Khazar

MKR, If you disagree with something I've said, you are more than welcome to debate, that's what other people here seem to do. However, your fixation about who I am (btw, you are wrong ), tells me your posts, as entertaining as they are, are a waste of my time. Edit: This message was typed to the one that was deleted...

The Armenians' organized crime may go hand in hand with legal transactions, but to pretend that makes it legitimate is naive. (Not saying that you do) - they are still stealing cars. But I also don't think the divisions are as exact as I may have implied. I guess it's sort of obvious that when something is stolen, it needs to be sold, someone has to do that, they have to know the right people, go to the right places, the authorities are frequently involved...all in all, it's a complicated process involving different people with differing "expertise", and they are not always strictly members of the group (ethnic or otherwise). As a sidenote, I avoid making moral judgements about the whole thing, rather looking at it as what it is: A combination of social and economic factors starting with the fact that with the fall of the Soviet Union, the black-market was already well-developed - this, coupled with the lack of rule of law, corruption, low wages etc. provides the perfect environment for the development of organized crime. Oh, and of course there are enough people willing to do that sort of thing, especially when you have nationalities that traditionally stick together, in another country... Uh-oh! Vahe, maybe it was Svoy Raff? I'll try and find out. Literally thousands showed up for his funeral, and everyone was talking about it, albeit probably not because they knew him or anything, but out of curiosity. Maybe someone here who has lived in Moscow can tell us more? I lived there 3 months and therefore can't say much...

It's funny when you look at the map of the route, it makes this obvious zigzag to avoid Armenia. It's just such a glaring middle finger to Russia/Armenia/Iran. It's not the money that Azerbaijan will be receiving (whether it's going into the pockets of those in power or to the people) - it's the political value of having a major oil pipeline on your territory. When it comes time to really settle the Artsax conflict, Azerbaijan will be more than delighted to use this pipeline to its advantage. And we're not talking about just Azerbaijan, we're talking about Turkey too. They can both use this pipeline as political currency. The US will now be more likely to seek a settlement to the advantage of the countries it has invested in. Good point. And going back to what Shahumyan said about the fact that the money will obviously benefit those in power...I think that if this project was to really benefit the common people of Azerbaijan, all the calls for war and other such populist rhetoric by the Az. opposition would somehow seem irrelevant and out of place. But I'm afraid the common peoples' expectations are exceeding the benefits they will get, and that's not good for anyone. Furthermore, the marginalization and the denial of a secure economic future for a national minority like the Armenians of Javakhk, (or in a number of other cases, as was mentioned the Chinese and Xinjiang and the Uighur minority, etc.) is such a paranoid, short-sighted move. All the human potential in those regions that could benefit the state as a whole are foregone, and thus, the cycle of isolation, poverty and discontent continues.

1. Would Mher maybe go under Greek? Isn't it related to Hermes? 2. Where would Vahagn go?

Ok, ok. Point taken. But if they do...I'll be the first one back here!

I agree with everything you said, and in fact, myself always doubted the whole project's feasibility - but the reports of pipelaying already at various points along the route worried me. It is the first action after years of just talking. It will be interesting to see how authorities in Russia, Armenia and Iran respond to this, if at all. I haven't heard anything yet.

I agree that the pipeline poises a security problem wherever it is laid, but that is still bad news for Armenia as the three countries it is going through all border it. My concern is the larger west/east dichotomy. Ilhamchik is a little man any way you look at it, but now, with oil originating from his country flowing out to the west, and particularly to America, Azerbaijan is automatically put into a sort of protectorate status.

As far as I know, the Georgians and Chechens in Moscow are more into armed robbery and that sort of thing, while Armenians have cornered the vehicle thievery market. Sounds funny when you put it that way... I was in Echmiadzin in the summer of 2001, when a really well-known Armenian "thief-in-law" originally from Echmiadzin (can't remember his name) was killed in Moscow. Rumor had it that Georgians had done it, and everyone was saying how the Georgians were really going to get it. (Although one friend was positive it was OMON who did it). It was weird, ALL these Armenians had come from Moscow to Armenia for the funeral - most of them I can guarantee, had left Armenia illegally, and normally would have been stopped, but the authorities at Zvartnots apparently knew everything, and looked the other way. Don't know what happened after that, I honestly completely forgot about it until now.

