AGHTAMAR

[Arpa]

Anyone know the identity and the background of this correspondent at Hetq?

Is he in fact an Armenian or is he using that sacred name of Hrant Dink to cover his real identity? Is he an undercover agent of ankaka?

Հրանդ Կատարիկյան Hrant Katarikyan

Hetq” seems to have a much appreciated style of Investigative Reporting.

This article by Hrant is highly disturbing to say the least, where he laments the fact WE, be it citizens of Armenia and the Diaspora did not participate in that farcical fantasy show in thousands and millions to show them that we exist. Like those SSO-s care? All they care is our Dollars and Drams. I can’t blame the Armenians from Polis attending, after all they are citizens of that “country” and they had to support their “patriarch”.

Let me ask this for the zillionth time. Does anyone among us know anyone personaally that attended that “circus”?

BTW. Their media is still reporting that “thousands” did attend. Like, how about less than a “hundred”, all from stambol? We also read that some local “furks” and Kurds also came, but they fail to say that those are “hidden Armenians”.

Here is a story about one of those so called ”furks”;

http://news.am/eng/news/31462.html

http://hetq.am/en/society/akhtamar/

Edited September 20, 2010 by Arpa

[Yervant1]

Anyone who doesn't think like you, must be a non Armenian! Or an agent of the enemy! What a nonsense to say the least.

[Armat]

Boycotting the event was shortsighted. RA Religious orgs should of endorsed and went there despite of cross controversy because we should care about us Armenians and celebrating the Aktamar church!not what Turks did or didn't do.

Unfortunately it became too political and ruin the incentive.

[Arpa]

AH!! SO!!!

Now we wake up after the SHOW is over.

Sad to say I had to use such provocative language.

I had been daily posting references to the event under the Topic of BORDERS

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=22700

With not even a word, not a whisper in response.

Maybe now we can hear our opinions about that “Greatest Show on Earth” that even Barnum and Bailey could not produce.

Me? I would not have taken part in that SHOW for all the “tea”** in China, beside that church is one of my least desirable landmarks.

There is a crude saying; “After the holiday is over, apply the henna where the sun does not shine”.

Maybe now we can hear our pros and cons about attending, not attending.

**There is no (letter)“T” in “china.”

[Armat]

AH!! SO!!!

Now we wake up after the SHOW is over.

Sad to say I had to use such provocative language.

I had been daily posting references to the event under the Topic of BORDERS

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=22700

With not even a word, not a whisper in response.

Maybe now we can hear our opinions about that “Greatest Show on Earth” that even Barnum and Bailey could not produce.

Me? I would not have taken part in that SHOW for all the “tea”** in China, beside that church is one of my least desirable landmarks.

There is a crude saying; “After the holiday is over, apply the henna where the sun does not shine”.

Maybe now we can hear our pros and cons about attending, not attending.

**There is no (letter)“T” in “china.”

If I lived in Armenia I would of gone just to see Մեր երկիրը.Unfortunately here I am trapped by time+work+family+money issues.

[Zartonk]

We just don't get it, do we?

[Arpa]

HUH!! Fatima singing "old Armenian Ballads"?

Our guide was a young local woman called Fatima. She had won over her guests by singing some lovely renditions of old Armenian ballads

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9029559.stm

Published: 2010/09/25 10:53:46 GMT

Turkey's gesture to an uncomfortable past

By Jonathan Head

BBC News, Van, Turkey

The Turkish government wants to improve relations with Armenia, but is it ready to leave behind decades of nationalist dogma and fully confront the country's past?

From the vantage point of the ancient castle, perched atop a rocky outcrop, you can see the whole of the city of Van, spread out between the dazzling blue of the great lake and the jagged mountains to the east.

It is a featureless sprawl of ugly apartment blocks that you might find in any provincial Turkish city. Nothing suggests that it has any history going back more than a few decades.

If you then look to the south, directly beneath you is an area of rough grass, criss-crossed by a maze of paths, with just a few fragments of buildings still visible.

This is Old Van, a city that, until its destruction, had been continuously inhabited for more than 3,000 years.

And a large part of the people who inhabited it were Armenians - it had once been at the heart of a great Armenian empire.

Today there are almost none.

The only two buildings still standing there are mosques. Of the dozen or so churches, there is no trace.

The story of how the Armenians vanished from their historic homeland is not discussed in Van today.

The city proudly describes the waves of invaders who have passed through - Parthians, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Seljuk Turks - but the Armenians who dominated the city just a century ago are hardly mentioned.

“ At least half of the original population died in what many historians call the modern world's first genocide ”

 

This is not surprising really, when you consider that the Ottoman Empire's biggest minority was driven out of Anatolia in 1915 on ghastly death marches.

At least half, maybe much more, of the original population died, in what many historians call the modern world's first genocide.

Today the inhabitants of Van are mainly Kurdish, some probably the descendants of those who killed and seized the property of the Armenians.

The current Turkish government is the first one to seek some kind of accommodation with its Armenian past.

It needs to if it is to fulfil its ambition to be a regional power and to be part of the European Union.

That is why it permitted a Christian service to take place last Sunday in the beautiful little church on Akhtamar Island in Lake Van.

It is the only historic Armenian building still standing in eastern Anatolia, and among the most holy for Armenian Christians.

'Bittersweet'

I happened to be in a bus with an Armenian choir from Istanbul who had been invited to sing at the service.

They were being treated as VIPs - the municipal government wanted them to feel welcome - and we were being given a tour.

Our guide was a young local woman called Fatima. She had won over her guests by singing some lovely renditions of old Armenian ballads.

But when she pointed out the wasteland that is the old city today, all she could say was that the Armenians had, in her words, "disappeared".

For a few moments the bus went quiet then everyone broke into song again.

None of the Istanbul Armenians wanted to talk about the past. They are a very small community, acutely aware of their vulnerability.

The Armenians who had come from the United States for the service were more forthright.

"It's bittersweet, coming here," said one man whose grandparents had fled from Van during the killings.

