Honorable Mention

[Vigil]

Tillman killed in Afghanistan

 

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former NFL player Pat Tillman was killed Thursday while serving as an Army Rangers soldier on a mission in southeastern Afghanistan, Pentagon officials have told CNN. He was 27.

 

Pentagon sources confirmed that a soldier killed during an ambush on a coalition combat patrol, reported in a U.S. Central Command release, was Tillman.

 

The incident took place at 7:30 p.m. local time Thursday near the village of Sperah, 40 kilometers southwest of Khowst.

 

"The enemy action was immediately responded to by the coalition patrol with direct fire and a firefight ensued," the release said. "During the engagement, one coalition soldier was killed and two wounded."

 

It also said an Afghan Militia Force soldier was killed and that "the enemy broke contact during the engagement."

 

Tillman, who walked away from a $3.6 million contract as a safety with the Arizona Cardinals to join the military after the Sept. 11 attacks, was in an area where numerous U.S. troops have been killed in battles with suspected al Qaeda and Taliban fighters.

 

Tillman was a sergeant and member of the 75th Ranger Regiment, a light infantry unit out of Fort Benning, Ga. The White House put out a statement of sympathy that praised Tillman as "an inspiration both on an off the football field."

 

Former Cardinals head coach Dave McGinnis said he felt both overwhelming sorrow and tremendous pride in Tillman, who "represented all that was good in sports."

 

"Pat knew his purpose in life," McGinnis said. "He proudly walked away from a career in football to a greater calling."

 

Several of Tillman's friends have said the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks influenced his decision to enlist.

 

"In sports we have a tendency to overuse terms like courage and bravery and heroes," said Cardinals vice president Michael Bidwill, son of the team's owner Bill Bidwill, "and then someone like Pat Tillman comes along and reminds us what those terms really mean."

 

A memorial was set up outside Cardinals' headquarters in Tempe, Ariz., with Tillman's No. 40 uniform in a glass frame alongside two teddy bears and two bouquets. A pen was left for people to write messages to Tillman's family.

 

Gov. Janet Napolitano ordered flags at Arizona State University, Tillman's alma mater, flown at half-staff.

 

"Pat Tillman personified all the best values of his country and the NFL," commissioner Paul Tagliabue said in a statement. "He was an achiever and leader on many levels who always put his team, his community, and his country ahead of his personal interests."

 

Tillman was the first NFL player killed in combat since Buffalo offensive tackle Bob Kalsu died in the Vietnam War in July 1970. Nineteen NFL players were killed in World War II.

 

Former teammate Pete Kendall, the Cardinals' starting center, said Tillman's death was a jolt of the reality regarding the nation's fight in the Middle East.

 

"The loss of Pat brings it home," Kendall said. "Everyday there are countless families having to get the same news."

 

Kendall remembered going out with Tillman and his future wife, Marie.

 

"We had a meal and a couple of beers," Kendall said. "It was a nice night. I really looked forward to buying him another beer sometime down the road."

 

Several members of Arizona's congressional delegation released statements on Tillman's death. Arizona Sen. John McCain noted that Tillman declined to speak publicly about his decision to put his NFL career on hold.

 

"I am heartbroken today by the news of Pat Tillman's death, " Sen. McCain said. "The tragic loss of this extraordinary young man will seem a heavy blow to our nation's morale, as it is surely a grievous injury to his loved ones."

 

Sen. John Kyl released a statement calling Tillman "a great American hero in the truest sense. He had already given up so much, including an incredible football career and loving family, to fight for his country in the war on terrorism. His patriotism and courage are an inspiration and we are grateful for his ultimate sacrifice."

 

Rep. Jeff Flake said, "Pat Tillman exemplified the sacrifice, selflessness, and service of the U.S. military. Nowadays, genuine role models in professional sports are few and far between, but Tillman proved that there are still heroes in sports."

 

Tillman played four seasons with the Cardinals before enlisting in the Army in May 2002. He made the decision after returning from his honeymoon with his wife, Marie. In a 2002 story, Tillman told Sports Illustrated that he planned to return to the NFL in three years.

