McCarthyiologist

Thanks stormy, yes Chicago, not Boston. See, this McCarthy* guy is just talking nonsense. He claimed that I must be using a proxy, because my IP should have traced to Boston. Same mentality, he believes in one thing dogmatically, and tries to tailor everything around it. By the way, he did not claim that he traced my IP to Boston. That was my bad in the last post. He claimed my IP should trace to Boston. I did that ? I said to you, why have you left Germany ? Was it only to study in the US ? And where have I said your IP should necessarly trace to Boston ? You see boy, you said last year that you were graduating, and that you will have more grade then just about some months. Your IP from your alias "Cekirge" traced to Germany, the same log-in(from network54.com) months later to Boston Colleage, you don't mind I tell that in open public ? This means two different things, or you left Germany to establish in the US, and study, or you were just on trip in Germany, the second one makes less sense. You said in your alias that you were to Graduate, like a Good Turk will do, go graduate in Boston colleage, and then leave for another city, most probably the ones covering the quadrilatery "Boston, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Chicago." Chicago is a nice place for a Turk to establish, there is a good Turkish community there. I told you, why are you hidding the evidences I brough you ? Why are you presenting the weakest ones ? Is that what is called selectivity ? This kind of selectivity used by your countrymen to deny the genocide ? Where have I refered to missionaries ? Why ? --------------------------------------- Now, in defense of armenians.com and any Turk can come here and dare to answer me. Armenians.com is a private site owned by an individual that pays the host, the address etc... very expensive, Turkey.com is owned by a compagny called virtualcountries, this compagny is there to make money, the publicity compagnies pay them everytime there is a hit on those sites. This is a very big distinction, Hyeforum is open as a "world" itself, Turkey.com is part of the many other sites of other countries from virtualcountries.com, all those sites are interelated with eachothers. Armenians.com as a private site dedicated to the Armenians around the world as a platforum to communicate, and others to come here and join as well, Turkey.com on the other hand, its goal is to sell its publicity and make money from it. Now, this individual hidden behind his many aliases go at Turkey.com and "expose" our "racism," I chalange anyone to go at http://www.us-israel.org/wwwboard/wwwboard.html Deny the Holocaust and post what this alias Knight has posted by reverting the word "Armenian" as "Jew" "Ottoman" as "German" And if you are not answered the same way you have been answered by some Armenians, come here and call me a liar. Many of those Armenians had their parents and their grandparents as survivors of the genocide, and anyone denying a genocide is less than a dog. --------------------------- No one stopped Knigh on expressing his freedom of speech, no one posted pornographic materials and accused him of having done so to assassinate his caracter, no Turk can have the face to go at Turkey.com and show Hyeforum as a racist one. Read, and see what the individual presently the Administrator of Turkey.com has written about Armenians, and find any post from Garo that could be compared to these. Here, those words have been said by the individual that is now assuming the responsability of Turkey.com "Trust a jew before you trust a greek, trust a snake before you trust an Armenian." "Trust a snake before a Jew, a Jew before a Greek, and never trust an Armenian." "here is the link you need to go to **** Domino !!! Next time go & do your own ***** re-search about what kind of creature you are ." "I do not trust your kind whatsoever. Whole of Turkey does trust any one of you Armenians that live abroad." "AN ARMENIAN ***** THAT DOES HAVE NO CLUE !!!" Calling the Armenians "pillocks" Among other names. "I am laughing so hard i think i may have a permanent smile on my face. Dream on you gullible pillocks , Moscow is laughing it's pants of ...yet again." Generalizing the entire Armenian population as a terrorist nation. "It is only logical for Armenians to have done what PKK Kurds are doing today." "it would not surprise me that if Armenians of ww1 were acting in the same way as PKK KURDS ." Going as far as stereotyping the Armenians to the point of believing that every terrorist should have Armenian blood. Here an example, accusing the Kurdish PKK leader as being an Armenian. "FOR YOUR INFORMATION THERE IS A RUMOUR IN TURKEY WHICH SAYS APO'S MOTHER or FATHER WAS AN ARMENIAN. I DO NOT KNOW WHETHER THIS IS TRUE OR NOT. IF IT WAS TRUE I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED AT ALL." When there is some people giving their opinion in the Russian issue, attacking the Russians and calling it. "Typical Russian BS" Always attacking people that disagree with him as typical pathological cases. "Get Well soon i was going to say , but now i think you are a lost cause & there is not even a single doctor i know thah wouldn't commit you to a hospital ward for due attention & care." "You are a shame on humanity & you breed hate & consequently disasters shall come your way. Shame it is history is repeating itself once again. Russians are loving every bit of it." "Child raping is the specialty of Europeans. Only they call it " Lolita" syndrome." "Xenophobic & Racist ***** like most of the Christians even today." "As to your granpa being a "Traitor" to his nation , i am not taking anything back, he sure was a disgrace & I am glad his seed does not live amongs us anymore." ----------------------------------- Now, I ask any Turks to find any similair things said by the Administrator of this board or the moderators, here it was few examples I kept saved, many other examples could be found, racist comments from the moderators there, no similair things could be found here, in fact, one has to go at any Israeli sites and read what they call deniers, or how the Arabs are treated, and compare it with what us Armenians have said about the Turks, its comparing an ocean with a lake. Now, shall I post what other moderators have said ? Shall I post our Muradye, the idiot following me for years ? Our Kni... oups again... Now, a little description for everyone here, to read what happened at Turkey.com, and then to tell me if any Turks at Turkey.com could have the face to criticise this board. Here it comes. I was one of the oldest member of Turkey.com/forums, when I registered I respected every rules presented to me, and when I pressed on "I agree" I did agree, one time in the past I said something racist, and I appologised just after, without anyone telling it to me. Then one individual came by the alias Circassian, a type "real" clinical cases, one reading his posts and bringing them to a psychiatrist, the words "Delusional Psychotic Personality disorder, with schizoaffective bipolar tendencies" will come as possible diagnosis. Well, this guy, the racist individual was the same that years ago registered here in armenians.com, and not respecting the rules has been kicked out(has been kicked out for something, unlike me), then one day virtualcountries has been bough, and everything changed, in fact Circassian compagny came close and had affairs with this new compagny(he himself said that at Turkey.com), and what happened ? The individual that already had a warning from Turkey.com for his racist comments became a moderator, disgusted from that, disgusted from the fact that this moron(sorry for that expression, no other word could be found) had now access to every IP address became a moderator, I PMed the Administrator and asked him, how come an individual that does not respect the rules of Virtualcountries.com, and already having recieved a warning became a moderator, I presented him few of the things he wrote, the Administrator ignored my request, I then wrote and said that I don't want to be a part of the board anymore. When I said I don't want to be part of those board anymore because Circassian became a moderator, I was banned, I was never banned because I did not respect the rules of virtualcountries, I was banned because I emailed and criticised the Administrator and said I don't want to be part of the board. Later, I changed my mind and logged another account, the Administrator seing that said that he saw I changed my idea and now I would participate. Now, again, I respected every rules, new moderators such as Da-Director, another racist, were made, and then after that, my posts just got deleted without reasons, some times the claim was that they were deleted by "accidents" other times, no reason at all, other times, it was like the thread never existed, and finaly... what happened, I was banned, no reason given, nada, I was just banned, even not a warning, even not an email, I registered again, the new registration was baned and its posts deleted, my IP blocked. Now, they claim I was not banned because of my opinions, this is the most ridiculous lie they could come with... Those happened while I had discussion with the alias Togarma, my arguments deleted, but his were still intact, and him claiming to have won the arguments, of course, when you take the arms of one and you left arms on the hand of another, the one without arm will have the shut. A lot later, I decided to take actions, and seing the intensities of a new wave of denial(each time I am gone from there, denialists just pupupps, when I appear, they disapear), and racism, I decided to take another login, this time the alias "Yolla," and present the case possibly to the ADL. I started the argumentation and exposed thos denialists, and after the 100st post I admited being Domino and said my intention to show how I was answered to the ADL. I was gone, now those people all screaming accusing Phantom of knowing that, with conspiration theories has to find a way to not be exposed for their racism, they came with an ingenious idea that even impressed me. An individual under the alias "Mother of Circassian" appeared, posting pornographic materials, who hated Circassian more then anyone else ? Domino of course, who would be the prime suspect ? Again, Domino. But, why would Domino thinking of presenting the cases to the ADL would post such things just after ? Why would he destroy his own cases ? For what ? I mean, imagine that the ADL come and see what happened, and see those pronographic materials, and DA_ screaming hard that something must be done and that the Turks were again victims from such people posting such thing... the poor innocents screaming hard and hard... why ? Because Domino would present the cases, what a good idea, you know that Circassian posts and behavoures would be presented to the ADL, just log as Moder of Circassian and post pornographic materials, and as defense say: "Look what they done, they attacked my mother, I just answered them" playing the victims. Just after that, Yolla reloged, and ? He was openly accused of being the individual having posted those pornographic pics... When Yolla(me), asked for evidences, none were given, I requested that the IP address be shown, I requested that if a Proxy was used to contact the server of the Proxy and see if my IP address was logged on. NADA ! Nothing, they ignored my requests, I asked them to appologise, no appologies given, nothing, when I started discussing with members, they started laughing telling "Oh you are the guy posting pornographic pictures" They assassinated my caracters, and no appologies give. Circassian even claimed to Phantom that the IP address were mine, but an hour later he deleted the entire thread where he said that, because on another forum I said to Phantom Circassian is lying and I requested that immidiatly the IP address to be shown. Finally, Circassian was made Administrator, and the evidences are there, while he was logged new Moderators were formed, under that account, moderators were deformed, under that account, only someone having Administratif powers would do that... and now he hide himself as a simple "moderator." Now, what happened later ? Well, the Yolla account was deleted, every posts made by Yolla were deleted, beside deleting entire threads, deleting posts, deleting new registered log-ins and all their posts, Yolla exposition and every extensive studies, from rare books dating back of the 20's, quoting how denialists manipulate those works, entirly deleted. The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights(proclamation of December 10, 1948), in its Article 19, stat: Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. My Universal rights were not respected. Ah, and what happened later ? Well, When I said that I will search for what really happened with the pornographic materials, after that moderators refused to appologise, and that this would mean that they probably know something about Circassian participation. Two moderators left their titles, DA_ left, Museum changed her alias, when I didn't gave any sign of life, they just popup out again, DA_ after unregistering became again a moderator, and Museum retook her previous login as moderator. -------------------------- This is the story of Turkey.com This kind of thing, NEVER EVER could happen here, no one could have the face to criticise hyeforum As for Muradye the 42 years old man runging after me for years... I have nothing to say, other than more quicker he decide to treat his Multiple Personality disorder the better. This guy logged a new account in Turkey.com, this Muradye months later after that account became moderator... Hate Domino, and you will authomatically become a moderator there(Turkey.com).

