MJ

quote:Originally posted by naira: What about Armenia? We are talking about Armenia, right?... There was a specific question about America. As far as Armenia goes, I don't think there is religious freedom there. However, the primary persecutor of religious freedoms in Armenia is the Armenian Church, as always.

Therefore, we have to interject ourselves into the middle of the Kurdish-Turkish controversy? Thank you for the good wishes.

America has a lot of elements of a (multi-) religious country. Clearly, it has been founded on such grounds. However, I am not aware of religious persecution in America.

And the moral/conclusion is...?

quote:Originally posted by naira: MJ, Actually, that doesn't mean that Armenia is a democratic country. The US model is trying to stimulate the private market. The European model stimulates both: private and public. Someone said that Armentel is hold by Greek company. I think it was 90% of share. In Europe and in the US, as well, the monopolists suck. A "Classic" logic. I'm not going to start debates on monopolism, communism or bolshevism. The question is why we need to be different from others by closing eyes on the reality. Armenia should cross a "long way of transition pain and patience", until it will accept easily with jokes and political anecdotes such "catastrophic scandals" like the one with Armentel and other historically known public monopolists...hope you got what I meant ...if you still did not understand. We can try private means of telecommunication? I hope you heard about the efficiency of forum "geisha" discussions. You should come and participate as well, honeybunny, otherwise we don't know if you are really having fun here! I'm not curious, at all! Actualy noone is! On a serious note, I didn't discuss democracy, did I? You go right ahead with the "underground," I'll stay on the surface and will give you my protection so far as the revenues justify it.

No there are no questions, but just dismissals of nonsense. As far as the facts are concerned, there has never been any “massive” Kurdish uprising, at least in the recent history, in Turkey. To the contrary, the absolute majority of the Kurdish population, especially their tribal elite has sided with the government of Turkey, and has rejected the leftist wing of Kurdish rebels/revolutionaries. Neither the lefts nor the rights of the Kurdish rebels have not opted for separation from Turkey. It is even more so today. I would recommend you to read the material at http://armenians.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimat...c&f=19&t=000017. As far as the map of Severs is concerned, I can also draw one or two maps a day. Are you willing to buy them? P.S. By the way, I would recommend that you carefully read your own material above. [ June 01, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

How about staying away from graphic descriptions, vulgarity and name calling no matter what topics are being discussed, in the first place?

quote:Originally posted by Boghos: The privatization of Armentel was clearly one of the major economic blunders of the republic. Just an example: Internet access, monopolized by Armentel, means expensive and unreliable service. OTE is also not exactly an example of a well managed company itself. I can understand some monopolitsic protection for a short period of time in order to upgrade the network, but what has been done verges on the irresponsible, if not criminal. If I am not mistakes a previous minister (Boghbadian, if not mistaken) was jailed partially due to his machination in this deal. Or am I confusing something?

quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose: Guys, I got a better idea. How about supporting Turks? Regardless of ethnic origin? We could, but it requires that Turks assess their past, and move away from it ...

The author provides documents from various sources, including from some of the letters of Theodore Herzl, which come to indicate that the founders of (Western) Zionism have actively interjected themselves actively in the middle of the Armenian-Turkish tension, and have attempted to use the conflict in the name of persuading Sultan Hamid to grant the Jews sovereignty on the territory of Palestine. It also provides documents of some collusion of some segments of the Jewish population of the Ottoman Empire in some local Armenian massacres. Additionally, it sheds light on the (business-economic) benefits that the Jewish population of the Ottoman Empire has received/has been offered as a result of the declaration of the Armenian population of the Empire “The Enemy of the Nation” by the Ottoman Government.

Now that we are both happy, perhaps we could go back to the subject of the thread? [ June 01, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Where did you take this from, Paul? Besides, what has ever been more repressive, and has had more fascistic consequences than religion?

Naira, I just was saying that "Bread and Chocolate" is French, without any hints of "going private. But as Russians say, "Tem ni menee, khod tvoikh mislii mne nravitsia."