"We're like parallel cultures, we even look the same," he said, "only we hate each other."

He said there had been strong pressure on him from other American Armenians not to come - they saw the one-off church service as a cynical publicity stunt by Turkey.

At times on Sunday it did seem like that.

The local government had invited an army of journalists to witness the service who threatened to overwhelm the congregation. It also invited local Muslims, who talked and laughed all the way through it.

No-one made any effort to respect the sanctity of the ceremony.

A local boatman told me he was puzzled by the way they were praying. He had never seen a Christian service before. "And why are they crying," he asked? He had no idea.

No discussion

The Turkish government still fiercely defends its version of history - that what happened in 1915 was a tragedy, not a war crime.

In Van, it points out, the Armenians took up arms. For a while they controlled the city and later they helped enemy Russian forces to occupy it.

In the chaos of war, it says, large numbers of Turkish Muslims also died.

But the annihilation of the Armenians is simply blanked out of the history taught in Turkish schools.

There is no discussion, and real dangers await those who try to start one.

It is less than four years since the Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was murdered in Istanbul by a young nationalist for calling for just such a debate.

"This church service is pointless if the Turkish government only wants to appear more tolerant," one Armenian journalist told me.

"It has to change the mindset of the people. Make them confront their past."

In the dreary avenues of modern-day Van, that process has not started yet. Its history is still buried under layers of concrete and by Turkey's uncompromising nationalist dogm

 

Published: 2010/09/25 10:53:46 GMT

 

© BBC MMX

[Arpa]

Աթ մե Մոխիէ

If I lived in Armenia I would of gone just to see Մեր երկիրը.Unfortunately here I am trapped by time+work+family+money issues.

Dear Armat, please elaborate.

Why would you have gone? With what purpose? How would your presence have changed the overall picture? What would your purpose be, to bolster their deception? According to the prducers of that comedy, the Holy Cross is a furkish museum, built by some unwelcome alien "idiots". Not a Church.

What do you mean by "Մեր Երկիրը"? Where did you read, be it in their media or the world media anyone say that it is "Մեր Երկիրը"? Do you have enough military power to reconquer "Մեր Երկիրը"?

No, no a wooden or stone Cross will not do it. They will and have said what to do with the Cross.

Why would you want to go there? To weep your eyes dry?

Do you know Siamanto's "Ափ մը Մոխիր Հայրենի Տուն"?

And, if you believe all those lies, and think they will someday place the cross on top!!

I Have a slightly used bridge in Brighton, or Satani Kamourj to sell you.

Here is the kind of crosses we need, that they'll understand;

http://www.fotosearch.com/bigcomp.asp?path=CRT/CRT466/15477-65dg.jpg

Edited September 26, 2010 by Arpa

[Arpa]

Anyone who doesn't think like you, must be a non Armenian! Or an agent of the enemy! What a nonsense to say the least.

Yervant, please elaborate. When everyone, all the way from Ejmiatsin to Antelias, to Jerusalem, to all the world wide dioceses and prelacies saw the hypocricies and lies, how is it that that reportage not justify our boycott? Did they know something we didn't? What did we lose that we already did not have? How did we "miss that golden opporunity"?

Singing Der Voghormia and waving wooden crosses does not count.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Arpa

[Yervant1]

Yervant, please elaborate. When everyone, all the way from Ejmiatsin to Antelias, to Jerusalem, to all the world wide dioceses and prelacies saw the hypocricies and lies, how is it that that reportage not justify our boycott? Did they know something we didn't? What did we lose that we already did not have? How did we "miss that golden opporunity"?

Singing Der Voghormia and waving wooden crosses does not count.

You don't get it do you? This is what you said "Anyone know the identity and the background of this correspondent at Hetq?

Is he in fact an Armenian or is he using that sacred name of Hrant Dink to cover his real identity? Is he an undercover agent of ankaka?". You have every right to stress your point of view about any subject or topic just like any other person, why is it that when the other person's point of view differs from yours, then that person becomes the agent of Ankara or a non Armenian?

You are very rude and uncivil towards other members points of view. Your language is gutter language! Do you ever wonder why members avoid responding to your posts? You are an old bully in a little world. This might sound harsh but it needed to be said, I hope you get the message.

[MosJan]

Arpa Papik no need to be aggressive

[Yervant1]

AKHTAMAR ET AL: NEW HOTSPOTS FOR ARMENIAN CULTURAL TOURISM?

Hrant Katarikyan

 

http://hetq.am/en/society/akhtamar-3/

[ 2010/09/27 | 14:06 ]

 

Turkey Keen on "Exploiting" Remnants of a People Dispossessed

 

While I confess I don't watch much Armenian TV, the one program I do

tune into is the interview show moderated by Petros, you know the

guy who likes to wear the suspenders a la Larry King. If the guest

is interesting, then the 30 minutes or so is worth it.

 

The other night the topic promised to be an interesting one - the

recent spate of Armenian cultural monuments being renovated in Turkey

and Ankara's agenda in the matter. The panellists, all purported

experts in the field of history and tourism, were to discuss this

and related issues and compare the sector of "cultural tourism"

in the two neighbouring countries.

 

While the general theme was interesting, the panellists, on the whole,

were less than engaging.

 

Akhtamar, Diyarbekir, Malatya, Kayseri...

 

Let's frame the debate, if you will.

 

The Holy Cross Cathedral at Akhtamar, Van, has been renovated

with financing by the Turkish government. It is now classified as a

museum belonging to the state. On September 19, some 1,500 Armenians,

mostly from Turkey, and lesser numbers from the diaspora and Armenia,

travelled there to attend the first religious service on the island

in over 95 years.

 

The St. Giragos Armenian Apostolic Church in Diyarbakir is currently

being rebuilt, almost from the ground up. This huge edifice, dating

back to the 16th century, is being restored under the auspices of

the Armenian Church Patriarchate in Istanbul through the Foundation

Board of the church, made up of Armenians who formerly resided in

Diyarbakir. Only a handful remains today.

