Minorities In Armenia

[ED]

Vigil how is this your thread ? Just wondering.

 

Anyhow, first and foremost keep in mind as long us debate, discussions are made in a civil manner I'll let it be your "own thread" I PM'd Arpa due to respect I have for him, I totally agree with him basically, and I want to talk about Armenians.

 

You know ideas, solutions, sometime come from unexpected places and sources, however I see very disturbing pattern among many of my fellow Armenians that is when another ethnic group is put down for our own shortcomings, example? Just go thru your thread. Time spent on bashing and talking about them, don’t you agree we can talk about at list what do we have to do as generation for lasting of our homeland and if I remember correctly you are the one who always bring up those issue, Jew, black, Semitic etc.......my friend, how are those arguments going to contribute to tomorrows prosperous Armenia? Building a healthy society we need to establish the foundation based on the good values we have and this is an essential element of a healthy Nation.

[Vigil]

Thank you Vigil for your friendly advice.

But if you want to speak about those damn people I may suggest that you move your thread from HYEFORUM to HryaForum.

Remember? This is a forum for HYES, not for HRYAS.

 

DAMN IT!!!

Arpa, my statement was not made towards you. Furthermore, I would love to hear your elaboration, thanks.

 

Lastly, Sasun, I do not consider the Yevries a minority and or anything worth preserving.

[Vigil]

Vigil how is this your thread ? Just wondering.

 

I started the thread.

 

You know ideas, solutions, sometime come from unexpected places and sources, however I see very disturbing pattern among many of my fellow Armenians that is when another ethnic group is put down for our own shortcomings, example? Just go thru your thread. Time spent on bashing and talking about them, don’t you agree we can talk about at list what do we have to do as generation for lasting of our homeland and if I remember correctly you are the one who always bring up those issue, Jew, black, Semitic etc.......my friend, how are those arguments going to contribute to tomorrows prosperous Armenia? Building a healthy society we need to establish the foundation based on the good values we have and this is an essential element of a healthy Nation.

 

Ed, you are right and I agree, but I was not trying to "bash" anyone, rather, I am just letting it known that I do not consider a certain group a minority because of the fact that they have a flavor for every day of the week. Anyways, I do not want to further derail the thread so let us just focus on the subject matter, sorry.

[Sasun]

Lastly, Sasun, I do not consider the Yevries a minority

This topic does not interest me at all, just wanted to say that doesn't make sense, they are a minority by all standards. All that is needed for a minority is at least one Jew living in Armenia, and a number not more than Armenians.

 

and or anything worth preserving.

 

Dont worry, they can preserve themselves.

[Vigil]

This topic does not interest me at all, just wanted to say that doesn't make sense, they are a minority by all standards. All that is needed for a minority is at least one Jew living in Armenia, and a number not more than Armenians.

 

Sasun, sorry I may have confused you. I consider the ma "minorty", but I do not think they deserve any attention as opposed to the other minorities because the "other ones" are a more intricute part of our country.

[Arpa]

Here it is, as promised. And I hope this will put an end to all discussions about Jewish-Armenian relationships. A matter of fact is, there are Jews and there are Armenians, and they have existed as a distinct ethnos longer than most other people. Did these two peoples know one another or about each other during antiquities? Probably. Even though the land of the Jews and that of the Armenians have always been separated by several other lands and people, one can be sure to assume that those two pwoples did meet at times, certainly some Armenian travelers and merchants traveled as far as Judea just as some Jewish travelers reached the Armenian Highlands, hence the extremely meager mention of Ararat in the Bible. Is there any more mention of Armenia in Jewish histriography? I don't know. Probably not. As an aside, we constantly hammer on the Jewish origins of the Bagratunis. Has anyone seen this corroborated in Jewish histriography? Many of us may choose to point to our histriography and our histriograhers, the likes of Khorenatsi and Paustos Buzant. However we fail to see that none of these and other historians were actual eyewitnesses , they were all chronclres and recorders of popular and unscientific oral history. What's wrong with that, we would ask? Remember that these "historians" did not kive during the so-called flood and neither did they live during the Tigranian conquests. They lived several hundred years after, specifically, during a period after WE had discovered a "new and improved" faith, so much so that our entire culture and legacy was refashioned and retrofitted to coincide with that of the "chosen people". It is when the ancestry of Haik was corrupted to coincide with that of Abraham. It is when just to find an excuse for our existence, EXCUUUUSE MEEEE! for being so bold to BE and exist without the explicit permission of the "chosen people", since they ahve the God given gift to decide who can exist. As to the Jewish comminity in presnt Armenia, a mere couple of hundreds at best . Is it larger than, say, the diplomatic corps of the US Embassy? Why don't we speak about those other minorities as the diplomatic corps of US and Iran? Certainly they outnumber the Jews of Yerevan.

