Armat

Caucasian I see nothing wrong you being patriotic and gave you credit for wanting to spend time in an Armenia forum however practicing objectivity towards your heroes requires you to let your patriotism subside and your humanity increase or objectivity. You have probably been told many great things about Ataturk however for Armenians and Greeks and other Anatolia minorities view him as a butcher, murderer of thousands of innocent people. You probably know these horrific acts if not then simply do a five min google search and you will find plenty.

To truly feel religious one transcends dogmas regardless which kind. I prefer Enlighten Muslims, Buddhists and Christens over book pointing machines (note, read blind ignorant) after all beyond words are the true essence of God consciousness. I judge people according to their purity of character rather narrow confines of doctrines and lets also not forget that most religious teachings are allegories meant not to take literally but fused the essence from the passages. Let us not forget that lot of good kind Muslims did take care of the Genocide survivors speciously in Syria and Egypt (just a thought).

Two questions. The last question first. Why do you think "it is a good idea"? More importantly; What exactly is "History of Armenian Church"? How is that considered "religious education"? Does studying the history of science make one a scientist, or does history of art make one an artist? Once again, what exactly is the History of the Armenian Church? Is it like many of have seen listing our saints and ignoring our satans? What? We have no "satans" you say? Without knowing the content of the curriculum, I can’t comment in depth however one major advantage of religious teachings is the understanding and application of values into our lives. With the rampant corruption in Armenia introducing the church teachings in schools can mostly be positive on moral level and inspiring hope. While Arpa and most of us can dissect this on intellectual lever to make it another “intellectual party discussion” it is however must be seen from the perspective of a local population who desperately need hope for the future.

Ara B. I hope you feel better now.I guess that feeling of failure is universal and we all feel it every now and then.Cheer up my coutryman I love you anyway.

I tried to understand your post: actually read it twice and found no foundation to anything. Yes generally people do despicable things even to their relatives but that is what being human being is in addition to million other characteristics. Armenians or none Armenians does not matter. You simply generalize without merit.

This thread reminds me of the story "Gimpel the fool "by Isaac Bashevis Singer (Don’t know why) Full version below. It is a short story worth reading http://www3.telus.net/Gimpel_Family/Gimpelthefool.html

This may sound politically incorrect but my gut feeling is that democracy cannot be imposed on people whose traditions in the past never experienced it. Mere financial incentives are not enough to motivate people but rather a desperate desire for freedom but how is freedom defined in the Middle East is fundamentally different then in the west. For example in the true democracy religion and state must be separated where as in the Middle East religion takes front sit and its moral codes overbear on society in turn erodes basic human rights.

Hi everyone. Lately some repeated thoughts cross my conscious regarding Iraq, which has also wider implications. Can democracy be imposed? Or democracy involves from social political environment stem from a particular culture and society, which desire it. I may venture out and say that Iraqis are perhaps generations away from desiring true democracy as long as strict Islamic traditions get more precedence then basic fundamental desires for freedom. I believe it was a fatal error on Bush administration to assume rather arrogantly that Americans can impose democracy in Iraq. I am going back to my question -Can democracy be imposed?

Sasun one thing is certain that we know the universe to be infinite and probability of parallel universes is very probable. The article is from Scientific American and this notion is not new. Yes not certain but probability to exist such universes is real since we know only fraction of the existing universe. I hope you did visit the site and read the mathematical probabilities.