Dear Taguhi, I think the question is built off of a false premise. As far as I understand, there is no "Kurdish fight inside Turkey," as far as the "liberation of Kurdistan" is concerned. But in any case, even if there was one, I don't see what business do we have to get into the middle of it.

I am not an expert to any degree, but if I am not mistaken the suffix "stan" traces its origins to Sanskrit. Isn't it?

Dear Thorny, I’d like to also give my cut on the issues you have raised. Overall, Sovetization might’ve been threatening for many nationalities on the territory of USSR. However, I would argue that its (negative) effect on Armenians from the cultural point of view has been marginal. Same with the Baltic states and Georgia. The dominant language of communications in Armenia has been Armenian, the absolute majority of schools have been Armenian, and so on. Armenian culture in Armenia has evolved in a uniquely Armenian way, and the Soviet influence has been marginal outside the scientific arena. Overall, it has been, in my view, a very positive experience for Armenia and Armenians, since the 70 years of peace on the Armenian soil have provided us an unprecedented opportunity to filter foreign influences (to a large degree) out of our culture and consciousness. The existing semi-sovereignty has been the primary vehicle to progress in the arena of Armenian culture. Unfortunately, it has started to contaminate, again. Armenian literature has evolved at accelerating rates, Armenian music has been cleaned from foreign influences, and has been returned to its genuine roots, and so on. The divorce and the crime rates have been extremely low (the later is still very low in Armenia). Yes, many women have worked – especially the younger ones. But it was good. Indeed atheism has been quite high in homeland. But it is high everywhere in Diaspora, too. Armenians, by in large are atheists, and have always been so, though many in Diaspora (and historically) may attend Church on a regular basis. However, this is more of a social phenomenon rather than having anything to do with faith. If there is validity to one thing that Armenians by in large have faith in, that’s of green color. And the aspects of culture that have been retained by Diaspora, by in large, are those of Ottoman heritage rather than Armenian. You are right that there are a lot of assertions from different sides on the subject of “who is real Armenian.” In my view this is such garbage. Nobody has the authority to make such determinations, and I couldn’t care less how many Armenian parents one has, or where does he/she come from. That is a wrong question. In my view, the correct question should be “What’s the purpose of being Armenian,” or “Why Armenian?” Is it just for the sake of preservation of a unique “biological species,” or is there a worthier purpose? The ethnic “Armenianness” has no value to me, whatsoever. “Pure Armenian, Half Armenian,” etc. Who cares? I would easier embrace a Turk who is the friend of Armenia rather than an Armenian who doesn’t care about Armenia. Our nation is at a juncture of self-determination. Not in terms of assessing “who we are,” but in terms of defining where we are headed and what our purpose as a nation is. In the next 50 years, this issue would be resolved once and forever, I think.

quote:Originally posted by naira: American food? No thanks. How about French?

quote:Originally posted by naira: The Banality of Indifference: Zionism & the Armenian Genocide'[/b] by Auron Yair Yes, someone has read it - at least most of it.