 

Since St. Giragos belongs to the Istanbul Patriarchate, unlike

Akhtamar, it is not available for Turkish government funding. However,

a lengthy process ensued to get all the local construction and other

permits required.

 

In November, 2009, the St. Gregory Armenian Apostolic Church in Kayseri

was reopened and re-consecrated after being renovated. At present,

renovation work is being carried out on the Armenian Church in Malatya.

 

So what exactly is going on in Turkey?

 

Sure it's part publicity stunt, to show the international community

that official attitudes have changed in Turkey vis-a-vis its religious

minorities. And of course, these and other steps have been taken to

facilitate Turkey's drive for EU ascension.

 

Turkey recognizes the benefits; does Armenia?

 

But I believe that at the core is the recognition, especially on the

part of regional and local authorities, that it just makes plain

good business sense. Local officials in Van are unambiguous about

their expectations in this regard. A renovated Akhtamar translates

into increased tourist dollars pouring into the local economy. The

same holds true for other cultural and religious sites throughout

Turkey, many located in the economically depressed eastern regions

experiencing Kurdish unrest and demands for improved living conditions.

 

This motivating factor was overlooked by the TV show panellists.

 

The tourism expert, while rightly pointing out that Armenia had a long

way to go in providing a level of services and facilities equalling

that in Turkey, couldn't explain why prices for such inadequate

services were so high in Armenia.

 

During my week's stay in Turkey, taking part in an "Armenian-Turkish

Dialogue Program" organized by the Hrant Dink Foundation, I saw that,

as a tourist, you get what you pay for. The one thing that remained

constant was the level of service - whether in hotels, restaurants

or local shops. People want your business and they spare no effort

to accommodate you.

 

In this respect, Armenia has a long road to travel. The tourist sector

in Armenia thus suffers from a double whammy - relatively high prices

coupled with inadequate levels of service.

 

The government in Yerevan may talk of developing the tourism sector

here, and it makes sense to do so given that there is huge potential

to tap into. But it seems that all the talk is just that.

 

But even the smallest of changes in attitude can make a world of

difference - a smile instead of a frown on the face of a hotel

receptionist and restaurant staff that offer solutions rather than

excuses. The list is long, but let me give one little example that

demonstrates a wider problem.

 

Attitudes in Armenia must change and fast

 

My return flight from Istanbul landed in Yerevan around two in the

morning. Grabbing my bags, I walked a good ½ mile or so through a

corridor flanked with aluminium panels before reaching the parking

lot. There were no cabs in site. I waited for about 20 minutes and

nothing. I guy walked up to me and asked where I was headed too. He

got on the phone and turned to me saying there was a taxi on the

upper level.

 

'Great, tell him to drive down' - I said

 

'No, you'll have to walk up there, it isn't far - he answered.

 

'Why? Don't you see I'll have to carry these bags up there' -

I exclaimed.

 

'Hey, that's the story. You want to wait here all night? - he retorted.

 

This attitude just won't cut it. Imagine if it was a foreign tourist

on the short end of the stick. They'd probably turn around and get

the next plane out.

 

Tourism pumps over $1 billion into the Turkish economy every year

and the numbers of foreign tourist keeps rising; 20 million this

year alone.

 

Hundreds, if not thousands of Armenians from the RoA, already spend

their hard earned AMD in Turkish resorts like Antalya.

 

Will Armenians from the rest of the world now join their ranks,

preferring to visit Aghtamar and other sites in western Armenia over

the ROA?

 

Small groups of the descendants of Genocide survivors having

been making such "pilgrimages" to the towns and villages of their

forefathers in what was once the Ottoman Empire for years. Their

numbers may actually increase now that Turkey has understood it makes

for good publicity and business.

 

It remains to be seen if tourism in Armenia will suffer as a result.

 

It would make sense both in terms of price and service. They would

get a bigger bang for their buck in Turkey. And the attraction of

visiting the "lost homeland", a dream for many for so long, cannot

be discounted either.

 

Reclaiming the national patrimony: step by step

 

Petros asked the panellists on his show what the sense was to restore

a church, however magnificent, if only a handful of Armenians remain

in Akhtamar.

 

They talked about how it might spur "concealed" Armenians to re-enter

the national fold, but failed to mention a very important point.

 

The St. Giragos Church Committee has uncovered a huge number of

property deeds that the church once held. Some of the real estate has

already been returned to the church and is generating an income flow.

 

The return of former church properties is a slow and arduous process

but an important one. The Istanbul Armenian community is doing the

same with a number of properties seized by the Turkish state.

 

Maybe some of those Armenian lobbying groups should allocate a

percentage of their operating budgets to such efforts. It may not be

as glamorous as sitting in Washington DC making speeches and rubbing

shoulders with politicos but such efforts need to be expanded wherever

possible.

 

As I said before in another article, let's start to finally reclaim

that which is possible in Turkey. Boycotting events like in Akhtamar

is easy and leads nowhere. We have to engage ourselves in the process

now unfolding in Turkey, no matter how small the window is.

 

A day or two after the Akhtamar ceremony, a well known ARF official

in Yerevan went on TV and declared that the "process to reclaim the

church had just begun". This boast struck me as more than odd and

just more hollow rhetoric. Why weren't he and the rest of the party

faithful on the island on September 19 doing just that with their

presence? The "process" as he describes it started without them and

most likely will continue without them as well.

 

Armenia need to re-examine what's at stake

 

We all know what is at stake and what Turkey's agenda is. 95 years

after the Genocide and experiencing ultimate assimilation, we have

nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

The question we must ask ourselves, in the end, isn't what Turkey's

agenda might be in tapping into the cultural and historical inheritance

of other peoples, some who passed through as conquerors and others,

like the Armenians, who called the land their native home, only to

be dispossessed through genocide and eviction.

 

Rather, we must ask ourselves here in Armenia, just how effectively

and correctly we are presenting our national inheritance, that which

remains in Armenian hands, to the world at large.