Hi guys The notion of parrall Universes is not new please read this article below. To see ths fascinating article visit here http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID...EA5809EC5880000 I guess Domino is not nuts afterall… Parallel Universes Not just a staple of science fiction, other universes are a direct implication of cosmological observations By Max Tegmark The idea of such an alter ego seems strange and implausible, but it looks as if we will just have to live with it, because it is supported by astronomical observations. The simplest and most popular cosmological model today predicts that you have a twin in a galaxy about 10 to the 1028 meters from here. This distance is so large that it is beyond astronomical, but that does not make your doppelgänger any less real. The estimate is derived from elementary probability and does not even assume speculative modern physics, merely that space is infinite (or at least sufficiently large) in size and almost uniformly filled with matter, as observations indicate. In infinite space, even the most unlikely events must take place somewhere. There are infinitely many other inhabited planets, including not just one but infinitely many that have people with the same appearance, name and memories as you, who play out every possible permutation of your life choices. Overview / Multiverses · One of the many implications of recent cosmological observations is that the concept of parallel universes is no mere metaphor. Space appears to be infinite in size. If so, then somewhere out there, everything that is possible becomes real, no matter how improbable it is. Beyond the range of our telescopes are other regions of space that are identical to ours. Those regions are a type of parallel universe. Scientists can even calculate how distant these universes are, on average. · And that is fairly solid physics. When cosmologists consider theories that are less well established, they conclude that other universes can have entirely different properties and laws of physics. The presence of those universes would explain various strange aspects of our own. It could even answer fundamental questions about the nature of time and the comprehensibility of the physical world.

Vava thanks for welcoming me. I agree my comments were a little broad. I could elaborate more on the mental health aspects of a true (meaning unrushed) grieving and opportunity to examine one’s life on another time. Joseph Campbell the Arthur of “Hero with a Thousand Faces, the four-volume The Masks of God, The Power of Myth” etc elaborates well on the meaning and the ritual significance of death. Check him out. He is great!

I could not help responding to your comment about the Funerals, which does reflect the American shallowness about things in general that matter. Death as birth is too important events in our lives to dismiss abruptly and specially in death one should and must reflect about one’s spirituality, meaning in life and the deceased person’s sum total value and his or her contribution to this earth. One can definitely say how much any particular cultures values life as how they view death in general. In America elders are endlessly humiliated in dumb ass commercials and left mostly to decay in nursing homes instead of sharing and infusing their valuable hard earned life’s lessons with their families. I still enjoy remembering my grandfather in Yerevan smoking his pipe and sharing his life with us. I missed that a lot. I miss my mother as well…I would never want to get over them as the same way I would not want my kids to get over me quickly as well.

Thanks Domino, I live in US, East Coast

Hi, I know you guys are pretty sharp, smart galls and guys. I need to ask a financial question. I got few thousand and I need to know your advice. Where and what would you suggest for a retirement fund. I am in late thirties and they (financial gurus) advice I start as early as possible. What is your take? Any help will be appreciated.

Same "arguments" no connection to anything meaningful.Armenians are people!!! and as such we are as diverse as any other races or coltures: To insist that your special brand of... you get the drift...ask for unity not more tribal small vision reality.My two cents..