PRESS OFFICE Diocese of the Armenian Church of America 630 Second Avenue, New York, NY 10016 Contact: Chris Zakian Tel: (212) 686-0710; Fax: (212) 779-3558 E-mail: prl@armeniandiocese.org Website: www.armenianchurch.org May 31, 2001 ___________________ U.S. HOUSE & SENATE PASS RESOLUTION WELCOMING HIS HOLINESS KAREKIN II, HONORING 1700TH ANNIVERSARY Roster of 12 Senators & 22 Representatives Who Met with Catholicos Karekin During His Visit to Capitol Hill * * * MAY 23, 2001 (WASHINGTON, DC)--To honor the 1700th anniversary of Armenia's conversion to Christianity, the United States House of Representatives passed a resolution (with the Senate concurring) welcoming His Holiness Karekin II, the Catholicos of All Armenians, to the United States. The resolution was passed on May 23. That day's session of congress began with His Holiness delivering prayers before both the senate and house chambers. His Holiness was also guest of honor at a mid-day reception held later that same day, hosted by four congressmen and attended by a several dozen legislators. (Details appear in previously released story, "His Holiness Karekin II Receives Warm Reception on Capitol Hill"--May 24, 2001.) The text of the resolution appears below, followed by the roster of 12 U.S. senators, 22 representatives and two former congressional figures who met with Catholicos Karekin II on Wednesday, May 23, 2001. * * * 107th CONGRESS, 1st Session H. CON. RES. 139--CONCURRENT RESOLUTION Whereas the Armenian people have lived in their homeland for more than 3,000 years and created a unique civilization; Whereas two of Jesus Christ's own disciples, Saint Thaddeus and Saint Bartholomew, introduced Christianity in Armenia and were the original founders of the Armenian Church; Whereas in 301 A.D., Saint Gregory the Illuminator Christianized the entire country of Armenia, was consecrated the first Catholicos of Armenia, and baptized King Drtad of Armenia as a Christian; Whereas in 301 A.D., King Drtad declared Christianity to be the official religion of Armenia, making it the first Christian state in the world; Whereas Armenian Church leaders opened schools, cared for the sick and needy, and created alphabets for Armenia and Georgia to make the Scriptures more accessible to the people; Whereas Armenians' devotion to God led them to create distinctive styles of manuscript illumination, architecture, sculpture, and textiles, that are recognized as masterpieces of Christian art and as major contributions to world art; Whereas the Armenian Church has persevered in its faith throughout the past 17 centuries in cultures that were hospitable to it and others that were hostile; Whereas the Armenian Church actively participates in ecumenical bodies and movements, uniting Christians of all denominations world-wide; Whereas more than 100 communities throughout the United States will celebrate the 1700th anniversary of the acceptance of Christianity in Armenia with special worship and ecumenical services; Whereas in celebration of the 1700th anniversary, His Holiness Karekin II will visit the United States; Whereas the 1700th anniversary is an appropriate occasion to celebrate the ideals and values shared by the people of the United States, the people of Armenia, and the Armenian Church in America; Whereas representatives of the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim faiths, including representatives of the Armenian Church, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, and the National Council of Churches of Christ in the U.S.A., will celebrate an ecumenical prayer service on May 30, 2001, at the Catholic Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception on the occasion of the 1700th anniversary; Whereas the Armenian Church, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, and the National Council of Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. have chosen the theme 'Walking Together in the Light of Our Lord' as the message to embrace the ecumenical spirit of brotherhood on the occasion of the 1700th anniversary; and Whereas the Armenian Church has established parishes throughout the United States and has contributed to the quality of religious life in this Nation: Now, therefore, be it Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), that the Congress-- (1) congratulates the Republic of Armenia on the occasion of the 1700th anniversary of the acceptance of Christianity in Armenia; (2) welcomes His Holiness Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians, on his visit to the United States; and (3) joins with the people of Armenia, the Armenian Church in America, and His Holiness Karekin II in celebrating the ideals and values they share with the people of the United States. Passed the House of Representatives May 23, 2001. * * * Listed below are the Congressmen and Senators with whom His Holiness met during his Washington, DC, visit on Wednesday, May 23, 2001: MEMBERS OF THE U.S. SENATE (12) Senator George Allen (R-VA) Senator Tim Johnson (D-SD) Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) Senator Ben Nelson (D-NE) Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) Senator Harry Reid (D-NV) Senator Paul Sarbanes (D-MD) Senator Charles Schumer (D-NY) Senator Jeff Sessions (R-AL) Senator Arlen Specter (R-PA) Senator John Warner (R-VA) MEMBERS OF THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES (22) Speaker of the House/Representative Dennis Hastert (R-IL) Representative Xavier Becerra (D-CA) Representative Shelly Berkeley (D-NV) Representative Eric Cantor (R-VA) Representative Joe Crowley (D-NY) Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA) Representative Mark Kirk (R-IL) Representative Gerald Kleczka (D-WI) Representative Joe Knollenberg (R-MI) Representative Tom Lantos (D-CA) Representative John Lewis (D-GA) Representative Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) Representative John McHugh (R-NY) Representative Michael McNulty (D-NY) Representative Constance Morella (R-MD) Representative Grace Napolitano (D-CA) Representative Frank Pallone (D-NJ) Representative Adam Schiff (D-CA) Representative Christopher Shays (R-CT) Representative Jim Traficant (D-OH) Representative Robert Wexler (D-FL) Representative Roger Wicker (R-MS) FORMER MEMBERS OF THE U.S. CONGRESS (2) Former Senator Bob Dole (R-KS) Former Representative Dr. Robert W. Edgar (D-PA) --5/31/01 EDITORS PLEASE NOTE: Electronic photos of His Holiness' visit to Capitol Hill, including pictures of Catholicos Karekin with various congressmen, may be downloaded from the Eastern Diocese's website: www.armenianchurch.org. Photos are linked to the press release titled "His Holiness Karekin II Receives Warm Reception on Capitol Hill," posted May 24, 2001. # # #