 

Rather than finding fault with our neighbour to the West for

"exploiting" the remnants of Armenian civilization now in their hands,

we should be looking inward and asking tough questions of ourselves.

 

We have a wealth of untapped cultural and historical resources at

our disposal. But look at the reality facing us.

 

Let's clean up our own act first

 

The Sevan shore is an eyesore and a national disgrace. It seems that

every square inch of tourist shoreline has been taken over and turned

into an unappealing mish-mash of campgrounds, food stalls and parking

lots. Go to Garni and hike down into the gorge and you'll encounter

mounds of garbage. I already described the scene at the airport. Do

the Turks know something we just can't fathom?

 

Armenia can have hundreds of medieval churches and ruins; it can

have natural wonders like the Garni "symphony of stones" or the

blue waters of Sevan, but it all means nothing if the government and

people continue to treat such wealth in the most cavalier of fashion,

not comprehending the intrinsic value of what they have inherited.

 

Rather than regarding the natural and man-made wonders in Armenia as

garbage dumps or sites to be exploited for a fast buck, the government

and the private sector must forge a long-term vision of how to present

the wonders of Armenia to the rest of the world in an ecologically

sustainable and economically rational manner. Finally, the people

of Armenia must be involved in the process; they must understand the

benefits to be reaped.

 

Perhaps this is the biggest difference of all between here and there.

 

On that side of the border, people understand what it takes to

attract and keep the tourists coming, and their money - a smile,

a helping hand, picking up the trash; all the small gestures that

leave lasting impressions on a foreign visitor. Good management and

a government committed to such success also play a vital role.

 

Yes, attitudes and mind-sets are slowing changing here in Armenia

for the better. The government professes that the development of the

tourism sector is vital to the long-term economic sustainability of

the country as a whole.

 

The problem is that in this day and age "slowly" just isn't fast

enough.

[Arpa]

The Holy Virgin , Սուրբ Աստուածածին/Mother of God church at Ani;

 

http://asbarez.com/App/Asbarez/eng/2010/09/ani-cathedral-ext.jpg

 

- Asbarez Armenian News - http://asbarez.com -

Turkish Nationalists To Pray In Medieval Armenian Church

 

ANKARA (RFE/RL)–Members of Turkey’s main nationalist opposition party are reportedly planning to gather in an 11th century Armenian cathedral Friday for a politically motivated Islamic prayer that is bound to infuriate Armenians, RFE/RL reported.

Turkish newspapers reported on Tuesday that authorities in the northeastern Kars region have received a formal permission application from the local branch of the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP).

They said its chairman informed dozens of local MHP activists and supporters that the prayer service will take place at the Holy Virgin Cathedral in Ani, the ruined capital of a medieval Armenian kingdom located near the city of Kars, on the existing Turkish-Armenian border.

Built in 1001 A.D. by one of the most celebrated architects of medieval Armenia, Trdat, the church was the largest building in the walled and once prosperous city. It is one of the few surviving examples of the ancient Armenian civilization that existed in what is now eastern Turkey until the 1915 Armenian Genocide.

According to some historians, it was converted into a mosque after Armenia was invaded by the Seljuk Turks in the late 11th century. Official Turkish sources still refer to it as Fethiye Mosque.

Some Turkish newspapers suggested that the MHP’s intention to use it as a Muslim worship site is a response to the September 19 mass in the 10th century Holy Cross Armenian church in Van. However, party leaders attributed the politically explosive move to domestic politics and, in particular, their tense relations with the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) led by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

In the words of Ara Gocunyan, editor of the Turkish-Armenian “Zhamanak” daily, the AKP’s victory in Turkey’s recent constitutional referendum was a serious blow to the MHP. “Apparently, the party is thus trying to revive its fortunes,” he told RFE/RL’s Armenia service.

Citing the Turkish press, Gocunyan said Turkey’s Culture Minister Ertugrul Gunay has warned that the Friday prayer at the Ani church will be deemed illegal if it turns into a “collective demonstration.” Turks can pray there only as “individual citizens,” Gocunyan quoted Gunay as saying.

Newspaper reports also said that the MHP’s top leader, Devlet Bahceli, will also attend the prayer. However, the party has not yet confirmed those reporters, according to Aris Nalci, a journalist with another Istanbul-based Armenian paper, “Agos.”

-----

And this, even if it may better belong under Comedistan. Remember, being called "ermeni" is the ultimate insult;

http://news.am/eng/news/32557.html

Most fierce Anti-Armenian activist of Turkey is Armenian?

September 29, 2010 | 14:14

Turkish press has spread reports on Armenian origins of Devlet Bahceli, leader of “Nationalist Movement Party”. The reports say that he is of an Armenian descent and his predecessors have changed their religious beliefs, Turkish studies expert Ruben Melkonyan told the reporters on Wednesday. Devlet Bahceli has recently stated that he decided to start parliamentary election campaign by uttering a prayer in Cathedral of Ani on October 1.

“Anti-Armenian and anti-Christian sentiments in the Turkish society are reflected in domestic policy. The opposition tries to use religious service in Surb Khach church against the ruling party,” the expert noted.

“The attempts by the Nationalist Movement Party to speculate about the issue show that the majority of Turks are not tolerant towards Christians and Armenians. Bahceli is trying to promote the image of his party by declaring his intention to pray in Cathedral of Ani, as the society was enthusiastic about his initiative,” Melkonyan said. “Probably, he wants to pray in a church of his predecessors. We should ask him “Who will he address in his prayer?” We wish him to finally determine his real identity by praying,” the expert stressed.

How about we go to Ani and sing Ter Voghormia here?

http://www.virtualani.org/minuchihrmosque/mosque7.jpg

[Yervant1]

Let them pray! Let them advertise our churches and our existance for thousands of years on those lands to the whole world even more, for free I might add. I hope journalists ask that idiot bahceli! Where are the people who built these churches and about their whereabouts? The more they react the more it will be talked about.