GARRY KASPAROV SPEAKS OF GROWING UP IN BAKU, UNITING HUMAN SPIRIT By Jake Goshert Surrounded by his compatriots and admirers, world chess champion Garry Kasparov stressed the need for unity among good people -- a message especially important for the continued vitality of the Armenian community. "It seems like my name works like glue to bring together the people in this room, and I'm always proud to use my name to bring together good people to do good things," said Kasparov, who spoke to a crowd of 300 at New York City's St. Vartan Armenian Cathedral on Sunday, July 13, 2003. "With all our accomplishments as Armenians, there is still more to be accomplished. As long as we keep our passion and determination to go ahead, everything will happen. It is up to us to go into the world and make things happen." The event was organized by a committee of young leaders of the St. Vartan Cathedral Projects Committee, headed by cathedral dean Fr. Mardiros Chevian, to give the Armenian community a chance to get acquainted with one of its own. It was Kasparov's second visit to St. Vartan Cathedral, and his first time addressing the public. LEARNING FROM THE PAST, LOOKING AHEAD Born in Baku, Azerbaijan, to a Jewish father and Armenian mother, Kasparov -- who in 1985 at age 22 became the youngest chess champion in history -- took the Russian-version of his mother's maiden name, Kasparian, after his father died, when Kasparov was 7 years old. "Of course, as someone who carries 50 percent Jewish and 50 percent Armenian blood, I always try to carry both of those nationalities. It's simple, because they're very similar," Kasparov said. "Both were persecuted. We are both spread worldwide. It's important that we remember our roots; that we always have memories and spirits to share." By the time of the 1990 pogroms in Azerbaijan, Kasparov was already a world-renowned chess champion. But he helped save many Armenian families from the violence rocking his hometown, Baku. The violence and departure of not just Armenians but his moderate Azeri friends, has drained Baku of all significance for Kasparov. "A city is not about stones, it's about people," Kasparov told the audience, which included many Armenians who escaped from Azerbaijan, and now live in the Eastern Diocese. "Stones can be destroyed, graveyards can be moved. But a city is about people and our spirit. We lived in that place and made it spiritual. We were expelled, and now that city theoretically exists in name, but it does not really exist." "The spirit travels with us. We rebuild our lives and we can bring it anywhere," he added. "This is the greatest lesson of the Armenian and Jewish people." He has been invited back to visit his old haunts in Baku, but continues to decline the invitation. "I'd love to go back. It would be nice to go back," he said. "But only if every other Armenian born there can do it with no problem and without special favors from the government." FINDING A SPIRIT OF HEALING While relations between Armenia and their Azerbaijani neighbors remain tense, Kasparov said it is important to continue looking for a peaceful resolution. He also said he hopes for relations between Armenia and Turkey to normalize in the future. "But on the basis that the Turks recognize the fact [of the Genocide]," he said. "There's no way to move forward unless they use the word 'Genocide.'" Today, he is more hopeful the good people of the world will come together to find solutions to such problems, because of the September 11 attacks on freedom. That peril showed civilized societies that they need to stay united in the face of evil, he said. "Having this terrible experience still in our minds, you see the civilized people versus the uncivilized," Kasparov said, adding that civilized people share the same spiritual values. "We believe in life being the most valuable gift of God. And to take someone's life is the greatest crime one can imagine. The tragedy of 9/11 made people closer and now this country is taking the lead. And it gives all of the civilized people hope." For many in the audience, it was this appeal to human unity that made the evening interesting, not his comments about chess and details of how he went from a 6-year-old novice to a world chess master. "I am not a chess player, so I do not have any comments about chess. But I can talk about the message today," Archbishop Khajag Barsamian, Primate of the Eastern Diocese, said after Kasparov spoke. "He spoke about the unity of spirit and that's wonderful. It shows how wise, clever, and smart he is, because he understands that we might be different from each other, from different places, and speak different languages, but we can be united in spirit." On behalf of the Eastern Diocese, the Primate presented Kasparov with the Renaissance Medal, honoring his accomplishments and contributions to international culture. ARMENIAN PRIDE Kasparov generously stayed after speaking to answer more than an hour of questions from the audience, and signed copies of his book "Kasparov Against the World," his own day-to-day account of the most high-profile chess game in history: the 1999 match when Kasparov challenged the Microsoft Zone computer. "I grew up in Armenia and had a number of heros, including Tigran Petrosian [an Armenian who became a World Chess Grandmaster in 1953]," said Manouel Rakoubian "As a small nation, to give two world chess champions, we should be proud of ourselves. Mr. Kasparov represents our nation to the entire world and keeps us proud." There were several special guests who attended the speech and question and answer session. They included, Archbishop Yeghishe Gizerian, former Primate of England; Armen Martirosian, Armenia's ambassador to the United Nations; Vage Engibarian, vice counsel of Russia in New York; Dr. Movses Abelian, U.N. Secretary of the Committee for Program Coordination and Administrative and Budgetary Committee; and Kenneth Podziba, sports commissioner for New York City. Kasparov's public appearance came about because of Setrak Agonian, who first met Kasparov's mother in 1990 when he was working on creating an Armenian Sports Foundation. He thought bringing Kasparov to the Eastern Diocese would be good for the Armenian people to see a son who has become an international star. "Garry refuses to be just Armenian," Agonian said. "He is from all the nations in the world. He is a man of the world."

