Khazar

Pachik-Machik, Sip-Meapahn... Does anyone know about adding the rhyming word beginning with "M"? Jews add "schm"... What about "m"? I always thought it was uniquely Armenian, but someone told me no, other Caucasians say it as well. Anyone ever seen Russian movie "Mimino" where one of the characters says "tantsurki-mantsurki"? And on kavkazweb.com, there was a young man lamenting his poor dating skills, saying, "I don't know what these girls want from me!! Maybe they want to go to the museum, or other such "kultur-multur". Does anyone outside of the Caucasus do this? Turkey? Iran? Anyone know? Or is it just one of those things with no answer, and who cares anyway?

Dear Arpa, Thank you for the clarification! So interesting! Edit: Like the word "kanayq", I guess that would be another example of this plural denoting phoneme...

Armenia is a post-soviet country, what should we expect? Armenia should definitely maintain the cultural and linguistic ties to the rest of the Former Soviet Union at least for the economic benefits - albeit, without losing 'Armenianness', of course. We can't disregard 70 years of Soviet rule, just like we can't disregard centuries of Ottoman rule. It's there! Take what you can from it! Don't try to lose it! How could you possibly refuse more knowledge? Given that, it would then be our duty to KNOW exactly what in our culture/language is Armenian and what exactly is Russian, and Turkish, etc. It's the mixing of and confusion of of the cultures that kills their original form. Anyways, back to RUSSIA! Just look at the region in terms of influence: Armenia has Russia. Georgia has the US. Azerbaijan has...oil companies!!! Would we rather have America and oil companies influencing Armenia? I personally would say, hell no! The thought of American troops on Armenian soil is just too much for me...

It will be interesting to see how it all pans out. Kocharyan is now the senior, the most-experienced president in the South Caucasus! In any other case, this would mean a new position of regional leadership for Kocharyan. But I just don't see that happening. Armenia goes where Russia tells it to go. (Which by the way, in the short-term is not a bad thing at all)

Caucasian, are you Cherkess?

The Khazar Kingdom existed from 8th-13th Century in the North Caucasus bordering the Caspian Sea and was a multi-ethnic and multi-religious state. When the kingdom collapsed, many of its Christians moved south-west, settled in Armenia and intermixed with the population. I was reading about it when I had to pick my name for this forum, so it was the first name to come into my mind.

It wasn't a speech. Be careful where you use the word Islamic. Or Christian, for that matter. BOTH Armenia and Azerbaijan (excluding populists from both sides) have avoided characterizing this conflict as a religious one, because to do so would be a huge mistake. I remember a few years back, Baroness Caroline Cox (British woman who has taken up various causes of Christian peoples, Armenian as well) wrote an open letter to Parliament calling for support of the Armenian NK cause as a cause of a Christian people against Muslim. She got some angry letters from, yes, Armenian politicians and intelligentsia who advised her never to do anything like that again. This whole topic obviously has religious overtones, but then how do you explain all those Chechen fighters who went to Christian Abkhazia to help them fight for independence? PiggyWiggy, I can't figure out what you're trying to say.

If you read my first post, or if you read anything about the conflict, you will see that it is not all Chechens that do that sort of thing. My comment about Armenians in Russia was to dispel the myth about our "Russian allies". And if you're asking about the difference between Armenians, Georgians and Chechens with regards to Russia: Armenia is not experiencing systematic human rights abuses by Russia like, "zachistki" security sweeps, murder and torture on its territory. And the territory of Armenia was not bombed by Russia last year (August) as Georgia was. Why don't Armenians blow themselves up? The above reasons are probably why. And if hostilities were to begin again, I still don't think Armenians would blow themselves up. And it's not because we are so smart and sensible and good. It's because we're not that desperate. We have our own republic, an army, our diasporans are generally well-off, educated and self-sufficient. In short, we have a future. That's just not the case in Chechnya, or Palestine for example. But back to the issue that was put forth in the VERY first place... Maribek Tamarov's statements should from the start raise some doubts. First of all, he's reporting from Baku. Secondly, he is not specifying WHICH Chechens he is talking about: there are so many factions and allegiances and clans that its just stupid to lump them all in one group. The article mentions Basaev, but given the current situation in Chechnya after the "elections" I seriously doubt Basaev is worrying about the situation in Artsax. Basaev has his eyes on Kadyrov and Moscow. Someone somewhere mentioned that the NK army is probably the most battle-ready in the Former Soviet Union. What do you guys think? NK obviously doesn't have the nuclear arsenal that Russia and Ukraine has, but I think the NK army is an army to reckon with.

Armo77, the two cases just cannot be compared, each case has its specificities. Fact remains this is going on RIGHT NOW as we speak. Why choose to ignore one historical tragedy just to say yours is worse? Isn't that how these things keep happening? Don't we say that about Jews who try to downplay the Genocide? Are people aware that many people in Russia don't give a crap what country you come from - if you're from the Caucasus, you will be harassed by police, called a black-*ss, beaten up, and treated like a 3rd class citizen, and sometimes murdered. They don't care if you're Armenian, Chechen, Georgian, whatever. Being Armenian in Russia doesn't make you special. As to who had it worse...you can't possibly attempt to measure human suffering.