Oh, I forgot, in trash.com(alias turkey.com/forums), you claimed that I refered to missionaries, I did that ? Where ? Oh OK, nothing unusual, another lie... this claim that I bring "missionaries" my Bostonian friend, Togar... oups, (I didn't said anything) said as their favoured answers. BTW: What new lies you will "manufacture"(nota BENE MANUFACTURE(such a lovly word by such lovly caracters)) in trash.com. Mur, oups, cer, oups, tog, oups... well... Ah and have you ever heard of Multiple personality disorder ?

Why leaving so soon ? Why not bringing the other evidences ? Of what are you afraid of ? Please don't leave... So you have registered in April 2003, long after Fadioglu was banned, long after Fadi_at_B was banned, but poor guy, he knew who I was, and refered to Togarma... Are your Bostonian friends missing you ? Oh OK, I guess you must leave me to go moderate the other board. Ah and the next time I PM you the link of an evidences from Turkey.com, please just don't log-in under your moderator account. When will you answer my PMs ? When will you provide me what I told you ? Why leaving so soon ? Only when my PMs started to be interesting... please don't go... don't escape... stay untill the end of the show... BTW: Tell Circassian that if he continue his collection of Pornographic materials, he will beat the guy at USC the record holder. But next time he must have the face to post his pervertion as him, and not under the deguise of another member. Ah and ! ... Nothing...

With all due respect, why don't you post "all" of the proves, but "some" of them ? 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 = 1/256 This is called statistics, I refered to evidences that each ones, even if supposing that half of the Turks may have those caracteristics, you would end up on 1/256. Now, for the sake of argument, why are you hidding the rest of the evidences ? Is it what you do at best, selectivity ? So you have a new loggin ? So as I can register names such as Doguhan, Togarama, Muradyie, Cerkirge, so as I can. Now like I said, return to the PM and bring me what I asked you. Untill than, you are ignored. And don't believe I don't want to answer, I respect the rules of the forums, some ban me and some don't, but I respect the rules. Now, if you have a warning don't cry at me, even if I wanted to expose you I respected the rules.

I beet Sip, hehehe... with 75 % It can't be hehehe.... and there was things that could not apply, so I guess I beet you Azat. hehe I'm the biggest Geek out there.

Unlike you, I will be there when you will leave this forum, for you a warning or two it dosn't make any difference, but for me it does. As for evidences, I PMed you, and dared you to find any Turk that does what I showed you, you diverted, until you don't, you'll be ignored. Now stop doing like my old old friend Oz... Eri, Ozeri, Ozer or something born in 1962, having nothing to do and following me for years as an admiror would do, in fact, he was not the only friend of mine doing such, Cerkirge, Muradiye, Togarma, Wolfy were such people as well. Tell my Bostonian friends that I miss them a lot.

Thanks for the answer, I was expecting that to be the cases.

I will respect the rules of this forum, even if I would want to answer, who told you that my post to Gamavor concerned you ? yawn...

Gamavor, in your practice, beside those suffering from schizophrenia, or bipolars during their manic phases, or those suffering from muliple personaly disorder, have you come accross one that deny his past identity ?

Arpa, I have to disagree with you, Knight is not dispatched by the Mit, you said on the other thread that he knows too much to be a normal citizen. The reason why you though that is because Knight copypasted entire sentences not writen by him, without including the author, and without putting them in quotations, I refered in my answers to the sites those statments of him came from, identical textually. What does that mean is that the Moderators have the right to delete his posts, and he would not have the right to protest, because what he did was illegal, he tried to pass others work as his own writtings without having the decency to at least write the authors name, or at the very very least put them in quotations. Its says a lot about him, it indicate that he himself knows that the sources from where they originate are not credible, so he though that by taking those writtings and passing them as his, he would sound more professional and more credible. He did that with his other aliases. In order to stop me to expose him, the moderators banned me and they posted pornographic materials accusing me to be the author to assassinate my caracter, because they tried everything to silence me. Now this individual comes here and play the friendly "individual" by "my friend" etc... when he has compared the Armenian genocide with fishing. Other may say, we should ignore them, I believe on the homeopathic type of threatment, that means that every treatment given to a healthy subject that would make him sick, given to a sick in a little amount would cure him. Now lets see if he'll cry because the thread has been closed, the same that alluded that there was nothing wrong on banning me and deleting my posts.

TB, you are right, but your question is too complicated for him, he will overload. He will only claim that the Ottoman did not murdered the nation so the question is irrelevent. I had an exchange with him about a year ago, he did just the same thing, answering by posting others work. Being tired I started taking his own sources one by one and attacking him with them, than my account was just banned. This guy has not changed a yota, everything I disproved on the other board has been recycled on this one, so my long answer above was as well constituated of many of my old posts never answered. Do you want to see, with what he has compared the "myth" of the Armenian genocide with ? This is the pic in his sig, and above the quote that goes with it. The similarities between the so-called Armenian "genocide" & Fishing in Conesus Lake are quite striking! http://www.csicop.org/skeptiseum/Conesus2.JPG I spare here the view he has of the Armenians, and the racist he is, with all he said about us, he still has the face to criticise members of this board and "showing" how racist they are. The same individual that deny being the individual I said he is. And if he'll deny I will provide the undeniable evidences that it was him. So Togarma, like I said on my other post, why have you lied when you said you were not Togarma ? Just answer to that question ? Do you escape your responsability ? Are you like your countrymen refusing to take responsability of what was done bad, and trying to hide them ? Tell us all, do you still believe the things you said about us ? Shall I post them and ask you if you take responsabilities of those thing you wrote ? Or will you still deny being Togarma and bring me to provide you the undeniable evidences that both of you are the same ? --------------------- TB: I know that chronologically your question should be answered first, because you have posted it before, but excuse me, because I want mine to be answered first, I want that he answer me why he lied about him not being Togarma, I want him to answer me if his behavour of not taking responsability of what his alias has writting and denying that it was him, is similair to those of his countrymen including him, of hidding history and not taking responsability over the wrongdoing of their encestors. I want that question to be answered. And, sorry to the members of this forum to bring other boards references here, I was forced to do that to show the members of this forum, what a guy this individual is, and if after what he said, and after what he compared out tragedy, he would still have the face to accuse any Armenians to be racists or fascists.

Togarma, alias Knight, before continuing any discussion, why are you lying and telling you are not Togarma ? Answer to that question, than shall I continue. Arpa, leave him to me. He is recycling the same story he said over and over under other aliases. Now, lets ask him why he hide his other aliases, is it because they expose how a disgusting individual and ill-fated racist he is.

