proud of it, believe me.

Domino, Sorry, but I don’t see the logical connection. What kind of justification did the Ittihat need to exterminate Armenians? Who were trying it to justify to? Azeris, Turkmen? Kazakhas? I think you should be able to fund the Yale Journal of International Law in the Law School Library of your University. Otherwise, you can request it through the Interlibrary Loan program. Just talk to the Reference Desk of your School Library. I am not familiar with “United and Independent Turania, Aims and Designs of the Turks.” If you could provide us with the conclusions of that article, and be as precise in its wording as possible, I would appreciate it. If you can scan it and send it to Garo, I hope Garo would find time to post it somewhere in the forum. At different times Turks, Russians, Brits have tried to organize Azeri troops. In my view it has not had much to do with Armenia, but with a desire to dismantle Iran. Overall, I am having a little hard time to follow your arguments on pan-Turansim. Could you bring some dates of the expedition of Hallil, and be as factual as you can? I don’t know the details of his expedition. The way you communicate it may be good for someone who already know what you are referring to, but not for those who don’t know. You can also send Garo the chapters of Dadrian’s book you mention on the subject of pan-Turanism. Again, I don’t see what the extermination of Armenians had to do with pan-Turanism. Armenians were a growing headache for the Ottomans in the context of preserving Anatolia not in the context of expending the Empire. “For me the genocide had two stade, the first one was about the "Turkism" and the elimination of Ottoman Armenians for this, second the Pan-Turanism, that would result of the elimination of the Armenians of the Caucasus, the second plan didn't succeded well, but only taking the letters of Enver and Talaat from Berlin to Karabekir, we see that after the mission of eliminating compleated, they had a mission of linkage. If not then what Karabekir and Halil troups were doing in the other front trying to link the Azeris with the Ottoman ? – Domino.” Somehow, I don’t see where does Russia come-in in your passage referenced above. Does the new Russian policy in Caucasus and the importation of the World Revolution to the shores of Mediterranean have any place in your arguments? Additionally, I think that is his responsibility of Circassian to support his arguments with facts, and it is our responsibility to support with facts whatever we say. And the story about the morphine, in my eyes, doesn’t add or diminish to any degree the criminality of the intent and the execution. What difference does it make if children are killed as a result of injection of morphine or by putting a hole in the scull? Less arguments like this we use, more to the point we would be, I think.

Unfortunately very soon there was a split between the members in relation to the question of pan-turanizm i.e Kizil Elma. Why unfortunately? While certain members were in favour of elimination of the christian population from the new system of power - to - come others were sceptical & unwilling to even consider such an approach. Probably. But those at the executive branch of power were for the elimination, as the subsequent facts came to show, right? The Ottoman empire's last dying years were populated by spies & counter spies. What’s strange about it or what’s new there? Wasn’t the same in Russia, Germany, Britan? The " Sick Man of Bosphorous " was to be carved out for the allied forces. Did you mean to use the expression “Sick man of Europe?” Under these circumstances , most minority christian millet were harrassed by ottoman irregulars. Just the irregulars? Besides, to call it harassment is about the same as to call the Tomahawk missiles devices for cultivating the soil for agricultural purposes. To have a main plan to exterminate armenians in the east might of been the policy of certain factions within the ittihat & terrakki party's agenda. I have already addressed this issue above. How about the Armenians in the Western provinces, by the way? And don’t you think that in 1939 there were a lot of high-ranking civilian and military figures in Germany against the extermination of the Jews or starting the WWII, for example? Coupled with the fact that re-location was viewed as an opportunity to take revenge on marching armenian millet. Marching Armenian millet? When and where has this happened, and which Armenian millets have marched [against the Ottoman Empire, I presume]? As you are aware Ali Suat has shed some light on that issue on this forum. I do indeed remember what Ali has shed light on. But I have understood him very differently, somehow. And I wish Ali was back to indeed shed light on this and on other issues he had started doing in such an intriguing manner. To think that the ittihat terakki planned & executed 1.500.000 people and manage to do it without leaving any paper trail or any other kind of solid collobarating evidence ... do I need to remind you the burocratic traditions that were in place at the time? We are talking about Ottoman's here !!! The very people who have obsessively documented & archived everything they ever did. In 16. century , when the richest library of the west i.e Rome had approx. 25.000 indivisual documents , at the same time Ottomans had approx. 1.8 million documents in their library. For centuries Ottoman's have recorded everthing from at least 2 or 3 different sources. Some how Ottoman's manage to commit the worlds first alleged genocide and furthermore they have done it in a way that has left no evidence other then the newspaper reports. I have partially addressed this statement of yours before. Additionally, as a matter of logic and methodology, it is easier to claim that “a paper-trail exists,” rather than “there is no paper-trail.” How did you come to this conclusion, btw? And they did it while they were in a perpetual war against at least 2 or 3 different fronts. It doesn’t take much might to slaughter peasants – primarily their women, elderly and children, right? The explanation is more likely to be found by simply asking to anatolian peasants. And what would they say? P.S. Sorry for the Question&Answer tone of this memo. I haven’t gotten into the mode of writing essays this morning, yet.