[Arpa]

Let them pray! Let them advertise our churches and our existance for thousands of years on those lands to the whole world even more, for free I might add. I hope journalists ask that idiot bahceli! Where are the people who built these churches and about their whereabouts? The more they react the more it will be talked about.

Yes, by all means! Let them. Let's remember to bring a thousand media with TV cameras.

---

Aghtamar from another angle;

 

http://news.am/pic/news/32675.jpg

 

Are Aghtamar-Van, Ani and Ararat part of Armenia? See highlights below.. Wlsonian Armenia;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/hy/thumb/c/c8/Miatsyalhayasdan2english.jpg/800px-Miatsyalhayasdan2english.jpg

http://news.am/eng/news/32675.html

Turkish nationalists distraught due to Armenian liturgy

 

September 30, 2010 | 12:10

Turkish nationalists do not know a moment’s peace because of the recent liturgy in Surb Khach (Holy Cross). Hearing their statements mixed with fear one can say western Armenia is on the point of being joined to Armenia.

Chairman of the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP) Devlet Bahçeli is the “father” of such talks. He announced his intention to start work in the Turkish parliament, in cooperation with the heads of the party’s 40 regional chapters, by meeting for a namaz at Surb Khach church on October 1, in response to the Armenian liturgy.

The Turkish Minister of Tourism and Culture immediately responded to the Turkish nationalist’s initiative. He stated that Bahçeli has the personal right to a prayer at any clean place. However, mass religious services with the participation of all the party members run counter to the Turkish Constitution and to the Law on Parties.

The heads of some of the party’s regional chapters responded to the minister’s statement. They are mostly critical of the minister for permitting the liturgy in Van, which has no Armenian community, or the liturgy in the Sümela Monastery in Trabzon, which has no Greek community. Specifically, the MHP member Arif Akkus asked the Turkish authorities who are the Armenian churches opened for and how many people profess Christians without a place for religious services.

The MHP member Erkan Akcay claims the liturgy in the Sümela Monastery was a reminder of Pontus. The liturgy in the church on Akhtamar Island, with an Armenian structure in the east, revealed Armenia’s aims, the Turkish MP said.

The Turkish nationalists’ fear of Armenians and Armenia is expressed in the statements they make and events they organize. For example, after American-Armenian mountaineers installed the Armenian national flag atop Mount Ararat, the frightened nationalists climbed the mountain, carrying banners saying “no” to those who had installed Armenian flags on Mount Ararat. Last year, when the Armenian-Turkish protocols were signed, Devlet Bahçeli addressed Premier Recep Erdogan and stated the committee of historians that was supposedly to be formed was to discuss such issues as whether Ararat was part of Armenia or not, whether eastern Turkey was western Armenia or not.

A namaz the Turkish nationalists plan to organize in the Ani is evidence of their fears to losing the lands they acquired by killing 1,500,000 Armenians.

[yergatuni1]

This is the beginning of Armenian resurgence in the old homeland, local turks and kurds are questioning there ethnic identity and the AG is being discussed more in that country. At first I didn't like the fact that any Armenians were participating in the Sourp Khach ceremony, but now it looks like this ceremony has stirred the pot. If the turks react angrily now to all this and revert back they will look worse than before. the only way is to allow more liturgies to take place and eventually some of the those old churches will be given back to the Armenian Church....If local Armenian churches are revived in old Armenia that is the beginning of a resurgent Armenian presence.

[Arpa]

The silver lining?

The old adage goes; “Every cloud has a silver lining”

http://familytravelsuite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/cloud.jpg

Despite that they have attempted to rename and furkify Aghtamar “ak-damar”, and despite that at one time they tried to rename Ani something like “ana/aneh” to mean “mother”, seems like they have given up and refer to the Armenian City as “ANI”.

No matter how they try, they cannot hide. Look at this headline where the word ermeni”is used, while at one time "gavur/infidel" was the substitute.

Bahceli'den Ermeni sınırında namaz - Bahceli, Ani harabelerinde Cuma icin izin istedi Kiliseden bozma cami icin istenilen bu izin yeni bir tartışmayı alevlendirdi!..

.

Translation- “bokhcheli” asked to conduct “namaz” at the … church converted to “mosque” (?) Ani Cathedral… I don’t quite understand “Ermeni sinirinda”. “sinir” in their non-language means “sinew/nerve”.

Note how they are reciting the word “ermeni” whereas a few years ago there was not such a word or people.

Another subject.

As to the origin of the name ANI, we will come to that even if there is very precious about it.

Observe the picture here but don’t be fooled with their pants and neckties. Deep down, I mean down they are still the pantless savages.

http://news.am/pic/news/32893.jpg

BTW. In their culture and language the necktie/cravate/փողկապ is known as “medenyet yulari” to mean the “(dog) leash of civilization”.

http://www.sybarites.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/hleash.jpg

Edited October 1, 2010 by Arpa

[Yervant1]

I don’t quite understand “Ermeni sinirinda”.

It means at the Armenian border. Look at the "i"s without the dodts on top of it, and it sounds as "eh".

[Arpa]

It means at the Armenian border. Look at the "i"s without the dodts on top of it, and it sounds as "eh".

Yes, Yervant. “Demarcation line” How did you know that? I didn’t. I still can’t make a connection to its etymology. My miniscule dictionary does not refer to it** but the internet does. I hate to advertise their non-language, but just so we know what it means when we see it in their news.

sınır çizgisi (line of demarcation, borderline, boundary line, demarcation line, line),…, sınır (limit, border, boundary,).

---

Sinir in English nerve, sinew, temper, fury, tantrum, pet nervous, neural border, frontier, borderline, boundary, limit, borderland, boundary...

**BTW. Conversely looking up “border” at the that miniscule dictionary it does list the word as such.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Arpa

[Yervant1]

Yes, Yervant. “Demarcation line” How did you know that? I didn’t.

Let's say that I know a thing or two about that nonlanguage.