That's really funny, Gregory Peck looked EXACTLY like my dad at around age 25.

http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/cau/c...2_211_2_eng.txt Interesting article above from IWPR, mentioned the fact that Georgian and Azerbaijani authorities could have had pipeline go through Akhalkalaki, but either due to the presence of Armenians or the Russian military (probably both), they had it go near Borzhomi instead. "The man who is now president of Azerbaijan has also pointed the finger at the Armenians. In February this year, Ilham Aliev, then vice president of the Azerbaijani oil company SOCAR, now president of Azerbaijan, said that 'certain forces have always sought to hamper Azerbaijan's oil projects. However, they have only resorted to extreme tactics at the very last stage, when there is no other way to hold the project back. All this is the fault of Armenia and its communities abroad, as well as certain groups that are in league with them'. " In terms of the Artsax conflict: What worries me is not the huge revenues Azerbaijan will be making and potentially building up its military, but the fact that with the oil flowing, America will be regarding Azerbaijan as its new little brother to protect.

Oh this is too funny. Well, I've never had to prove my ethnicity or nationality to anyone, so I'm not about to do that for you. On principle.

sen_Vahan, I didn't mean to portray the Russians as 'idiots' or 'bastards', but if we agree on some of the facts of the war (which we have), it is of course obvious that some of them aren't the best examples of humanity - and I can say with confidence that these are mostly concentrated to mid-ranking military men (and politicians, duh!). I digress... I also didn't know about the level of status some Chechens in Moscow have achieved. Generally in Russia, Chechens remain very poor, most of them living in refugee camps in Ingushetia. But of course, Moscow is a different story. You lived in Moscow for six years, so you would know better than I. I lived there for three months. The impression I got was that Russians refuse or are afraid to hire them, and they can only get jobs from other more established Chechens... is this not true? I'm not saying they are the poorest of the nationalities in Moscow, no way, and of course they have their so called 'zolotaya molodezh', and clubs and so on... but anyway, maybe you can correct me on this.

Shahumyan, Capitalism ain't new there, that's true! ... but this game between Russia and the west (US) is. Georgia was firmly and unquestionably Russia's sphere of influence up until a few years ago. Now it's not a given anymore... strange ain't it?

Disagreeing on points is fine, it's the point of the forum! But no need to tell me when I need to read and research... I mean that in a nice way. Oh please. When the Russian army pulled out of Chechnya in 1996, they left 50% of their weaponry behind. They left Grozny demolished, and they left the whole republic with a huge power vacuum and without any policing capability. What did they expect? The Chechens to sort everything out themselves? They knew exactly what they were doing. The chaos and corruption that ensued fueled by Russians and Chechens on the ground buying and selling arms in a 'civil-war economy', plus the invasion of Dagestan and the as-yet-to-be proved apartment bombings, finally gave the excuse the Russians needed to go back and install 'peace' and 'order'. All the wrong people were making the money, and the already weak federal system under Yeltsin was getting weaker. Tatarstan and Bashkortostan had already expressed their wishes to secede. Ignoring Chechnya could have meant the unravelling of the whole Federation. So yes, I agree with you, the issue is complex. Which Chechen diaspora are you talking about? I think there are some Chechens in Germany(?), But I don't think there is a significant Chechen population outside of Chechnya besides Moscow, where it's almost impossible for Chechens to find work. They have their mafia, of course, and they help each other out, but who doesn't in Moscow? Yow!

As far as I know, the ethnic make-up of the Khazar people was mixed: indigenous North-East Caucasians and various Turkic tribes who had made that area their home already for centuries. They weren't 'Jews' in the ethnic sense. As for, maybe a connection to the Mountain Jews (Tat speaking) of Dagestan, or the Jews of Azerbaijan, I don't know, but it would be interesting to find out. As for Azerbaijanis, I don't know about any connection they might have, besides the obvious geographical one???

