KnightOfArmenia

Actually, the only one of your "five simple questions" I didn't answer was whether I believe in miracles, which is really neither here nor there, since that is a question about my religious faith and observance, not my views on the current state of affairs. Since it seems so important that you capslock for it, then yes. I do believe in miracles, and I believe the survival of the Armenian nation, and our victory last decade, were examples of them. Here's a hint, Ashot - just because I'm verbose, and actually use words to express my beliefs, doesn't mean that I didn't answer your questions. You asked, I answered, and then clarified my point. Don't become so hostile just because I bring up things you'd rather not be brought to light. LTP's background is very much "on topic" - so is the similarity between the needless racism and negative treatment given to non-native Armenians 50 years ago, and the same racism and treatment given today. I mentioned the ARF because you and others seem to think this is about "those of you who support SS," which isn't accurate - I support justice and my homeland. They just happen to narrowly coincide, in this case.

I disagree massively, both with your contention that none of this is about the fact that the government has Karabaghtsis in it - which is against the evidence I presented, by the by - and with your attempt to paint the current situation in Armenia as "fear and mental slavery." As was said earlier, this is closer to propaganda a party hack would come up with.

To quote myself, with the important part highlighted, As for your questions: No, I don't think American Armenians care very much that European Armenians are from Europe. Location generally doesn't matter. In fact, likewise for most Persian Armenians - I point to the fact that our hars is Hyastantsi, and that most of my girlfriends have been Beirutsi or Halebtsi, as evidence. And by far, this isn't an issue of "all" native-born Armenians having this problem. The problem is that a PORTION of them - a very vocal portion - have a superiority complex against everyone else. You've seen examples of it on this board. You yourself, Ashot, were talking about Karabaghtsis as "them," when I pointed out to you why you were wrong about them "wanting independence from Armenia." Alpha has made fun of the way they speak - that is, that their dialect isn't Armenian. In fact, most LTP supporters constantly complain about how "Karabaghtsis are taking over Armenia" as if it isn't their Fatherland. These are the same folks - in some cases, very literally the same folks - who did everything they could to get rid of the "aghbars" and made life into living hell for those who wanted to actually return to their ancestral home. The fact that Alpha has the gall to insult Karabaghtsis on the way they talk in one post and then criticize people for not going to live in Armenia - and say that it means Armenia isn't "theirs" - astounds me. If Kocharyan had been born in Yerevan, none of this would be an issue. None. If all of his "cronies," as you call them, had been born in Gyumri and Spitak and Echmiadzin rather than Stepanakert and Shushi and whatnot, there wouldn't be a single problem. Now, granted, I'm hypothesizing here; but judging from the fact that you support LTP, despite his *extensive* history of anti-democratic and out-and-out illegal actions, and yet endlessly criticize the Armenian government's response to a riot that broke out after ten days of unsanctioned and illegal protests - something that would have gotten shut down within the hour if you had tried it in, say, Los Angeles - I have to say that I don't think my guess is far off at all. This isn't a conspiracy theory, nor is it some "RK/SS are amazing" post. I wish the ARF had won complete control of the presidency and 100% of the Parliament, if you want my opinion. We need nationalists and azgapashts running our country. But my opinion is neither here nor there, and not the point of any of this. What I'm talking about is willful blindness on your part to the sins of the candidate you supported, while simultaneously criticizing - or hell, even inventing conspiracy theories about - the existing government, without acknowledging the massive hypocrisy in that. And as a student of history, I can't help but look into the past and see that almost the same arguments were made back then. From "they're stealing away our country" to "they're taking our jobs" and "they're driving us out" to "they aren't even really Armenian" and "they can't speak Armenian" and everything else. Exactly the same charges you and other LTP supporters have repeatedly levied against the "Karabagh clan," was used decades ago to condemn your brothers and sisters because of racism. You'll forgive me, then, if I don't buy the arguments this time around, either.