[Yervant1]

Gunaysu: Akhtamar: A Lost Paradise

 

Sat, Oct 2 2010

http://www.armenianweekly.com/2010/10/02/gunaysu-akhtamar-a-lost-paradise/

 

By: Ayse Gunaysu

 

 

My Akhtamar visit was a huge pile of mixed thoughts and feelings,

mainly that of despair and indignation from being in physical contact

with evidence of the painful truth.

 

 

A lost paradise (Photo: The Armenian Weekly)

Images are engraved in my mind... Of the solemn and dignified faces of

Armenians praying, some touching and caressing the age-old stones of

the Sourp Khatch Church, some crying...The exquisite stonework

responding to my touch like a living being at the nearby

thousand-year-old cemetery, totally left to destruction by the forces

of nature... A land that lost its children without a trace... The official

sign informing visitors about the church without a single reference to

`Armenians'... The ragged mountainous landscape, once the homeland of

Armenians, now welcoming people with a gigantic crescent and star of

the Turkish flag, accompanied by the words `Gendarmerie-Commando'... The

Kurdish people of Van expressing an almost shy, warm hospitality and a

visibly apologetic way of displaying a readiness to help... But also the

treasure hunters, seeing this `historical' gathering as a good

opportunity to find Armenians from abroad for help in uncovering the

gold that their grandparents may have buried before being massacred or

taken on their death march... And a gathering in a bookstore on one of

the busiest streets of Van where Ara Sarafian, an Armenian historian

and the director of the Gomidas Institute from London, and Osman

Koker, the founder of Birzamanlar Yayincclik from Istanbul, are

presenting the book Aghtamar: A Jewel of Medieval Armenian

Architecture, which they jointly published for the Akhtamar church

service on Sept. 19.

 

My visit to Van allowed for extraordinary encounters. I met people on

my way to Van, at Van, and on my way back to Istanbul, all leaving

unforgettable memories in my mind.

 

I met an Istanbul Armenian who had lost three quarters of his lungs at

the hands of his torturers in 1979 in Adana because of his leftists

activities, and who years later found an entire tribe in the southeast

Turkey whose members told him they were Armenian, their ancestors

having converted to Islam in 1915.

 

I met two friends, ordinary Turkish Sunni housewives on Akhtamar

Island a day before the church service, totally unpoliticized, who had

bought their plane tickets months before just to be there on Sept. 19,

leaving behind their husbands whom, they said, would not even dare to

object, just to share the feelings of Armenians as a personal apology

for their sufferings.

 

I met a French Armenian journalist and photographer who showed me the

thousand-year-old gravestones on the island. He said the stones carved

by a real master of stonemasonry would talk to you. He said he found

all that happened around him in Van `strange, very strange.' His

beloved grandfather had died with his secrets; whenever he'd attempted

to talk of the past, he'd start to cry, and was never able to tell

what happened to his family. And for the love of his grandfather, the

French Armenian had decided to come to Van, and trace his

grandfather's past in his old homeland.

 

I met Kurds who were ready to do anything to make their Armenian

guests comfortable there. Yet, also met Kurds in charge of a

restaurant who refused to serve tea to a group of elderly Armenians

from Istanbul because the group's tourism agency had arranged a lunch

at another restaurant, and not theirs.

 

 

In yesterday's Vostan, (today's Gevash), the mountain slope facing the

Aghtamar island greets the Turkish military. (Photo: The Armenian

Weekly)

On Sept. 19, the day of the church service, I saw civil servants in

charge of healthcare services, members of the press, and locals from

Van, all in greater numbers than the Armenians who had come to pray.

Looking at the people praying and watching the liturgy on the huge

screens installed in the churchyard, I saw a visible fulfillment on

their faces, a satisfaction from just being on Akhtamar Island, so

close to the Holy Cross Church standing majestically as a witness of

the history of the Armenians. I also saw that, instead of the privacy

they needed, they were constantly surrounded by not only the press but

ordinary people who were wandering around them, taking photographs,

trying to capture the image of praying Armenians. The churchyard was

like a carnival, in total contrast to the historical setting and the

meaning of the day. There was almost an environment created of

disrespect - not only because of disrespectful individuals, but because

of the circumstances, because of what was going on: Nobody, after all,

except a few tourists, would walk around a praying Muslim in a mosque

to take his photograph. A praying Armenian, though, was `newsworthy,'

an interesting scene to capture-and where? In the very heart of old

Armenian land, in Van!

 

But of all these human stories and experiences during my visit to Van,

there was one that summarized the whole truth. I met a woman, a

Diyarbakir Armenian still living in Diyarbakir, who told the story of

an old Armenian lady from Yerevan. At the hotel in Van, just before

leaving for the concert organized on the occasion of the church

service at Akhtamar, a decent looking Turkish gentleman had kindly

asked the group whether anyone was from a certain old Armenian village

in Van; he said he wanted to hear about that village. When it was

understood that the elderly lady from Yerevan was the granddaughter of

a woman from that village, the man told them that he was an academic

and presented his identity card. The elderly lady was moved by this

stranger who wanted to know more about the village and her

grandmother's story, so she said she wanted to talk. The Armenian

woman from Diyarbakir accepted to act as the interpreter between them.

At the cost of missing the first half of the concert, the elderly lady

started to tell her grandmother's story, which was heart-rending. So

much so that at one point, the woman from Diyarbakir suggested they

discontinue the conversation. The elderly lady had become lost in sad

memories and the details made her ill. The last words of the man, the

last thing he asked, was if she knew of any buried gold in the

village; if there was any, he said he could help in recovering it, and

would share what they found! The woman from Diyarbakir, didn't

translate the last question for the elderly lady who had believed the

man was sincerely interested in her story and shared her feelings.

 

This was in paralleled to what is happening in Akthamar: One of the

few Armenian monuments that had survived to date was taken away from

its owners and given to the government of the state founded at the

expense of their annihilation. A treasure above the ground was taken

away from the people it belonged to. Meanwhile, the remains of old

Armenian buildings are still being destroyed not by the government but

by the members of the `governed' in search of a treasure thought to be

under the ground, of valuables left by the victims.