Knight, I hope you realise that asking evidences when I brough evidences for the point you refered, makes you unhonest ? Lets sign an agreement while I am in my good mood. You have no right to plagiate from other works, needer you have the right to copy past materials, if you want to refer to a material be honnest enough to refer to the site and the author from which it comes from, because if you don’t than continuing any discussion with you will be a waste of time(it already is a waste of time). Since you know who if Domino(I shall come to that point later), you probably already know that I have read absolutly every documents you presented here, and since they are not your properties, why reposting them ? The documents I post, an important part of them have been brough in the web by me, they are my documents, I can copy-past them as much as I want, because there is no site from which they orginated, so I ask you to do the same. Now about the Public tribunal, what do you find so funny about it being a public tribunal ? It’s unbelievable you even refer to “Hüsameddin Ertürk Bey“ do you actually know who he was ? Shall I help you to find the way ? What is presented as memoirs by “Arslan Terzioðlu“(that you quoted textualy, from the Turkish government formed Armenian studies), is not a memoir but a publication of none other than the so-called Dr. Samih Nafiz Tansu, the same “Editor” of many forgeries. In fact, Arslan Terzioðlu never ever even quoted the references himself, he just refered them, the other one I know that ever used this so-called memoir was Simsir that you quoted, Hüsameddin Ertürk Bey was a war criminal one of the head architects of the deportations, his memoirs never were published as memoirs, they were edited by the same known forger that has published other so-called documents, the same PhD member of the post-modern Turkish government propaganda machine, if I were to present any documents published by Armenias ministry of education concerning the Turks, would you accept them ? Would you ever accept said memoirs edited by an Irving, written by one of the 40s NAZI criminals charged at the Nuremberg ? You present me a professional liar, “Hüsameddin Ertürk” became rich by the expropriation of the Armenians, he was on the group of the Ittihad that was recycled by the Kemalists to stage finaly the rest of the Armenians left at the hearth of Anatolia. In court of law such documents would never have any validity, such allegations by a criminal discrediting the tribunal that was supposed to charge him, has no any value. As for the Judge, there was no one judge during the tribunal, the transcrips and reports and questionings by any judges presents there were published, there was no such thing said by the judge, you can not place any value of what a judge have said on a war criminal and a murderer that you try to defend here. Copy, copy, copy, copy, just a recycling machine you are Knight, every thing you say, one has just to do a google search and he find up nearly the words textualy, if you have an argument of your own just tell it, if you don’t just post the web site from which you would want to take your argumentations, there is no point at discussing with a copy-past machine. You refer to the two lawyers from each independent coutries, this has nothing to do with the Turkish military tribunal, it is not because you have very few things in your hand that you should bring things out of their contexts, those lawyers were suppose to be used for the Malta prisoners, they had nothing to the with the Turkish military tribunal, they refused because those countries didn’t wanted to be involved at places where their personal securities were at risks and the Ottoman authorities sounded to be to instable, between the after-war government and the sign of a revolt preparing in the Ottoman, so you bringing this up does not disprove what I have written, if your post has nothing to do with mine, whats the need to post them, I mean you can’t just bring unrelated things only to show you have some content. And furthermore, the Ottoman knew it were to be refused, they presented conditions that no one would accept. I present from Turkish sources how the documents were destroyed, how those documents were not made avelable to the British(sice you claimed they had access to everything they wanted) and then you ask which documents ? So there was no court, there was nothing, it was Monarchy, like the Nuremberg I guess, not only you select documents that have no any values from criminals, but you even deny the existance of a court, how do you expect to be even taken seriously ? And after you claim there was trials, you now claim they never reached any courts stage ? You are contradicting yourself, there could no be any trials when there is no pre-trial investigations, as for evidences, I presented my cases, beside claiming this same thing like I wrote nothing, bring the documents I presented and claim me after why the things I present happened, what the Ottoman had to fear ? Why those documents about the Armenians destroyed ? If they had no participations, why than destroying those documents ? Why not handing them to the British like it was accepted previously ? Which investigation are you talking about ? Present me any British documents presenting any investigations. Go ahead present me just one if you can. Non NADA, the Kemalists took prisonners and they forced the all and all exchanges, Curzon after everything recognised that they were released to exchange them with prisoners, he did not mentioned it happened because there was no evidences, so your claim again has no any value. On the other hand, the Turkish military tribunal lasted 2 years and they proved an extermination did happen, if this was a product of monarchy and that it was a biased court, why would than the British need such a court when they could just charge trial them themselves ? I mean, if those sentences were fakes and biased, why did the Brits not sentenced those in Malta ? Afterall they didn’t needed aby evidences, because the said court they controled already charged those “without prove.” You see, even condiering your own logic, it does not make any senses. “I neither stated that nor implied that. Read above, don't distort my arguments and abuse them.” OK, what you are telling us is that you recognise the legitimity of the allied tribunal of Nuremberg, but does not recognise the Military tribunal, because from your point of view it was a product of the Monarchy, the “allies” what make than the Nuremberg any more credible than the military tribunal ? Explain me this please. Before continuing, present me just ONE, British document refering to any Malta tribunal or trials, go ahead just ONE ! Untill you don’t present one, your claim of trials or tribunal is not valid in court. As for the documents, if you said the British had access to everything they wanted, be glad to take my references from Turkish sources and explain me why those things happened, and how after all can anyone claim that the Brits had access to the CUP documents, when your own sources claims they were taken away and burned. So Ottoman documents are open today ? But, how come, your own Turkish sources indicate they should have been destroyed, how a destroyed document can still exist ? Furthermore, where are the documents of the Turkish military tribunal, I mean if the tribunal was forged, than why still none of those “forged” documents are avelable, why would your government be afraid to present forged documents ? As for Simsir, Simsir is working at the Turkish ministry of foreign affairs, he is pied from the Turkish government, in the past I already destroyed his claims and even refered to how he took off every important pieces in his quotations by replacing them by “...” And, for the sake of argument, I do not uses Armenian sources, when your sources comes only from Turkish sources, and where they comes from the Turkish ministry of foreign affairs, would you recognise any documents published by Armenias ministry of foreign affairs ? Now lets continue, and present another of your distortions, you present the “agreement” that was refused by the Kemalists, this agreement was never respected, and as well, there was a group that the British decided to keep that escaped prison. “My friend, investigation went on for 2 years. Prosecutors, legal proffesioanals did their job. No evidence of Armenian allegations whatsoever was found, and all prisoners were released after 2 years. » Present me any documents that attest there never was any investigations, prossecutions, if you can’t than I shall know what to consoder your claim. “Whether some documents are stolen before Brits arrive are not does not change the claim. When British invaded they had acces to whatever is in the archieves, so unfrotunately (for you) "denialists" ' claim is prefectly right.” OK, I understand, I guess its the same way when the allies captured Berlin and have found no documents ordering the destruction of the Jews, from your logic there never was a Holocaust. There never was in the history of genocide where the perpetrators left any documents attesting their intentions, but on the other hand, in the cases of the Armenian genocide there is German documents that refer to how their allies planned and executed the Armenian extermination. The German "Volkswirtschaftliche Studien in der Türkey" report. Stated : "by February 1916, 1.5 million Armenians were destroyed ... the first step toward the recovery of the economic predominance in Turkey ... there was joy in the government circles that the long-desired opportunity finally presented itself...” A.A. Türkei, 134/35, A18613, pp. 1,2,3,4 "Volkswirtschaftliche Studien in der Türkey" Oh, I guess the German war Intelligentsia bureau stationed in Turkey, being Ottoman allie just build up war propaganda against the Ottoman, I guess those Turkish historians such as Dogan Avcioglu, are just pied by Armenians, when he writes. « The Liquidation of the Christian elements was determined upon in the course of deliberations which were held at the War Ministry and which lasted months. » I guess, Ismail Besikci was pied by the British propaganda bureau, when he wrote in his work. "...the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Armenians which in actuality was a genocide... it was the result of an undertaking in which German imperialism, in a collision course with Russian imperialism ...enabled the Ittihadists to solve the Armenian question by spurring Turkism and panturanism." Ismail Besikci, Kürdistan Üzerinde Emperyalist Bölüsüm Mücadelesi, vol. 1 Ankara, 1992 p.88 – 101 Those Turkish Physicians were pied by the British Propaganda Bureau I suppose. Dr. Resid " Even though I am a physician, I cannot ignore my nationhood. I came into this world a Turk. My national identification takes precedence over everything else... .Armenian traitors had found a niche for themselves in the bosom of the fatherland; they were dangerous microbes. Isn't it the duty of a doctor to destroy these microbes ? Either the Armenians would liquidate the Turks and become proprietors of this land or they would be liquidated by the Turks. I couldn't hesitate as to my opinion, and I opted. My Turkishness prevailed over my medical calling. Of course my conscience is bothering me, but I couldn't see my country disappearing. I shut my eyes and surged forth without reservation. As to historical responsability I couldn't care less what historians of other nations write about me." From an interview with Ittihad party Secretary-General Midhat Sukru (Bleda) in "Resimli Tarih" 5 July 1953 and in "Imparatorlugun Cokusu" (Istanbul: Remzi, 1979), pp.57-9, It is also said that Dr. Resid had a diary, that he recorded with great care the daily events and his refelctions. During the war he had published a booklet. "How to Deal with the Armenians"(Jhogovourtee Tzain, 25 January 1919) " A doctor named Aziz Bey told me that when he was at Merzifun in the vilayet Sivas he heard that a caravan of Armenians was being sent to execution. He went to the Kaymakam and said to him: 'You know I am a doctor and there is no difference between doctors and butchers as doctors are mostly occupied in cutting up mankind. And as the duties of a Kaymakam at this time are also like our own - cutting up human bodies - I beg you to let me see this surgical operation.' Permission was given, and the doctor went. He found four butchers, each with a long knife; the gendarmes divided the Armenians into parties of ten, and sent them up to the butchers one by one. The butcher told the Armenian to stretch out his neck; he did so, and was slaughtered like a sheep. The doctor was amazed at their steadfastness in the presence of death, not saying a word, or showing any sign of fear." Faiz El-Ghusein, Martyred Armenia, pp. 27,28 Dr. Salaheddin "...a large number of Armenians succumbed to these inhuman experiments, they hardly contributed to the health of others... .No positive results whatsoever were obtained. The unfortunate Armenians, whose existance was relegated to levels lower then animals, were victimased in the name of certain obscure points of science." Ikdam, 26 December 1918 "Sabah" Nov. 21, 1918 "Did you not drop by every morning at Talât's home to receive your atrocious orders from that brigand chief [çetebaªi]? Did you not, as a result of a decision reached at Ittihad's party headquarters, release from the central prison of Istanbul the most ferocious murderers so that they could kill with axes the innocent Armenians in the vicinity of towns and villages of which they were the inhabitants? Did you not order similar releases from prisons in the provinces? Was it not the general purpose to select the most bloodthirsty murderers and enroll them in the brigand cadres [of the Special Organization] for which end you appointed the procuror-general of the Appellate Court, whereas [the] War Minister was represented by a high ranking officer? Furthermore, was not a physician appointed also to determine whether the selected convicts would be fit to apply a degree of savagery of killing you required? Did not the formation of the brigand criminals take place in the office of the same procuror-general of the Appellate Court which was located just below your own office? Did not this organizational work continue for weeks during which one could observe the prison convicts being brought to the corridors located outside of the offices of the procuror-general, the chamber of the Criminal Court, and the Courtroom itself ? " We see here a direct link between these Criminals and Physicians. And that when Refik stat: "The criminal gangs who were released from the prisons, after a week's training at the War Ministry's training grounds, were sent off to the Caucasian front as the brigands of the Special Organization, perpetrating the worst crimes against the Armenians ... . The Ittihadists intended to destroy the Armenians, and thereby to do away with the Question of the Eastern Provinces." Refik, Iki Komite...[n.8]p.23 We can see from the other quote that the physician’s examination etc... was part of these trainings. Dr. Resid was known to be one of the head planner of the training of the criminals, as well as the usage of morphine as tool of killing against children, when he used Red Crescent hospital as killing places. Cavalry Lieutenant Fadil Harun testified during the same Trabzon trial that Dr. B. Sakir, one of the heads of the planners of the crimes against the Armenians, was acted in the poisoning of children as well as the mass drowning in the black sea. Yozgat trial: "The male and female infants were taken to barges and boats in batches [to be] drowned (bahra ilka etmekle bogdurup mahv ettikleri).” Dr. Saib(Director of Trabzons Health Services) was also implicated on the killings. Dr. Ziya Fuad the health service inspector during the Trabzon trial sitting recognised that Dr. Said: "caused the death of untold numbers of Armenian children who were injected with morphine." These information’s were provided by Drs. Ragib and Vehib, Saibs colleagues at Trabzons Red Crescent hospital. The tribunal also accused physician Ahmed Midhat of anti-Armenian speeches dedicated to inflame the Muslim population. All those evidences are product of the British propaganda bureau I guess, a kind of Armenian world conspiration. I present you to the Central commitee foduments destruction and you tell me why all those has to do with the Armenian files ? Those documents were asked by the British in order to charge those condemned for the crimes against the Armenians, not about an alian ubduction, and you still continue asking where I have proven about the British having no access to most of the documents, when the evidences are above your head, up on this thread about how the Brits requested, and they never were able to have those documents that were destroyed, I don’t think you are a child, you can go and read it against all by yourself. Some other gibberish trash you present, and then you allege that no boddy is disputing the massacres of the Armenians ? Well sorry to say you that your primary source used in your texts, Simsir the diplomat writes in his conclusion. “To sum up, there was no evidence at all to prove that such a crime as alleged "Armenian massacre" was ever committed in Turkey.” And then, you claim that you want evidences and not opinions, but Mr. Raphael Lemkin is the inventor of the word genocide. Lemkin’s first studies concerning war “crimes against humanity” was referred to by H. Yahreas’ work, The World’s Most Horrible Crime, Colliers, vol. 127, 3 March 1951. The author retraces Lemkin’s interest concerning war crimes and extermination. In fact, the author reports that the first recorded conversation that Lemkin had about the subject was at Lvov University in 1920, when he engaged in a discussion concerning the extermination of the Armenians with his Russian Law professor. Rabbi Steven L. Jacobs, Temple B’nai Shalom, Huntsville, Alabama, and Martin Methodist College, Tennessee, who has researched Raphael Lemkin’s papers, has classed some of those concerning the Armenians and compiled them by the name "Lemkin and the Armenian Genocide." Lemkin also referred to the Armenian case, in his work “Le Crime de Génocide” as an example of extermination. Quoting here from its English version: “history has provided us with other examples of the destruction of entire nations, and ethnic and religious groups. There are, for example,… and more recently, the massacre of the Armenians.” (By Raphael Lemkin, American Scholar, Volume 15, no. 2 [April 1946]). Lemkin started his works concerning “Crimes against Humanity” (we should remind the reader, that the term “crime against humanity” was first officially used to describe what happened to the Armenians) with the Armenian case. This same case, as mentioned previously, was also one of the main reasons why he decided to become a lawyer. He