 

"He knew what was important to him, and he made his decision and stood by it," said quarterback Eli Manning, expected to be a top pick in Saturday's NFL Draft.

 

I am heartbroken today by the news of Pat Tillman's death. The tragic loss of this extraordinary young man will seem a heavy blow to our nation's morale, as it is surely a grievous injury to his loved ones.

 

Sen. John McCain

 

 

 

 

Tillman's brother, Kevin, a former minor league baseball prospect in the Cleveland Indians' organization, also joined the Rangers and served in the Middle East. They committed to three-year stints in the Army.

 

Some 110 U.S. soldiers have died -- 39 of them in combat -- during Operation Enduring Freedom, which began in Afghanistan in late 2001.

 

Tillman's agent, Frank Bauer, has called him a deep and clear thinker who has never valued material things.

 

In 2001, Tillman turned down a $9 million, five-year offer sheet from the Super Bowl champion St. Louis Rams out of loyalty to the Cardinals, and by joining the Army, he passed on millions more from the team.

 

Tillman turned aside interview requests after joining the Army. In December, during a trip home, he made a surprise visit to his Cardinal teammates.

 

"For all the respect and love that all of us have for Pat Tillman and his brother and Marie, for what they did and the sacrifices they made ... believe me, if you have a chance to sit down and talk with them, that respect and that love and admiration increase tenfold," Coach Dave McGinnis said at the time. "It was a really, really enriching evening."

 

It was not immediately clear when Tillman went to Afghanistan.

 

Denver quarterback Jake Plummer was a teammate of Tillman for seven years, three at Arizona State and four with the Cardinals.

 

"We lost a unique individual that touched the lives of many with his love for life, his toughness, his intellect," Plummer said in a statement released by the Broncos. "Pat Tillman lived life to the fullest and will be remembered forever in my heart and mind."

 

In college, Tillman was a long-haired wild man on the field, an all-Pac-10 linebacker always going full speed. Bone-jarring hits were his trademark.

 

He and Plummer led the Sun Devils to the 1997 Rose Bowl. The next season, Tillman was the Pac-10 defensive player of the year. He graduated summa cum laude in December 1997 with a marketing degree and a 3.84 grade-point average.

 

The Cardinals took Tillman in the seventh round of the 1998 draft, the 226th player chosen. At first, he made his mark on special teams but played his way into a starting spot at safety.

 

In 2000, he broke the franchise record for tackles with 223. He had 12 solo tackles, and a hand in 21 overall, in a 16-15 victory over Washington that season.

 

In practice, coaches often had to make Tillman slow down so he wouldn't hurt anybody in drills that weren't supposed to be full speed. Slowing down was always tough for him.

 

Before the 2000 season, he ran a marathon to see what it would be like. Before the 2001 season, he gave the triathlon a try.

 

"You don't find guys that have that combination of being as bright and as tough as him," Phil Snow, who coached Tillman as Arizona State's defensive coordinator, said in 2002. "This guy could go live in a foxhole for a year by himself with no food."

 

Tillman and his brother Kevin last year won the Arthur Ashe Courage award at the 11th annual ESPY Awards.

 

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Sip]

Tillman, a former safety with the Cardinals, had turned down a three-year, $3.6 million offer from Arizona and instead joined the elite Army Rangers in May 2002, never uttering a word of explanation publicly.

 

What a waste ... one can't stop but to wonder now whether he could have served his country better by staying in the NFL and donating the $3.6 mil to feed the hungry or fight cancer or something.

[Accelerated]

erm...wouldnt someone else be getting the 3.6 mill, or something in that vicinity?

[Vigil]

What a waste ... one can't stop but to wonder now whether he could have served his country better by staying in the NFL and donating the $3.6 mil to feed the hungry or fight cancer or something.

 

So you think by spreading money around the world it will make it into a better place? What good is funding the research in cancer if you have doctors that are not WILLING to give their life trying to find the cure and thus, what good is all the military might this country funds to protect its citizens if they are not willing to die in order to maintain it.