Looks like things are coming to a head. Todays' gazeta.ru (for those of you that read Russian) http://www.gazeta.ru/2003/12/03/rossiaostavi.shtml it was titled, 'Armenians keeping Russians in Georgia". Burdjanadze has renewed the issue of kicking out the Russians from their two remaining military bases: Batumi and Alkhakalaki. In Batumi, the pro-Russian Adjars don't want to see them go, and in Alkhakalaki, the Armenians don't want to see them go. And the Russians don't want to see them go!!! I can see serious tension brewing as Tbilisi gets pissed off about this. I don't know how many Armenians live in Georgia, but I know it is a pretty significant number. This may begin to cause inter-ethnic problems...

In 1944 Stalin exiled the whole Chechen people en masse to Kazakhstan. According to some figures, half of all Chechens died. This fairly recent event is obviously still within the living memory of many. That was then, but have you read anything about what the Russians have been doing to the Chechens just in the past decade? And even right now? The systematic human rights abuses that are being committed there are some of the most disturbing and ghastly. Here is a tidbit from an interviewee in a Human Rights Watch Report from Chechnya, "Welcome to Hell" 2000: DON'T READ THIS IF YOU'RE SQEAMISH. "The woman that was with us in the vehicle [name witheld] was forty-two years old and has four children, she is from Tolstoy-Yurt. That evening when men were interrogated, that woman was beaten mercilessly. Judging from the noise, I could guess that she was being beaten with the rubber sticks, she was beaten. She was beaten for ten or fifteen minutes, with some pauses of one or two minutes. The, for half an hour we didn't hear her at all. We could hear everything that was going on in the jail, but could not see everything. In half an hour we understood that she had been raped. The soldiers were using bad language and this lasted for about thirty minutes." And another from the same report: "They also used electric power, they made you touch the wires. They just give you the wires and you are not allowed to see what it is, you just have to grab it. When I touched the wires, I felt like my eyes were going to pop out. This was the interrogation room. They made you stand with your hands up. Two soldiers hold you from behind and made you touch the wires. They shocked me like this once. After the interrogation, they took me back to my cell. I was unable to walk out because of the pain, and had to crawl back." For many Chechens, fighting Russia is not so much about freedom as it is about avenging the humiliation and death that they have been subjected to by Russian forces. I'm not making a moral stance about it, I'm just stating that as a fact. This is probably good news for Armenia in the short term. But we should also know, and KNOW WELL, WHO Russia is and what it has done to another Caucasian people, before we can RESPONSIBLY accept its assistance.

I would pretty much agree with that. If we didn't have these cultural similarities, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But, like you said, "had" is better than "have". I would hesitate to say that our similarities are not disappearing. They are. We are becoming more different as we haved moved away from them and into new countries and acquiring new national experiences, but that's only natural. But I still think some essential cultural similarities will never go away. And of course, through all of that, the essential Armenianess remains.

Sorry, I just had this image in my head of the 'evil turk', his evil laugh echoing while he rubs his hands together in glee as he fools people into thinking he's actually a good guy. Look, reducing the issue to us against evil them completely disregards the bigger issues: like, why is Turkey's nationality and cultural policies of the past still haunting it? What is it about modern Turkey that makes it so paranoid about its national identity and leads to (what some can call) the denial of its minorities' respective cultural and national identities? I think this particular type of weird nationalist tendency can even be applied to other countries like Serbia and Indonesia. They certainly have some things in common with Turkey vis-a-vis heading a multiethnic state.

Because our cultures ARE similar. Accepting the cultural similarities between us (Armenians and Turks) doesn't have to compromise our stance on the genocide! And denying the differences is just plain ignorant. How we define 'civilized' is extremely subjective, but to say one culture is more 'civilized' than another is dangerously over-simplifying what could be a valuable discourse. That doesn't do anyone any good.

The 'toe' dance you probably saw was the LEZGINKA!!! It is danced all over the Caucasus and Armenians have their version too! Some photos of other Lezginkas (& similar): Tell me, do their costumes look familiar? Dagestan http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Union...2/lezginka.html Adygea http://www.nalmes.ru/index.php photo gallery http://www.nalmes.ru/gallery/index.html downloadable dances http://www.nalmes.ru/repertoire/index.html Chechnya dance photos http://www.chechnyafree.ru/photo.php?desc=1&id=62 http://www.chechnyafree.ru/photo.php?desc=1&id=370 Ossetian dance photos http://www.russhow.ru/photo_alan.php Do these costumes look familiar, or what?? BTW!!!!!! Does anyone know how to dance Armenian lezginka? All I know is that it's slower (but more soulful!!) than most the other ones... how fitting, eh? But I found no photos of Armenian dance

Arsen is also used in Chechnya, Dagestan, and Kabardino-Balkaria, as far as I know! It seems to be a pan-Caucasian name. I think there is a consensus that it's Persian-derived? BTW, I like that name. Question: Who can tell me what the meaning of 'iants' or 'yants' is as the ending of an Armenian surname? Someone once told me it was indicative of nobility. Is this true?

That was really nice to read. Thank you!