 

There's the `Old Van' beneath the towering ancient castle. The

Armenian quarter where, in 1915, the siege and resistance took place.

A bare land surrounded by a fence with a sign that reads: `PROTECTED

AREA.' There are the remains of walls here and there, but two

perfectly renovated mosques. The rest of the area feels surreal

because of the strangely undulating topography, one tumulus rolling

after another, like the waves of the sea, the remains of houses

covered in the course of time by the ground and grass. I say surreal

because in many places, the old neighborhoods are populated with new

inhabitants, constructing new-and ugly-buildings. But the Old City of

Van has strangely been left untouched, like a haunted place nobody

could dare go to or make any use of. It is there, keeping the memory

alive. And nearby, in fact side by side, there is another world,

another life going on, another reality that is totally disconnected

with this one. There, in the Old City, you can physically touch the

existence of a lost world, side by side with a living one, and you

lose your perception of reality.

 

So I ask myself, how can `permission' - given to Armenians to visit

their ancient and sacred land in Akhtamar after nearly a century - serve

as a real effort toward reconciliation if there is no mention of

Armenians in the sign welcoming the guests to the island?

 

Yes, it is good to see the Akhtamar Sourp Khatch Church renovated and

not left to dilapidation. I appreciate that. But there is still a lot

to do for real change in Turkey, even for a government who finds it

impossible to recognize the Armenian and Assyrian Genocide for

political, strategic, social, cultural, etc., etc. reasons. For

example: changing school textbooks and the official material on the

Armenian historical and cultural heritage in this country; removing

from office governors who use the word Armenian as an insult

(recently, the governor of Batman accused Kurds of being `servants of

Armenians' because they boycotted the education system by not sending

their children to school at the start of the school year); dismissing

members of cabinet who use hostile language to describe Armenians

(again recently, the state minister and vice-premier said the dead

bodies of PKK guerillas who were found to be uncircumcised were an

indication of the bond between `Armenian terrorism' and the PKK);

removing the foreign minister in whose office that shameful ECHR

defense was drawn up; passing laws penalizing racist and

discriminatory language against those other than Sunni Muslim Turks;

giving back the seized properties of non-Muslim foundations; and of

course many more.

 

But is there a collective will in the Turkish society - amongst the

`governed' - strong enough to urge the government to take such steps? I

don't think so. Not yet. But there are signs that it is slowly yet

erratically emerging. One sign was the two Turkish housewives on

Akhtamar Island, who said they wanted to be there at all costs to

share the Armenian visitors' feelings.

 

A sign much more meaningful than the half-hearted, poorly designed

gesture by the Turkish government.

[Arpa]

Maybe we should all send a thank you note(?) to that clown for shining the light on the Gem of Armenian Architecture and History. Not even all the gold in Fort Knox could have bought so much free advertisement. This is just a beginning, they “invited” the world media, which will follow up for a long time. Even if the A word may not appear at the site, look how Freely they are using the Armenian name of the City, where as a short time ago the A word was considered a blasphemy , just as even now alleging that one’s mother is Armenian is tantamount to mean one is “born out of wedlock”. Also note how below the writer suggests “what if Armenians were to pray at mosque”, I had alluded to that in a previous post, but of course I did not mean it literally as Christian Armenian prayer is not a matter for ridicule, as they made a mockery of the Muslim prayer. Also note, surveying the pictures and videos of that farcical comedic charade and tell us how many women you see. Another subject.

---

October 4, 2010 | 19:20

Namaz in Ani church: eye for eye, tooth for tooth

 

October 04, 2010 | 12:12

Mutlu Tombekci, an analyst for the Turkey-based Vatan newspaper, severely criticized Devlet Bahçeli, the leader of the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), who, together with his supporters, performed a namaz at Ani church in protest at the liturgy in Surb Khach church on Akhtamar Island.

“Some asked why the ‘liberals’, who attended the liturgy at the Armenian church on Akhtamar Island, did not take part in the namaz in Ani chuch. My answer to them is:

“1. The permission for a liturgy at the Sümela Monastery in Trabzon was granted in December 2009, eight months before the 2010 liturgy.

“The permission for annual liturgies on Akhtamar Island was granted on March 25, 2010, seven months before the September 19 liturgy.

“As regards the unsanctioned namaz at Ani, I knew about it two days before. They got permission within 12 hours and performed namaz the following day. I did not understand the reason for their haste as well. Days run out? Only Bahçeli and his mob knew about the namaz just three days before?

“2. There is a great difference between the namaz at Ani and the liturgy in Surb Khach on Akhtamar Island.

“Ani Church is not a Muslim sacred place. Did Armenians hold a liturgy at a mosque that had been turned into a church? It is an Armenian church. Armenians built this church 1,000 years ago, and it served as an office of the patriarchate. They wished to hold a liturgy at a renovated church and had been waiting for it for three years. They got a permission and, as normal people, informed everybody of that. Everybody made their plans accordingly, and we went to observe the liturgy. One more thing: in what place of your country you cannot perform namaz? How many Muslims have to this day known about Ani? I tell you. None!

“3. Why was I to act like a child? Why Ani? Why in an Armenian city? Why a church turned into a mosque? Even to this day no sign in Ani contains the word ‘Armenian’, but it is another topic. But Bahçeli’s gang knew it was Armenian.

“The namaz performed by the Turkish nationalists did not look sincere at all. It followed the ‘eye for eye, tooth for tooth’ principle. It was full of hate and smacked of revenge.

“So what you say. If you perform namaz not in Ani, but in the Voyvoda mosque, which was turned into a museum of Greek folk art in Athens. You will say: we have permission, let us go. You should know, I would be happy to come with you. We will perform namaz in the Greek capital and have kebab at an Armenian restaurant thereby giving them an answer.