How did all this happen? Remember that all of our historians were in the service of the Church, Including Michael Chamich from whose work I will be quoting.

This is in no way a complete list of how many times he refers and mentions the Jew. I should have marked all the passages. As mentioned before, I find his work, otherwise precuious, hilarious and amusing so much so that at times I LOL .

 

In the edition that I have, translated ( in somewhat funny English) by Johannes Avdall of Culcatta, we see this in the Preface; The Haican power thus happily established by Haic, was carried to the highest pitch of gloty by his wise and powerful, successors, who distinguished themselves by prudence and valour in the wars which they engaged with the Syeians, the Medes, the Jews and....

Does any Jewish source mantion having been in war with the Haicans?

On page 5 we see this; Haicus in search of a place of abode for his extended family..

Those people spoke the language of their ancestor Noah, but they had for a long time been almost entirely secluded from civilized intercourse with their fellor creatures..

What ??!!

On page 19 we see;

Mishak, the governor of Cappadocia, who is called Moshok by Greek historians founded about this epoch a city in that country znd surrounded it with stone walls. He called it Mishak , after himself; but the Cappadicians, unable to pronounce it correctly, called it Majak. The name was subsequently changed to Caesaria or Gaysarey.

This is, once again, in reference to the Biblical story Shatrak, Mishak and Abetnakau. It is true that original Armenian name of Kesaria was Mazhak, a corruption of Mshak(an Armenian word to mean farmer).

 

Get a hold of the map of the Armenian Empire of Tigran II and see how far south he invaded..

The ones I have seen take him down a far as Damascus and a wedge on the same lattitude, no further south of Tyre (the modern Lebanese town of Sour) and Ptolemais (the modern town of Accho or Acra) .Note that Tigran never went as far as the heart of Jew-land. So, where did all these Jews come from? Were they Syrians, Phoenician,. Arameans, and anyone south of the border who were labeled as Jews once we discovered, through the Bible that there was a people known as such?

On page 77 we read;

The Jews in Palestine fearing some hostile intention towards them, from the army collected by Tigranes, their queen Alexandra Selana, with princes of her country, sent ambassadors to him while Ptolemais, deprecating his anger and offering him valuable presents. They besought him to look with an eye of kindness on their nation, and desist from all intention of injuring them. Tigranes was pleased with the embassy and promised to regard the Jews as his friends. The Bagratians were under the greatest apprehension that some injury was meditated against them, but their fear was groundless...

Whio is queen Alexandra Selana? Does she appear in any other record? Do the Jews mention her? Or, for that matter, has anyone seen Bagrat mentioned in any Jewish histriography?

As mentioned above, when Armenians discovered that newfangled cult of Jehovah, and trashed all the native cults of Aramazt and Anahit , having lost all, a mere legitimate cause for their EXISTENCE had to tie with the new definition of mankind and the RIGHT to EXIST, or simply to BE.

I hope this makes sense, that ever since we acceded to the fact that they speak in the name of God/Jehovah that we can invade Iraq simply because it poses a threat to Jehovah's (read Jew-hova) Land.

[Vigil]

Thank you Arpa for your explaination.

 

As mentioned above, when Armenians discovered that newfangled cult of Jehovah, and trashed all the native cults of Aramazt and Anahit , having lost all, a mere legitimate cause for their EXISTENCE had to tie with the new definition of mankind and the RIGHT to EXIST, or simply to BE.

 

I still do not understand what compelled them to destroy the monuments and build over them? What was the reasoning behind it? Does anyone know? Would be a good new thread, so, lets not derail this one, well let us not derail this one anymore.

Edited August 10, 2004 by Vigil

[groul]

Vigil,

 

It says there are Armenian of Polish and German descent living in Armenia due German colonies? Is this true?

I do not know any Armenian of German or Polish descent, but Germans who owned farms/land in Armenia are mentioned in some sources of late 19th / early 20th century. Probably those are the Germans that had lived in Russia (there was a huge German colony in Russia before the revolution) then moved to Armenia.

 

It is strange how all the minorities have found Armenia a safe haven, which leads me to assume Armenia has been a safe haven for non-Armenians as much as it has been for Armenians.

 

This is not true. Eastern Armenia was never a safe place for ANY nationality. Not because the Armenians were tough (actually, when for example molokans were expelled from Russia to Caucasus there weren't much Armenians left in Eastern Armenia as far as I know), but because of endless wars. Do not forget that at some point Armenians too were a minority in Eastern Armenia.