Did you do it at the Black's beach?

I do... I do... In the summer of 93 I have participated in a two-week long workshop at the UCSD, i.e. at the La Jolla Campus.

Hey, it is a torture to type 9 letters every time I have to pronounce your name. Besides, it sounds sort of Armenian, wouldn't you agree? Could you think of something shorter Given the popularity of the name MJ these days, how about a variation of it? Say, C-MJ ?

Circassian, I am tired tonight. It is past 11:00 pm, here. Don't have the energy to reply in details. (Domino has consumed it all. ) All I would like to tell you at this time is that your arguments are based on several false premises. Most importantly the one on the Ottomans not leaving any paper trail behind. Neither you nor I have had access to the Ottoman Archives. Additionally, we don't have the inventory count of those archives in terms of the numbers of the paper-shredders. But believe me, there are preserved documents (for example the materials of the Turksih courts with their verdicts against some of the perpetrators of the Genocide), and enormous collaborating evidence. The primary collaborating evidence is us, however. And there is much more. So bare with us. Let me have some rest tonight, and hopefully, this topic may be picked up tomorrow.

Dear Domino, In this forum it is allowed to disagree – even with the arguments of the moderators. But not with their disciplinary actions. I don’t think that anybody denies that Turkey itself has made the decision to enter the WWI. What does it prove about pan-Turanism? I don’t know who has been General Hallil’s mission in East. Perhaps, you could share with me and others? Then, maybe, I would be able to express opinions. Let’s assume that your arguments about the strength of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire are correct. How do they imply necessity of the pan-Turanist doctrine, and how that pan-Turanism would’ve helped to curtail Armenians’ presumed strength? I indeed respect Dadrian. I have met him several times at different occasions, and have spoken to him even two days ago over the phone. I am very impressed by his immense knowledge, his iron logic and his energy for his age. Additionally, I am very far from being a Genocidologist, or a historian for that matter. Moreover, to be frank with you, I have only peripheral interest in the subject of Genocide Studies. So, I wouldn’t claim any expertise. But I try to filter out emotions out of my conclusions, and if I would be wrong in something (if I realize it), I would change my opinion momentarily. However, with all this said, if any argument of Dadrian is not convincing to me, I wouldn’t hesitate to question it. And since you have decided to use the “Dadrian’s authority” argument, let me tell you that I have never heard him to even use the word “Pan-Turanism.” Additionally, I have not come across that term in those of his articles that I have read. But since you have come across his usage of that term or argument, please be more specific, provide us with his exact wording and references. From my side, I would like to refer you to one of his most fundamental works, the electronic version of it, unfortunately, is not available to me. Here is is: Genocide as a Problem of National and International Law: The World War I Armenian Case and its Contemporary Remifications Yale Journal of International Law, Vol. 14, No. 2 I would strongly recommend this {334 page+Appendices+Bibliography} publication to you as one of the most fundamental publication on the subject. While reading this large material, unless my eyes have skipped over it, I have not come across a single mention of a “pan-“ word. Instead, here is what Dadrian writes in the section “A. The Legal-Political Context” of the Chapter II of the refered above work: “Evidence suggests that Turkey’s entry into World War I was substantially influenced by a desire to create a suitable opportunity to resolve once and for all certain lingering domestic conflicts. The recent literature analyzing the problem of genocide is replete with discussions recognizing this historical fact. Several of this discussions singled out the 1894-96 Abdul Hamit-era massacres as a historical antecedent of contemporary issues of genocide, while others focus on the World War I massacres.” Upon request, I will provide you and others with the references he provides (it’s a long list – spare my effort please ), all of which, by the way, are European and American sources of the period 1946-1988. If you force me, I will provide more evidence to support my statements even based on Dadrian’s own arguments, as much as I would hate to sit here and retype from his work the necessary material. But don’t do it please. It hearts my neck to look left-and-right while typing.