also gave as reference the Armenian case in his work “Genocide” whose aim was to describe what a genocide is. Lemkin was the inventor of the word, and he decided what event to call genocide. And he has chosen to call the Armenian case, genocide. No one could claim what a genocide is or not more so than the inventor, the inventor having decided to refer to the Armenian case like the Holocaust as a part of his distinct definition of the word genocide. Lemkin’s conception of the word predates the Holocaust, with the Armenian case, and then after the end of World War II, he finalized his work and published it in a series of essays. He also wrote papers, official and unofficial. In them, he referred to the Armenian case as an integral part of his definition, an “undissociable” element of the word that he himself invented. The German word often used for the word genocide, "Völkermord" has been used to describe what happened to the Armenians, even before the introduction of the more official word, “genocide.” An example of the usage of the word "Völkermord" could be found in the work of S. Zurlinden, "Der Weltkrieg, Vol. II (Zürich: Art. Institut Orell Füssli, 1918), p.649. This German word had not the legal aspect that the word genocide does. Lemkin at that time was pressed to release his studies and the legal aspect of such crimes, in order to have legal bases for the prosecution of people responsible of such crimes. For Lemkin the criminals responsible for the Armenian genocide were released, and for him the reason was because there were laws binding countries concerning killers and criminals, but there were no laws for criminals that in the name of a state and from its laws commit genocide, as he wrote, “Why is the killing of a million a lesser crime than the killing of a single individual?” And it is exactly why, in 1944, Lemkin was preparing the legal aspect, and knew that once the war was over these NAZI criminals would be released in the same way that the criminals responsible for the Armenian genocide were released if there were no new laws that could permit judgement of the criminals. It must be understood once again one of the main reasons of why the word genocide was invented. It was primarily invented in order to have a legal basis to condemn people accused of such crimes, in order that they do not escape justice like they had done in the case of the Malta prisoners, and also to name such crime that until then there was no word to describe. For Lemkin the Armenian case was the archetype, the case that was used as jurisprudence, in order to come up with legal bases to condemn NAZI criminals, and be sure that the same mistake that happened in the post-World War I period were not to happen in the post-World War II period or ever again. This is exactly why there is no possible debate concerning whatever or not what happened to the Armenians was a genocide or not, for people that allege it wasn’t a genocide not only have no knowledge of or reject the why of the usage of this word, but they also have no knowledge of or reject the fact that the Armenian case is a Jurisprudence and a distinct and indivisible element of the existence of the word, an integral part of the word, months before the introduction of this word in 1948, on the date of May 28, 1948, on which date the United Nations war crimes commission released a report concerning the mass slaughter of the Armenians in World War I, followed by, the same year, on the date of December 9, 1948, the publication of the Genocide Convention by the United Nations High Commission for Human Rights. Obviously, the United Nations report released on May 28 was part of their study that permitted them to release, months later, what would become their official definition of the word genocide. Later in 1973, a reference in one of the United States papers concerning the Armenian genocide resulted on the part of Turkey to pressure the United Nations to withdraw the case of the Armenian genocide from the list. Due to the intensification of these pressures, the case of the Armenian genocide was redrawn in 1978, until another extensive study was to be conducted, due to Turkey’s accusations of partiality. After eight years of extensive research was undertaken, one of the specialists that conducted this meticulous research, Benjamin Withaker, released the conclusion, which was, that the Armenian case was undeniably a case of genocide. The result was intense pressures from Turkey, forcing the United Nations to ignore the conclusion of the specialists and stop the passage of this recognition, but despite Turkish pressures, the Subcomission of Human Rights, led by the expert Carey, adopted the resolution by passing it to a vote, from which only one member was against, the only vote against the resolution being from the representatives of the Soviet Union. But these important details have been ignored by deniers, such deniers like the Holocaust “negationist” Paul Rassinier, Flaurisson and the Irving’s of this world, thinking that they are in a better position than Raphael Lemkin to tell what a genocide is or not. For each genocide there is its denier, and the Armenian case of course is not an exception, but contrary to other forms of denial, the Armenian genocide denial is financed by a government. This genocide has its own deniers. In this work we will limit ourselves to the basic study of one of them, Justin McCarthy, who is the most widely cited Western denialist of the Armenian genocide and who, like many other denialists, is arrogant enough to think he knows that he is in a better position than the inventor of the word “genocide” to dispute what is a genocide and what is not. So, Lemkin is not telling an opinion, he is the inventor of the word, and he put the Armenian cases as a part of his definition. “Mr. MacCartoon” SO starting with personal attacks ? Signe of disparation ? Another interesting poitn here. “1- If Armenians really believe in their case, why the hell did they resort to FORGERIES, LIES, and MISQUOTATIONS (in order to play on Jewish holocasut sentiments, man these Armenians are really very smart.) ? Refer to R1, R2, R3.” I never used the Andonians to prove anything, neither Hitler quote. On the other hand, the one here resorting to forgeries and lies was you, you were the one inventing a tribunal that never existed, or claimed Armenians were not taxed etc... etc... etc... But lets still refer to the Adonians, that your ilks claim to be forgeries, when using the same standards will prove many Turkish documents as forgeries. First, before developping about the Andonians, I shall present your “sources” for the three point you made, you just copy-pasted it from here. http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/arm2_fcta.html writting by an idiot by the name of Demir Delen. You again have not respected copyrights(I remember someone like that, but lets stick to the facts right now, and bring the other subject later). Andonians There is only one work that is the bases of the denialists arguments that has been later translated into English and it is the work of Orel and Yuca "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin Icyuzu" Ankara, 1983 Dadrian has proved this work is worthless by covering the 5 allegations that these two diplomats brings to prove that the Andonians are forgeries... And do you know what proves that the Andonians could be authentics ? Specifically its mistakes found in other Ottoman documents. First allegation is the fact that the papers used of these documents looked like the ones used for calligraphy lessons in French schools... and do you know how they came to the conclusion ? The orginal have not been studied by these two diplomats they came to that conclusion basing themselves on the spacing of the lignes standarts in the French system. Here is the point, this proves that the Andonians could in fact be authentics, because none other then Turkish high officials would know that Talaat during wartime was using ordinary paper because of the paper crises in Ottoman, exporting papers from Germany, that was using French lign specing system... and Talaat specifically used such papers. Ahmed Resit [Rey] in his work "Gorduklerim-Yaptiklarim", (1890-1922), Istanbul, 1945, p.117 explain that Talaat used such specific papers. How Andonian could know this ? The second argument by the two diplomats are not proof itself, because they are used in a way, that they do not reject the authenticity of the Andonians... These diplomats question the fact that Naim has kept these documents, and it was not possible that telegrams were kept for more then 3 years before destroying them. But again, here the two diplomats show the ignorance of Ottoman documents classifications... yes it was true that in Istanbul for example orders to destroy the documents have been given and later in the entire Ottoman itself, and I gave you in one of my above post examples of such orders, but it was not really the case for Allepo for that time, and Aleppo was one of the only places for that period, that the Documents were not classed to be protected, and here again Andonian could not have known this, the German Consul Walter Rossler, that believe that these documents could be authentic recognise that "entirely granted for as far as I knew the Turks [in Aleppo]never catalogued and attached (nie geheftet) their documents." The Daily Telegraph reported: "on the lightening advance of Allenby's forces...time was lacking for so complete an obliteration of the tragic archives while subordinates, who remained behind, sometimes retained possession of compromising documents..." The period that Andonians say having taken these documents makes a lots of sens, as well as the fact that he took them from somehwere that it was specifically one of the only places that documents important such as this could not have been destroyed. Then our 2 Turkish diplomat palls alleges by refering to the February 18 and March 25 letters, that the errors made in them could not have been made by a Turk, but again, they are wrong. These are orders letters, handwrittings, they are not publications to be read by a mass, our 2 dimplomats mesures for example the letter b etc... to show us that it could only have been made by someone that could not master the Ottoman script, but what they do not point out, is that a hand writting to give an order is not a paper to be corrected, or a litherary work for mass consuption. Ahmed Mithad the well known Turkish language specialist as well as writer recognised the irregularities of the Turkish language "The Ottoman language is such a rotten structure that which-ever part is touched, falls down... We have to give up making repairs." The Martial Court itself had to rewrite an entire sentence from an official Ottoman document because "very ineptly used Turkish." A Turkish Interior Minister also denounced as "bad" (bozuk) the Turkish language of a 1912 Young Turk Congress. A Turkish Historian also recognise that Talaat Turkish writing was "bad" Turkish, refering to his telegrams, pointed out in "Izahli Osmanli TarihiKronolojisi", Istanbul. 1961, I.H. Danismend Could Andonians have known that Talaah had bad Turkish ? So again, like I said the mistakes found in the Andonians only prove its authenticity. The datation now, Dadrian give examples of the same kind of mistakes in Ottoman documents recognised as authentic by Turkey. To finish, Andonian was a Journalist writer, mastering Armenian as well as Ottoman Turkish, his Ottoman Turkish, living in that time, was certainly better then Orel and his friend pseudo Ottoman Turkish knoweldge... if he would have wanted to forge documents, these little mistakes easy to correct would have not been done... like using different papers for many of the telegrams(this was a known Talat mistake), datation mistakes, someone that would want to forge documents, would not for example forge some documents have the correct datation and not for others, in order to have correct datation, one should know Higir Calender, if he would know it, why making mistakes for some datations and not others ? When you forge, you try to be the most credible possible, and when you have a knowledge of Ottoman Turkish and as Journalist the Hegir datation, and the capability to use the same kind of paper for all the documents, then why making everything possible in order that you left arguments for the opposition party ? Is that make any sens ? As well mistakes of the Hegir Calender in various Turkish documents are abound, Dadrian refered to few in his work, from the same logic applied to prove the Andonians as forgeries, Orel should conclude that documents admitted as authentic by Turkey are in fact forgeries. Now, here about Hitler quote. First, the document has been provided by Lochner, direcly came from General Canaris, the Head of Hitler military Intelligencia. Another copy of it from German High Command, another one from Admiral Böhm, another copy found in General Halder memo's, another copy of it from Army's war diary compiled by H. Greiner. The file of Lochner was direcly from Admiral Canaris, the Chief of Counterintelligence, took during the conference on August 22. Similair quotation by Hitler was recorded by a confidencial Interview in 1931, of his new world order and the theory of living space. The interview quote as this, at the end as reference of his plan. "Erinnern Sie sich doch an die Austrottung Armeniens." Translation. "And emember the extermination of the Armenians." From the german daily Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten., compealed and translated in the Calic, Unmasked n.8-, 81, and from the Leipziger compilation original version p. 101 He refer to the extermination of the Armenians, and telling to remember it as an achievable thing. And don’ forget Dr. Max Erwin von Scheubner Richter, one of Hitler closest friend, that founded with him the nationalist party leading to the NAZI, and with the SS, bases based on Richter note on Ottoman special organisation. Richter was the vice consul in Erzeroun calling the Armenians the "Jews of Orients" and also it was him that noted the Armenians and placed them as "degerate race" non-aryan. The allegations of the Telegram being a forgery is based on Ataov so-called study at the Turkish foreign ministry affairs, in the same type as Ataov work about the extermination of jews and Muslims by Armenians, and a supposed Armeno-NAZI collaboration. Nothing was surprising with Hitlers quote, considering that many NAZI publications the Armenians were viewed as in the same branch as Jews. "Armenians were even worse then the Jews." The Myth of the Master Race, Alfred Rosenberg and the NAZI ideology, by Robert Cecil /n.32 / p.30 And calling the Armenians. "Armenian Jews" From the NAZI critic work .Das Schwarze Korps, November 1936 As for the photographs of human skulls, in never have read any Armenian works refering to them, people like you need to pump the air again and again... I’m not interested. Now comming to Turkey.com, so Togarama threw my lies ? How ? My posts were deleted by the moderators, my accounts banned, the entire Yolla alias posts have been totally deleted. If your side have the truth, why needing to bane and delete ? When the individual in question was one of the only one having respected the rules of virtualcountries, and the worst racists were made moderators ? Armenians.com is a personal web-site financed by an Individual, MosJan, the forum and the technical stuff maintained by Garo the Administrator, Virtualcountries.com is a compagny making money from its sites, what happened to me in Virtualcountries could never happen in this personal web-site. Never will any moderators in this site post pornographic materials and accuse a Turkish member to assassinate his caracter, never any moderator will lie claiming that the IP adresses matches with this Turkish caracters, when it is impossible. In Armenians.com you will never find the moderators attacking a member the way I have been attacked in Turkey.com, I have every right to take legal actions against Virtualcountries for everything they did to me, for my caracter assassination in face of every other members accusing me of posting pornographic, and viewing me as a pronograph, the most down the belt machinations to assassinate my cracter, because there was nothing left in their hands to kick me out from there. And I very well know whom are implicated, and why DA_Director unregistered with Museum when they heard that I was considering taking legal actions, and when they just pup-up again when I gave no news, and why Circassian the sick schizophrenic caracter, being presently the administrator was playing with the board by trying to hide he was still a moderator. I am preparing a surprise for them, don’t worry, yes ! I am the same Domino, that alone crushed all of YOUR lies, the same that got his post deleted, by claims it was an “accident” others just poof gone, like if they were never posted, and you have the face to claim you exposed my lies ? I know you are Toagarama, I know it like the sky is blue. I know it because of the way you write, the same way by copy-pasting without even being honnest enough to include the name og tha author, and how you made a mistake on your last post addressed to me in a place and talked with the impersonal way like you did in Turkey.com “Togarama say this” “Togarama say that” Do you want me to post your racist remarks about the Armenians for everyone to see ? You know, have you wondered how I knew you were from Turkey.com ? I knew it only by the way you wrote, I knew exactly who you were by your first post, After this experience for all those years, I smeel those things. You now claim here that you are alone... I was alone as well in Turkey.com, they had to be a binches answering at the same time, but still I never used me being alone as an argument, and still that was not enough, they had to delete my posts, ban me, and delete the entire argumentation by Yolla. Deny being Togarama, and I shall show you what evidences are, I shall present how you write, and what kind of “Impersonal” answer you make that were proper to Togarama. What all of you are afraid off ? Why do you all need to hide behind aliases denying to be the previous ones ? Everytime ones lies was smashed, Poof just disapear, and later a new aliases pupit-up, I have been always constent, and always took the responsability of what my other aliases have written, because all of those are the same person. On the other hand, you need to hide your past mistakes, this say a lot about you, the same mentality as the Turkish society denying the Armenian genocide. Now be a respectable man, beside copy-pasting references, make your argument or shut up, whats the need to recopying others work ? When you already know I have read them and discredited them bunch of times. Have a nice day, and tell to your buddys Turkey.com, I have not forgotten them.