I have to say, I enjoy the hell out of your posts. As I said though, luckily, the influx of Diasporan Armenian immigration is offsetting the exodus of native born Armenians to the States. So while Hollywood fills up and the Little Armenia crowds grow bigger, folks like my family become more and more common. The pseudo-racism that still exists may have spread to the Diaspora - in all honesty, I have to admit that almost every time I've seen conflicts between "kinds" of Armenians, it has been native-born Armenians calling others "parsik" or "arab" or the like - the attitude there slowly begins to change. The more change, the better.

I don't think "they" did anything. A disreputable person tapped into a semi-racist undertone among some of the populace and attempted to ride it to power, failed, and rather than concede defeat he tried to stage a colored revolution hoping for international support that didn't manifest. The situation got out of hand and the authorities did exactly what they are supposed to do - they restored and maintained order. The same would happen absolutely anywhere in the world, and I'm surprised at how liberal and lenient the government was.

I would say the problem is that many Armenians from the Republic look down on any Armenians from other places, to the extent of not acknowledging them as Armenians. For example, I point to Alpha, who repeatedly calls Kocharian's followers a "clan," referring to the supposed "Karabagh clan" that is "taking over Armenia." Or to my uncle, who moved there from Iran with his family in the early 90s, and still is called a "parsik" by Republic-born Armenians who lament that "their daughters are marrying 'parsiks' or 'iraqis' or 'americans'" without pointing out that those are Armenians. This is the same poison that killed an entire generation of Armenian immigration when the "aghbars" were brutalized by the Armenians of the Republic. This kind of idiot belief that the nation doesn't belong to us, but to "them" alone, will, fortunately, die out in time, as more and more of the infrastructure is built by - and comes under the control of Diasporan Armenians. Kirk Kirkorian is already making great inroads, as are many other individuals and businesses, and the influx of Armenians from the Diaspora is offsetting the exodus of native-born Armenians, something that I do not mind in the least. There is no Siberia to be sent to this time, and no gulag to imprison people in, so I'm not worried about something like that preventing it. Ketse Artsakh for maintaining its Armenian culture and identity despite all efforts of the otars who wanted to destroy it, and for tying our homeland closer together despite all efforts of cliquish folk who can't accept that anyone who doesn't speak with their exact accent is still "Armenian."

Feel free to, but come on. "This could only mean one thing"? That's ridiculous. And even moreso for you to assume that we don't have our own opinions and just parrot what the media says, whereas you've seen the shining light of skepticism and therefore the truth. It could also mean - and bear with me here - that there was an election in Armenia, and the lead opposition candidate, having an already extremely notorious past that his followers would like everyone to forget, attempted to stage a "colored" revolution much like in neighboring Georgia, but failed due to multiple reasons. See? Another thing it could mean - and in my opinion, FAR more plausible than to believe that the government "staged" the elections, then staged LTP's actions, staged a large 10-day protest with several thousand people, then staged a riot. I just don't see that happening, to be honest. It's right up there with, well, every other conspiracy theory that ignores evidence because the theorist has learned the wrong lessons from the book of skepticism.

Oh for... Ashot, come on. Seriously, get off of these conspiracy theories already. I swear, this is like looking back in time 60 years, when everything bad in the Republic was blamed on the "aghbars." Replace Arabian/Iranian Armenians with Karabaghtsis and you have the *SAME* deal going on right now. What's the point in following the news if you hunt for something to blame the government with?

Yes, read the Constitution. I never claimed that non-Armenians cannot become citizens, nor did I claim that all Armenians are naturally citizens of the Republic. I was pointing out that you were wrong in your statement that, not being citizens, it makes Armenia "somebody else's house" and therefore none of our business - the Constitution claims its legitimacy and foundation from the ancestors WE all share, and its mandate from the Armenian nation and people. Legally speaking, that means you're wrong in your point that it makes it "somebody else's house."