I really don’t see in what way that doctrine was needed or has served the execution of the Genocide. Armenians of the Ottoman Empire in no way have been an obstacle for the allege program of Pan-Turanists, they have been too week, they have been too loyal, too disorganized, and an absolute minority in Anatolia. What one might’ve theoretically considered obstacle on the way of Pan-Turanists might’ve been the Eastern Armenia, which on such capacity didn’t even exist at the time – it was part of the Russian Empire. I also don’t see why do you claim the Ottoman Turkish government was foolish. I think it is a bad argument. You judge about the foolishness or the wisdom of a government by its accomplishments. And the facts came to show that they accomplished the tasks at their hands, and even after being brought down to their knees they turned the tables around. As a matter of fact, they might be considered one of the cases studies of the most successful regimes of the last century, no matter how criminal. I am also not aware of any serious Pan-Islamist movements –neither historically nor in modern days. Sure there have always been such conversations, but it has had or has as much chances or perhaps less, as a pan-Christian movement. The religion has been of no interest to Ittehat, and if Armenians were even Buddhist, their destiny was defined for quite some time. The religion was only a mechanism of identification of different groups of people, since in Islamic societies people, at least traditionally, have been identified by their religion and not by their ethnicity. And in general, I always am very skeptical of any pan-Xism movements and doctrines. I don’t think that any pan-Xist movements in history have had any adequate weight - let it be pan-Turanism, pan-Islamism, pan-Slavism or pan-Armenianism. Or should I say pan-Aryanism? Things are more concrete in history, and less universal, and no one wants to voluntarily surrender sovereignty (except perhaps some Armenian political parties ).

Circassian, This is not a contest of who would have the last word, right? Especially that not necessarily it is the last word which is remembered, but the most well argumented word. Did you mean in your previous posting that the accusation of you being racist doesn't have legs? If yes, I am happy to have a confirmation of it. You might've noticed that the number of people interested in the topic has increased, and I suspect it is going to increase further. This probably would imply increase of intensity of discussions and, unfortunately, emotions. If the norms are violated, it would obligate us to exercise the editorial hatchet more frequently, regardless of which side would force it. If the necessary ethics is not observed, the material would be edited, and the "Rule of Three Strike" would eventually be exercised.

No, it is not a double standard. He did it before the Moderator's warning, and stopped after the warning was issued. You continued it after the warning, thus undermining the Moderator's authority.

OK, Circassian, it works like this: when a moderator asks you and others to hold the rhetoric, and not to personalize, you and the others do it. And when your counterparty decides to "ignore" you, your best bet is to “ignore” him, too. But if you decide to, nevertheless, argue do it at least on the merits. This was for the 6 years olds. This one is for the adults: please follow the Code of Conduct of the Hye Forum, which has delivered to the attention of all members of the forum a while ago through a special email from the Administrator. If for whatever reasons you don't have the text of the Code, we would gladly post it here.