Piggy, your posts are incoherent and inconsistent at best. Read the thread and at least pretend to have learned something new. We don't have to all agree. But if you don't agree with an argument, show us all why. That seems to be the accepted practice around here...

I personally wouldn't take it that far - for example, the west would never allow Russia to take Baku's oil fields - it's counting on far too much the completion of the Baku-Ceyhan pipeline. But I definitely agree that Chechen involvement would be to Azerbaijan's detriment. Since September 11, the west has largely remained silent about the Kremlin's war in Chechnya. Leaders like Bush have enlisted Putin's support in the 'war on terrorism', (whatever that means) and this has led to a growing like-mindedness between the west and Russia, for example, as you mentioned, Russia's role in the west (US and EU in particular) is becoming more important. So any Chechen activity in Azerbaijan would make Russia more than happy to have such an easy justification to meddle in Azerbaijan. And all this would be done with the west's approval. I never considered Armenia's chance of sharing a border with Russia (if were ever to take over more of Azerbaijan), but I just don't see that happening. Economically though, it would be priceless...

Sev-mard, It's just eastern Armenian! Ps, don't worry. The more I learn about Armenian grammar, the more I realize I don't know!

PiggyWiggy, Your posts are incoherent. I merely asked you for a clarification. If you're sick of us, you are more than welcome to not participate. We don't have to all agree with each other, but we are at least contributing (or trying to ) to a debate. Resorting to vulgarity delegitimizes any argument you may have had.

Arpa, this one's for you... I think I wrote this somewhere else, but my name: I was reading about the Khazar kingdom when I had to pick a name for this forum, so there you go - coincidence. My academic interests are ethno-politics of the Caucasus (North and South), and that's why I tend to share a disproportionate amount of info from this region! I plan to do my dissertation on Caucasian ethnic alliances within the Russian Federation, so I intend to include all those people I keep talking about (including Armenians). But enough about me! Now on to the Khazars! I agree with you that a lot of the information available about them seems to be anecdotal/mythological. The kingdom itself was largely known for its conversion to Judaism, but a lot of the information sources available seem to be sponsored and written almost exclusively by Jewish organizations, often badly, and with too many religious-political overtones for my taste. One thing that seems to be sure: it was a multi-ethnic, and up to the conversion, multi-religious (Christian and Muslim). I read somewhere that either during the conversion to Judaism or following the break-up of the kingdom, the Khazar Muslims moved to neighboring Muslim areas and the Khazar Christians moved south-west to the Byzantine Empire to areas populated by friendly co-religionists, the Armenians and the Greeks, and basically made themselves at home. Khazars connection to the present: I know for sure that the Kumyks of Dagestan consider themselves to be descendents of the Khazars. Need to check some reliable sources about the whole subject, I really haven't read nearly enough to get an idea...

Arpa, I'll start a thread on the Khazars in History...

Falling to the Russians? Quite the opposite!! Shevardnadze's fall was definitely influenced by some behind the scenes western (read: American) actions. On the eve of the elections, James Baker visited Tbilisi and told Shevardnadze he better make sure elections were democratic. The last time James Baker flew anywhere to do this was when he visited Milosevic right before he was thrown out. Saakashvili is MARKEDLY more pro-west than Shevardnadze could ever pretend to be. The US just scored one in the 'new great game'.

I thought '@' was the standard (or at least widely used) sign to stand for 'uh', the 8th letter in Arm. alphabet. Anyways, 'motes', 'motus'... ?

I know Armenian has contributed much vocabulary to Georgian, for example, like the word 'gizh' (crazy), is 'gizhoba' (craziness) in Georgian. I also know many of these words are not necessarily Armenian in ORIGIN, but rather passed through Armenians to others... But are there any indigenous Caucasian words that the Armenian language has absorbed? Do we know which words? By Caucasian, I mean of the various Cauc. language families, Kartvelian, Nakh etc.

If we are to say "indz mot" (using accusative "indz"), why can we shorten that to "mot@s", which is basically "im mot"? As in "mot@s pogh chka".