oz

quote:However, I personally would claim that the insinuations on the Eastern Armenian lands within the boundaries of the first Republic of Armenia, as recognized by the state of Turkey (1918-1920) are quite real in terms of having merits. Do I believe that there is a realistic basis for claiming these lands back? Not really. What is done is done, and it is irreversible. I have tried many times to find an online text of the Russo-Turkish Treaty of 1921, so that to post it here, but have failed. I wonder why don't Russian and Turkish foreign ministries publicize that document? I would ask you to try to get your hands on that document and study it, so that to understand what's the basis of our feelings regarding these lands quote MJ; I'm a little bit confused about the agreement you are talking about. I know three agreements that could be you are looking for. 1- Turkey-Armenia-Azebaijan-Georgia, Kars-1921 2- Turkey-Russia, Moskow-1921 3- Turkey-Russia, Moskow-1921 I can send them to you, but unfortunetly I have only Turkish and French versions.

cont. Dear Raffiaharonian; 2- You are accusing us for an alliance with Israel. So what? Armenian government is in alliance with Iran, which is officially announced as a terrorist county. What can I say? I don’t like Israel’s policy against Palestinians. 3- Again, I must disagree with you; please remember that when you are pointing someone with your finger, other fingers show you. Violation of human rights is a big problem in all European countries. Turkish minorities in Greece still don’t have right to open their own schools, many other countries like France, Germany and Italy don’t let Muslims for having their own mosques; they just let them have mescits (a small mosque) German and French governments don’t hesitate to deport some immigrants for their minor crimes even if they had born and grown in their countries. Why don’t you get an Albanian passport and did something wrong(!) in France? I’m sure you will find the meaning or human rights then. ---- I have full respect for all Armenian freedom fighters. They fought and died for their people's independence. Please read my previous postings for my opinions. Personally, I’m against to all kind of violation. I’m not in a position to make a serious comment about Albanians or Chechens but I can say that I believe in freedom. By the way, I think you mean the word “gavur”. You don’t need to offence that much, it is not that bad. I checked it from dictionary for you: It means a person who is not Muslim, Christian. On the other hand, I know you have really bad expressions for us.

Hi Raffiaharonian; I wish one day you may visit your grandparents hometown. My grandparents were from Selanik and Girit (Crete). They relocated to Turkey by Greek Government; many of their relatives murdered. Last year I had an opportunity to visit Crete for this first time, it was really nice. The nicer thing about my vacation was Greek people. Generally, they didn’t bother me because of being Turkish. I had some good friendships there. You might have noticed that, in last couple of years we really developed our relationships with Greece. Personally, I’m glad to see Greek people in Turkey. I hope we can do the same thing with Armenia. I’m not dreaming having my grandparent’s lands back. It was the war, biggest crime against humanity, and I can’t do anything about it. Instead, I’m trying to improve my relationships with them to avoid further problems. I will continue to discuss other issues...

Lets clarify something here: 1- I have to yet see Turkish Government’s recognition of the crimes against the humanity and the massacres Turkish Government recognizes Ottoman Empire’s crimes against humanity and massacres. 2- Why there is no open discussion of it inside Turkey? Why the Turkish nation doesn’t have free access to that information, and moreover, those Turks who try to publish books on this subject, are being jailed? There is a wide-open discussion in Turkey. Some people defence the idea that Turkish Government must recognize the genocide to build up good relations with Armenia and Europe, some others don’t. Can you tell me that who was jailed because of defending the genocide? 3- Ironically, your comments also imply that if Turkey cannot legally rebuke the Armenian allegations of the Genocide, that is because the term “genocide” is incorrectly defined. Hope you would agree that this is a little bit of a strange argument, and under different circumstances may belong to the category of Humor. Its not humour. Its sad, but true. I think you should review the subject. Please take my first comment in consideration: We are not denying the massacres and crimes against humanity; we are just saying you cannot judge them under the law of Genocide. This part is really important: Armenian Government can easily go Lahey Justice Court for recognition of Genocide. If they recognize, according to international laws and agreements, Turkey must recognize it too. Sure Armenian Government knows that, but, instead, they try to persuade foreign parliaments to recognize the genocide.What’s the purpose of acting like this? Do you have any idea? It’s an expensive and dangerous game. One more time, Turkish Government recognizes the crimes of Ottoman Empire. All we need is a dialog process with Armenian Government. [ April 20, 2001: Message edited by: oz ]