 

I would like to make somthing clear I may not like the methods America implements in order to sustain it self, nevertheless, you as a "born again American" should understand that the very blanket of democracy, which this country provides, comes from soldiers like Pat Tillman.

 

With this being said you should wake up and stop thinking like a idealist. Everything in this country, that citizens like me and you use, comes with a price tag and somtimes the cost is our humanity like in the case of the deniel of the Armenian Genocide. Some "extremist", which is the label given to people like me, understand this and at least realize that what ever commodity we take for granted has been paid for by blood. In this case the cost was a the life of a VERY passionate American in other cases its the exploitation of developing nations. Reguardless at the very end somone has to "eat shit" in order for Americans to sustain the illusion of abundence.

 

Keep that in mind when ever you think everything in not just American, but the "western world", is owed to you because in actuallity it is a previlage and does not come cheap.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Sip]

I would like to make somthing clear I may not like the methods America implements in order to sustain it self, nevertheless, you as a "born again American" should understand that the very blanket of democracy, which this country provides, comes from soldiers like Pat Tillman.

Yes yes ... we need him on that wall ... we want him on that wall ...

 

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/afewgoodmenjack2.JPG

 

... "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand the post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!"

 

The point I was trying to make is that here we have someone who is able to generate $3.5 mil in 3 years. Surely he could have done a lot more for his country with that kind of money. What's my point? My point is not every life is equally valuable. Some are more valuable than others. I fully realize I am going to get flamed for this but never the less, it doesn't change the fact that that's how I think it is.

 

You don't send your best and the brightest to the front lines. That's just poor strategy. You use your resources wisely. Otherwise, there is really no difference between Tilman and the idiot muslim youngsters that charge a mine field on a dirt bike screaming Allaho Akbar, "defusing" 4 or 5 mines until the 6th one brings them to the ground and just that much closer to their Allah. http://armenians.com/forum/style_images/1/icon8.gif

[Sip]

So you think by spreading money around the world it will make it into a better place?

OF COURSE it will make it a better place... but not just random and blind spreading .... no actually very calculated and intelligent resource management. However, by no means am I advocating socialism here.

 

But for example, spending $3.5 million on developing ultra-efficient engines will be much much much more beneficial to the world than spending $3.5 million in pretecting current oil interests of billionaire fat cats.

 

There are some plans that are farther looking than others. Guess which ones are better for the world?

[Sip]

By the way, to me, "passionate" and "extremist" are synonymous with "irrational" and "stupid".

[Accelerated]

But for example, spending $3.5 million on developing ultra-efficient engines will be much much much more beneficial to the world than spending $3.5 million in pretecting current oil interests of billionaire fat cats.

 

Sip, do I sense an admission that these wars are indeed mainly waged because of oil-interests?

[Sip]

That was an example. I don't think Afghanistan (where Tilman was killed) was started due to oil interests.

 

The fact that Iraq has been on top of the US "worry" list is certainly oil related as there are other countries with WMD (N. Korea? not to mention Pakistan, India, etc) that haven't received as much attention. It doesn't change the fact that Iraq was and had been a significant threat but there is really no denying that geography certainly impacted the escalation of the situation.

 

I have always maintained that I thought US was very justified to move into Iraq. Not due to "terrorism" or "9/11" or whatever other dumbass reason George Dumbass Bush came up with in his sleep ... but because of all the other reasons that we have discussed countless times in other threads.

 

My argument here is also not regarding whether a soldier should die for his country or not. It's just against the point Vigil is trying to raise that even a doctor doing cancer research should go to the front lines in Afghanistan with an M16 which is just down right "simple minded" to say it politely (he calls it passionate extremist or something).

[Vigil]

The point I was trying to make is that here we have someone who is able to generate $3.5 mil in 3 years. Surely he could have done a lot more for his country with that kind of money.