I agree with this, so long as it is "opinion" in terms of a different point of view about a topic. "You don't live in Armenia, it's not your home, why do you care who has the keys. Stop having claims on somebody else's house" is not so much an "opinion" as it is an insinuation that we have no right to an opinion on what happens in our homeland - moreso, that we should "stop having claims on somebody else's house." I'm sorry, but that is FAR more disrespectful than publicly stating that he will be ignored.

Every place has their own systems, Ashot. I don't like that US elections are invariably between two candidates, and places have many candidates run. What matters is that people accept losses FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY, and never place themselves above it. Look at Al Gore. The guy WON the popular vote, hands down, and won the electoral vote as well but was cheated out of that victory - and the White House - by an unprecedented and controversial Supreme Court ruling 5-4 for George Bush. And what did he say? For the sake of the country, in the hope that it will help bind the nation together and mend the wounds of the election, he formally accepted defeated and conceded the election. If LTP had done something along those lines, I would have actually praised him, as much as I dislike him, and perhaps even rethought my opinion of him. Instead, he did exactly as I feared - win or lose, cause massive disruption, all in his quest for power and crown.

Was meant in general. I'm justifying any police who take reasonable actions to maintain order in the face of a riot. I'd never justify lying - which one were you referring to? I wholly condemn dishonesty in any form, and condemn SS for the false actions that he did take in the elections, although I do agree that they would not have altered the election outcome and condemn LTP far more for his false actions and the subsequent seditious actions.

http://www.gov.am/enversion/legal_1/legal_sahman_all.html There. The constitution of Armenia. Notice that the preamble specifically declares that the government derives its legitimacy from the Armenian people, fulfilling the "sacred message" from its ancestors. You can admit you were wrong anytime now, it makes you a bigger man.

Not sure what was meant in this. Every nation has the right to defend itself, and internal chaos - particularly this kind, violent rioting that is purposely fomented by someone - is a threat to the people. These weren't "the people," as it was in the late 1980s, or in 1965 - these were groups of political activists who were breaking the law by not obtaining permits (and personally, I doubt that they "tried" and weren't allowed, judging from both the tone of LTP's speeches, the video evidence of his supporters advising people to arm themselves with whatever they could, and his listing of anyone who didn't agree with his victory as "a traitor"). If you try to suddenly block off downtown Los Angeles with no permit for an illegal protest, you'd be arrested within the hour, not allowed to do so for days while being repeatedly told that you were breaking the law and needed to disperse. The fact is that the government of Armenia acted LESS decisively than other countries specifically because it wanted to AVOID the possibility of violence - the results of which are international scandal. Already, news sources are calling Armenia an "unstable hotspot," and we have LTP to thank for that. Folks keep trying to say LTP is a wonderful guy, but conveniently ignore his past. I, for one, can't do that - and when I see the actions of today, and compare them to the actions of yesteryear, I see even more that he is a slimeball. You want comparisons? You want a major difference between SS and LTP? Fine, how about this - SS LET LTP ACTUALLY RUN IN THE ELECTIONS. You're being either ignorant or dishonest if you "can't remember" how, when the ARF became the major opposition part in the early 90s, LTP banned them. That's right. He banned the political party, disbanded it in Armenia on grounds of "corruption," closed its newspaper, shut down its media - the works. And what was the ARF's reaction? Did they try to sneak in their armed bands from Javakhk and Artsakh to protest and riot? Or did they protest those actions in PEACEFUL ways while not doing anything to disrupt the country, because Armenia matters more than any one person or group? You tell me. Honestly. By contrast, the government let LTP and all the opposition parties exist, much less run, and let them protest illegally for days after they lost the election. For *days*. While LTP was announcing how this "army minister" and that "general" was on his side, sending messages that the troops were with him and the government should run. Look, I get it. Some of you like the guy. I have no idea why you do, but whatever floats your boat. But *stop* ignoring every piece of evidence that doesn't agree with you, or coming up with conspiracy theories blaming Russians or Jews or Martians or whatever. The facts are clear and the lines of reasoning are bright as the sun. It's insanely frustrating when "IT HAPPENED YEARS AGO" is used as an excuse by an Armenian, as that is exactly what the Turks say as an argument of why we should drop "the Genocide issue." It's annoying to no end when facts are just ignored. I think the guy is a rat. What evidence do I have? Plenty from his first administration, which was difficult to say the least for our nation, something that every Armenian history course, everywhere, has been teaching, and which I'm absolutely amazed anyone would try to argue against. Plenty from now - his campaign of slogan of "we're going to win," his announcement before the votes were even CAST that "the government was accepting the loss and that he had won," his immediate cry of foul play before the votes were finished when first results didn't show him ahead, his illegally staged protests, his casting everyone from Charles Aznavour to the Catholicos himself as a traitor - this is all just massively damning. I'm not going to ask you how you turn a blind eye to this, but I am going to say that you shouldn't expect myself or others to let that blind eye become an argument, or to erase anything that he's done.