Irish Writer Slams Israel's Stand on Armenian Genocide in Jewish Paper By Harut Sassounian California Courier Publisher The Israeli government's shameless position of not recognizing the Armenian Genocide has had a devastating effect on its image abroad. Besides offending Armenians, Israel's denialist policy has had the regrettable effect of making people around the world less sympathetic towards Jewish suffering in the Holocaust. After all, if Israeli officials, for misperceived political gains from Turkey, are willing to deny another genocide, wouldn't that cause a lessening of sympathy for the Jewish victims of the Holocaust? How would Israeli officials feel if other nations emulated their cynical behavior by starting to deny the Holocaust for some ill-begotten political gain? Armenians have repeatedly expressed their indignation at the Israeli government's denial of the Armenian Genocide. Even more importantly, many righteous Jews have severely criticized the position of Israel on this issue. The Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz recently published a powerful commentary by one of its regular columnists, Thomas O'Dwyer, castigating the government of Israel for siding with Turkey on the denial of the Armenian Genocide. Contacted by phone in Israel, O'Dwyer told this writer that even though he is an Irishman, he was deeply offended by the double standard practiced by the Israeli government on the Armenian Genocide. He wanted to give the Israeli officials a piece of his mind. He did not mince his words. Here are some excerpts from his column: "If the victims of genocides cannot depend on the support of the descendants of the Holocaust - where on earth will anyone ever find truth and justice? ...How sickening ... is it to watch the disgusting machinations of the Jewish state when it comes to its cowardly refusal to speak out stridently against the deniers of the Armenian genocide. "After a newspaper item appeared ...saying that an [israeli] government brochure mentioned that a 'third generation survivor of the Armenian holocaust in 1915' would light a torch at the Independence Day ceremony, Turkish embassy hysteria went into its customary overdrive in protest. In a remarkable act of craven capitulation to denial, the Knesset and government caved in and actually printed 2,000 new brochures for the ceremony. The revisionist version of history expunged the truth and replaced it with a description of the torch-lighter Naomi Nalbandian as a 'daughter of the long-suffering Armenian people' and her grandparents as 'survivors of historical Armenia, 1915.' "The Ottoman Empire ethnically cleansed and murdered 1.5 million Armenians between 1915 and 1918. The Turkish army drove hundreds of thousands of Armenians through the Der Zor desert where they died from hunger and thirst. What is more, the government sanctioned raids by Turkish soldiers, who destroyed whole Armenian villages, not sparing even the women or the children. The Armenian population was completely wiped out in Western Armenia.... "Modern Turkey continues to vehemently deny these crimes against humanity and fights ferociously around the globe to bury the historical facts. And again this week - and not for the first time - we have witnessed the State of Israel's complicity in the lie, because it is scared of upsetting its only friend in the Muslim states. This is political expediency at its most morally bankrupt. Tripping over itself in its stupid defense of the untenable Turkish position, the Israeli Foreign Ministry has again and again played an active role in suppressing even discussion of the issue. " 'Outrageous,' is how [historian] Deborah Lipstadt ...has described the Turkish denial. 'The Turks have managed to structure this debate so that people question whether this really happened.' Now shouldn't that sound familiar to any Jewish ear? ...Lipstadt was one of 150 scholars and writers who signed a Washington Post ad condemning Turkey's persistent denial of the Armenian genocide. Among the others signing was no less a person than Prof. Yehuda Bauer, the academic director of Yad Vashem. 'We and many others have accepted the United Nations definition of genocide and there can be no argument about [the Armenian case] being genocide,' he said at the time. "During a similar row several years ago the then Armenian foreign minister said in an interview: 'There is some discrepancy between Israel's words and their deeds on genocide. Israel has to show a moral authority since we have gone through a similar history and experience.' "What is shocking is that there should be any question whatsoever of Israel denying the murder of a nation. The sooner the Turks come clean, admit the crimes of their great-grandparents, and get it over with, the better for all humanity.... "Turkey's denials of the Armenian massacre will not endure - but the memory of Israel's refusal to speak out against the denial just might. 'Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?' asked Adolf Hitler when persuading his fellow thugs that a Jewish extermination would be tolerated by the West. "Of course there is one Turk you can quote who still commands almost reverential respect from his fellow countryman - Kemal Ataturk, the legendary founder of the modern nation. In an interview published on August 1, 1926 in The Los Angeles Examiner, Ataturk talked about the former Young Turks in his country: 'These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule.' When we have the word of Ataturk himself, we don't need to be accused of 'pandering to the views of the enemies and haters of Turks' as one Turkish diplomat once wrote to me for daring to question the lie.... "The three rulers of Turkey as a triumvirate during the time of the genocide were Jemal *****, Enver ***** and Talat *****. Of them, British Viscount James Bryce said in a speech on October 6, 1915: 'The massacres are the result of a policy which, as far as can be ascertained, has been entertained for some considerable time by the gang of unscrupulous adventurers who are now in possession of the government of the Turkish Empire.' "After the German ambassador persistently brought up the Armenian question in 1918, Talat ***** said 'with a smile': 'What on earth do you want? The question is settled. There are no more Armenians.' "Later, Prince Abdul Mecid, the heir apparent to the Ottoman Throne, said during an interview: 'I refer to those awful massacres. They are the greatest stain that has ever disgraced our nation and race. They were entirely the work of Talat and Enver. I heard some days before they began that they were intended. I went to Istanbul and insisted on seeing Enver. I asked him if it was true that they intended to recommence the massacres that had been our shame and disgrace under [sultan] Abdul Hamid. The only reply I could get from him was: 'It is decided. It is the program.' "Keep on denying, folks. But remember, the dead won't let you forget." O'Dwyer's critical words are fully justified given the Israeli government's cowardly position on the Armenian Genocide. He should be highly commended for his uncompromising support for the truth. The Jewish newspaper Ha'aretz should also be commended for having the courage to publish a column that strongly condemns the Israeli government on this issue.