“Come on, turn to the Athens Mayor for permission to perform namaz. Kebab at my expense, and do not be afraid – I will not treat you pork,” Mutlu Tömbekçi writes in her article.

The article evoked a wide response throughout Turkey. A number of journalists were highly critical of it in their articles.

News from Armenia - NEWS.am

[Arpa]

AND THE BEAT GOES ON!!!!!

And the lies go flying!!!

The liars’ club is working overtime.

In another two days it will be the one year anniversary of that farcical fiasco of the signing of the “proctocols“. The liar’s club headquarters may be in ankara , but it seems it has subsidiaries in Yerevan, While they are assuring the world that the talks are ongoing Mr. Nalbandian is refuting. Who is the bigger liar?

Look at these two stories. Technical problems? That the entire structure had to be reconstructed to accommodate the “ten ton” cross? That it will be installed before April 24, that it will take another 1.5 months?

http://news.am/eng/news/29659.html

September 03, 2010 | 10:07

Turkish authorities made dishonorable step, announcing they will not manage to put the cross on the dome of Surb Khach Church on Akhtamar Island, because of technical problems and will place it after the September 19 liturgy.

 

Deputy Patriarch of Constantinople Archbishop Aram Ateshyan arrived in Van to familiarize himself with the activities for the opening ceremony of Surb Khach. According to Ateshyan, Van Governor had said setting a 200 kg cross requires a special tower and they would not manage to place it till the opening ceremony, as it is a difficult process, Turkish Heberturk reports. The Governor had said the cross will be shown to everybody on September 19 and set on the dome after the liturgy.

The governor’s words were an unpleasant surprise to the Chairman of the Van’s Trade and Industry Chamber Zahir Kandasoglu as well. The latter stressed they are entrepreneurs and consider many issues will be solved if trade and economic relations improve.

Later, Archbishop Aram Ateshyan and representatives of the Armenian patriarchate met with Mayor of Van, who promised to do everything possible to organize the event properly and honor the guests.

-----

There were many stories between the above Sept. 3 and the below Oct. 2.

Note below that it took a three year “technical problems" was resolved in a few hours? “several (technical?)hours” to install.

http://news.am/eng/news/33010.html

Cross on Surb Khach on Akhtamar Island consecrated

October 02, 2010 | 16:31

Head of the Religious Council of the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople Abbot Tatul Anushyan consecrated the cross on the dome of Surb Khach Church (Holy Cross) on Akhtamar Island, Turkish Hurriyet daily reports.

As reported previously, on September 30, the cross was erected on the dome of the Surb Khach Church (Holy Cross) on Akhtamar Island. The cross was installed during several hours. October 1, tourists were prohibited to visit Akhtamar Island

 

AND THE BEAT GOES ON!!

Your favorite "armenian"?

----

Ps. This will be reposted under the topic Liars' Club

Edited October 8, 2010 by Arpa

[Yervant1]

ANTI-ARMENIA GROUP PLANS PROTEST AT AKHTAMAR CHURCH

13:44 30.08.2013

Akhtamar, Armenian Church, Turkey

ASÄ°MDER, an anti-Armenian Diaspora association that "battles unfounded
Armenian claims," has announced that it will be placing flowers in
front of the Akhtamar Church, in commemoration of Turks killed in 1918,
the Hurriyet Daily News reports.

The move is intended to counter a baptism ritual planned by Armenians
in the same historic church in the southeastern province of Van. The
baptism ceremony will be held in the recently restored ancient church
during an annual Divine Liturgy on Sept. 8.

Many Armenians in Turkey and from overseas flock to the 10th century
Church of the Holy Cross on the tiny island of Akhtamar in Armenian
in Lake Van to attend the ceremony, which has been held every year
since 2010. Turkish authorities restored the church between 2005
and 2007 before opening it as a museum, where the Divine Liturgy was
celebrated in 2010 for the first time in 95 years.

This year, a baptism ceremony will also take place during mass at
around 11 a.m. on Sept. 8 in the historical church, said Muzaffer
Aktug, head of the Van Culture and Tourism Directorate, according to
Turkish-Armenian weekly Agos.

Aktug said they expected more people to attend this year's service
due to the ongoing peace process.

http://www.armradio.am/en/2013/08/30/anti-armenia-group-plans-protest-at-akhtamar-church/

[Arpa]

　

Holy Mass served in Armenian church at Aghtamar Island on Lake Van

http://news.am/eng/news/170330.html

Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jmqkMKidgPk#t=14

Photos

http://news.am/eng/photos/sessions/liturgy-in-the-church-of-the-holy-cross-on-akhtamar-island/

======
September 09, 2013 | 01:01

VAN. – Ninety-eight years after the Armenian Genocide, the fourth Divine Liturgy was served Sunday in Surp Khach (Holy Cross) Armenian Church at Akhtamar Island on Turkey’s Lake Van.

The event was held without any incidents and in a warm atmosphere (PHOTOS).

This year’s mass stood out by an active participation by Armenians from Armenia, the Armenian News-NEWS.am reporter informs from Van. But numerous Armenians from Turkey likewise attended the divine service.

The Holy Mass was offered by Archbishop Aram Ateshyan, the Armenian Deputy Patriarch of Constantinople, who informed that a baptism ceremony will be held at the church after 100 years. And following the divine service, the members of an Istanbul family, which had returned to their Armenian roots, and five persons from Armenia, including 8-year-old Van, were baptized.

Armenia’s well-known political and public figures, the US Consul in Turkey’s Adana, the mayors of Van and Gevas, an MP representing Van, famous Turkish actor and director Kadir Inanir, and many other well-known officials and individuals also were on hand at the Holy Mass.

The Turkish police were taking security measures at Akhtamar Island and the harbors toward the island. The police boats and helicopters were on duty around Lake Van, and rescue squads and ambulance staff were on duty on the island.

The security officers on Akhtamar Island claimed that about 3,000 people were on the island at the time of the divine service, and more people visited the island throughout the day.

====

Compare and contrast to this farce. at #530

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=17935&page=27#entry309314