Only Armenian Apostolic Church?

[RemainFaithful]

Why is it that there's a section for the Armenian Apostolic Church only? What about the Armenian Catholic and the Armenian Evangelical Churches? Why don't they have their sections?

[annannimusss]

Because the Armenian Apostolic Church is the Church of the Armenian people.But I do also consider the Armenian Catholic Church to be part of the Armenian people.But not the Evangelical mumbo Jumbo.

[Armenak]

Because the Armenian Apostolic Church is the Church of the Armenian people.But I do also consider the Armenian Catholic Church to be part of the Armenian people.But not the Evangelical mumbo Jumbo.

Then this guy was Evangelical mumbo jumbo?

[Sip]

How about the Armenian Jehovah Witness Church and the Armenian Mormon Church?

 

Also there should be a section for Armenian jews.

And one more for Armenian Muslims.

 

Actually, I am still amazed that even in the 21st century we still feel the need to discuss the archaic topics of "religion".

 

[RemainFaithful]

Because the Armenian Apostolic Church is the Church of the Armenian people.But I do also consider the Armenian Catholic Church to be part of the Armenian people.But not the Evangelical mumbo Jumbo.

 

I wonder what's the logical reason behind your acceptance of the Armenian Catholic Church as part of the Armenian people, and rejection of the Armenian Evangelical Church to be part of the Armenian people.

 

Can I ask about your knowledge regarding the Armenian Evangelical Church?

 

Armenag mentioned Tehlirian... Do you know who Rev. Hampartzoum Ashjian (Adana), Rev. Dikran Antreyasian (Mousa Dagh), Adour Levonian (Ainteb), Rev. Karekin Chitchian (Kharpert), Aram (bek) Cholakian (Zeytoun), Khatoun Chavoush, Rev. Haroutioune Toumanian and Rev. Mihran Manisajian (Amasia) are?

 

Are you saying that these Armenians fought against the Turks in vain? Were they not Armenian?

[RemainFaithful]

How about the Armenian Jehovah Witness Church and the Armenian Mormon Church?

 

Also there should be a section for Armenian jews.

And one more for Armenian Muslims.

 

Actually, I am still amazed that even in the 21st century we still feel the need to discuss the archaic topics of "religion".

 

Sip, is it right for me to conclude from your words above, that the Armenian Apostolic Church section should be removed?

[Eurocentric]

Silly question. The Apostolic Church is the NATIONAL Church. The others aren't!

[Sip]

Sip, is it right for me to conclude from your words above, that the Armenian Apostolic Church section should be removed?

 

I think it is about time to cleanse ourselves from all religion and devote a section to simply "Truth"

[annannimusss]

Because we Christian Armenians were not "Christian" enough to the Protestants, therefore they brought the "true Faith" to us,that is what really pisses me off.That's why I don't think that the Protestant Armenians should be Protestant,they should join the Church that kept them Armenian all these years and the Church that lost over 5,000 priests to the Genocide just like thousands of Protestant Armenians who fought and died for their people who died because they all kept their faith. Who do these Protestants think they were back then and now saying that the Armenian Church is not Christian or biblical to them and that the liturgy that has been the same for over a Thousand years is incorrect and again not biblibcal.This is why I don't like the Armenian Protestant Churches.

 

And yes the Armenian Apostolic Church is the National Church, that is what I should have said from the begining.And the Armenian Catholic Church has been around since the Crusades,where we had a Crusader State in Cilicia that was heavily influenced by the Catholics and many Armenians became Catholic at this time.

[aSoldier]

I think it is about time to cleanse ourselves from all religion and devote a section to simply "Truth"

 

Agreed.

[Boghos]

Because we Christian Armenians were not "Christian" enough to the Protestants, therefore they brought the "true Faith" to us,that is what really pisses me off.That's why I don't think that the Protestant Armenians should be Protestant,they should join the Church that kept them Armenian all these years and the Church that lost over 5,000 priests to the Genocide just like thousands of Protestant Armenians who fought and died for their people who died because they all kept their faith. Who do these Protestants think they were back then and now saying that the Armenian Church is not Christian or biblical to them and that the liturgy that has been the same for over a Thousand years is incorrect and again not biblibcal.This is why I don't like the Armenian Protestant Churches.