 

Did you not state that "donating the $3.6 mil to feed the hungry or fight cancer or something" and did I not state that by using your logic it would be useless to hand $3.6 million to a doctor that is not willing to dedicate his LIFE to his field? Yes, I did and Yes, it would be useless, so, why would it be useless you ask? It would be useless because if the researcher is not "PASSIONATE" than any amount of funding would not progress the research because frankly the doctor would not "give a rats a$$".

 

Now, you are wondering why I would bring this up, which is too only disprove your notion that anyone who is passionate about a cause should be labeled as a "waste" because they are giving up their life, but rather you fail to realize that this very act of devotion is what has generated the worlds most significant individuals like Gondhi, Einstein, and countless others.

 

If these saviors of humanity were to think that their life was more important than their work I do not think they would actually be the important historical figures that the world has come to respect. This goes back to the the whole thread about how "things are inevitable" and the "sloth like mentality" so any more on this issue would just come back full circle, but I just wanted to clerify that.

 

What's my point? My point is not every life is equally valuable. Some are more valuable than others. I fully realize I am going to get flamed for this but never the less, it doesn't change the fact that that's how I think it is.

 

Yes, you are going to get flamed, but not by me because I am not a flamer. So by your logic than because the "western world" is not acknowledging the Genocide of 1.5 million Armenians, we are less important than 6.5 million Jews? I assume this is the case because by using your standards we can only presume that the Armenian loss of life is not significant enough to be recorded in history, but yet Jewish loss is, when in fact we both know that this is not case. Nobody in the world has a right to state what life is a casuality and what life is not because all loss of life is tragic and for you to say that goes against the whole motive behind your argument.

 

Using your logic than I could state that if tomorrow you were to pass away your community should not mourn the loss of life because we sure as hell know that you are basically "useless" on the world stage or are not significant enough? A life lost is a still a life lost reguardless and for you to state that another individual has the right to judge how important somone's life really is actually the anti-thesis of your argument because if life was not meant to be save why spend money to research cancer right? Wrong, again you become inconsistent in your logic.

 

You don't send your best and the brightest to the front lines. That's just poor strategy. You use your resources wisely. Otherwise, there is really no difference between Tilman and the idiot muslim youngsters that charge a mine field on a dirt bike screaming Allaho Akbar, "defusing" 4 or 5 mines until the 6th one brings them to the ground and just that much closer to their Allah.

 

First of all this person was patriotic, somthing that you know nothing about because if you knew what being a patriot is you would not have stated your original comment. However, yes, I agree their is no difference in the amount of patriotism involved because both are sacrificing their lives for a cause, which is important to them, but nevertheless, for you to actually have the nerve to critize somone that is giving his or her life so that you can live comfertably is in my opinion hypocritical due to the fact that he died defending the liberties that you also live under.

 

Instead you should be "proud" that the flag you live under has men and woman that are willing to die for your security, when in fact you would not do the same.

 

OF COURSE it will make it a better place... but not just random and blind spreading .... no actually very calculated and intelligent resource management. However, by no means am I advocating socialism here.

 

I do not think you understand socialism nor have ever read anything by Karl Marx or Engles. if you did maybe you would understand why democracy and capitalism are bound to collide because at some point in the near future, which is currently the present, the interests of the top 10% certainly do not go hand in hand with the rest of 90% and eventually one side will control the other.

 

How ever much "intellegent and calculated" you are in deciding who would receive funding you would still not see the same results if you were actually leading the cause. I am sure if Gondhi paid somone to "stand up for what he believes in" his movement would not get anywhere. So paying people to clean up the mess at the very least is a noble effort, nevertheless, it is not the same if you actually as a individual were at the forefront. I am sure Patrick Tillman could have hired "mercenaries" to fight on his behalf, but would these "solders of fortune" actually be willing to die for Tillman's country? No, they would not, so, spreading money around is only a noble gesture, but by no means is it a satisfactory substitute of the drive and motivation behind an individuals own effort.

 

But for example, spending $3.5 million on developing ultra-efficient engines will be much much much more beneficial to the world than spending $3.5 million in pretecting current oil interests of billionaire fat cats.