Bread and chocolate would be just right…

This is what is sad when one contemplates human life, that so many live out their lives in quiet lostness . . . they live, as it were, away from themselves and vanish like shadows. Their immortal souls are blown away, and they are not disquieted by the question of its immortality, because they are already disintegrated before they die. Soren Kierkegaard

"But crushing truths perish from being acknowledged.-A.C." Consider it as the first session of my promised shock therapy. Truly Yours, Sensual Despot

[QB]He has an impressions that this book is only the tip of the iceberg. Naira - Tell me about it! It's a long story. Some day, when I get rid of the pile on my desk, I'll do it. In fact, this is also suggested by the author of the book. Naira - Is this the only common point that unites him and the author? No. The author comes across as a rather common sense person, therefore there would be, I suspect, a lot of things uniting the two of them.

No complaints...

In the past, somewhere in the forum, I had pasted the following essay of Albert Camus. I think it fits very well into this discussion, so I am posting it here, again. _____________________________________________ The Myth Of Sisyphus -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The gods had condemned Sisyphus to ceaselessly rolling a rock to the top of a mountain, whence the stone would fall back of its own weight. They had thought with some reason that there is no more dreadful punishment than futile and hopeless labor. If one believes Homer, Sisyphus was the wisest and most prudent of mortals. According to another tradition, however, he was disposed to practice the profession of highwayman. I see no contradiction in this. Opinions differ as to the reasons why he became the futile laborer of the underworld. To begin with, he is accused of a certain levity in regard to the gods. He stole their secrets. Egina, the daughter of Esopus, was carried off by Jupiter. The father was shocked by that disappearance and complained to Sisyphus. He, who knew of the abduction, offered to tell about it on condition that Esopus would give water to the citadel of Corinth. To the celestial thunderbolts he preferred the benediction of water. He was punished for this in the underworld. Homer tells us also that Sisyphus had put Death in chains. Pluto could not endure the sight of his deserted, silent empire. He dispatched the god of war, who liberated Death from the hands of her conqueror. It is said that Sisyphus, being near to death, rashly wanted to test his wife's love. He ordered her to cast his unburied body into the middle of the public square. Sisyphus woke up in the underworld. And there, annoyed by an obedience so contrary to human love, he obtained from Pluto permission to return to earth in order to chastise his wife. But when he had seen again the face of this world, enjoyed water and sun, warm stones and the sea, he no longer wanted to go back to the infernal darkness. Recalls, signs of anger, warnings were of no avail. Many years more he lived facing the curve of the gulf, the sparkling sea, and the smiles of earth. A decree of the gods was necessary. Mercury came and seized the impudent man by the collar and, snatching him from his joys, lead him forcibly back to the underworld, where his rock was ready for him. You have already grasped that Sisyphus is the absurd hero. He is, as much through his passions as through his torture. His scorn of the gods, his hatred of death, and his passion for life won him that unspeakable penalty in which the whole being is exerted toward accomplishing nothing. This is the price that must be paid for the passions of this earth. Nothing is told us about Sisyphus in the underworld. Myths are made for the imagination to breathe life into them. As for this myth, one sees merely the whole effort of a body straining to raise the huge stone, to roll it, and push it up a slope a hundred times over; one sees the face screwed up, the cheek tight against the stone, the shoulder bracing the clay-covered mass, the foot wedging it, the fresh start with arms outstretched, the wholly human security of two earth-clotted hands. At the very end of his long effort measured by skyless space and time without depth, the purpose is achieved. Then Sisyphus