 

And yes the Armenian Apostolic Church is the National Church, that is what I should have said from the begining.And the Armenian Catholic Church has been around since the Crusades,where we had a Crusader State in Cilicia that was heavily influenced by the Catholics and many Armenians became Catholic at this time.

 

Sako,

I suggest you study the genesis of the Armenian Evangelical Church.It is much more "Armenian" than the Catholic Church.

[Arpa]

I wonder what's the logical reason behind your acceptance of the Armenian Catholic Church as part of the Armenian people, and rejection of the Armenian Evangelical Church to be part of the Armenian people.

 

Can I ask about your knowledge regarding the Armenian Evangelical Church?

 

Armenag mentioned Tehlirian... Do you know who Rev. Hampartzoum Ashjian (Adana), Rev. Dikran Antreyasian (Mousa Dagh), Adour Levonian (Ainteb), Rev. Karekin Chitchian (Kharpert), Aram (bek) Cholakian (Zeytoun), Khatoun Chavoush, Rev. Haroutioune Toumanian and Rev. Mihran Manisajian (Amasia) are?

 

Are you saying that these Armenians fought against the Turks in vain? Were they not Armenian?

A short time ago someone here professed to be a staunch protector of the Mother Church, and the same time professed to be a strong adherent to the ADL-AGBU-Ramkavar Party.

It makes one wonder how much one knows about their heritage.

Below you will see that Kersam(Gersam) Aharonian was not only the editor of the ADL organ Zartonk, but also a high ranking official of the Ramkavar Party.

Kersam was born (1916) in Marash of displaced Zeituntsi parents , …after a long trek ended up in Aleppo, educated at Evangelical schools (Bethel and Aleppo College) . One must also remember that his elder brother Rev. Hovannes , an intellect in his own right was a long time president of NEST, the Near East School of Theology which up to this day produces theologians, intellectuals and arm enologists , much like the father of modern Armenology Rev. Yeghia Kassouny.

http://www.armtown.com/news/am/azg/20060304/2006030421/

…Գերսամ Ահարոնեան ծնած է 16 Նոյեմբեր 1916-ին՝ ի Մարաշ, զէյթունցի ծնողներէ: 1920-ին, ֆրանսացիներու Կիլիկիայէն քաշուելուն հետեւանքով, նախ ընտանեօք Մարաշէն ապաստանած է Ատանա, ուրկէ փոխադրուած է Ալեքսանտրէթ եւ ապա՝ Հալէպ: Նախնական ուսումը ստացած է Հալէպի Բեթէլ Աւետարանական վարժարանին մէջ եւ ապա յաճախած է Ալեփօ քոլէճ: 1935-ին մեկնած է Կիպրոս՝ Մելգոնեան կրթական հաստատութիւն, աւարտելով անոր վարժապետանոցը 1937-ին: 1937-1942 թթ. իբրեւ ուսուցիչ եւ դաստիարակ-հսկիչ

The counterpoint.

Please read the editor’s note at the end.

Խմբ. կողմից.-Ի տարբերություն հոդվածագրի բացարձակ գնահատականների, հաստատենք, որ պատմական պայմանների բերումով մեր Մայր եկեղեցուց բաժանված հայ բողոքական համայնքում, ի մասնավորի Միջին Արեւելքի երկրներում, կան ազգային ոգով տոգորված, կրոնախոհությամբ չտառապող բազմաթիվ մտավորականներ ու գործիչներ, ովքեր թերթեր են հրատարակում, դպրոցներ ու համալսարան են պահում, եւ հայ առաքելականներից ոչ պակաս նվիրված են հայապահպանության գործին ու հայ արժեքներին: Ի դեպ, նրանցից շատերն են դժգոհ Հայաստանում վերապատվելի Ռ. Լեւոնյանի գործունեությունից:

http://www.azg.am/?lang=AR&num=2007051521

The flip side.

Are there any ARF/Dashnak historians here?

I can’t find him on the net. Does any one know the biography of Louder(luther) Masmanajian(Masbanajian, a distant cousin of Tehlirian?) of Aleppo, the one time chairman of the ARF?