 

Believe me PASSIONATE physicist are already 10 steps ahead of you and if it was their budget that was hindering them from coming up with a more efficent alternate fuel source than I would think they would already have found one due to the fact that America spends billions of dollars yearly on energy research and development. So, again your argument is inconsistent because the example you use is not dependent on the financial variable.

 

There are some plans that are farther looking than others. Guess which ones are better for the world?

 

I do not guess and I sure as hell do not bash others for giving their lives up for my safty and previlages. The only plan that you have suggested is that more money solves problems, which in fact is the short sighted view in the thread.

 

By the way, to me, "passionate" and "extremist" are synonymous with "irrational" and "stupid".

 

By the way I think your stupid too, but is it right for me to use that against you? Your basically calling me "toxic dum dum". I guess you did not read my previous posts, but maybe if you did you would have some class or at least not break the most important rule in a debate. However, I think I have addressed this issue already a couple paragraphs up, so, it would be redundent for me to expalin myself again.

 

That was an example. I don't think Afghanistan (where Tilman was killed) was started due to oil interests.

 

It was not started "due to oil interest", nevertheless, it was for a reason that may not be obvious to you. Oh, yeah, you know their is this guy by the name of "Osama Bin Ladin" and he is a really "bad man". In fact I think he is the one behind the 911 incident that everyone is not talking about.

 

Again Patrick Tillman was prividing you with the security and stablity that you enjoy everyday of your life, so, your whole argument of how his life was wasted can be thrown out the window at this point.

 

The fact that Iraq has been on top of the US "worry" list is certainly oil related as there are other countries with WMD (N. Korea? not to mention Pakistan, India, etc) that haven't received as much attention. It doesn't change the fact that Iraq was and had been a significant threat but there is really no denying that geography certainly impacted the escalation of the situation.

 

When did I bring geopolitics of Iraq into the thread? All I stated is that the oil that they take from the people of developing nations is used by Americans like yourself, so, it does cost somthing it is just you do not end up paying it. Everything you eat, drink, and use in this country ends up costing somone somthing reguardless if they are a soldiers defending you or exploited foriegners.

 

At the very extreme end you can state that intangible commodities like humanity are also traded for certain previlages like in the case of the Armenian genocide. Basically, not to be cold hearted or rude, but the price to for Americans to use Turkey as a transportion hub for military and commercial projects was the denial of the perpretration of the genocide. So, you can state that even Armenians that are currently living in states do enjoy this right even if it costed them the blood of their own kin, but unlike them I am not a idealist and understand this.

 

I have always maintained that I thought US was very justified to move into Iraq. Not due to "terrorism" or "9/11" or whatever other dumbass reason George Dumbass Bush came up with in his sleep ... but because of all the other reasons that we have discussed countless times in other threads.

 

I would agree with you if this was the first ever invasion of Iraq and most importantly if we did not actually put this man in power in the first place. Isn't it strange that 10 years ago the only justification to invade Iraq was because they were threatening our oil reserves in Kuwait? While, the second time they aired a 15 year old tape of the Kurdish gasings, which is about 15 years too late. Wasn't Bush Senior "best buds" with Saddom in the 70's and 80's and was he not the same head director of the CIA that sold the weapons of mass destruction that Saddom used against the Iranians? Yes, he was, and also was the same person involved in training Osama Bin Ladin against the Russians during their attempted invasion of Afghanistan. Incidently both these inviduals turned on Americans and the only people that got felt the lose was not the Bush family, but innocent Americans. So, you see for you to prematurly state that the "war was a good thing", when it could have all together been avoided, is very short sighted.

 

My argument here is also not regarding whether a soldier should die for his country or not. It's just against the point Vigil is trying to raise that even a doctor doing cancer research should go to the front lines in Afghanistan with an M16 which is just down right "simple minded" to say it politely (he calls it passionate extremist or something).