http://www.mcdonalds.com/corporate/careers...univ/index.html LOL, that's a good one. I imagine a conversation between two people. "Hey Yo, I study at Harvard University and compleating a PhD in neurobiology, and you ?" "Well, I study at Hamburger University, and I am compleating a PhD in Hamburgerology, I am just finishing my theses on my theory on the radius of an humberger and its relation with heat dissipation."

Sasun, once in a while the predator as I am need his pray, and by chance the pray has been Knight, its only a question of me being hungry and having found a pray. Will you let me starve ? Well, seriously, the guy come in an Armenian board because he thinks he will show us the light, then I say, welcome, stay here untill the show is over.

You don't have any idea, because it is the "reloaded" version, not a new version. I made allusion of what I said on a new thread and science and technology, you should go and read that before comming here and reading this fartation of mine.

Ararat = Ar(ara)t = ara(Art) (ara(Art) / (ara)) = Art. There is Art times "Ara" in Ararat. As I see it multiplying Art Ara times, you'll obtain Ararat, or multiplying Ara Arts times, you still obtain Ararat. And if you wonder on what I am, on nothing, heat and humidity is killing me, so I don't know what I am saying, probably in the next days when I will have all my mind(wonder if that is possible), I will realise how much of an idiot I was by starting that thread.

Sasun, I am now believe in the non-soul, the Buddhist conception of the non-soul. If identity is a property of everything that exist, the "soul" is not needed anymore in order to explain a possible life after death. If I make an exact copy of you, an identical copy, I will be forced to destroy you, in order that this copy be possible, once I do that, you would not see the difference, you will still exist, and knowing you exist. So I leave to the billions of Universe forming to find an exact copy of me that would live longer than me, in order that after my death I exist. So you see, no soul needed, considering that identity is intrinsect to matter. So everything is discuntinued, conscience is the phenomenology by which this discontinuation is linked together to form a continuation. As for works, I will order Fred Alan Wolf works, it seems that he as well believe the non-soul as "soul" very interesting concept... matter, and everything in our universe have already their identity, the Universe has chosen the way to survive without needing a "soul" for some of its constituants(us). We can survive without soul, and that even after death, the problem is that we may just not know we survived. What would that be different than death ? I have no idea.

Joseph, Why bother answering me ?