Edited May 15, 2007 by Arpa

[Arpa]

"Խմբ. կողմից.-Ի տարբերություն հոդվածագրի բացարձակ գնահատականների, հաստատենք, որ պատմական պայմանների բերումով մեր Մայր եկեղեցուց բաժանված հայ բողոքական համայնքում, ի մասնավորի Միջին Արեւելքի երկրներում, կան ազգային ոգով տոգորված, կրոնախոհությամբ չտառապող բազմաթիվ մտավորականներ ու գործիչներ, ովքեր թերթեր են հրատարակում, դպրոցներ ու համալսարան են պահում, եւ հայ առաքելականներից ոչ պակաս նվիրված են հայապահպանության գործին ու հայ արժեքներին: Ի դեպ, նրանցից շատերն են դժգոհ Հայաստանում վերապատվելի Ռ. Լեւոնյանի գործունեությունից:

For those in need, the above Editor’s Note reads;

“In deference to the writer of the above article’s absolute critique, let us state that, due to historical conditions, those so are called dissidents from the Mother Church, most notably those in the Middle East, there are those, driven by nationalistic fire, with little religious and denominational discrimination, have produced many intellectuals, newspaper editors, founders of many educational institutions, and who are keeping, and promoting our heritage not any less than the Apostolic Church…”.

Do the editors know what they are talking about? Or, shall we listen to our nursery chair theological philosophers?

Remember that Avetik Hakobian, the current editor of AZG is a one time editor of Zartonk, and by association a protégé, perhaps an admiring student of Gersam Ahanronian.

OK. All those defenders of WA v EA. Show us how what and how Gersam wrote (WA)then and how Avetik writes today (EA)are different.

Haigazian Universsity (College) has, and still does have one of the largest departments of Armenology, perhaps next to YU.

Edited May 15, 2007 by Arpa

[annannimusss]

Arpa what ever you said is good and all.Actually my Great-Grandfater who past away 2 1/2 years ago was from Zeitune and of course a Ramgavar.Weird how Kersam(Gersam) Aharonian was also a person whose family was origainally from Zeitune.

 

The Ramgavars are a political organization not a church organization.All Armenians of all faiths are members,just like the AGBU,but the AGBU is a Humanitarian Organization.

[Boghos]

 

The Ramgavars are a political organization not a church organization.All Armenians of all faiths are members,just like the AGBU,but the AGBU is a Humanitarian Organization.

 

Yes.But the Ramgavar oath says that you should protect the "Mother Church".And also there is a minor correction, instead of "The Ramgavars are a political organization...", it should read "The Ramgavars were a political organization..."

[Arpa]

Yes.But the Ramgavar oath says that you should protect the "Mother Church".And also there is a minor correction, instead of "The Ramgavars are a political organization...", it should read "The Ramgavars were a political organization..."

Boghos, you know better than I that this thread should be moved out of "Religion" and maybe placed under "Politics" and or "factionalism".

So far, nothing has been said about Christian doctrine and faith, except to find more ways to divide the nation.

[ED]

Ramkavars were always has been and are cultural organization, never a political one in real seance of the word, I would call it a party of few privliged rich

[annannimusss]

My family in Zahle were not priveleged rich,actually the exact opposite.The Ramgavars do have many many rich people in its Organization, put it also has the people on the other side of the spectrum.

[abass80]

i want to start by saying that i'm not in the best of terms with religion. quoting Esqueleto from Nacho Libre i would say "...i believe in science..."

 

i do not believe that religion makes someone more patriotic (the nation is more important than any religion), but i agree with some previous posts that the armenian apostolic church is an armenian church (established by armenians) while the others were brought to us by the europeans and the americans.

 

the thing that has troubled me since i started understanding more about religions was who makes the decisions (behind closed doors that is) for the followers of each faith! by not saying that we armenians always make the right decisions, i find it hard to accept that someone wearing a rope in Italy, or some ppl in their business suits in the US will decide on what course their armenian followers will take and with their actions and decisions influence the course of our nation.

 

i'm also curious to know how close r the armenian evangelicals with the american evangelicals? i know that they share the same dogma but is there anything more than that?

the reason that i'm asking is because i've seen a couple of documentaries about evangelicals in america and i was shocked by seeing how fanatical they r! maybe those were a hardliner faction of evangelicals but if u take of all bible related stuff from that picture there were no differences between them and fundamental muslims!