watches the stone rush down in a few moments toward that lower world whence he will have to push it up again toward the summit. He goes back down to the plain. It is during that return, that pause, that Sisyphus interests me. A face that toils so close to stones is already stone itself! I see that man going back down with a heavy yet measured step toward the torment of which he will never know the end. That hour like a breathing-space which returns as surely as his suffering, that is the hour of consciousness. At each of those moments when he leaves the heights and gradually sinks toward the lairs of the gods, he is superior to his fate. He is stronger than his rock. If this myth is tragic, that is because its hero is conscious. Where would his torture be, indeed, if at every step the hope of succeeding upheld him? The workman of today works everyday in his life at the same tasks, and his fate is no less absurd. But it is tragic only at the rare moments when it becomes conscious. Sisyphus, proletarian of the gods, powerless and rebellious, knows the whole extent of his wretched condition: it is what he thinks of during his descent. The lucidity that was to constitute his torture at the same time crowns his victory. There is no fate that can not be surmounted by scorn. If the descent is thus sometimes performed in sorrow, it can also take place in joy. This word is not too much. Again I fancy Sisyphus returning toward his rock, and the sorrow was in the beginning. When the images of earth cling too tightly to memory, when the call of happiness becomes too insistent, it happens that melancholy arises in man's heart: this is the rock's victory, this is the rock itself. The boundless grief is too heavy to bear. These are our nights of Gethsemane. But crushing truths perish from being acknowledged. Thus, Edipus at the outset obeys fate without knowing it. But from the moment he knows, his tragedy begins. Yet at the same moment, blind and desperate, he realizes that the only bond linking him to the world is the cool hand of a girl. Then a tremendous remark rings out: "Despite so many ordeals, my advanced age and the nobility of my soul make me conclude that all is well." Sophocles' Edipus, like Dostoevsky's Kirilov, thus gives the recipe for the absurd victory. Ancient wisdom confirms modern heroism. One does not discover the absurd without being tempted to write a manual of happiness. "What!---by such narrow ways--?" There is but one world, however. Happiness and the absurd are two sons of the same earth. They are inseparable. It would be a mistake to say that happiness necessarily springs from the absurd. discovery. It happens as well that the felling of the absurd springs from happiness. "I conclude that all is well," says Edipus, and that remark is sacred. It echoes in the wild and limited universe of man. It teaches that all is not, has not been, exhausted. It drives out of this world a god who had come into it with dissatisfaction and a preference for futile suffering. It makes of fate a human matter, which must be settled among men. All Sisyphus' silent joy is contained therein. His fate belongs to him. His rock is a thing Likewise, the absurd man, when he contemplates his torment, silences all the idols. In the universe suddenly restored to its silence, the myriad wondering little voices of the earth rise up. Unconscious, secret calls, invitations from all the faces, they are the necessary reverse and price of victory. There is no sun without shadow, and it is essential to know the night. The absurd man says yes and his efforts will henceforth be unceasing. If there is a personal fate, there is no higher destiny, or at least there is, but one which he concludes is inevitable and despicable. For the rest, he knows himself to be the master of his days. At that subtle moment when man glances backward over his life, Sisyphus returning toward his rock, in that slight pivoting he contemplates that series of unrelated actions which become his fate, created by him, combined under his memory's eye and soon sealed by his death. Thus, convinced of the wholly human origin of all that is human, a blind man eager to see who knows that the night has no end, he is still on the go. The rock is still rolling. I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy. ---Albert Camus