And you show your colors. Please, stop while you have a bit of self respect. Armenia is my home as much as it is the home of any other Armenian. If you can't argue facts, then admit defeat graciously and bow out - unlike what LTP did.

Considering the protesters were being advised to arm themselves, and that they rioted, the police were well within their rights to retain control of the situation. The government shouldn't step down simply because a power-hungry politician has his followers riot.

No, just people who actually care for their country, rather than for the aspirations of a powerhungry individual.

Agreed. We aren't a banana republic, with elections every few months because no one wants to admit they lost.

Ah, a desperate cry for attention.

Very much agreed.

What kind of pathetic crap is this? If you can't make a point based on facts and actual debate, then be quiet. Antagonistic "calling someone out" isn't worth a damn thing and isn't going to get you a bit of respect or traction with anyone. There was no "massive fraud" the way there was in 1996 - irregularities and some concerns, but nothing that would alter the outcome of the election. LTP lost and he'd rather destroy his nation than give up his dream of a crown.

I wish others did the same, actually. Applying established definitions and citing sources for those definitions is a *GOOD* thing, and I'm amazed you're trying to actually criticize anyone for that. No one is "relying" on wikipedia to "express [their] thoughts," but rather citing a source to explain something because otherwise it would just be an opinion, one that you'd likely try to argue against.

See, here's the thing. A lot of this stuff is just... not true. Did a search on every possible string of "armenia" "overseas" "voting" and nothing came up. Except the "headlines" are actually saying figures from 64-69%. So that's just not true, again. Except that the allegations of widespread fraud is from the guy who literally tried to do widespread fraud and did it so openly that his minister was physically beaten by the enraged public and he was forced to resign his presidency shortly thereafter. The '96 elections were so monumentally fraudulent that every international organization claimed the elections were false - the fact that you're trying to hang that particular albatross around anyone's neck without including it on LTP's is either ignorant or dishonest. EDIT: I'm sorry. The massively broken elections I was referring to was the '95 elections. When the ARF was banned after it became the main opposition party, international observers called the elections unfair, and despite widespread opposition and dissatisfaction, LTP's HHSh party and allied bloc somehow won 166 out of the available 190 seats of Parliament. The '96 elections were unfair too, literally JUST hitting the mark to avoid a runoff election, which was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Mm. That's the main reason I am quite happy LTP isn't and won't be president. The naked thirst for power is quite disgusting to me, honestly. I'd be okay with Raffi Hovannisian being president - his father was one of my professors at UCLA - because he's an example of someone who left a comfortable Diasporan life and went back to the fatherland. We need people who are open and driven for the homeland. LTP's supporters are mainly Diasporans who left Armenia as soon as they could and have not gone back. My brother's aner and zonkach are entirely on his side, and discount literally any media that has ever spoken ill of him. ARF is "brainwashed," BBC is "a British propaganda tool," Reuters and AP are "saying Jewish lies," etc. etc. etc. I have zero respect for a failed autocrat who sold energy to others while his people froze and tried to sell out his homeland for his personal gain.

No clue. I'm azgapasht, so it definitely made me growl. Still does.