 

 

 

 

[RemainFaithful]

In Wikipedia there's a small introduction about the Armenian Evangelical Church. Perhaps it will help...

 

-->In the 19th century there was intellectual and spiritual awakening in Constantinople. This awakening and enlightenment pushed the reformists to study the Bible. Under the patronage of the Armenian Patriarchate, a school was opened, headed by Krikor Peshdimaljian, one of the leading intellectuals of the time. The principal aim of this school was to train qualified clergy for the Armenian Apostolic Church.

 

The result of this awakening was the formation of a society called “Pietistical Union.” The members held meetings for the study of the Bible. Naturally, during these meetings and Bible studies, questions were raised regarding the practices and traditions of the church, which to them seemed to conflict with biblical truths. Unfortunately, the church authorities of the day decided to silence these questions by force, instead of understanding the needs of the time.

 

These reformists faced strong retaliation from the Armenian Patriarchate of Istanbul. Eventually, after Patriarch Matteos Chouhajian excommunicated the reformists, they were forced to organize themselves into a separate religious community, the Protestant Millet. This separation led to the formation of the Armenian Evangelical Church in 1846.

 

Today, there are 88 Armenian Evangelical Churches in the following countries: Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Cyprus, Egypt, England, France, Georgia, Greece, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Uruguay, and the United States of America.

 

<-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Evangelical_Church

 

The Armenian Evangelical Church started as a movement within the Mother Church (a term the Armenian Evangelicals still use). The Armenian Evangelical Church was never meant to be a separate Church. It was a reforming movement. However, unfortunately, the Catholicos of Istanbul of that time excommunicated those who called for reformation. Remember: Until before the excommunication we do not have armenian evangelical church, or armenian evangelicals. These people are armenian arakelagans and very active in their Church. Also, remember that the Mother Church had the authority to allow marriages, and to bury the dead. After excommunication, the Armenian Arakelagans who wanted reforms were denied their civil rights. From here on, the Armenian Evangelical Church is born with the help of the American Missionaries. The Reformists did not want to become one of the sects that the American Missionaries belonged to. That's why they called themselves: Հայաստանեայց Աւետարանական Եկեղեցի

 

Even today (read below), there are reformation spirits, and this time there are no American Missionaries (not to my knowledge)...

 

As for today, there are many worship gatherings of armenian arakelagans in different places/houses. If you happen to be in one of the worship gatherings, you will see that they are very similar to the armenian evangelical worship gatherings. And this time, the Armenian Catholicosate is wiser and is allowing these different gatherings to take place, without giving too much attention to them, nor casting them away as trouble-makers.

 

Another sad story that got no voice in the media (for some reason) is the issue that one of the Armenian Arakelagan Churches in Iraq faced years ago with one of the priests. The priest decided to leave, and many Church members followed the priest. Has anyone heard about this event? Is anyone from Iraq here?

 

Excommunicating the Armenian Evangelicals did not solve the problem, nor turn off the reformation spirit. On the contrary, it led to the separation of the Church (i.e. the people).

The people also have spiritual needs that they are trying to seek somewhere else, since they are not receiving their spiritual needs within the rituals. This is an issue that the Armenian Arakelagan Church priesthood has to find a solution for.

 

One solution we now know is out of question, which has proven to be devastating, is excommunication.

 

.

i'm also curious to know how close r the armenian evangelicals with the american evangelicals? i know that they share the same dogma but is there anything more than that?

the reason that i'm asking is because i've seen a couple of documentaries about evangelicals in america and i was shocked by seeing how fanatical they r! maybe those were a hardliner faction of evangelicals but if u take of all bible related stuff from that picture there were no differences between them and fundamental muslims!