Genocide First I wanted to post my respond about genocide under the topic genocide, but after I glanced at the previous postings now I feel that it really doesn’t matter. Since you had a lot of discussions I don’t want to start over about historical facts. But interestingly, I think you all didn’t noticed the main problem under the word “genocide”. You looked at the case very emotionally, like historians or sociologists. Lets look at from the view of law: First a little information: All governments were used the 1648 Westphalia States System until 1907. An absolute sovereign government was the main idea of that system which gives an unlimited right to the government for its interior affairs. Also, in this system international crime wasn’t defined. In 1907, war crimes were mentioned in “Lahey Rules” for the first time. But, also Lahey Rules didn’t cover war crimes at the homeland, particularly US didn’t want it. Between 1941 and 1945, Americans prepared a proposal for Lahey. They used the Martens rule to change the aspect of Lahey so they can judge the German Government’s interior affairs. In 1948, Genocide agreement signed and approved. Problem of genocide agreement: Genocide agreement doesn’t covers political groups. But who can define the term political group? In my personal view, it was professionally prepared for punishing the Germany while keeping other’s internal affairs untouchable. So, big massacres Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tasmania, Cambodia and Russia (Red October) didn’t taken into account as Genocides. Until 1992, because of the difficulties I mentioned, this law didn’t used effectively. After Rwanda, two international crime court worked on the issue and they accepted the fact crimes against the humanity could happen not only in the wars between countries but in civil wars too. Applications to Armenian Case: First of all, laws cannot be counted back in time (this is my personal opinion, states law could be different; but it is a small possibility). So, legally, you can’t accuse Ottoman Empire for genocide. Second, (I think we have problems here) because of Armenians allied with Russians, they must be taken in account as a political group. I think it explains clearly why politicians are trying to prove if there was a rebel or not. On the law side of view, that’s it… I know laws don’t sound humanistic, but I didn’t write them. In spite of opposite propaganda of Armenian Government, Turkish Government accepts the crimes against humanity and massacres. Only problem is they don’t accept the legal accusing of “genocide” It’s hard to believe that Armenian Government doesn’t pushes so hard for the term “genocide” on purpose. If they really believe that it’s genocide, they can go Lahey Justice Court and ask for justice. If not, please don’t push people, it hurts... [ April 20, 2001: Message edited by: oz ]

Claiming the Lands Back A Turkish journalist from CNN-Turk, M.Ali Birand, had an interview with Mr. Kocharian on February 2001 (I can't remember the exact day now). Mr.Kocharian stated that their goal is neither compensation nor a claim for the land, but he left a door open for Diaspora by pointing that we should not bond Diaspora's requests with Armenia's. Armenia and Diaspora must clarify their claims and views. Moreover, Mr. Paruir Hairikiyan, President of Human Rights Commission of Armenia - who is also known as a very close friend of Mr.Kocharian, states that Kars Agreement between Russia & Turkey must be cancelled and lost lands should be returned to Armenia. If you referenced about Mr.Hairikian and HRC with your words “some adventurous” and “some organizations” I think it is a serious problem, we can’t just call Mr.Hairikian as an adventurous. This issue became popular in Turkey after recognition of genocide by French Parliament, but it seems like it forms the backbone of Armenian propaganda. I’m sure that intelligent Armenian politicians know that taking the “lost lands” back is almost impossible (legally), but motivating people with this issue obviously works. In conclusion, I believe this issue really damages the relationship of our countries and cultivates hatred in our people’s hearts. You don’t need to go so far, if you just read the postings here you can see that. From this point of view, it seems like we are right about worrying about this issue.

Dear Steve; If you want to accuse Turkey and China about their crimes against humanity, its OK, but: 1-Read the topic first, is it relevant? Why don't you start an other group if you really want to express your feelings? 2-Don't even mention about Britain while you are accusing other countries about crimes against humanity and nationalism.