 

I never said that and do not put words in my mouth. All I stated is that if you enjoy any freedom or luxory you better dam well be willing to die for it or at the very least admit that it does have its price, which in this case is the blood of a American patriot.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Sip]

Vigil, stop being so unpatriotic and start respecting the US flag a bit. You are a disgrace to the US and the blankets that it provides. How dare you assume that a doctor that is not going to the front lines is not going to do everything in his powers to work towards finding a cure for cancer or help his patients?

 

Ok see how stupid that sounded? Now read your post and you realize you sound the same. You wrote more than a page of "stuff" using words like "according to you logic" and "logically" and full of assumptions about me that are completely untrue.

 

Stop preaching ...

 

You extending "my logic" to conclude something about Armenian genocide versus the Jewish Hollocaust is absolutely rediculous. Thus, No comment.

 

About my community mourning my dead ... I couldn't care less if anyone mourned my death. But furthermore, yes, I do think I am less valuable (more expendable) as a human than many. However, I also think I am more valuable than some of the scum you have rotting away in the overcrowded prisions right now.

 

You again assume that by "spending money" I meant spending it on "cleaning up the mess" or "hireing merceneries" or "funding the war" where you fail to realize your basic premise as war and dying in battle as being the ultimate patriotic act is fundamentally flawed.

[Vigil]

Vigil, stop being so unpatriotic and start respecting the US flag a bit. You are a disgrace to the US and the blankets that it provides. How dare you assume that a doctor that is not going to the front lines is not going to do everything in his powers to work towards finding a cure for cancer or help his patients?

 

I never said a doctor should go to the frontlines, instead, I am telling you it is wrong for you to critisize someone else for dedicating their life to what they feel will benefit the people around them, AKA you, when you yourself would never do such a thing for them.

 

 

Ok see how stupid that sounded? Now read your post and you realize you sound the same. You wrote more than a page of "stuff" using words like "according to you logic" and "logically" and full of assumptions about me that are completely untrue.

 

I am not making "assumptions about you", when in fact you blantly have stated in previous threads that "I will not die for any country", which is the only personal comment I have made about you.

 

My analysis has never been aimed at you, but rather your logic, which is that by donating money you are actually providing a good substitute, when in fact you are not. I will eloborate a bit by using a example.

 

Lets say that one day America is invaded by a foriegn enemy. Will buying the latest and greatest military firepower be useful if people like you are not willing to use them against the enemy? No, it would not, which is what I am trying to tell because your basic point is that money solves problems, when it does not.

 

Stop preaching ...

 

When did I preach? Preaching would mean that I am telling you to do somthing, but rather I am just letting you know that the air you breath and the freedom you live under has a price. I understand and realize that eventually what you presume to be infinite actually will end. Their is only a certain amount of oil, ore, and in general resources that can be found, which is why it is important to wake up from this state of naiveness most "born again Americans" like you live in. When this day comes you as a "born again American" will have to pay back the individuals that have payed in blood for you.

 

You extending "my logic" to conclude something about Armenian genocide versus the Jewish Hollocaust is absolutely rediculous. Thus, No comment.

 

How is it rediculous? Did you not state that basically one life has more value than another? In this case I am telling that by using your logic than, just because the Armenian Genocide is not equally broadcasted, we should assume that their lives held no value.

 

About my community mourning my dead ... I couldn't care less if anyone mourned my death. But furthermore, yes, I do think I am less valuable (more expendable) as a human than many. However, I also think I am more valuable than some of the scum you have rotting away in the overcrowded prisions right now.

 

What puts you in a position to judge what life is worth saving and what is not worth saving? Are you God? Because only somone of his immense power can actually understand what a human being has gone through in his lifetime, thus, can actually see if the person was in fact a product of his envirnment.

 

Unless, you have actually lived the life of most of the individuals you call "scum" you have no right to judge if they deserve to live or not because maybe if you were in their shoes you would do far worse. However, keep in mind that I am not defending their actions, but rather am stating that nobody has a right to say what life is worth saving and what is not.

 

You again assume that by "spending money" I meant spending it on "cleaning up the mess" or "hireing merceneries" or "funding the war" where you fail to realize your basic premise as war and dying in battle as being the ultimate patriotic act is fundamentally flawed.