Mahmut Esat Ozan Chairman-Editorial Board The Turkish Forum THE CAUSES FOR THE ARMENIANS' DEEP GLOOM According to all historians the beginning of Modern Age coincides with the Conquest of 'Constantinople'(Istanbul) by the Ottoman Turks. They are also chronicled to have caused the Renaissance in Europe. However, there is a new renaissance in the making on that continent. This time it is caused again by the Turks, no less. Most everyone in Europe agrees with this new development and are tacitly happy about it. Except one group. The Armenians. So the fact that the beginning of the Modern Age coincides with the Conquest of Constantinople, makes the Turks reponsable of it ? And who "chronicled" that the Turks caused Renaissance in European, its the first time I hear such a thing. Most everyone in Europe agree ? Whom ? Which continent new renaissance caused by the Turks ? And is it not pass time that the Turks have their Renaissance, while the rest of the world are in post modern era ? The Diaspora Armenians, especially the ones in Europe and particularly those who call France their home, are very much upset because they cannot stand the humiliation of witnessing the many successes of the Turks. Seeing that not a single Armenian has been awarded any prize, on any subject at any time in recent or distant memory, they are trying to compensate their anger by attacking the Turks employing the most repugnant words they could use. On the other hand, the Turks quietly ignore their arrogant and highly boisterous neighbors, the Armenians. We are upset ? Of what ? What do I care that the Turks win a prize or not ? Do you think that I am as much interested in Turkish achievements that you sound interested in Armenian ones ? "Seeing that not a single Armenian has been awarded any prize, on any subject at any time in recent or distant memory, they are trying to compensate their anger by attacking the Turks employing the most repugnant words they could use." When was the last time that a Turk became the world Chess champion, when was the last time that a Turk was the master Engeneer of one of the best Combat fighting airplane series ? Which Turk is a world known classical composer ? So no Armenians have ever won any prize ? Self-decieving old fart, you are as credible as the "organisation" that published your article and that you are associated with. The fact that Turks are being awarded prestigious titles in a variety of fields such as: culture, popular arts, movies, music, sports and even in literature does not go too well with them and it drives them batty. Being boastful about their personal achievements has never been a part of Turkish character. However, hearing and reading with disgust, about hundreds and hundreds of Armenian internet sites all over Europe and mostly in France, spewing pure hatred toward the Turks who have been promoted in the European news Media, it behooves us to brag a bit, just to spite these double-dealing, Janus-faced hypocrites. "Being boastful about their personal achievements has never been a part of Turkish character." LOL ! Is your article not about that ? Being "boastful" of Turkish achievements ? Is that the the Turkish caracter you are talking about ? From hundreds and hundreds of internet sites ? Which site put as their internet adresses "armenianterror" etc... and this comming from Turkish organisations, find any Armenian web-site from any Armenian associations or organisations, with adresses such as "Turkishterror" "Turkishreality" I am afraid that facts are speeking against your claims. ARMENIANS ARE LEARNING THEY'RE NO MATCH FOR THE TURKS Whats a racist statment, I guess another example of what you consider as the Turkish "caracter" It all started with the World Cup football (soccer) championship which awarded the Turkish National football team a most prestigious third place in the International arena. Now even the German First League football clubs are paying big bucks to the Turkish athletes such as Yildiray and others who excelled during the World Cup games. Other coveted prizes won by the Turks put them again in a most favorable position. Turkish young lady, a long distance runner, Ayhan won the first prize and a gold medal among a large group of competitors. This incredible event was followed by two other European championships snatched by Turkish athletes. One was in boxing and the other in the Far Eastern sport of Korean Tae- Kwon-Do. There is more than 65 million Turks, and I am not including those outside of Turkey, in the entire world there is 7.5 million Armenians, present Armenias population declined to about 2 million, so only by numbers, it would take for each Armenian medalist 33 Turks, in order to be statistically equivalent. Can you claim such ? It took Turkey so many years to have few medalists, and still, if you consider the population of Turkey, that is equivalent to UK, Turkey fall far away those other countries... Is that what you consider as a renaissance ? Perhaps, are you talking about the Turkish renaissance finally arriving, while the rest of the European countries live in Post-modernum ? Not too long after these impressive victories, came the news that the Turkish wrestler Serefoglu had won his 6th European championship title. Again the Armenians were furious that they had not produced a single person among the half a million of their populace in France alone. They were left only with a balding, aging singer by the name of Charles Aznavour, who no longer commanded his once-popular voice and also lost all his lifelong savings in an imprudent investment in the risky business of filmmaking. The turcophobic adventures of the Canadian-Armenian 'film director' Atom Egoyan's money-loser called "ARARAT" became a big flop. Its racist and jingoistic plot replete with savagery and pure hatred for the Turks was ignored by all but a handful of filmgoers everywhere. The film t was taken off the market because it was playing to almost empty theaters in France, in the USA and everywhere else. To the big disappointment of the Armenians, and to the chagrin of all the operators of the filthy, shameless Armenian Internet sites this so-called film "ARARAT" was not even allowed to compete at the 2002 Cannes Film Festival. Egoyan, Aznavour and the large U.S. distributor, Miramax, a subsidiary of the mighty Disney Corporation, will have to figure out some way in which they could recoup their enormous losses. Is it in this so "pure" Turkish caracter to lie like you just have lied above, lets ignore your assassination of the caracter of Aznavour. Lets stick to the facts, and your lies(as usual, afterall what is found as truthful in turkishforum, is just a question of a margin of error). First of all liar, Aznavour didn't lost his life savings, even idiots would know that it is the production compagny that pays the production of a film, it has been financed by Serendipity Point Films, Egofilm and Film Canada. "Its racist and jingoistic plot replete with savagery and pure hatred for the Turks was ignored by all but a handful of filmgoers everywhere." I guess this is why one of the worst critics about the film was that the film should have been what was the film waiting the film, what you consider as "savagery and pure hatred for the Turks." And still not bad at all, for a such a flop to win the best Picture produced in Canada in 2002, being the movie having won the most prizes. "this so-called film "ARARAT" was not even allowed to compete at the 2002 Cannes Film Festival. " You should be worry for your Anus, such big farts could be dangerious for your health, the film was supposed to compete, it was redrawed from the competition list by Egoyan himself, not because it was not allowed. As for why the theatres were empty, it was because they wanted to see a movie like the one waiting the movie, so in "somme" the savagery and "pure hatered." Right after this disaster, the Armenians learned to their distress and dismay, that a Turkish-made film called "DISTANT" was awarded the coveted Palme d'Or Prize at Cannes Film Festival in 2003. This was too much for the Armenians to bear! It was enough to make them lose their mind. They began to ask all kinds of questions to which there was no satisfactory answer. "What was going on in this crazy world ?" "What,in the name of heavens,had occurred to rationality ?" Better yet, "why was all this happening to them?" " How could these 'lowly' creatures, the Turks, against whom they were working day and night to keep them out of the European Union, were becoming so popular recently?" "Haven't they been sending negative 'desinformatsiya" against these Turks to all legislatures of the European Union countries ?" "Haven't they sent a substantial amount of hostile material to besmirch the good name of the Turks?" "How could these people excel this way in all these popular events and receive those world-class awards?" "So what had gone wrong?" SHow me which Armenian asked those questions you refer above, Mr. Fartation, go ahead. Returning to what else makes the Armenians so unhappy we also find that recently their claims were reputedly denied in Switzerland, Sweden and of all places in England.. While in the USA, the all-powerful Armenian lobby is busy to try to pass a likewise resolution,the Armenians everywhere were slapped in the face with other Turkish successes. In France, Germany, Holland,Switzerland and Austria respectively,Turkish heritage candidates were winning seats in various municipal and/or governmental races.Especially the Armenians had lost in a controversial law suit they had brought against the Turks concerning the denial of the alleged genocide. This was a reversal verdict by the Swiss Supreme Court in Bern.. No essance here, errors, misplacements, and fartations, I don't think I have to answer that, since I have answered those lies many times before. ISN'T THIS A TURKISH RENAISSANCE? Its about time for the Turks to have their renaissance. The world-renown Turkish novelist Orhan Pamuk winning the literary award from the Impact-Dublin 2003 in Ireland for his new book "My Name Is Red "didn't go any better with the Armenians, either. But when a most beautiful Turkish young lady, Azra Akin became 'Miss World Armenians' own world came tumbling down. And collapsed unceremoniously over their heads. Because, no Armenian is known to have won any beauty contest anywhere in history. They must have hoped that this would be the end, of all the successes the Turks were going to have in the future. But once more they were rudely awakened by another blow on the noggin. There was another Turkish victory! Turks had won again. This time it was the most fancied and desired prize of all. The Eurovision Song Contest.The young Turkish singer , Sertap Erener 's victory was hers alone to keep. She had won it after a fiercely-fought competitive bout with Belgian and Russian contestants getting the remaining prizes. WOW ! Its so much of a jow, to have Miss world, considering that they have won something, Mr. Fart, how could any Armenians win any Miss world titles before, when Armenia is a newly formed republic, during a period that there was no Armenia to represent for the Miss world title. Hey Mr. Fart, name me any country, in my knowledge there never was any country of 2 million people having any Miss World. As for the rest, I don't masturbate on our success, those that masturbate on theirs, are those that have a complex of inferiority, like you. In the mean time, I am reading right now the studies of the Colleague of Lende one of the worlds greatest physicist, Lende is working with his colleague, to come up with a unification principle in the inflationist Universe theory. And guess what, he's colleague is Armenian. And guess what. I don,t care about it, and I don't use that as a trophy, I just read and admire, what is great, what is beautifull, what is masterpiece, or whatever else, be it from a Turk or an alien. Erener who gave a migraine headache to the Armenian Site owner-operators is one of Turkiye's most popular young singers, with album sales topping the figure of four million. After the biggest indoor concert in Latvia's history, one Riga newspaper called her the "Turkish Rose with a crystal voice." Even the Greek Cypriots and mainland Greeks gave their votes to this talented Turkish singer. What was the reaction of the French Armenians viewing the contest? They were foaming at the mouth, or enraged in one word. They turned their wrathful fury against anything or anyone with a Turkish background . WOW ! 4 million Albums sold, in a population of 65 million people. Whats next ? Their discordant anti-Turkish voices began to be heard everywhere.One Armenian said with great assurance:"Those bastard Turks bought all the contest judges." Another one added: Hey! Listen ! you jerks! Your Turkish race knows only one thing "to colonize the world,and 'screw' everyone in the process! There were many other deprecatory voices, letters but unfortunately we cannot print them here or anywhere else, for that matter.Those masterpieces of literature should remain where they belong in the bosom of their pseudo-clever writers and readers, perhaps this is how they get their "jollies.". I will keep your last sentences, i'lld take note of that, and put your masterpiece where it should be, printed it and use it as toilet paper. Their ugly epithets remind us of their equally guttural language. By that we mean that it is really a blessing that no Armenian did enter, nor win the Eurovision contest, because had they done so and won the prize the mythical winner would have been called the "Armenian Vart". That's how you say rose in Armenian mother tongue. Oh , well! As Shakespeare would have said in the days of yore: "A vart by any other name is still a vart.!" Here from my equally guttural language I shall conclude. Sireli askit Kak@ Ger.

I though of something interesting, supposes that Quantum Mechanic is really the heart of what we consider as our Universe, and supposing that everything could be explained by Quantum Mechanic, the notion of soul become a reductionist vision of life and conscience. Philosophy in itself exist as a human invention, because Quantum mechanic does not only apply to the foundamental aspect of physic, but as well human thinking, the incertitude principle is what gave birth to philosophy. What came first the chicken or the Egg ? This is an easy analogy, but you can consider Chicken, more you limit your view to the chicken and ignore the Egg, you can't concieve the existance of the Egg, if you do the same for the Egg, you can't for the chicken, exactlly the same thing as the speed and position, more you concentrate on the speed, you will lose precision on the position, more you concentrate on the position, you lose precision of the speed. Every notion are governed by two interelated things, in philosophy, it is called the "theses" and "anti-theses" If it is not possible to bring an anti-theses for a theses, it is not philosophy anymore. Quantum Mechanic is about statistics and impressision more than anything else, it as as well about every probability existing as antities. If we consider that, than we would not have any difficulties to admit that every possibilities already exist before making any choices, and that the past possibilities are still existing whatever what the theory of relativity says. This would imply that time is a phenomenology of conscience, because, since those possibilities all exist, the order they take is only a consequence of conscience itself. I see that as Macromedia Flash, you save everything as Symbols in the library, every ellements are saved once, they are all there, than you work with what you have in the library, on the animation, on each frames you chose how you will modify the symbols, than when you press on play, the movie is played, what time is in fact, it the mathematical fonctions applied to the symbol that alone exist as an unmodified entity... all the possibilities of modifications are only mathematical fonctions applied to something. This pressuposes that the mathematical fonction could be different in other Universe, but they have to uses the same "symbol," now imagine that this symbol is "0" from mathematical fonctions you can modify it and come with it with something, each Universe using this same symbol to come up with whatever possible paterns. What write thoses commands is just the fact that we exist, or that "life" exist, life is a part of the Universe, and the observer is an important part of any universe, without an observer, the universe in question become only a possibility, and not an existing "observable" universe. The reductionist vision of men therfore become the non-reductionist vision of men, and the "soul" conception become the reductionist one. It sound contradictory, but if we extend MQ on everything, and that we accept the inflationist theory, then, we are forced to conclude that death can not exist, because in order to have any death, one has to have a birth, if birth never existed, death could not exist. Its easy to demonstrate why. Supposes that birth does not exist, and that death is the value "0" if it does not exist, than the time range will be from minus Infinit to "0" The total time would be 0 - - Infinit = Infinit, so if Birth don't exist, so as death could not exist. Now, the reason why Birth does not exist, is because if the inflationist theory is right, there is billions billions, billions and billions, in fact INFINIT, number of Universe that were created from Quantum Bubbles, and that when that starved is irrelevant, because it has no starting point, the age of when it started is infinit, and it will always happen for infinity, this is what is the conclusion of the Inflationist theory, this conception of the Universe is now accepted by the majority of astrophysicians. So, now, whats the chance that an exact copy of our Universe has ever existed before, and that will exist ? The chances are 1 of a billions, billions of billions,, in fact one on a number containing billions of zeros. This sound a very big number, in fact, we know that any statistics containing 50 zeros in considered as "impossible." This is true when we do not include the "Infinit" Universe notion. But imagine that Universes have always been created, the number of Universes that have been created by inflation in INFINIT, what does that mean ? It means that the statistic that there is chances that a copy of our Universe has ever been created and will be created is of 100 % Because since Universes will always be created and that Universes have always existed, even if the chances that an exact copy exist is very low, this is largely compensated by the fact that the number of Universes created is "Infinit." That would mean, that the chances that I existed in another Universe is of 100 %, so was I ever born ? Nope ! Because this goes far back and back, in fact not back in time, but back on the sequence of possibilities. Something interesting has been discovered by the experiment of teleportation of particules. It is that in orther to teleport a particule, with its copy, the particule itself should be destroyed in order that its copy be able to exist. What does that mean ? It means that every particules have their identities, identity is a property of the mathematical fonction modifying the "0." Every particules have their own states, not two can have this same identity. If we extrapolate this to conscience, if I were to replicate an exact copy of me, it could not exist, because the particules forming the atoms, forming the molecules forming the neuron cells could not exist. In the process of copying, the orginal should be destroyed. This mean that in any other Universe at present time, I can not exist, imagine that someone kill me, the Universes that will be created in future, one for sure will have a version where I am not killed, the question is, would I be conscient on that Universe, without even knowing having been killed ? This sound science fiction, but its interesting, because if identity is a direct phenomenology of this "fonction"(Quantum mechanic being the consequences of this fonction), than my identity is my brain, and the copy of the brain I have every new second, while the past one has been destroyed in the other past sequence. That mean that time is none existing, it's only the sequence by which the old possibilities identity has been replicated to the newer possibility. Now, If I kill Sip, there will be a Universe where I would not kill Sip, would the identity be replicated on that possibility ?