 

[Johannes]

Հայաստանեայց Աւետարանական Եկեղեցի

Սիրելի Հաւատացեալ, նիւթի վերաբերեալ ըսելիք չունիմ:

Ուշքս գրաւեց վերեւի մէջբերումը, զիս յիշեցնելով նորութիւն մը, զորս նկատած եմ:

Նորութիւնը սա է. «Մեծի Տանն Կիլիկիոյ Կաթողիկէ Հայոց Կաթողիկոս-Պատրիարք» տիտղոսը, որ առաջ չէի տեսաներ, բայց այժմ կը տեսնեմ մեր թերթերուն մէջ: Ի՞նչ ունիս ասելու. խնդրեմ ըսէ:

[RemainFaithful]

Սիրելի Հաւատացեալ, նիւթի վերաբերեալ ըսելիք չունիմ:

Ուշքս գրաւեց վերեւի մէջբերումը, զիս յիշեցնելով նորութիւն մը, զորս նկատած եմ:

Նորութիւնը սա է. «Մեծի Տանն Կիլիկիոյ Կաթողիկէ Հայոց Կաթողիկոս-Պատրիարք» տիտղոսը, որ առաջ չէի տեսաներ, բայց այժմ կը տեսնեմ մեր թերթերուն մէջ: Ի՞նչ ունիս ասելու. խնդրեմ ըսէ:

 

Ես չեմ նկատած այս նորութիւնը: Եթէ կ՛ուզէք այս նիւթին վերաբերեալ ըսել մեզի թէ ի՞նչ է այս նորութեան յատկանիշը, եւ թէ առաջ ի՞նչ/ինչպէ՞ս կը գրուեր թերթերուն մէջ:

[RemainFaithful]

The title "Soviet background separates two Armenian churches in US" is somehow disturbing. I have never experienced this dichotomy. If the article below is not true, then why is it mentioned? What is the explanation of this? I thought that the 2 churches have passed their differences, and that both were legitimate and not a sect. But here comes an article that shows the opposite.

 

 

Axcess News

Thursday, 28 June 2007

 

Soviet background separates two Armenian churches in US

 

By Olesya Vartanyan

 

(AXcess News) Washington - There are two Armenian churches in the Northwestern part of the city that are a 10 minute walk from each other. But the relationship distance is farther than that.

 

Although these churches have the same religious ceremonies and books, they are led by two different Catholicoses, who are the heads of different branches - similar to archbishops - of the same Armenian Apostolic Church. Both claim to be the Armenian Apostolic Church, but since 1958 they officially have operated separately. The split occurred because of Soviet-era politics. Each says the other is also part of the church, but they don't cooperate, and at times members refused to allow their children to marry each other.

 

The churches are called the Etchmiadzin branch and the Cilicia branch by some, though neither church accepts those names officially, each calling itself Armenian Apostolic. The two names come from Armenian geographic areas. Cilicia is now part of Turkey.

 

About 1 million Armenians live in the U.S., according to the Armenian Embassy. A third of them are in one church, and another third are in the other, according to these churches. The rest don't usually go to these churches.

 

The division of the Armenian Apostolic Church in the U.S. began after the Revolution of Bolsheviks in the former Soviet Union in 1917. One part of the Armenian Church claimed it want to be separate from the head, whose seat was in Etchmiadzin, Armenia. Armenia was then a Soviet republic, and some Armenians in the U.S. thought Moscow tried to use the Armenian Church to promote Communists' ideas outside the country.

 

In Armenian Apostolic Churches all over the U.S., priests from the different churches sometimes didn't talk to each other.

 

"First time [after the division], Armenian families usually didn't let men from one church to marry ladies from another church. But then the situation improved," said a priest from the Etchmiadzin branch's St. Mary Church in Washington, the Rev. Father Vertanes Kalayjian.

 

An Armenian man, Daron Bolat, 29, who runs an Armenian youth organization, is not married but he said it wouldn't matter to him if his wife came from another church. He said 15 years ago it was sometimes a problem for local Armenians if a fiancee was from one church and a fiance from the other.

 

"I know some stories when family didn't talk to their girl because she married to a boy from another church," Bolat said.

 

All his family attends the Etchmiadzin branch's church in Washington. He has never been in the neighbor Cilicia branch's church, as he is "always on Sunday services in my church," he said.

 

"I don't think they are bad. I don't have anything against them," Bolat said.

 

Since the collapse of the USSR, there is no longer any suspicion about political alienation of the Etchmiadzin Church toward Communists. But the churches don't seem to be in a hurry to reunite.