One more thing: Events in Georgia mean that Kocharyan has all of a sudden become the most senior presidential/political figure in the TransCaucasus. He has more experience than the other presidents (and future president in Georgia's case). But can he use this to his advantage and actually become an influential regional leader?

Question remains: What position will the new leadership in Georgia take? Unlike Armenians, Georgians are highly suspicious of Russia and its influence. They will want a more pro-western stance. Georgia, however cannot live without close relations with Russia, for obvious reasons. We'll see how they balance it. Worrisome: There have been hints of awakening nationalism - people associated with Gamsakhurdia's presidency are coming out of the woodwork. This is scary for ALL the minorities of Georgia. In reaction to potential for a more nationalist govm't, South Ossetian, Abkhazian and Adjarian leaders today went to Moscow for a joint meeting with their Russian counterparts. I think they are preparing for the worst - just in case. South Ossetia and Abkhazia restated their desires to join the Russian Federation, and Abkhazia's pro-Russian stance is no secret. But any attempts to break away from a Georgia with a leader who will flatly consider it out of the question might lead to violence. Armenia should watch out for that.

Reading the above article, I immediately had a problem with this Tamarov guy. He, himself a Chechen, is failing to differentiate between regular Chechen civilians and the rebels. Moscow even has the sense to separate the two! One can even further define the different kinds of rebels (those that are merely fighting for freedom vs. the religious fanatics). But anyway, the only kind of Chechen that I can think of that would bother coming to Azerbaijan and fight is the Islamic fundamentalist Wahhabi, and for religious reasons. Is this who Tamarov is talking about? Without specifying, he is making very dangerous statements. Needless to say, these same Wahhabis are probably most hated by their own people!!! I honestly can't see this as being such an issue. Chechens have enough problems of their own. Any religious affinity they may have with Azeris is seriously overplayed by the media. Most Chechens are not THAT religious AND let's not forget Chechens' military assistance to the (mostly) Christian Abkhaz during early 1990s. BTW: In the Armenian Russian-language forums everyone seems likewise a bit confused as to the logic behind this - the Chechens' participation on the Azeri side was not that significant, and that in fact even Azeris aren't all that excited about their help anyways... but I don't know enough about it. But I know enough to doubt this Tamarov's motives. <_<

"несколько грузинских источников излагают легенду о братьях Айосе (Айке) и Картлосе (патриархе грузин). Надо сказать, что сами грузинские историки, писавшие об этом, признавали, что Айос был старшим братом, а Картлос - младшим." I didn't know that! Interesting. Considering the latest developments in Georgia, it will be interesting to see how the Armenians of Javakhk will react. Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Adjaria are seriously worried about what the new leadership will mean. There has been pro-Gamsakhurdia rhetoric seriously being awakened, and that is scary for all minorities of Georgia. South Ossetia and Abkhazia today reiterated their desire to become integrated into the Russian Federation (www.gazeta.ru). There is a serious possibility that things will end up in violence. Let's hope not. I must add however, that talk in the media and among some academics (both western and Georgian) about the Javakhk Armenians' separatist desires are a bit over-blown.

So can we assume a consistent 'k' ending (phoneme in linguistics?) for place names in Armenian? Another example comes to mind: The region of Javakheti in Georgian is called 'Javakhk' in Armenian. Again the 'k'!! By the way, there was a thread on the very same topic but on a message board for Dagestanis. Someone was proposing changing the whole name of 'Daghestan' - a turkic word meaning 'land of mountains', to a pure Caucasian name. Problem is, Dagestan consists of more than 30 different nationalities - some of which are Turkic. Anyways...

I found the original message about the "Hurro-Urartian as an Eastern Caucasian Language". While we're on the subject, I remember reading somewhere that the word for 'Artsax' in the Chechen (Vainakh) language is 'Arts'. That is obviously related to the Armenian name 'Artsakh', which tells me that it is an indigenous name rather than an Armenian word with Indo-European roots. Which brings me to this question: How much of Armenian vocabulary consists of indigenous Caucasian words? IfThis question is for any linguists out there...

As far as I understand these racial terms like "alpine stock" and such do not hold any water in scientific circles anymore. Chechens, Dagestanis, Kabardino-Balkars and all the other North Caucasian people are *generally* a bit lighter than Armenians, though all of us together have unmistakable similarities. We are all Caucasian mountain peoples after all. I have a Dagestani friend in Moscow who always gets mistaken for an Armenian even by Armenian cab drivers. There are certain villages in Armenia, especially the really isolated ones up in the mountains where the majority of people have light hair and eyes - the village of Tatev in Siunik comes to mind. I can't help but think that their isolation kept their genes relatively less influenced by invading armies. I see nothing wrong with having mixed blood. From asiatic-looking, to blond, to dark, we are the bearers of a unique mix of cultures. That, to me, is both mysterious and cool at the same time. It ties us into the fabric of the world and peoples that surrounded us. "By the way, guys, the Hurro-Urartian language is most closely related to East North Caucasian languages (Vainakh & Daghestani). " I don't know who posted that, but could you give me the link to that info? Interesting. By the way, everyone, I'm new here! Barevner!!