Knight, amuse me even more, like I wrote in my other post, don't escape and only leave when the show is over. The Turkish after war tribunal was a public tribunal, and the "occupied" power had even no right to assist to it, it was accepted by both parties that every documents presented at that tribunal, after it would be over should be handed to the British in order to prosecute the prisoners of Malta. This never happened. And BTW, your father the criminal considered as national hero, "Ataturk" was never "tried" by the tribunal, you are making a mistake between two Mustafa Kemals, as usual, like any deniers, you bring distortions, and continue to bring new ones before even admitting your old ones. Ah, and there never was any Malta tribunal, it was planed that a tribunal should be build, based on what was decided during the Peace Conference, but it never happened, there was Malta prisoners, but there never was any Malta tribunal, it is a pure invention by denialists that tries to conter-attack against the Turkish military tribunal. Another claims of yours is that the "traitor" Sultan decided to punish, first of all, thanks for calling a humanist deciding to make justice a "traitor" it shows how your racist and fascist regime has educated you. Oh ! O.K, so if the Turkish military tribunal is not to be trusted, so as the Nuremberg tribunal bringing NAZI war criminals to be judged, because this tribunal was an allied tribunal, while the military tribunal was a Turkish tribunal, so if a "Turkish" tribunal was a product of the "invadors" so was the Nuremberg tribunal. Are you not seeing how ridiculious is your claim ? And if in fact, the documents presented on this tribunal are forged, why than the Turkish government to these days forbidden any access to them, and that even to his own diplomats such as Kamuran Gurun ? If they are forged, why being afraid that people see forged documents ? Another thing, look, I am not interested to answer rubish posted in various sites again and again. Why don't you tell us that the article you post us is a publication of the Turkish foreign ministry affairs, and the author is working at the Turkish diplomacy, and is none other than Bilal Simsir himself ? Why having not only posted the link of the article ? Are you afraid of the source ? Why not just providing the link ? Have you tough that by showing us that it comes from the site of the Turkish Ministry of foreign affairs, it will lose any credibility ? http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ad/adf/simsir.htm Lets see how a good part of those Malta prisoners in fact were taken as prisonners. Mustafa Abdul Halik Bey Malta No. 2800 Interned 7.6.20 Appointments: Vali of Bitlis, March 1914 to September 1915. Under Secretary of State, Ministry of the Interior. Vali of Aleppo October 1915 to April 1917 Brother in law of Talaat [*****]. Lists: His name appears on Lists VI and VII ( List VII is the F.O. List). Arrests: A. He was arrested by the Turkish Government on 9th March 1919, not at our suggestion. The charge was murder. On the Turkish prison list of 7th February 1920, he is stated to have been release on bail; date not given (probably some time between 20.9.19 and 7.2.20). B. He was again arrested by the British Military Authorities on or about the 14th May 1920. Petitions: None to date, 25.2.21 Accusations: 5027/A/20. Through Mr. Ryan on 19th September 1919. Mustafa Abdul Halik, Vali of Bitlis, took part in the councils held at Erzurum to decide on the deportations and massacres of Armenians. These councils were presided over by Dr. Behaeddin Shakir, delegate of the Central C.U.P. (one of the Principal Eight); other members were Tashin Bey (a deportee), Vali of Erzurum; Muammer (a deportee) Vali of Sivas, Djevdet (a deportee), Vali of Van. 5030/B/10. On September 26, 1919, Mrs. Sophie Varjabedian, a Bitlis refuge then at Haidar *****, c/o Rev. B. Bedrossian, Bible House, Constantinople, writes accusing Mustafa Abdul Halik, Vali of Bitlis having carried away under his personal superintendence the safe from the American Mission in Bitlis. The safe contained her money and jewelry. Miss Chane, now at Erivan, reported this to Mrs. Varjabedian. She asks for the restoration of her property and gives a list. Assistant High Commissioner approved the suggestion of making inquires at the United States Embassy but there is no record as to whether any action was taken. 5031/A/6. Name merely appears on a Bureau d'Information Armenien list of 30. 12.18, as the Vali of Aleppo, in connection with Marash massacres. 5035/C/178. On June 7th, 1919, Mrs. Ahisag Ahet Ahlahadian writes, through the A.C.R.N.E (American Committee, Relief in the Near East), saying that she is a Protestant Syrian of Bitlis and that all her relatives had been massacred in 1915 in Bitlis in spite of the fact that she had paid the Vali, Mustafa Abdul Halik, to the extent of LT 541 gold. 5036/48. A. Account by Sympat Kerkoyan of crimes committed by Mustafa Abdul Halik at Bitlis in 1915. Starving prisoners; massacring 200 to 300 at a time outside the town; ravishing and massacring the women; extorting and looting of Armenian property. The stench from putrefying bodies was so bad that Buheddin, Director of Health, Bitlis, received orders to have the bodies incinerated. Buheddin was in Aleppo in 1918. B. Also murder of Djerdjis Kerkoyan, brother of Sympat after Mustafa Abdul Halik had extorted his fortune on promising to spare his life. C. Mustafa Abdul Halik replaced Bekir Sami Bey (the "good" Vali, now a prominent Nationalist) at Aleppo on 4.10.15. There he gave orders for the deportation and killing of Sympat Kerkoyan. Thanks to Hadji Yehia Galib Bey, the defterdar, (now the defterdar of Kastambol) Sympat reached Mossul alive. The above per Mr. Rizzo on 16.10.19. 5030/A/21. Statement by Sympat Kerkoyan, merchant of Bitlis dated 19.5.20. Bitlis May 1915 atrocities. Massacre of Kerkoyan's family; wife and three children; three brother and their families. Kerkoyan's deportation to Mossul by the Vali of Aleppo; Mustafa Abdul Halik. Like you see on the referenced document of accusation, this prisonners was not arrested for no reason, in fact this one like many others were arrested because the Turkish authorities after finding them guilty sent them to Malta and were supposed to hand them the documents charging them, those documents never were handed. Since your Simsir is refering to Curzon, why not posting Curzon admissions that the prisonners were released only to be exchanged with British prisonners, and that he said those release were "a great mistake," and that they have build excuses(such as there was no evidences) to release them. Why Simsir has not included Curzon admission ? "The less we say about these people [the Turks detained at Malta] the better...I had to explain why we released the Turkish deportees from Malta skating over thin ice as quickly as I could. There would have been a row I think...The staunch belief among members [of Parliament is] that one British prisoner is worth a shipload of Turks, and so the exchange was excused." British Foreign Office Archives, FO 371/7882/E4425, folio 182 Now, lets see if in fact there was no evidences, and I shall present them from Turkish sources this time. And just few ones. Trabzon Verdict, 22 May 1919, Published on August 6, 1919 in "Takvimi Vekâyi" No. 3616, p.1 " The massacre and destruction (taktil ve ifna) of the Armenians was executed through secret orders by men who ostensibly had the assignment to implement the law of deportation" (zahiren tehcir kanununu tatbik etmek). Yozgat Verdict, 8 April 1919, Published on August 7, 1919 in "Takvimi Vekâyi" No. 3617, p.2 " The documents, personally signed by the defendants, confirm the fact that the gendarmes escorted the deportee convoys for purpose of massacre. There can be no doubt and hesitation about this" (maksadi ... taktili oldugundan süphe ve tereddüt birakmadigindan). " "When deciding to get rid of them, the party's Central Committee most probably reasoned as follows: 'Indebtedness to [recruited] executioners and murderers is bound to be heavy...Those who are used for dirty jobs are needed in times of necessity [in order to shift] responsibility. It is likewise necessary, however, not to glorify them but to dispose of them just like toilet paper, once they have done their job.'"(Erden, Birinci Dünya Harbinde [n. 8], p. 217) (About the Special organisation members used for the task of killing the Armenians, the job is killing Armenians) Now for the denialists allegations of claming that the allies had Istanbul under control and had access to every files, and were not able to prove Ottoman government responsibility. Here is proves that the Brits had not access to the majority of the files. On 10 February 1919, British High Commissioner, Admiral Calthorpe sent to London reports from the British intelligentsia agency, from where the Turkish Public security official Mr. Aziz in charge of Interior Ministry's wartime archives declares: "Just before the Armistice, officials had been going to the archives department at night and making clean sweep of most of the documents." British Foreign Office Archives. FO371/4172/31307, folio 385. Tunaya, T.Z. "Türkiyede siyasal partiler, Vol. 2, 2nd ed. Istanbul : Hürriyet Vakfi publications. p. 96, n.16. Tunaya relying on Ittihad's Secretary-General Midhat's testimony write: " The documents of Ittihad party were crammed into a suitcase by Dr. Behaeddin Sakir after they had been removed from the party headquarters by Dr. Nazim. The suicase was taken to home of attorney Ramiz, Sakir's brother-in-law." The Turkish press reported in December 1918("Aksam," 12 Dec. 1918; "Tasviri Efkâr," 13 Dec. 1918) that when the police raided the home of Ramiz, they found documents that were still intact, they handed these documents to the Martial-court, then after the dissolution of the martial-court the documents left were never handed to the British like promessed, Mr. Aziz contrary to the promises he made never handed these documents to the British that were waiting them to charge the prisoners of Malta, because a good portion of them were already proven guilty and handed to the Brits, by the Turkish after war tribunal. Atay, F.R. "Çankaya." Istanbul: Sena. pp. 127-128, Djemal's bureau's Deputy director state that before Djemal flight from Istanbul: "...some of his files [containing] official documents were left in the custody of Syfi, one of his men, who out of fear burned them." Aydemir, S.S. "Makedonyadan Ortaasyaya Enver Pasa." Vol. 3, 1914-1922. Istanbul: Remzi. p. 493 "Before the flight of the top Ittihadist leaders, Talat Pasa stopped by at the waterfront residence of one of his friends on the shore of Arnavudköy, depositing there suitcase of documents. It is said that the documents were burned in the basement's furnace. Indeed ... the documents and other papers of Ittihad's Central Committee are nowhere to be found." Telegram ordering the destruction of documents, from the Turkish Interior Minister to the provincial governor at Ayintab, was intercepted by the General Headquarters of the British Army's Egyptian Expeditionary force on 24 January 1919. "Burn orginals of official telegrams since mobilisation on files of district." FO371/4174/15450 On 17 June 1919 the Turkish foreign Minister Safa protested to the British High Commisioner because of their intrusion on trying to examine documents, and in the same time said that, British intrusion will not give much success, because the Diyarbekir-based Director of Telegraphic Service sent a circular telegram ordering to destroy these documents. Admiral Calthrope reported to London after this message: " attention to the tenor of this note which treats as a mere matter of office routine such an important matter as the proposed destruction of documents relating to the period of deportations, massacres, and the activities of the Turkish authorities during the war." FO371/4174/102551 The British realising the destruction of the documents in a weekly summary of intelligence report, dated 4 March 1920, declared from the British Military Intelligence Bureau: "the disappearance of documents incriminating ... Ittihadist." Talking of Rauf: "he urged the destruction of incriminating documents. It is understood that Rauf had already arranged the disappearance of documentary material implicating himself and Enver Pasa." FO371/5166/E1782, Reports 575, 592 Karay was in 1919 the General Director of Telegraphic Service in Turkey, he wrote that Mehmet Emin his predecessor, has sent orders to all principal telegraph centers in the country, directing them: "destroy all official papers, the orginals and copies of all telegrams." Karay, R.H. Minelbab lelmihrab, Istanbul: Inkilâp and Aka, p. 221 Post minister Hüseyin Hasim admitted ordering in 3 June 1919: "all military telegrams burned on orders from the War Office." "Takimi Vekayi." No. 3573, 12 June 1919 From your own Turkish documents, your government documents are forged, because the documents they present to deny the Armenian genocide should have been destroyed like those sources indicate. If in fact they are destroyed, than the documents your government present are "reconstitutions" and more probably "forged" invalide in court of law. Furthermore, when asked for documents, The British ambassador in Washington, D.C., on June 1, 1921, declared. "The U.S. archives containe a large number of documents on Armenian deportations and massacres" FO 371/6503/E6311, folio 34 Later, it was admited. "specific task of prosecution that would require pre-trial investigations, the administration of interrogatories, and the application of other methods of evidence gathering, and it was better to exchange them with prisoners." There never was any prosecutions, no pre-trial investigations, no interrogatories, so how can anyone claim to that matter that any tribunal proved them not guilty, when there was no tribunal in the first place ? The Turkish military tribunal on the other hand, proved that many of those were in fact guilty of ordering and participating in the massacres, this is why they were sent in Malta in the first place, the Ottoman was supposed to send the documents proving why they were guilty, no document was ever sent, the Kemalists dissolved the tribunal and they took off those files. Another interesting point, is how Simsir uses in his article Undersecretary W.S. Edmonds quotations, when he was one of those recognising that the documents are in Istanbul, and that since many were arrested by the Turkish authorities by those documents, they are needed to start the prosecution of those individual. About those prisoners and the evidences about them he declared in August 3, 1921 " there is probably some evidence in the archives of the turkish court martial at constantinople but the really important documents could no doubt be smuggled away before we begin to examine them" But then, about those sent in Malta by the Turkish authorities charging them guilty, the British judge Lindsey Smith August 10 1921 finaly declared. " a considerable amount of incriminating evidence was collected by the turkish government but it is idle to expect to get it. the only alternative is therefore to retain them as hostages only and release them against british prisoners" So much, of your said Malta tribunal. I have many other things to write, but for now, I think this is enough, the next time, I will refer to the special organisation, the role of physician etc... PS: So you were saying the British had access to every documents they wanted ? The Turkish sources and British sources above prove the absolute contrary. As for what Britain believe it has absolutly no historical value at all, the British are in part responsable of the Genocide, and they participated on the illegal building of a new Treaty without respecting the Hague principle of 1899, and more, Politicians moves have no any credible values to write what a genocide is or not, considering British collonisations and past genocides. On the other side, the inventor of the word genocide, is the one that decided what consitute a genocide or not, he has chosen to call the Armenian genocide as genocide, the Armenian genocide was a part of his definition, claiming that what happened to the Armenians is not a genocide, is taking off an important aspect of the definition of the word itself. This is what the inventor of the word says about "Malta" and the Genocide convention. Raphael Lemkin, Lawyer, and the inventor of the word Genocide. "In 1915 the Germans occupied the city of W. and the entire area. I used this time to read more history, to study and to watch whether national, religious, or racial groups are being destroyed. The truth came out only after the war. In Turkey, more than 1,200,000 Armenians were put to death for no other reason than they were Christians ... After the end of the war, some 150 Turkish war criminals were arrested and interned by the British Government on the island of Malta. The Armenians sent a delegation to the peace conference in Versailles. They were demanding justice. Then one day, the delegation read in the newspapers that all Turkish war criminals were released. I was shocked. A nation was killed and the guilty persons were set free. Why is a man punished when he kills another man? Why is the killing of a million a lesser crime than the killing of a single individual? I identified myself more and more with the sufferings of the victims, whose numbers grew, as I continued my study of history. I understood that the function of memory is not only to register past events, but to stimulate human conscience. Soon contemporary examples of genocide followed, such as the slaughter of the Armenians in 1915. It became clear to me that the diversity of nations, religious groups and races is essential to civilization because every one of those groups has a mission to fulfill and a contribution to make in terms of culture.... I decided to become a lawyer and work for the outlawing of Genocide and for its prevention through the cooperation of nations. A bold plan was formulated in my mind. This consisted [of] obtaining the ratification by Turkey [of the proposed UN Convention on Genocide Ed.] among the first twenty founding nations. This would be an atonement for [the] genocide of the Armenians. But how could this be achieved? . . . The Turks are proud of their republican form of government and of progressive concepts, which helped them in replacing the rule of the Ottoman Empire. The genocide convention must be put within the framework of social and international progress. I knew however that in this conversation both sides will have to avoid speaking about one thing, although it would be constantly in their minds: the Armenians." [source: With permission of the Rare Books and Manuscripts Division, the New York Public Library, Astor, Lenox, and Tilden Foundations.] So, here we see Lemkin explaining why he became a lawyer, the Armenian massacres were the central reason why he decided to became a lawyer and fight to stop such crimes. Claiming the Armenian massacres were not a genocide, is to take of somehow the legal aspect of the word genocide.