1- I have no doubt about merits of Armenian people, but we don't need to express our feelings about our people here. I believe that we both have beautiful people in our home countries, but it is not our topic. 2- I think it is a kind of Armenian propaganda; in Turkey nobody denies what happened and nobody honors the Ottoman Government of that time (except some racist & fundamentalist groups) By the way, please remember that, nobody gave us our independence as a gift; we fought against Allies and Ottoman Government. 3- Rebel attacks and Committees were not in a limited scope as you mentioned. Especially after French revolution, nationalism spread out all nations in the Ottoman Empire. Thus, in 1887 Hunchak and in 1890 Dashnak committees formed. Particularly, Dashnaks declared their goal as "to give freedom to Ottoman Armenians" As you mentioned, they pledged their loyalty to Ottoman Empire on August 1914, but then they attacked the city Van on 11 April 1915. An Armenian newspaper named Gochnak (in US) issued the good news to Armenians on 26 May 1915: "only 1500 Turks left in Van". Estimated Turkish population of Van was 60-70 thousands at that time. 4- “Armenian Rebels have fought and died for the independence of Armenia.” Is not a Turkish propoganda. I never heard it before in Turkey, It is my personal opinion. Let's look at that letter: (Reproduction of the letter from Boghos Nubar, Head of the Armenian Delegation to the Paris Peace Conference (1919), to the French Foreign Minister.) Translation of Boghos Nubar's letter: Dear Minister, I have the honour, in the name of the Armenian National Delegation, of submitting to Your Excellency the following declaration, at the same time reminding that: The Armenians have been, since the beginning of the war, de facto belligerents, as you yourself have acknowledged, since they have fought alongside the Allies on all fronts, enduring heavy sacrifices and great suffering for the sake of their unshakeable attachment to the cause of the Entente: In France, through their volunteers, who started joining the Foreign Legion in the first days and covered themselves with glory under the French flag; In Palestine and Syria, where the Armenian volunteers, recruited by the National Delegation at the request of the government of the Republic itself, made up more than half of the French contingent and played a large role in the victory of General Allenby, as himself and his French chiefs have officially declared; In the Caucasus, where, without mentioning the 150.000 Armenians in the Imperial Russian Army, more than 40.000 of their volunteers contributed to the liberation of a portion of the Armenian vilayets, and where, under the command of their leaders, Antranik and Nazarbekoff, they, alone among the peoples of the Caucasus, offered resistance to the Turkish armies, from the beginning of the Bolshevist withdrawal right up to the signing of an armistice. Boghos Nubar I think that gives answer. 5- I'm glad to meet with a friend like you who don't want to kill me just because I'm Turkish. 6- Point is, they don't go on court; they just go Parliaments of European countries or US, hoping they will force Turkey to accept their requests. If they are really sure about themselves, why they don't simply go Lahey? It would be much more cheaper than lobbying. 7- I will answer this intensively later. 8- Now the number becomes 1.75 million (CNN 1.18.2001) I don't want to argue the numbers anymore, it is not humanistic. We are talking about people here; 5000 or 5 million doesn't changes the fact in my view. 9- Again, I would like to talk about later probably under the genocide topic. 10- The number I gave was mostly civilians. And, you are right, some generals were found guilty and sentenced to death by Turkish Government because of their actions. Why didn't you comment on "claiming the lands back" issue? I think it is the biggest problem we have to deal. [ April 19, 2001: Message edited by: oz ]

Thanks for references, they are helpful. First I want to make two comments about your post: “the peaceful and loyal Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire” Emotional approaches can’t help us. Why don’t we try to be more objective? "the Turkish government of the time" Referring to Ottoman Government as Turkish Government is a fatal error. If you are sensitive to the differences between the words “massacre” and “genocide”, you should be sensitive to this too. --------------------- Armenian Government’s Approach Mostly, I found two disturbing issues on Armenian governments approach: First, They only talk about massacres of Armenians subjected by Turks. You cannot find anything about Russian-Armenian Allied forces and their massacres. I think it would be better to tell the truth about Russia to the new generation Armenians, so they won’t make the same mistakes again and again. Why don’t they even mention about Armenian Rebels (“hero” for Armenians) who fight and dead for their countries independence? Personally, I feel more respect for them in spite of their massacres. The government links I’m talking about: http://www.armeniaforeignministry.com/ http://www.armeniadiaspora.com/htms/history.html Second, Armenian government dictates the word “genocide” on purpose. The aim lies down that idea is the hope of claiming back of some lands. They are using the emotional power of the word “genocide”, but nobody checks the legal part. Causalities: It’s a very common trend to exaggerate Armenian causalities and turn a blind eye to Turkish ones. Turkey lost more than one million people in that region mostly from Armenian rebel attacks. It’s funny to say that Turks just died because of diseases and Armenians were massacred. In fact, you are right about diseases; hundred thousands of people killed by diseases at that period regardless of being Armenian or Turk or whatever. Total causalities of Turk’s was more than 2.5 million --------------------- This kind of discussing doesn’t help us. I found two main topics here: genocide problem and causalities. It would be better to focus on one, so we can discuss more intensive.