 

Arpa

yada yada ... Have you looked in the mirror to see if your below the belt anatomy is intact or is it missing a part? ... yada yada

The purpose of your post was to insult me. I expect an apology.

 

Vigil

Anyways, since this is my thread I would appreciate it if you do not post anything about yevries, thanks in advance.

The name of the topic is "Minorities in Armenia" and the Jews are one of those minorities.

 

Moreover as I can assume from your writings you all hardly have any idea of what is going on between Armenians and Jews in Armenia now, and how was the situation e.g. 50 or 60 years ago. However if you prefer to cook in your own juice I have no intention to bother you. Enjoy yourself.

 

Please just mention what I am allowed to say at this forum to avoid any further misunderstanding, because I have much more interesting things to do than to spend my time on stupid "lezvakrivner".

[Sasun]

Please just mention what I am allowed to say at this forum to avoid any further misunderstanding, because I have much more interesting things to do than to spend my time on stupid "lezvakrivner".

As long as you don't break the forum Code of Conduct you are allowed to post anything that interests you. I don't think you have posted anything wrong, so no worries.

 

P.S. Ignore self-appointed authorities' remarks

Edited August 11, 2004 by Sasun

[Vigil]

Moreover as I can assume from your writings you all hardly have any idea of what is going on between Armenians and Jews in Armenia now, and how was the situation e.g. 50 or 60 years ago. However if you prefer to cook in your own juice I have no intention to bother you. Enjoy yourself.

 

What is going on between Jews and Armenians? Jews are converting Armenians into Jews and using Armenian men and women to increase the Jewish population. If you want to blind to this fact then so be it, but do not state any asinine comments like the one above.

 

No, I do not consider Jews any important and or intricate part of Armenia, so, do not post anything on it. This is about "minorities" not zionist leeches, cheers.

Edited August 11, 2004 by Vigil

[Vigil]

P.S. Ignore self-appointed authorities' remarks

 

Who would this be?

[Vigil]

Groul, are you Yevry?

[groul]

Groul, are you Yevry?

Nope. Want me to take you for an excursion into a genealogy of Melik-Vrtanesyans?

 

On the other hand, my answer is almost as stupid, as your question.

[groul]

 

Look at your posts, Vigil:

 

... Jews ... do not post anything on it

 

and the one after the next:

 

Groul, are you Yevry?

 

Whose turn is it to stop?

[Sasun]

Who would this be?

This question is fit to ask Sherlock Holms But you are one of the suspects

 

BTW, your pork isn't working too well, could it be a kosher type?

[Arpa]

Arpa

 

QUOTE 

yada yada ... Have you looked in the mirror to see if your below the belt anatomy is intact or is it missing a part? ... yada yada 

 

 

The purpose of your post was to insult me. I expect an apology.

 

I was hoping that this subject would have been closed by now, I am still hoping.

It is against my habit to revisit a subject day in and day out, however it seems like I need to clarify something. I do apologize for having hurt you even if it was not intended as an insult. You do remember that on that same day there was another post "Drop your pants", and my comments about Turks examining the dead to determine their religion to make sure they were Kurds and not Armenians fighting on the Kurdish side.

I'm sorry to repeat this, but I find it highly primitive when in this day and age some people keep their religious beliefs in their underwear.

 

Coming back to this subject having been nauseatingly incessant, I just conducted a search on this forum using the keyword "Jewish" and 26 pages popped up. That interprets in thousands of mention. Why? What is it about the sbject that brings people out of the woodwork? Why the Jew? We hardly get any response to words like Russian or Syrian. Remember that Armenians and Syrians have been neighbors for many thousands of years. So have the Russians. What it is that we owe the Jews or they owe us? On the one hand we seem to admire and love them then we turn around and swear at them at the slightest provocation, as when they don't help us in certain issues. I have asked this question many time and yet I have not seen any logical answer.

Let me ask again.

What is it that we owe them or they owe us?

 

Now an off topic. The olympics is only two days away we still don't know if there will be an Armenian team beside side stories about Kocharian attending the games and the PM addressing the team. Speaking about speaking about ourselves, let us speak about ourselves and if there nothing about us then let's shut this forum down and join a HryaForum.

[ED]

Now an off topic. The olympics is only two days away we still don't know if there will be an Armenian team beside side stories about Kocharian attending the games and the PM addressing the team. Speaking about speaking about ourselves, let us speak about ourselves and if there nothing about us then let's shut this forum down and join a HryaForum.

Arpa frankly speaking I'm bit dissipointed at you , by now I was hoping you would have found out that list ay ay ay Arpa