As my plane touched the ground at the LA airport I felt relieved since this time I had my whole family with me. So much changed in LA last time I was here and so much remained the same. The little Armenia was changed; the Rons (I may be wrong on the spelling can’t remember exactly) market on the Sunset blvd was no longer there and many familiar Armenian stores were gone but I also saw plenty of new ones. I stopped on one gift store to buy chocolate for family and my jaw dropped when the pretty Armenian girl announced $ 150.00 dollars for three boxes. I could not back out but that was way too much… My wife’s friend invited us for dinner and I bought Absolute vodka for him. His first reaction was “where did you buy the vodka?” “Tell me you did not buy it from the Armenian stores?” I said no, surprised at his questions.” why you ask” I said. His response was shocking to me. “You can’t trust those Armenians, God knows what kind vodka is in there. They got all kinds of brandy and vodka from Armenia but I can’t trust what the label says” I reflected silently and felt sad that we even can not trust our products let alone our fellow Armenians… I came later to understand that our ingenuity, creativity could also work against our interests in the hands of small “charpik” paddlers and opportunists. They with the rest of the corrupt scams can go to hell…

What is Uni? just curious. Thanks in advance

Barev sireli hyer. I heard many similar observations from different people who visited Armenia before. All true but instead of getting depressed about the situation I rather think about many individual Armenians who against the background of “feudalism” succeeded opening businesses such as wineries, textile production in Karabagh, Hotels which have western standards etc. In short there is always a fresh grass(hope) under the snow…