 

Again you are twisting my words. You stated that it if we all just donate money than the world will be a better place, but in actuallity it does little to change the underlying problems of the world. What does change the problems of the world are devoted inviduals that are willing to spend their life trying to find ways to make the world a better place, which in my example I used a doctor, but can be applyed to anyone including a soldier.

 

Last time I check a patriot was defined as "one who loves his or her country" and the most greatest act of love is sacrificing yourself for the ones you love.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Sip]

I am not making "assumptions about you", when in fact you blantly have stated in previous threads that "I will not die for any country", which is the only personal comment I have made about you.

The first part of that sentence completely contradicteds the second part of that sentence as it is just wrong. I took an oath to become a US citizen and as I stated before, I took that oath quite seriously (unlike many others that I have encountered in life). Also, there is a sharp contrast between me who took such an oat and someone who was born here and never had to pledge such allegiance.

 

What puts you in a position to judge what life is worth saving and what is not worth saving?

My intelligence.

 

Unless, you have actually lived the life of most of the individuals you call "scum" you have no right to judge if they deserve to live or not because maybe if you were in their shoes you would do far worse. However, keep in mind that I am not defending their actions, but rather am stating that nobody has a right to say what life is worth saving and what is not.

Then please explain to me why we have prisons if we are not qualified to judge who is a valuable human and who is worthless. Unless you are making a case that we shouldn't have prisons.

[Sip]

Last time I check a patriot was defined as "one who loves his or her country" and the most greatest act of love is sacrificing yourself for the ones you love.

That is wrong. Let's say you love your wife a lot. You want to buy her a PDA since she needs it for work. You can search ebay and pay $100, go to a retail store and pay $300, or be a complete dumb ass and walk into a downtown Manhattan electronics store and pay $1000 on a "good deal" for the same PDA.

 

Which one professed more "love"? It's the OUTCOME of an action that determines it's value not the cost you incurred.

 

... basically what you are telling me is that if you die in order to get your wife the PDA, it would be like the greatest act of love while any intelligent human being would say that the "greatest act of love" would be something more constructive in the long run as opposed to being extremely short sighted and just pay the "ultimate price" for very little gain.

 

Note I am not condoning soldiers. They provide a very valuable service to their country and some give their lives doing so. What I am trying to tell you however is that simply giving one's life blindly for something is NOT always automatically the right thing to do. Life is not as simple as having the "passionate extremist view" all the time. You HAVE to put some thought into your actions.

[Sip]

... state of naiveness most "born again Americans" like you live in.

What does that mean anyway? How did you arrive at this label for "me" and my like?

[Vigil]

The first part of that sentence completely contradicteds the second part of that sentence as it is just wrong.

 

No, it does not because I am not making a assumption about, instead, I am just refering back to what you said in the previous thread, which is the only personal comment I have made about you. By the way the personal comment is was not a insult nor was it aimed to be one, but rather was used to point out your flaws.

 

I took that oath quite seriously (unlike many others that I have encountered in life). Also, there is a sharp contrast between me who took such an oat and someone who was born here and never had to pledge such allegiance.

 

Do you not live and breath in this country? In the long run your family line will have to decide to either fight to preserve the previlages this country provides its citizens or migrate. Their is no "sharp contrast" because once you sign the dotted line you automatically become a "born again American" and as a "born again American" have to realize that legally you will die a American.

 

Now, do not mistake being a "born again American" as being a Armenian American. A Armenian American will die for his country, example Monte, but a "born again American" will assimilate to attain the title of a American, but will never actually do anything productive to preserve it.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Sip]

No, it does not because I am not making a assumption about, instead, I am just refering back to what you said in the previous thread, which is the only personal comment I have made about you.

Ok then there is one conclusion that can be drawn from this. Your memory is faulty.