We are so uncomfortable with Armenian Goverments current policy. While they're dictating the word "genocide", they don't even recognize Turkish casualties. Turkish thesis says that starting from 1915 Russian and Armenian forces killed more than one million people living in that region. Do we agree?

I can tell you folks, we are so disappointed with this issue; around 1 million Turks were killed by either Russian or Armenian forces (but now people just remembers the Armenians, guess why?)in that area after 1914. Again, all we need is a little respect. When I'm talking with an Armenian guy, hearing that we are monsters and you are "innocent as birds"** drives me crazy. There was a massacre, nobody denies it; but as long as Armenian Goverment continues its policy that doesn't recognizes Turkish casualities how can we communicate? All Turkish families living in that region had lost a lot of family members in that war and stories to tell. Do you think all of them are lying? Today how many Turks left in Armenia? Especilly in Erivan? Any? Can you tell me how can we establish a permanant peace if we just stick on our stories and didn't respect other's? I strongly belive that there were NO problems between Armenian and Turkish people before the first world war. It had created artifically by Russia and France because of their "global" dreams. Look at these African countries, fighting each other, even they don't why. But western countries positively enjoy using their natural sources and selling them guns. Should we be like this? A note; recently Greece government postponed 4 billion US$ valued military equipment purchases to afford olympic games in 2004, immidiately after that Turkish Goverment postponed 19 billion US$ valued military projects. Does it make sense? Armenian and Turkish people lived together for centuries without any problem. I hope we can achieve that again. **This is the actual expression I heard from an Armenian guy. [ April 18, 2001: Message edited by: oz ]

"Why is it that when Indians win, it is massacre; and when Americans win, it is victory?" It's truth, horrible things happened, but both sides had hurt, and every story has two sides. Please ask yourself these questions: Why do you think that Ottoman Goverment decided to relocate Armenians after peaceful centuries? What was the reason for that? If they decided to kill all Armenians why didn't they started in Istanbul? Wouldn't be easier? If you don't accept the fact that also Turks were killed by Armenians at that time, how can we communicate? Do you think Armenian deads are more important than Turks? All we need is a little respect to our deads.

Thanks MJ That's why I'm here.

Nice to find some intelligent people out there... I'm Turkish and I would be delighted with having Armenian friends. No racists please.... we have enough idiots in Turkey.

quote:Originally posted by Anna: My Armenian pride would never ever let me to even talk to a Turk. I respect all the Armenians who fought & died for Armenia & for Armenians, so today we can have our own land & be free from those animals. Turks are the scums of this earth. Wake up people, I can not believe what some of you are saying. What you mean you wouldn't mind having a turkish friend??? ok, who cares if he/she's nice, did you guys foroget about 1915, 1905, 1885??? Did you forget that most of Aremnia is in Turkey now, did you forget that they are destroying our 2,000 year old churches in Turkey, & making money out of it, or sometimes even saying that those churches are Turkish?? Once a turk always a turk. Too bad ASALA isn't active today. I'm sure that your friend's ancestors hated Armenians. & what's the difference modern or ancient??? They are doing the same thing in 21st century, on Kurds. Just because they aren't called the "Ottoman Turks" doesn't mean that they are changed or they aren't the same "Ottomans". I just wish that there wasn't such a thing as a Turk or Turkey. They discriminate Armenians living in Turkey even to this day. I'm sorry for you Anna. For others, just for your information: There are approximately 40,000-50,000 Armenians living in Turkey now; mostly in Istanbul. After establishing Istanbul Armenian Patriarchate in 1461, 55 armenian churches had founded by Armenians. Istanbul Armenian Patriarchate is still working with 30 churches. Armenian community in Turkey now owns 30 Armenian schools, 17 Associations, 2 newspapers (one in Armenian), 2 sport clubs and several other clubs. All Armenians in Turkey have the same rights I have. I'm really sorry about seeing people like Anna, but it is not her fault. We should stop racism both in Turkey and Armenia, and only way is knowing each other. Thanks. [ April 17, 2001: Message edited by: oz ]