Domino, I will just say that, I hope admittedly, Yves Ternon is not the highest authority in these issues, as much as we may recognize him as a great humanist and intellectual. As the Pan-Turanism was concerned, it has been just a peripheral (not in terms of its geography but its weight) political concept in Ottoman Turkey. In what way might’ve it been a “supplement?” They had the decision to eliminate Armenians, and all they were missing was a political outlook for the future expension of Turkey? The WWI has provided them with the perfect “supplement” that was missing. The Ottoman Empire was crumbling, and they were trying to save it. What you suggest means that under the tremendous misery that the Turkish nation or the Turkish State was at the time, when fighting almost the entire world, they were planning further expansion of the Empire? I find it very hard to defend such thesis. As to the rest of your material, I agree with some of your arguments, and disagree with some others. But I am not going to negate what I disagree with it, since there are enough members in the forum who might have a vested interest in its negation, and they can do it. I don’t have such interest in it.

Domino, I remember Pigeti, with whom we have had a brief interaction in Ararat's forum. I remember him as a very intelligent person with soft manners. If I remember correctly, he is a University of Berkley Graduate Student, right? Please give my regards to him, and feel free to invite him to our discussion board. While a lot of things that Pigeti has concluded as a result of his research don't raise any question for me, with all due respect, I have to declare that never in my life have I been able to accept the Pan-Turanism as a valid motivation or a geopolitical cornerstone of the Ottoman Turkish policy, or the policy of the Republic of Turkey in the old or even new days. Of coarse, there has been such thing as Pan-Turanism. Obviously, Enver has been very hot on it. But it has not been the motivation behind the Genocide, nor it has ever been a mainstream political concept in Turkey. As Pigeti himself implies, the Genocide of Armenians has been in the acts since the late 19th century, probably starting from Adana. At that time there has been no Pan-Turanism in the Turkish plate or a mention of it, if I am not mistaken. What has missed at the time has been the opportunity of its implementation. While the WWI clearly not being the reason of the Genocide, it has provided the Ottomans with the long waited opportunity to implement it. In the old Armenian politology Pan-Turanism or Pan-Turkism has been absolutised and portrayed as a category explaining the Turkish policies towards Armenians. I consider this opinion to be one of incompetence (nothing to do with Pigeti) and lazyness. Sort of "if there is an easy explanation, no matter how wrong it may be, why to go for more complex ones, especially that they may not be sanctioned by the perimeters defined by the Soviet politology, and especially that we are just talking, and we don't believe ourselves in any real implications." After all, the phantom of Pan-Turanism is what has kept the Armenian "horse in the barn" for decades. I have few other things to take care of, now. Have to run. Talk to you later.

Domino, It's fine. As long as all of us can maintain the norms of ethics and minimal professionalism, everything is fine. But we are not "Internet worriers" here, and for those who are positioned to fight a "war," there are other sites and forums for it, or better there are other places. We are trying to be a forum of reason and sense. Anybody who wants to talk reason or sense is welcome here. Your are free and welcome to introduce us to your reasoning behind the Genocide, and so is Circassian, and so is anybody else. We would read them with great interest. Not for the two of you, but for everybody in the forum, on behalf of the moderators and the administrator of the forum, I have to remind that now we have a formal Code of Conduct in this forum. In the past we might've not vigorously exercised it, and I, personally, might've occasionally violated it. But we are currently poised to exercise vigorously the "Rule of Three Strikes." The third violation of the Code of Conduct by the same member will result in termination of his/her account. Finally, now that I know your other online name, yes, I remember coming across in Arart’s forum, and welcome again. [ May 10, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Guys, For the sake of the positive atmosphere in this forum, for which we have been working hard, I would appreciate if you wouldn't transfer the legacy of your prior relationship in here.