 

An expert in political issues, Gevorg Melikyan, who is a vice-president of a nonprofit organization, "National Spiritual Security" in Yerevan, Armenia, said in an e-mail that politics is the main reason the churches haven't gotten back together.

 

The idea of a separation of two churches was promoted by the Armenian Revolutionary Party also known as Dashnaktsutun. This social-democratic party ruled Armenia for about a year in 1920s before the Soviet Bolsheviks occupied the country. Some of ARP's rulers immigrated to the U.S. and tried to struggle against Communists from

here.

 

Members of this party once were not allowed to attend Etchmiadzin branch churches in U.S. It became one of the reasons ARP began to discourage people from attending these churches and for bringing the Cilicia church's representatives here from Lebanon. It became a scandal inside the Armenian community.

 

"Once, they came to one of our services and were pretending they were coming to the priest to kiss the cross. They came, surrounded the priest and killed him with knives during the service," Kalayjian said.

 

He still believes ARP has an influence on the Cilicia Church.

 

"If there were not Dashnaks, we would unite," he said.

 

Kalayjian represents a common point of view in the Armenian Community. Some of them think that ARP has an interest in a separate Cilicia Church to preserve its influence among Armenians.

 

ARP is one of the influential political parties in the Armenian Parliament today. But some experts say that ARP's main force is in the Armenian Diaspora, which includes about 6 million people around the world, according to the official statistics of Armenian government.

 

The executive director of the American National Committee of Armenia, which is the U.S. East Cost representative of ARP, Jirayr Beugekian said there was a stereotype of their interest of having Armenian churches apart.

 

"We have a long history in cooperating with the Cilicia Church. And with the Etchmiadzin Church, we began work not a long time ago. So sometimes people say we work more with Cilicia church, but for us they both are the same as long as there is no Soviet regime any more," Beugekian said.

 

"There is no political solution to this problem. The religious Churches should agree with each other," he said.

 

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, a new government of an independent Armenia tried to support the unification of two Armenian churches. But until now, these Churches have only official relations.

 

A priest of Cilicia branch's St. Cross Church a few blocks outside Washington in Maryland, the Rev. Father Sarkis Aktavoukian said he had some personal contacts with people from the other church. But he said that there were some people in the Etchmiadzin branch who offended him personally when they sometimes said that "we are a sect."

 

"I know that our heads are talking about unification. But there are some details in their disputes that we don't know," Aktavoukian said.

 

In the U.S., two public commissions were formed to discuss possible reunion of churches. John Jerikyan of Washington participated in both. He said there was no possibility to settle this dispute as "some sides didn't want to unite." He said that, besides background problems, some people have personal reasons for not uniting.

 

"It's a financial dispute. You lose control, you lose money if they are together," Jerikyan said.

 

Jerikyan, 67, is a salesman who attends Cilicia branch St. Cross Church. All his family is in this church. Jerikyan said a priest from another church is his good friend.

 

"I don't want it to be as it is now. Who wins? Nobody wins! I wish to have a united church to bring there my grandchildren, " Jerikyan said.

 

But Kalayjian, the priest from the neighboring Etchmiadzin branch's Church, said that the unification will not happen in a short period.

 

"There should be a very strong person to unite these two Churches. Now we don't have such a man," he said.

 

Source: Scripps Howard Foundation Wire

 

http://www.axcessne ws.com/index. php/articles/ show/id/11419

[Johannes]

Ես չեմ նկատած այս նորութիւնը: Եթէ կ՛ուզէք այս նիւթին վերաբերեալ ըսել մեզի թէ ի՞նչ է այս նորութեան յատկանիշը, եւ թէ առաջ ի՞նչ/ինչպէ՞ս կը գրուեր թերթերուն մէջ:

Նախապէս կը գրուէր. «Կաթողիկէ Հայոց Պատրիարք»

 

Այժմ կը գրուի .«Մեծի տանն Կիլիկիոյ Կաթողիկէ Հայոց Կաթողիկոս-Պատրիարք»

Edited July 4, 2007 by Johannes

[annannimusss]

It is funny how correct the article is. If the Church Unites the Tashnags will lose a lot of power. In Fresno the ARF Branch tried to take the deed of the Church, and when the Hysoorp said no they in a sense kicked him out.