Don't worry Mahmut Esat, I shall answer you soon.

Vava will.

Knight, how do you expect being taken seriously after your last reply to Twilight Bark, there is basic mistakes in your post, you even start refering to races rather than “ethnicity,” furthermore, the reason the Armenians suffered has little to do with the reason the Turks and Kurds suffered of. Yes ! there was lack of food, lack of medecine, lack of fuel, but it was the Armenians that were sent in the desert left to starve, not the Turks, the Ottoman Empire blocked any help provided to the Armenians, the reason given to the Red Cross and various relief organisations was that they wished nothing to be done that could prolong their lives. Here it is not only about starving and not enough food supply, here it is a question of blocking food supply and as pretext telling that they wish nothing to be done that could prolong their lives. There is even more to that, not only the Ottoman empire has forbidden any possible help destinated to the Armenians by various organisations, but they even refused the help offered by the Germans to feed the Armenians, the Germans in various secret reports, report how the Ottoman authorities were happy on letting the Armenians starve and how this time they have not lost the opportunity, such kind of evidences could even not be found in the cases of the Holocaust. This is even not all, the Turkish military war tribunal made it clear, that there was a plan destinated to destroy the Armenians, they present documents on the participation of physicians in poisoning people, drowning children, evidences of mass burning etc... As for collaborating with the Enemy, here is the official declaration of the Armenian said revolutionary commity. “[…] It was not enough to arrest and imprison the well-known and respected members of the Armenian community or exile them to remote areas; to create fear and terror among the whole nation. No, it was not enough, for the whole of Cilicia and Armenia had to be turned into one vast graveyard.[…] We wished to convince you [CUP] of the consequences of ill-fated policy you wished to pursue. We begged you not to bring about your downfall by starting hostilities with Russia. We implored you not to be swayed by German influence and not to take up arms against the Triple Entente, two of whose members, England and France, have always been loyal allies who have repeatedly saved the state from danger.[…] You behaved with ingratitude and turning your upon your former allies you threw yourself into the arms of Germany whose power turned your head. And, by abandoning the policy of neutrality which you had so far been pursuing you dragged the Ottoman state to destruction. The country, already poor, was totally ruined. You prepared the ground for serious disorders and the bloody defeats that violated the borders of Armenia. You destroyed and annihilated innumerable young lives. Today, incapable of saving your country, you are desperately fighting your last battle and are treacherously assaulting the unfortunate, unarmed and helpless Armenian nation. It is your own policy that has forced the Armenians to take up weapons and form bands in order to protect their communities from systematic extermination. You are reaping what you have sown. The press organ of the Armenian Revolutionary committee, independent of the Party, on its own responsibility, accuses you – those members of the government and of the Society of Union and Progress involved in these incidents – of having inflicted atrocities and murders on the Armenian nation and, likewise, of having committed crimes against the Ottoman state, and declares that it holds you morally and legally responsible. Signed: Dashnaktsutiun” This version has been little bit manipulated by Uras, but in order that you don’t cry for fraud, I presented you the version “collected” by Uras, one of the head of the Ottoman propaganda machine. The source: Uras, Esat, “The Armenians in History and the Armenian Question, Istanbul: Documentary Publications, 1988.(Turkishe Erstausgabe 1953) pp. 874-77 I have another version published in a Canadian newspaper, that is actually closer to the true one, but lets take your own sources. The document is clear cut, it present how the Ottoman violated the border of Armenia, the “Armenia” that is refered here is Russian Armenia that the Ottoman tried to annex, if there was any traitor here, it was the Ottoman that decided to annex and take Russian Armenia, than after that the Russian Armenians fough against the Ottoman, the Ottoman took vengence against the Ottoman Armenians, the same way that the decision to exterminate the Jews was taken after the defeat in Soviet front. The Germans used that as a “said” evidence for a world Jewish conspiration. In this official document, we see nowhere that the Armenians decided any revolution, in fact, the Ottoman sieced the bureau of any Armenian organisations, and they found not any documents or any papers supporting any such thing, if you read the said compilation of Uras, he don’t refer to any such documents that were in the pocession of the Ottoman, because it would disprove what he try to prove. Do you imagine how his claims were unsupported ? The above text was the best he came to claim what he claimed, and this best, even disprove your own claim. Face it, you can’t back up your claims with any valide documentation. Another mistake of yours that is ridiculous, the claim that the Armenians were exempted from taxation. Who are you trying to foul ? From the caclulation I did in the past, and I am ready to provide here evidences and documentations, the Armenians were paying 3 times more taxes than the Turks, and even more for some, they were the subjects that were paying the highest amount of taxes, they were the only having to pay the said Kurdish taxes, that was in part responsable of what happened in 1894. The only reason why the Armenian were exempt from military service was because no Christian subject were trusted to serve in the army, in order to compensate that, the Armenians had to pay the exemption taxe, the boy “head” tax, a taxation pied for any born boy. I am just refering to those, but I can be more specific about the taxation system if you’d like, I have no problem with that. Before claiming something verify if what you said has any sense, because you will only destroy your own credibility if you write such nonesense. Beside that the Young Turk took off the exemption thing. As for British propaganda, and trial. The Turkish military after war tribunal has proved the genocide did happen. DO you know of any trial proving it never happened ?