[Vigil]

That is wrong. Let's say you love your wife a lot. You want to buy her a PDA since she needs it for work. You can search ebay and pay $100, go to a retail store and pay $300, or be a complete dumb ass and walk into a downtown Manhattan electronics store and pay $1000 on a "good deal" for the same PDA.

 

Which one professed more "love"? It's the OUTCOME of an action that determines it's value not the cost you incurred.

 

Your trying to measure intangibles by using tangible variables, which is a impossible task to do. So by your logic than I would hold the same amount of "love" for your wife if I were to buy a PDA for $150 because that is what your reducing the love and devotion to, is it not? Yes, it is, and thus, by your standards the love between you and your wife can be measured by insignificant things such as buying your wife a PDA since we both end up in the same place, right? Wrong!

 

However, the same can not be said of self sacrifice, due to the fact that once somone devotes their life to a cause their is nothing left of you to "profess" your love, thus, it becomes the defining act of truly loving somone. Are you honestly telling me that you can bring somone back from the dead by a buying a replacment son, daughter, mother, and father? NO, you can not, because even though these substitutes may perform the same ACTION they will certainly NEVER REPLACE the relationship that was established.

 

... basically what you are telling me is that if you die in order to get your wife the PDA, it would be like the greatest act of love while any intelligent human being would say that the "greatest act of love" would be something more constructive in the long run as opposed to being extremely short sighted and just pay the "ultimate price" for very little gain.

 

First of all if you were to die for a PDA your stupid, no questions about that, but if you were to die in order to protect the well being of your loved one, which I stated was the case, than that is truly the most benevolent act a human being can do for another because after you give your life what is there left to give? NOTHING because their is not way to "top death".

 

Note I am not condoning soldiers. They provide a very valuable service to their country and some give their lives doing so. What I am trying to tell you however is that simply giving one's life blindly for something is NOT always automatically the right thing to do. Life is not as simple as having the "passionate extremist view" all the time. You HAVE to put some thought into your actions.

 

By the same token I could state that you not being the individual can never state what is a blind cause and what is not because historically significant figures were also told that "you are giving up your life blindly for somthing that is not the right to do". I can use any historical figure to disprove your logic, but am going to use Monte. I am sure in the beginning his actions may have been branded illogical to people like you, but in the long run his devotion proved them wrong, did it not? Yes, it did, because to reduce any devoted course of act to just a "blind act" would mean to reduce all acts of devotion to nothing more than "blind acts", which is what you fail to realize.

 

What does that mean anyway? How did you arrive at this label for "me" and my like?

 

A "born again American" is one that just signs the dotten line, without realizing that being a citizen of a country is not just a label, but rather at some point in the future has to prove to the governing body that he is willing to give his life for the greater good of the country. What I mean by that is that he blindly thinks that by assimilating into society all his cultural problems can be ignored, but fails to realize that by doing this he has lost the entire meaning of being part of a certain ethnic group.

 

Its basically for individuals that think being a "American" amounts to assimilation and what not, but fail to realize that eventually they will betray their new found country if the "shit hits the fan" like they betrayed their original country of origin. Just because the grass seems greener on the other side of the fence does not mean you should cross over when your side is not sunny because at some point in the future the side you crossover to will also suffer a stage of decay.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Sip]

Its basically for individuals that think being a "American" amounts to assimilation and what not, but fail to realize that eventually they will betray their new found country if the "shit hits the fan" like they betrayed their original country of origin. Just because the grass seems greener on the other side of the fence does not mean you should cross over when your side is not sunny because at some point in the future the side you crossover to will also suffer a stage of decay.

Ok at this point I am going to stop to reply not because I am agreeing or disagreeing with you but more because I have no idea what you are talking about. It is as if you are talking to someone else with all these assumptions you have made about me so it really doesn't make a difference what I say or don't say.

 

It seems like before even replying to this thread, I was deemed a traitor to mother land Armenia (a place I have never seen or been to or have any real connection to) which somehow makes me a "born again American" who is only rooting for the winning team like most Lakers fans in Los Angeles. <_<

 

Ok yah I guess that just about sums it up ... yes quite "logical" indeed.